The way it is

[barneyrubble]

It's like this.....

Most bands who record highly polished, complex, melodic music use sequenced parts live. That is a fact.

Def Leppard's vocal sequences famously screwed up during the Freddie Mercury tribute gig during Let's Get Rocked and the chorus backing came in out of time.

Rush have sequenced keyboard and bass parts and have used them since 1980 as Geddy Lee and Alex Lifeson weren't able to grow more limbs.

The 'taps' during Riverdance are backed up by sequencers.

Journey use sequencers during some songs particularly during choruses because it is normal, in no way is it a scandal because it is done throughout live music and has been the case for years. If a drummer plays to a 'click track' and the band takes a cue to start a song along with that 'click' then it isn't hard to fly in extra parts off of hard disc. The idea is that the audience get a better performance closer to the record and we all go home happy.

All this bullshit about comparing waveforms is simple. Play the songs at exact tempo to the record because the band uses a click and 99% of the time a professional band will be on the money instrumentally and vocally throughout the song unless they jam or adlib a little. I've recorded vocal takes many times in studios (as an engineer not an artist) and had to edit parts from maybe 10 takes of a part of a song by comparing waveforms on a pc screen to 'cut' together the best performance. Sometimes down to part of a syllable from 3 tracks to form one word. The waveforms are so similar that a cut is pretty easy. You'd expect Steve Augeri to produce a waveform similar to 'Generations' from a live bootleg because he is singing the same song at the same tempo for the xxx'th time. Anyone would.

Pneumonia? Anyone had it? Steve Augeri has. Earlier this year and so have I. Any idea how long it takes to fully recover your ability to breathe properly afterwards? After 6 months you begin to get the feeling that you are getting there even with a mild infection as I had in my early 30's.

If I could sing and hit the stage within the first 6 months of recovery I might tail off on the high notes especially during a set of Journey material.

I was in the front few rows at Edinburgh, Manchester and Milton Keynes and yes Steve Augeri didn't nail every vocal. Sometimes he cracked a bit which isn't surprising. As a professional sound engineer for 20+ years I spot things. Hear keyboard parts when the keyboard player is holding guitar or notice 4 part harmonies when only 3 people are on the mic. But it isn't a con, it's part of performing, smoke and mirrors and all that.

Steve Augeri didn't have any guide vocals. When he choked a bit he pulled the mic back and did the best he could, much better than just about any vocalist around today. He has a band around him who produce amazing backing vocals and a drummer who can outsing the majority of singers around today. They probably do 'fly in' some sample harmonies plus the odd bit of keyboards... I play guitar in a wedding band and we do it too!

Cut all this crap and take a reality check. Bands use technology, get over it. If you want it raw then go see Ted Nugent as a 3 piece (really f**kin good actually) or go to your local pub or bar on jam night. If you want to hear Journey and Def Leppard sound full and fantastic then buy a ticket and enjoy.

[AR]

If you want it raw then go see Ted Nugent as a 3 piece (really f**kin good actually)

Friday night at Rams Head Live in Baltimore. Can't wait to go see Uncle Ted!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Rockindeano]

Um, how do I say this?

Barney, before you come here with a pinpointed matter of fact statement, do your homework first.

1- Steve Augeri either did or didn't have pneumonia. I find this excuse rather odd. See, they canceled Chile, a televised show, because Steve had "pnuemonia." However, in just 7 days, the band miraculously performed Hawaii for a private show. Want to bet Augeri was dead on that night?

2- Your defense about having pnuemonia and all, falls short of any valid argument. See, the second week of LAST years' tour is when they went to tape full time. I say this because I have the Oakland, CA benefit show shot in February, and he is so bad, I couldn't even watch straight through without turning my head and cringing. It was embarrassing to say the least. Fast forward to June 24th, 2005, opening night, Irvine, CA. I was there. He stunk up the joint. People walked out. The next five or six shows were the same. Finally they said, enough is enough, and miraculously, he sounds awesome all the time now! Gee, go figure, but "he is NOT lipping" right? Right. keep telling yourself this.

This is getting down to corner time folks. The other side is running out of spin, because so much of it has already been proven and beaten down. Looks like what they are running on now is jailing all of us believers for illegal recordings.

