Journey's Silver Bullet

[ohsherrie]

You can't expect a band to just do the same thing over and over. If all JOURNEY did was rock, we'd have another AC/DC. AC/DC is great, and it is what it is (I love to listen to them every now and then), but JOURNEY I can listen to WHENEVER because they didn't record the same song over and over. I for one like the ballads. I believe that OA is a phenomenal song. It is beautiful, and listening to it makes me forget the piece of shit world we live in. The writing, the vocal, the performances... it is a gem... a classic up there with the best of anything from ANY band... right up there with HEY JUDE, STAIRWAY TO HEAVEN, LAYLA, and anything else you can come up with.

I mean, so what if Perry wanted to move in a pop direction. We all know that NEAL always wants to rock hard. What made JOURNEY a good band was that interplay between what those two wanted. That dichotomy resulted in perfect albums like ESCAPE and FRONTIERS, where you have the hard and the soft coming together. Think about the arguing that must have gone on, and then think about other collaborators like Tyler/Perry, Van Halen / Roth, and Mercury/May, and what was produced. All of those folks probably had the same fights over the music, and look at the genius all of those have produced. Same thing with the genius of JOURNEY.

Great post Fernando. You said it all.

[NealIsGod]

ESC4P3 and Frontiers are perfect to Fernando, but band-killing crap to Cubby. Interesting...

[Rockindeano]

ESC4P3 and Frontiers are perfect to Fernando, but band-killing crap to Cubby. Interesting...

I take it you were watching Football...Now the best game of the day is on, and you're on here? WTF?

[NealIsGod]

ESC4P3 and Frontiers are perfect to Fernando, but band-killing crap to Cubby. Interesting...

I take it you were watching Football...Now the best game of the day is on, and you're on here? WTF?

Seahawks should have lost that game THREE times! Lucky bastards!

[Rockindeano]

ESC4P3 and Frontiers are perfect to Fernando, but band-killing crap to Cubby. Interesting...

I take it you were watching Football...Now the best game of the day is on, and you're on here? WTF?

Seahawks should have lost that game THREE times! Lucky bastards!

Tisk tisk...There is no "should haves" in sports.

Tell your Michigan kicker to learn his craft. On second thought, he is prolly out of a job anyway.

Screw NY, and all of it's teams.

[Fernando Ramirez]

Your opinion. I think Escape and Frontiers along with ROR was Journey's lowest point. You can talk all you want about 'commercial success' until you are blue in the face and I give a could give a shit less. I'd rather have a Journey that was true to itself instead of the '80's sell out crap that we have to enjoy.

Dude, I promised to listen to the old stuff to you, I believe, but haven't been able to find the cds locally. I still intend to hear the old stuff based on your recommendation. I just couldnt bring myself to buying the $60 box set, just for the early stuff it has.

But what you're saying is a Journey that's true to YOU. Do you honestly mean that you wish they would have continued to sound the same way they did 30 years ago? We sure as hell wouldn't be discussing them now, here on this website, and you sure as hell wouldn't have the early CDs (they wouldn't have been PUT on CD and would have lapsed into out of print status) if they had continued on their prog direction.

[Fernando Ramirez]

Great post Fernando. You said it all.

Thanks, ohsherrie!

[jrnyman28]

But what you're saying is a Journey that's true to YOU. Do you honestly mean that you wish they would have continued to sound the same way they did 30 years ago? We sure as hell wouldn't be discussing them now, here on this website, and you sure as hell wouldn't have the early CDs (they wouldn't have been PUT on CD and would have lapsed into out of print status) if they had continued on their prog direction.

Dude, Journey was evolving through the first 3 CDs. You can hear big changes between Journey and Look Into The Future. In fact, there is not that big a jump from LITF to Infinity. There were, in ways, bigger changes between Departure and Escape then between LITF and Infinity. Journey would continue evolving no matter what.

[NealIsGod]

Dude, Journey was evolving through the first 3 CDs.

