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Postby SuiteMadameBlue » Thu Oct 27, 2005 11:40 pm

No More Tails, sorry I was just being a smart ass - LOL Didn't mean to offend you, I thought most of you know me by now by my postings.

As for the STYX board, I'll be back on there in a bit. Nothing going on in the Carrot Styx world, just the same ole stuff. Dennis has a lot going on now :) Thanks :)

Anyway, does anyone KNOW that Perry demanded to be listed first on the albums?

Here's the information from the Time3 that ClassicRockLady mentioned:

DON'T STOP BELIEVIN'
(S. Perry-N. Schon)
From "Escape"
At the band's Oakland warehouse, this song bubbled out of a rehearsal. Schon developed the bass riff, the chugging guitar line and the sweeping chords on the chorus. Steve Smith built the song around a pattern featuring a lot of tom-toms, anchoring the number to a rich drum figure. Perry and Cain drew from their experiences with the Sunset Strip street scene for the lyrics, "streetlight people." A Journey songbook cornerstone, the second single from "Escape" hit #9 on the charts.


I don't see Jonathan's name on this one.

I personally think after reading article after article on this song, that Perry and Cain were the 2 main songwriters on this song. Perry writing most of the lyrics, maybe 60%.

LOL - I'll keep looking.
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Postby ohsherrie » Thu Oct 27, 2005 11:40 pm

NoMoreTails wrote:The obvious answer to the question is that Perry demanded to be listed first and they agreed to it.


You know NMT, that's not saying much for the other guys. Why would you think they would allow Steve to dictate over them that much? They don't seem to me to be the kind of guys that would be that easily bullied.
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Postby sadie65 » Thu Oct 27, 2005 11:41 pm

Everyone has the prerogative to post on any subject. How it was decided who got listed first in the credits doesn't really matter. If Steve insisted, well then he has a big ego and some insecurity issues. If not, so be it. For me, as long as the correct people are listed in the credits, placement of those credits is irrelevant. If they aren't, that's a shame.
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Postby SuiteMadameBlue » Thu Oct 27, 2005 11:46 pm

oh sherrie says:

You know NMT, that's not saying much for the other guys. Why would you think they would allow Steve to dictate over them that much? They don't seem to me to be the kind of guys that would be that easily bullied.


Oh, I didn't want to be this involved with Journey with the politics like I am with STYX

BUT.............

How could any of the "original" members of Journey "let" Perry dictate anything? I know that Perry was a member of Journey, did each member sign a contract to be equal in the band? Does anyone know how that worked?

Also, by looking at the total song lists, it "looks" like Jonathan co-wrote/wrote most of the songs.

I'm seeing Journey in Chicago in December, hopefully some of these questions will be answered :wink:
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Postby NoMoreTails » Thu Oct 27, 2005 11:48 pm

ohsherrie wrote:
NoMoreTails wrote:You know NMT, that's not saying much for the other guys. Why would you think they would allow Steve to dictate over them that much? They don't seem to me to be the kind of guys that would be that easily bullied.


I'd like to know why, but it seems to me to be the case, why did they go along with seemingly everything Perry wanted, right down to dismissing Ross and Smitty and letting Perry produce ROR. Personally, I wish they would have said no to Perry, and ditched him instead. By ROR, I think producing was Perry's condition for returning at all for another album, why else would Neal have ever agreed to it. Earlier on, I have no idea why they'd have agreed to any demands he might have made.
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Postby ohsherrie » Fri Oct 28, 2005 12:09 am

NoMoreTails wrote:
By ROR, I think producing was Perry's condition for returning at all for another album, why else would Neal have ever agreed to it. Earlier on, I have no idea why they'd have agreed to any demands he might have made.


I think you're right about the ROR thing. I just don't see them letting him make those kinds of demands back when the were writing the early stuff. I think he must have contributed substantially to the melodies and lyrics or they wouldn't have stood for his getting top billing on the songwriting credits. He may not have done the most work on all the songs they list his name first on, I have no explanation for that. I think they all did their part of the writing focusing on their individual strengths and produced some fabulous sounds.
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Postby jrnyman28 » Fri Oct 28, 2005 2:33 am

Perry started asserting control very early on. Neal chose Perry over Aynsley, he chose Perry over Gregg, he chose Perry over Smitty and Ross! It is a long history.