My opinion is there is no cure for what he has. I am sad to say he is done. This is definetely his last tour, unless they find another boot from which to thieve off, and I doubt they can, because Elson is out on the road behind the curtain orchestrating the choregraphy. With him so busy, maybe Spank or Fraser can do something about it...Either that or let him go live and if that happens you will continue to see awful reviews. Last night they played to a half empty house and people are all saying he looked "under the weather" had an "illness" whatever.

[Journey/Survivor]

It's like this.....

Most bands who record highly polished, complex, melodic music use sequenced parts live. That is a fact.

Def Leppard's vocal sequences famously screwed up during the Freddie Mercury tribute gig during Let's Get Rocked and the chorus backing came in out of time.

Rush have sequenced keyboard and bass parts and have used them since 1980 as Geddy Lee and Alex Lifeson weren't able to grow more limbs.

The 'taps' during Riverdance are backed up by sequencers.

Journey use sequencers during some songs particularly during choruses because it is normal, in no way is it a scandal because it is done throughout live music and has been the case for years. If a drummer plays to a 'click track' and the band takes a cue to start a song along with that 'click' then it isn't hard to fly in extra parts off of hard disc. The idea is that the audience get a better performance closer to the record and we all go home happy.

All this bullshit about comparing waveforms is simple. Play the songs at exact tempo to the record because the band uses a click and 99% of the time a professional band will be on the money instrumentally and vocally throughout the song unless they jam or adlib a little. I've recorded vocal takes many times in studios (as an engineer not an artist) and had to edit parts from maybe 10 takes of a part of a song by comparing waveforms on a pc screen to 'cut' together the best performance. Sometimes down to part of a syllable from 3 tracks to form one word. The waveforms are so similar that a cut is pretty easy. You'd expect Steve Augeri to produce a waveform similar to 'Generations' from a live bootleg because he is singing the same song at the same tempo for the xxx'th time. Anyone would.

Pneumonia? Anyone had it? Steve Augeri has. Earlier this year and so have I. Any idea how long it takes to fully recover your ability to breathe properly afterwards? After 6 months you begin to get the feeling that you are getting there even with a mild infection as I had in my early 30's.

If I could sing and hit the stage within the first 6 months of recovery I might tail off on the high notes especially during a set of Journey material.

I was in the front few rows at Edinburgh, Manchester and Milton Keynes and yes Steve Augeri didn't nail every vocal. Sometimes he cracked a bit which isn't surprising. As a professional sound engineer for 20+ years I spot things. Hear keyboard parts when the keyboard player is holding guitar or notice 4 part harmonies when only 3 people are on the mic. But it isn't a con, it's part of performing, smoke and mirrors and all that.

Steve Augeri didn't have any guide vocals. When he choked a bit he pulled the mic back and did the best he could, much better than just about any vocalist around today. He has a band around him who produce amazing backing vocals and a drummer who can outsing the majority of singers around today. They probably do 'fly in' some sample harmonies plus the odd bit of keyboards... I play guitar in a wedding band and we do it too!

Cut all this crap and take a reality check. Bands use technology, get over it. If you want it raw then go see Ted Nugent as a 3 piece (really f**kin good actually) or go to your local pub or bar on jam night. If you want to hear Journey and Def Leppard sound full and fantastic then buy a ticket and enjoy.

You make some very excellent points!

[AR]

Last night they played to a half empty house and people are all saying he looked "under the weather" had an "illness" whatever.

Deano you are losing credibility with that statement. The place was freaking packed man. I was in the back of a pavilion with no empty seats and looked out at a crowded lawn.

You are right about a lot of things, but you were not at the show, I was.

Section 202 Row S Seat 72

[Rockindeano]

Steve Augeri didn't have any guide vocals.

Seems there is proof to dispell this theory.

He has a band around him who produce amazing backing vocals and a drummer who can outsing the majority of singers around today.

Mr Musician, you just lost all credibility. They don't sing backup vocals...those are piped in. Deen has a live mic because he CAN sing and needs to so he can carry Augeri. Hell, there is even substantiated rumour that Cain lips Every Generation! See "All roads lead to the Chip." In fact Deen had to help Cain last night on this very song. it's getting really bad now.