And they continued evolving through the Perry years, and now they have fully evolved.

[cubby69]

Your opinion. I think Escape and Frontiers along with ROR was Journey's lowest point. You can talk all you want about 'commercial success' until you are blue in the face and I give a could give a shit less. I'd rather have a Journey that was true to itself instead of the '80's sell out crap that we have to enjoy.

Dude, I promised to listen to the old stuff to you, I believe, but haven't been able to find the cds locally. I still intend to hear the old stuff based on your recommendation. I just couldnt bring myself to buying the $60 box set, just for the early stuff it has.

But what you're saying is a Journey that's true to YOU. Do you honestly mean that you wish they would have continued to sound the same way they did 30 years ago? We sure as hell wouldn't be discussing them now, here on this website, and you sure as hell wouldn't have the early CDs (they wouldn't have been PUT on CD and would have lapsed into out of print status) if they had continued on their prog direction.

I'm not saying that I would never have wanted Journey to change. What I'm saying is they 'purposely' started writing hit driven pop songs with the addition of Cain. Before that they were just making the music they wanted to make. PERIOD.

Now what I will do for you is make a copy of all three of the pre-Perry cd's and send them to you no charge. You can listen for yourself without paying a dime and let me know. PM your address and I'll get those out to you this week.

[heardonthestreet]

Your opinion. I think Escape and Frontiers along with ROR was Journey's lowest point. You can talk all you want about 'commercial success' until you are blue in the face and I give a could give a shit less. I'd rather have a Journey that was true to itself instead of the '80's sell out crap that we have to enjoy.

Dude, I promised to listen to the old stuff to you, I believe, but haven't been able to find the cds locally. I still intend to hear the old stuff based on your recommendation. I just couldnt bring myself to buying the $60 box set, just for the early stuff it has.

But what you're saying is a Journey that's true to YOU. Do you honestly mean that you wish they would have continued to sound the same way they did 30 years ago? We sure as hell wouldn't be discussing them now, here on this website, and you sure as hell wouldn't have the early CDs (they wouldn't have been PUT on CD and would have lapsed into out of print status) if they had continued on their prog direction.

I'm not saying that I would never have wanted Journey to change. What I'm saying is they 'purposely' started writing hit driven pop songs with the addition of Cain. Before that they were just making the music they wanted to make. PERIOD.

Now what I will do for you is make a copy of all three of the pre-Perry cd's and send them to you no charge. You can listen for yourself without paying a dime and let me know. PM your address and I'll get those out to you this week.

............................................
The songs on their early recordings are quite nice but the jamming ruined them, imo. Neal even stated once that he couldn't believe how bad they sounded. "In The Morning Day" is very nice until after the vocals. The music becomes too undisciplined, imo.

[Fernando Ramirez]

Dude, Journey was evolving through the first 3 CDs. You can hear big changes between Journey and Look Into The Future. In fact, there is not that big a jump from LITF to Infinity. There were, in ways, bigger changes between Departure and Escape then between LITF and Infinity. Journey would continue evolving no matter what.

Talking to you 28, and Cubby, I'm beginning to realize that I could be wrong.

See, I was always under the impression that they exclusively did instrumental progressive jamming music for those first three albums. I just couldnt see instrumental progressive jamming music on the Billboard Top 100. That's why I said what I said before. But the best thing is for me to listen to this early stuff, and thankfully, Cubby is going to send me a cool package.

[Fernando Ramirez]

I'm not saying that I would never have wanted Journey to change. What I'm saying is they 'purposely' started writing hit driven pop songs with the addition of Cain. Before that they were just making the music they wanted to make. PERIOD.

Now what I will do for you is make a copy of all three of the pre-Perry cd's and send them to you no charge. You can listen for yourself without paying a dime and let me know. PM your address and I'll get those out to you this week.

Cubby, thanks for your kind offer. I am really looking forward to listening to this stuff, especially since you hold it in such high regard.