But for the songwriting thing, I can imagine a rather innocuous scenario like Perry suggesting that since he is singing the song, his name should be first. Nobody probably gave it much thought. And, at the time, I am sure everyone felt like part of the band (oh wait, I shoudl say everyone felt like a team since we know Perry didn't feel like part of the band) so nobody gave it much concern.
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Postby Monker » Fri Oct 28, 2005 3:45 am

OMG, does it really matter? Seriously? Maybe they flipped a coin from song to song or album to album on who was listed first.


Perry fans have made it an issue for over ten years. On the Journey digest, somebody actually posted every writing credit from Infinity on, the order of the credits, and calculated the percentages of how many songs Perry was a writer on, and what percent he was listed first....all done in an effort to 'prove' that Perry was Journey's main songwriter.

I have argued for years, and years, and years about this topic. Some people simply refuse to believe that the order means NOTHING. It's band politics that dictate the order. That's the bottom line. Why is Perry first? I guess he was the best at the politics. Or, maybe the others felt it was more important to release the music then argue about the order of the credits and maybe not even release the song because of some silly conflict.

As for Perry gaining power in the band...Geez, read Herbie's article. Perry wrestled with their manager to gain power. When Herbie expected the band to back him up, they backed Perry instead. Herbie actualy wanted Journey to end when Gregg Rolie left because he brought a lot of history and respect that the others looked to, and it counter ballanced Perry. When Gregg left, Herbie said he felt like, "what's the point?" Journey went from a band that cared most about the music to a band where the lead singer was dictating the album covers, producing album, and even who should be in the band...things that were always left up to Herbie prior to 1983 and the Frontiers album. By the time ROR came about, IMO, Herbie mostly let go of Journey and let Perry have it...you don't see Herbie saying, "It's better then sex" on the ROR doc, as he did on the Frontiers doc, do you? Herbie is no where to be found, and Perry did it all...he stole the keys to the band from Herbie, and the band let him do it...and has suffered for it to this very day.
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Postby heardonthestreet » Fri Oct 28, 2005 3:52 am

Monker wrote:
OMG, does it really matter? Seriously? Maybe they flipped a coin from song to song or album to album on who was listed first.


Perry fans have made it an issue for over ten years. On the Journey digest, somebody actually posted every writing credit from Infinity on, the order of the credits, and calculated the percentages of how many songs Perry was a writer on, and what percent he was listed first....all done in an effort to 'prove' that Perry was Journey's main songwriter.

I have argued for years, and years, and years about this topic. Some people simply refuse to believe that the order means NOTHING. It's band politics that dictate the order. That's the bottom line. Why is Perry first? I guess he was the best at the politics. Or, maybe the others felt it was more important to release the music then argue about the order of the credits and maybe not even release the song because of some silly conflict.

As for Perry gaining power in the band...Geez, read Herbie's article. Perry wrestled with their manager to gain power. When Herbie expected the band to back him up, they backed Perry instead. Herbie actualy wanted Journey to end when Gregg Rolie left because he brought a lot of history and respect that the others looked to, and it counter ballanced Perry. When Gregg left, Herbie said he felt like, "what's the point?" Journey went from a band that cared most about the music to a band where the lead singer was dictating the album covers, producing album, and even who should be in the band...things that were always left up to Herbie prior to 1983 and the Frontiers album. By the time ROR came about, IMO, Herbie mostly let go of Journey and let Perry have it...you don't see Herbie saying, "It's better then sex" on the ROR doc, as he did on the Frontiers doc, do you? Herbie is no where to be found, and Perry did it all...he stole the keys to the band from Herbie, and the band let him do it...and has suffered for it to this very day.


.....................................

The band may be suffering but Classic Journey, The Steve Perry Years, is alive and kicking ass.
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Postby ohsherrie » Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:04 am

heardonthestreet wrote:

Classic Journey, The Steve Perry Years, is alive and kicking ass.


You've got a point there HOTS. There does seem to be a sort of Classic Journey music revival going on.
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Postby Monker » Fri Oct 28, 2005 5:47 am

The band may be suffering but Classic Journey, The Steve Perry Years, is alive and kicking ass.


Oh, please. That is not even what I was talking about. You are comparing apples and oranges.

It was Perry wrestling control from Herbie that caused him to have complete control slightly before, during, and after ROR. It caused the firing of Smith and Valory. It caused the ten year absence. It caused the wonderful reunion tour for TBF. It caused the stone to be 'cracked' for Journey to even continue on after TBF.