[Rockindeano]

Last night they played to a half empty house and people are all saying he looked "under the weather" had an "illness" whatever.

Deano you are losing credibility with that statement. The place was freaking packed man. I was in the back of a pavilion with no empty seats and looked out at a crowded lawn.

You are right about a lot of things, but you were not at the show, I was.

Section 202 Row S Seat 72

I was talking about the start of the show. I received two different calls. When they came on, there were less than half the seats taken. Look on DefLeppard dot com...pics during DSB, and there are tons of empty seats.

[AR]

I was talking about the start of the show. I received two different calls. When they came on, there were less than half the seats taken. Look on DefLeppard dot com...pics during DSB, and there are tons of empty seats.

Ok, gotcha. However, that will happen no matter what when you go on first. Don't think those pics were during DSB though. Beleive me, attendence and asses in the seats were not a problem last night.

Def Leppard sucked ass by the way. I loved them on the "X" tour, but they were boring last night.

The sick thing is, because of what is going on with Journey, I was glued to the show. For the wrong reasons of course, but it was surreal to witness knowing what I know.

Journey went over better with the crowd for what it's worth.....

[Rockindeano]

Ok, cool.

Reading different sites, the DL site said it was 80&% DL fans and the Journey site says 70-30 Journey.

They should just do a battle of the bands.


On a side note, you think Journey actually wanted to go on first, to hide the lipping? I am starting to think so now. Because Augeri doesn't need rest anyway, if you know what I mean.

[AR]

On a side note, you think Journey actually wanted to go on first, to hide the lipping?

That's possible.

Side note:

My brother went last night and is an equal fan of both bands. He wasn't impressed with either this time. Told me he loved Journey on the Arrival tour, and hasn't like Leppard live since the in the round shows on the Hysteria tour. Take that for what it's worth I guess.

[jrnysc]

It's like this.....

Most bands who record highly polished, complex, melodic music use sequenced parts live. That is a fact.

Def Leppard's vocal sequences famously screwed up during the Freddie Mercury tribute gig during Let's Get Rocked and the chorus backing came in out of time.

Rush have sequenced keyboard and bass parts and have used them since 1980 as Geddy Lee and Alex Lifeson weren't able to grow more limbs.

The 'taps' during Riverdance are backed up by sequencers.

Journey use sequencers during some songs particularly during choruses because it is normal, in no way is it a scandal because it is done throughout live music and has been the case for years. If a drummer plays to a 'click track' and the band takes a cue to start a song along with that 'click' then it isn't hard to fly in extra parts off of hard disc. The idea is that the audience get a better performance closer to the record and we all go home happy.

All this bullshit about comparing waveforms is simple. Play the songs at exact tempo to the record because the band uses a click and 99% of the time a professional band will be on the money instrumentally and vocally throughout the song unless they jam or adlib a little. I've recorded vocal takes many times in studios (as an engineer not an artist) and had to edit parts from maybe 10 takes of a part of a song by comparing waveforms on a pc screen to 'cut' together the best performance. Sometimes down to part of a syllable from 3 tracks to form one word. The waveforms are so similar that a cut is pretty easy. You'd expect Steve Augeri to produce a waveform similar to 'Generations' from a live bootleg because he is singing the same song at the same tempo for the xxx'th time. Anyone would.

Pneumonia? Anyone had it? Steve Augeri has. Earlier this year and so have I. Any idea how long it takes to fully recover your ability to breathe properly afterwards? After 6 months you begin to get the feeling that you are getting there even with a mild infection as I had in my early 30's.

If I could sing and hit the stage within the first 6 months of recovery I might tail off on the high notes especially during a set of Journey material.

I was in the front few rows at Edinburgh, Manchester and Milton Keynes and yes Steve Augeri didn't nail every vocal. Sometimes he cracked a bit which isn't surprising. As a professional sound engineer for 20+ years I spot things. Hear keyboard parts when the keyboard player is holding guitar or notice 4 part harmonies when only 3 people are on the mic. But it isn't a con, it's part of performing, smoke and mirrors and all that.

Steve Augeri didn't have any guide vocals. When he choked a bit he pulled the mic back and did the best he could, much better than just about any vocalist around today. He has a band around him who produce amazing backing vocals and a drummer who can outsing the majority of singers around today. They probably do 'fly in' some sample harmonies plus the odd bit of keyboards... I play guitar in a wedding band and we do it too!