But I'm not sure about your statement above. I mean, my JOURNEY collection starts with INFINITY. They were already writing hit driven pop songs before Cain joined the picture. Did you mean to say when Perry joined the band?

[Jeremey]

Most may not agree with me, but Open Arms just confirms my belief that it was Jonathan Cain who steered the band down the slippery slope of chicklike candy goodness. If Perry deservedly gets saddled with dismantling the band one step at a time from 1983 onward, then surely Cain deserves credit for turning one of the most immensely powerful rock bands of the late '70s into a high school prom cliche.

[cubby69]

Most may not agree with me, but Open Arms just confirms my belief that it was Jonathan Cain who steered the band down the slippery slope of chicklike candy goodness. If Perry deservedly gets saddled with dismantling the band one step at a time from 1983 onward, then surely Cain deserves credit for turning one of the most immensely powerful rock bands of the late '70s into a high school prom cliche.

Couldn't agree with you more. Great post!

[cubby69]

I'm not saying that I would never have wanted Journey to change. What I'm saying is they 'purposely' started writing hit driven pop songs with the addition of Cain. Before that they were just making the music they wanted to make. PERIOD.

Now what I will do for you is make a copy of all three of the pre-Perry cd's and send them to you no charge. You can listen for yourself without paying a dime and let me know. PM your address and I'll get those out to you this week.

But I'm not sure about your statement above. I mean, my JOURNEY collection starts with INFINITY. They were already writing hit driven pop songs before Cain joined the picture. Did you mean to say when Perry joined the band?

No I don't neccesarily agree with that at all. Yes when they added Perry they did change somewhat. But remember, Infinity was already half written before Perry even walked in the door. IMHO, there was much more of a change between Departure to Escape than there ever was between Next to Infinity. There are several songs on Next that are very similar to songs they wrote over the next three years. When Cain joined Perry had an ally finally that wanted to go out of their way to write hit songs. They had never done that before. Yes, some of the songs were hits, but they didn't sit down and say, we need to start hit making pop songs until after Cain. But then again, maybe thats just me...

[NealIsGod]

I don't know who to blame. All I know is the band is fucking AWESOME now.

[Red13JoePa]

...and without the smash singles of ESC4P3 and Frontiers we would not have Generations now. The band likely would've ceased to exist.

[NealIsGod]

...and without the smash singles of ESC4P3 and Frontiers we would not have Generations now. The band likely would've ceased to exist.

Good point.

[jrnyman28]

I'm not saying that I would never have wanted Journey to change. What I'm saying is they 'purposely' started writing hit driven pop songs with the addition of Cain. Before that they were just making the music they wanted to make. PERIOD.

Now what I will do for you is make a copy of all three of the pre-Perry cd's and send them to you no charge. You can listen for yourself without paying a dime and let me know. PM your address and I'll get those out to you this week.

Cubby, thanks for your kind offer. I am really looking forward to listening to this stuff, especially since you hold it in such high regard.

But I'm not sure about your statement above. I mean, my JOURNEY collection starts with INFINITY. They were already writing hit driven pop songs before Cain joined the picture. Did you mean to say when Perry joined the band?

I disagree that they were hit driven pop with those 1st 3 Perry CDs. I think there was just a connection at that point. I agree with Cubby that Cain created the "pop" songs of Journey. That is when those songs became 'intentional' because Journey knew they would sell. Jon knew how to write a hit...

[jrnyman28]

Most may not agree with me, but Open Arms just confirms my belief that it was Jonathan Cain who steered the band down the slippery slope of chicklike candy goodness. If Perry deservedly gets saddled with dismantling the band one step at a time from 1983 onward, then surely Cain deserves credit for turning one of the most immensely powerful rock bands of the late '70s into a high school prom cliche.

Exactly!

[Abitaman]

I don't know who to blame. All I know is the band is f**king AWESOME now.

GOT THAT RIGHT-ERIC

[NealIsGod]

Thanks for censoring me, Eric!