Perhaps you forget that "Don't Stop Believin'" was recorded on Escape BEFORE Perry had the keys to Journey...while it was still a slick machine under Herbie's guidance?

Isn't it ironic during this Journey 'resurgence' that it is not Perry's favorite album (ROR) nor the reunion album that is earning attention...the two most heavily Perry influenced albums. I don't see any baseball team playing "Be Good to Yourself" or "Message of Love" in the clubhouse and being thrilled by it. I doubt that will ever happen because that is AFTER Perry took the keys from Herbie.
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Postby heardonthestreet » Fri Oct 28, 2005 6:18 am

Monker, quit your damn whining, once and for all. I wish that I had a nickle for all the times that you have belabored these issues. If you have to live in the past, write a book. :(
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Postby NealIsGod » Fri Oct 28, 2005 6:24 am

heardonthestreet wrote:Monker, quit your damn whining, once and for all. I wish that I had a nickle for all the times that you have belabored these issues. If you have to live in the past, write a book. :(


HE lives in the past? Listen to yourself. You are trying to relive the '80's through this silly baseball thing. All Perry fans HAVE is the past, which is why such a minor thing excites you all so much. Sorry so harsh... :oops:
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Postby yak » Fri Oct 28, 2005 6:31 am

heardonthestreet wrote:If you have to live in the past, write a book. :(


Now ain't that some strange comment out of you, hottsie? :lol:

Write a book? :lol: :lol:


HE lives in the past? Listen to yourself. You are trying to relive the '80's through this silly baseball thing. All Perry fans HAVE is the past, which is why such a minor thing excites you all so much.


Was right there with 'ya till you appologized! What was that for? Hurting their feelings? They have no feelings.
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Postby heardonthestreet » Fri Oct 28, 2005 6:36 am

Nig! Grow up! Your nose has been so out of joint about Perry's latest HONORS. He's living the present as am I, watching him do so. Eat your heart out!
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Postby NealIsGod » Fri Oct 28, 2005 6:39 am

heardonthestreet wrote:Nig! Grow up! Your nose has been so out of joint about Perry's latest HONORS. He's living the present as am I, watching him do so. Eat your heart out!


My nose is fine, can't say the same for your boy, Perry! I said I was happy for him. I am talking about YOU... You probably still have big hair and drive a TransAm!
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Postby heardonthestreet » Fri Oct 28, 2005 6:42 am

yak wrote:
heardonthestreet wrote:If you have to live in the past, write a book. :(


Now ain't that some strange comment out of you, hottsie? :lol:

Write a book? :lol: :lol:


HE lives in the past? Listen to yourself. You are trying to relive the '80's through this silly baseball thing. All Perry fans HAVE is the past, which is why such a minor thing excites you all so much.


Was right there with 'ya till you appologized! What was that for? Hurting their feelings? They have no feelings.



...........................................

Enjoy the new "Steve Perry Years" dvd coming out in a few weeks guys. Relive the glory years.
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Postby ohsherrie » Fri Oct 28, 2005 7:15 am

Monker, do you work at being such a curmudgeon or does it come natural to you? :D

We all know the history of what happened with ROR. Even though some of us like the resulting album, none of us ever said we liked what happened with Ross and Smitty. I just find it hard to believe those other guys rolled over and played dead while Steve singlehandedly did all these dastardly things you think he did to them and the band. If they thought he was so wrong, why didn't they do something about it? He's not a Svengali, you know? He didn't mesmerize the guys into doing his bidding. If Jon and Neal sided with Steve against Herbie they must have had some reasons for doing so. They're not puppets. Nothing, when dealing with human beings, is ever as black and white as the pictures some people try to paint. I know Steve had some control issues and some temper tantrums, but I also know the others aren't innocent lambs who allowed themselves to fall victim to some devious plot of his.
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Postby yak » Fri Oct 28, 2005 7:31 am

ohsherrie wrote: I just find it hard to believe those other guys rolled over and played dead while Steve singlehandedly did all these dastardly things you think he did to them and the band. If they thought he was so wrong, why didn't they do something about it?

So now you're blaming the Jon and Neal for what Perry did? :roll:

The blind only see what they want to see. Maybe Perry pulled one of his hardline tactics and gave them no choice. Just like with the hip gag order.

He's not a Svengali, you know?


No he's not.

He didn't mesmerize the guys into doing his bidding.


The only ones he's mesmerized are you and your gal pals.

Nothing, when dealing with human beings, is ever as black and white as the pictures some people try to paint.


Kind of like that photograph at the ball game, eh?

The spin stops here, ohsherrie. Having fun holding court these days?
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Postby jrnyman28 » Fri Oct 28, 2005 10:33 am

yak wrote:
ohsherrie wrote: I just find it hard to believe those other guys rolled over and played dead while Steve singlehandedly did all these dastardly things you think he did to them and the band. If they thought he was so wrong, why didn't they do something about it?


So now you're blaming the Jon and Neal for what Perry did? :roll:


If she is not, I am. I know Perry did a lot of wrong, but it really is every bit as bad that Neal and Jon somehow allowed it to happen. I think the problem is Perry probably had a way of making things look like they make sense. He wanted Herbie out. I am pretty sure he approached it as "Look what Azoff has done for the Eagles...he is the right man for 'this' job.'" And the guys must have bought it. Like HH said, Neal ain't the sharpest tool in the shed. He just wants to make and play music. Perry may have strongarmed his point, but at the end of the day Neal and Jon agreed. Same during ROR. At some point, Neal and Jon (I know how easy it was for Jon, this was his and Perry's baby) must have said "Oh, we get it now. That makes sense."
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Postby yak » Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:13 am

jrnyman28 wrote:I think the problem is Perry probably had a way of making things look like they make sense.


You mean like the deceitful attorney who lures you into a class action suit, only to take 90% of the settlement?

Careful, Dave. With all you profess to know about why band members did certain things, some might think you have a real inroad to the band on an everyday basis. :roll: You've been played and don't even know it.
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Postby ohsherrie » Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:16 am

That's sort of what I meant Dave. I don't think I would have said it exactly the way you did, but the message is the same. They were a band with equal say in what happened. Steve could have been voted down if that was really what they wanted. We all have to face the fact that they all made mistakes and I'm sure they all regret some of them now.
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Postby Greg » Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:47 am

I have tried writing about this for the last hour and wind up feeling like I was rambling along. So, let me try to summarize myself the best I can.

Both Herbie and Perry believe their side of the story is completely true. Who are we to say they're not? Perry probably didn't think he was a part of the band. Neal and the others didn't welcome him with open arms apparently. But, it's funny how success helps bring people together huh?

Herbie felt this was HIS band. He wanted to have all the albums named and complete with artwork before they were even started. HE worked to make the band successful, HE this and HE that! He wanted to have the final say of when Journey started and stopped. Most bands starting off probably don't have alot of room to say, "hey let us have more control over our destiny," but how many bands continue to subject themselves to being slaves of the system after they have reaped the benefits of the success?

If anything, the band should have taken Perry's lead and been more hands on with control of the band. That doesn't mean I feel like they should have dumped Herbert long before his time, but I think Herbie should have allowed the players of the band to feel like they were a part of the decision making. As much as I think Perry overstepped his boundaries on the control thing - and I believe he did it in abundance - at least he was sending the message that performers shouldn't be slaves to the system. Of course, that doesn't mean the other performers should have been slaves to Perry.

One thing I question is: if Perry's THAT much of a vindictive person, why is it that through all the "troubles" the band has apparently had with him, that they still hold an open invitation for him to come back to the band? While some might argue that isn't completely accurate, well by saying, "hey you can come on stage with us and sing a few songs...." sorry but that's an open invitation. Truth is, the band knows that with Perry they are commerical successes again. Maybe not near as successful as the 80's version, but successful nevertheless. But certainly, the invitation is conditional and rightfully so.

We all need to admit to a few things. First of all, Perry was probably irreplaceable after hearing the first few notes out of his mouth on his first album with Journey. I know of nobody else from that era that would have made us forget about Steve Perry's ties with Journey. Therefore, it's wrong to think that Journey would have been Journey after Frontiers if the frontman was gone. Secondly, this current version of Journey is a great, great band! It's that way for a few reasons.

First of all, there is no way whatsoever that Augeri nor Deen C will question Neal Schon or Jon Cain. Everyone in that band feels greatful to have the chance to continue the Journey. Secondly on that point - the songs are solid quality songs! The only beef that strict Perry fans have against the songs is the fact that Perry isn't singing them. Other than that - the songs rock! Thirdly, much of the band has already found success and made their riches from it. It is a shame that some of the bandmates feel into the trap of drugs, alcohol, or divorce...but they have nobody to blame but themselves for that.