[PROPERRY]

Most may not agree with me, but Open Arms just confirms my belief that it was Jonathan Cain who steered the band down the slippery slope of chicklike candy goodness. If Perry deservedly gets saddled with dismantling the band one step at a time from 1983 onward, then surely Cain deserves credit for turning one of the most immensely powerful rock bands of the late '70s into a high school prom cliche.

Personally I love the ballads! I see that as a "good thing" that Journey was very versatel in their abilities to play a "variety of music" & do it VERY, VERY good too!

Now as for some that blame soley Perry for the dismantling of the band, that is really unfair.

I don't believe that either Perry or Jon dismantled the band by writing all thoses beautiful ballads such "Faithfully" Or "Open Arms" to name just a few, but if some here feel that these ballads contributed to the band eventually going seperate ways, then I would agree with you that they certainly coudn't just hold Perry soley accountable.

Lori

[jrnyman28]

Most may not agree with me, but Open Arms just confirms my belief that it was Jonathan Cain who steered the band down the slippery slope of chicklike candy goodness. If Perry deservedly gets saddled with dismantling the band one step at a time from 1983 onward, then surely Cain deserves credit for turning one of the most immensely powerful rock bands of the late '70s into a high school prom cliche.

Personally I love the ballads! I see that as a "good thing" that Journey was very versatel in their abilities to play a "variety of music" & do it VERY, VERY good too!

Now as for some that blame soley Perry for the dismantling of the band, that is really unfair.

I don't believe that either Perry or Jon dismantled the band by writing all thoses beautiful ballads such "Faithfully" Or "Open Arms" to name just a few, but if some here feel that these ballads contributed to the band eventually going seperate ways, then I would agree with you that they certainly coudn't just hold Perry soley accountable.

Lori

It is not about ballads, it is about A) getting labeled a ballad band. Open Arms did that. B) Jon's songwriting sensibilities led to very structured, "pop" rock songs. With his talents they found 'the formula' to write "hits". That formula, in many ways, killed the creativity of the band leading to ROR.

And no one said it was solely Perry or Jon (here) that 'dismantled' the band. But Jon was a major contributor to the change in direction of the band which not only led to their success, but their demise. I have often said that Jon was the catalyst to the commercial success that Journey enjoyed, moreso than Perry. By the same token, that commercial success (and therefore Jon) was the catalyst to the demise of Journey.

Finally, YES, the ballads showed a versatility to Journey. But Journey had always had slow songs. If you want versatility then look no further than Infinity, Evolution and Departure. But the other slow songs were never called 'power ballads' or even ballads really. That did not happen until Open Arms and the noticeable change in writing style brought by Jon.

[Jeremey]

I should mention that the Jonathan Cain/Steve Perry era of the band led to the most brilliant songs of the band's career. Give me one Open Arms, a tolerable if sugary ballad, in exchange for an Escape, Mother Father, Don't Stop Believin', the list goes on and on....

I agree, Cain's songwriting brought the band to a totally different level. But I stand by my statement that he is responsible for girly appeal of the band.

[A Fire Inside]

#1 song or not, it is the song that killed what I had grown and loved about this band.

It was actually #3... Journey's never had a #1 hit.

The girlie label is everyone's fault. Jon for writing it, Perry for staunchly supporting it, and everyone else for shrugging and playing it anyway.

I think Frontiers and Escape were a good mix of soft and hard music, though. It's after those albums that the band really started bringing in the AC songs.

[ohsherrie]

It was Open Arms, followed by Faithfully, that made Journey the creators of the "rock ballad". Whether that's an albatross or not depends on what you like. I think it helped set Journey apart from the pack. They were great songs that a lot of people still love to hear.

It's interesting that Jon has been credited with being the success of the band in previous threads, then condemned in this one for the same reason.

[Greg]

Anyway every metal and hard rock band have had a love ballad.

What love ballad did Metallica or Iron Maiden ever play?

[Marabelle]

however you label those songs; they were still great song