Lastly, Herbie helped build the empire of Journey, but Journey showed success without Herbert. Maybe those projects (ROR and TBF) could have been better - but they were still successful - and any classic 80's band that is able to have success in the 90's grunge and alternative movement is a band that accomplishes much!

Some will say they were fans of Journey before Steve Perry and that is fine - but you were fans of two different bands, two different styles of music. The Pre-Perry stuff would have faded much faster because it was not commerically sound. The fact is, Journey's bulk of success came because of Steve Perry, Neal Schon, Jon Cain, Ross Valory, Steve Smith, Gregg Rollie, and Herbie Herbert - not in any order of significants! And yes, it is a contradiction to say that the whole band was successful and not because of one person, but yet that isn't completely true. No matter how much we will deny it, 9 times out of 10 - the frontman or front woman gives the band identity.

That isn't necessarily a praise of Steve Perry per se, but just the facts of the business. If not - there would have been no need to find another singer who could cover the old stuff. Luckily for Journey, they found a great singer who has now been able to put his own style to this band and although I feel this is yet a different band from the 80's version -it's a great band with Augeri singing.

But, if you deny the importance of the frontman - why is it that Foreigner hires a Lou Gramm "clone?"
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Postby ohsherrie » Fri Oct 28, 2005 12:23 pm

Great post Greggie. Your time of angst over it was well spent. Good Job! :D
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Postby NoMoreTails » Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:32 pm

Greggie wrote:... but I think Herbie should have allowed the players of the band to feel like they were a part of the decision making.


If they had done this, Perry wouldn't have been in the band in the first place.

On the open invitation to Perry, I believe this is nothing more than PR, an attempt to make it known that it's himself who has kept Perry out of the band.
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Postby NealIsGod » Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:35 pm

NoMoreTails wrote:
Greggie wrote:... but I think Herbie should have allowed the players of the band to feel like they were a part of the decision making.


If they had done this, Perry wouldn't have been in the band in the first place.


Tru 'dat! :)
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Postby heardonthestreet » Sat Oct 29, 2005 12:52 am

NealIsGod wrote:
NoMoreTails wrote:
Greggie wrote:... but I think Herbie should have allowed the players of the band to feel like they were a part of the decision making.


If they had done this, Perry wouldn't have been in the band in the first place.


Tru 'dat! :)



...............................................

But they DID, he WAS and he brought Journey all their success. Not my words, Neals. :wink: Without him, they are back to what they were, or less without Rolie.
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Postby NoMoreTails » Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:10 am

heardonthestreet wrote:
NealIsGod wrote:
NoMoreTails wrote:
Greggie wrote:... but I think Herbie should have allowed the players of the band to feel like they were a part of the decision making.


If they had done this, Perry wouldn't have been in the band in the first place.


Tru 'dat! :)



...............................................
But they DID, he WAS and he brought Journey all their success. Not my words, Neals. :wink: Without him, they are back to what they were, or less without Rolie.


My point here, since you didn't get it--no surprise--was just to point out that this was one of the decisions Herbie made and forced the band to accept, not that it was the wrong decision. NIG and I were not necessarily disagreeing wth Greggie, merely stating that one of the decisions Herbie rammed down their throats was hiring Perry in the first place. Merely trying to point out that most of Herbie's decisions were good for the band.
On the other hand most of Perry's were bad. And when the band didn't listen to Herbie, that's where they really screwed up, giving Perry too much control.
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Postby NealIsGod » Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:34 am

NoMoreTails wrote:My point here, since you didn't get it--no surprise--was just to point out that this was one of the decisions Herbie made and forced the band to accept, not that it was the wrong decision. NIG and I were not necessarily disagreeing wth Greggie, merely stating that one of the decisions Herbie rammed down their throats was hiring Perry in the first place. Merely trying to point out that most of Herbie's decisions were good for the band.
On the other hand most of Perry's were bad. And when the band didn't listen to Herbie, that's where they really screwed up, giving Perry too much control.


Yeah, if Herbie was in charge, Journey would still be recording music and touring today.

Hey, waitaminnit, THEY ARE! Somebody just got too big for their britches...
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Postby heardonthestreet » Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:56 am

Without control, you have chaos, which is the problem with Journey at this time. Their latest c.d. is a perfect example of this. Oh wait! The guys are just having fun. Right.
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