Cut all this crap and take a reality check. Bands use technology, get over it. If you want it raw then go see Ted Nugent as a 3 piece (really f**kin good actually) or go to your local pub or bar on jam night. If you want to hear Journey and Def Leppard sound full and fantastic then buy a ticket and enjoy.

Thanks for the post, and the info. That is just about what I have come to believe already. Most ALL bands do this from what I am reading.

[KittyKat]

Ok, cool.

Reading different sites, the DL site said it was 80&% DL fans and the Journey site says 70-30 Journey.

They should just do a battle of the bands.


On a side note, you think Journey actually wanted to go on first, to hide the lipping? I am starting to think so now. Because Augeri doesn't need rest anyway, if you know what I mean.

I've been reading the reviews on several boards from last nights show and yes DL was the big draw but the only place I saw a bad review for DL was here and since I just saw them last tour I found it hard to believe they did a bad show. Once more reviews started coming in they were much better in favor of DL. I do know most were supportive of Journey though. I also noticed that all of the journey fans believed SA was singing the whole show live whereas the DL fans are not as convinced. You may not realize just how right you are about the battle of the bands because of Journey being under fire for some reason a few of their fans think that badmouthing DL will help their band in some way and it's highly resented.

[barneyrubble]

The trouble I have here Deano is that you are simply on a mission to destroy Journey with no credible evidence whatsoever.

I tried to point out that using sequenced vocals is widespread and part of the plan. Of course Journey sing BV's live and yes they are backed up just as Def Leppards, Styx just about anyone else who uses layered vocals on record and aren't the Harlem Community Gospel Choir.

What Augeri does, as I said, when his vocal starts to go, is back off the mic and the band and chorus prerecords carry the performance. They don't replace the lead vocal as a solo voice unless Deen C does it and the show goes on. If Jon Cain is using tracking then during the Edinburgh show it managed to go a little flat when he took the lead early on! That takes some doing using a 'ProTools' system.

Journey put on a great show, enhanced or not. Without 'help' Def Leppard would sound like an average 5 piece band with a one armed drummer and a singer who can't hit half the notes he made on record - go figure.

Rush would sound like a 3 piece bar band and David Lee Roth would sound... er exactly the way he did in Van Halen live (ouch). And I'm a huge fan of all of these bands!! I go to see a show, not sit in judgement.

I just don't understand why you have an issue with any of this. Light a candle and just play the records, get into sports, go save a whale, rob a bank, make up wth your parents for whatever they did but for god's sake Deano, go and get a life of your own.

[zino]

Barneyrubble wrote:

I tried to point out that using sequenced vocals is widespread and part of the plan. Of course Journey sing BV's live and yes they are backed up just as Def Leppards, Styx just about anyone else who uses layered vocals on record and aren't the Harlem Community Gospel Choir



I would have to agree with this 100% I have noticed this with even some of the current acts today. I am intoa few of the new bands today and one of those would be Shinedown, they are a bit heavy at times but they put on a great live show. The drummer, bass and guitar player don't even have mics, yet there are parts of the songs where there are backing vocals. There is even one part in there live DVD where the lead singer thake the mike away from his mouth and holds it behind his back as the background vocals sing a line in the song.
I was listing to their new CD on the way too work today and there is a lot of background vocals and when I saw them in concert, they were great but only had 1 mike. Never took away from the show, just a point. The bands would be crazy no to take advantage of the technology of today. After I saw the way Joe Elliot butchered Rock of Ages on the VH1 Rock-n-Roll thing, I sure hope he does something, cause he was ROUGH[quote][/quote]

[conversationpc]

After I saw the way Joe Elliot butchered Rock of Ages on the VH1 Rock-n-Roll thing, I sure hope he does something, cause he was ROUGH

I saw that. That was really rough. Ouch!

[Dano]

Totally agreed, BarneyRubble. That's why the point of this whole crusade completely befuddles me. The vast majority of touring acts do this exact same thing. It's showbiz. And I stand by one of my earlier posts that I've seen Journey enough times on several tours where Steve has sung things differently to know that the lead vox are not canned.

What I find most (unintentionally) amusing are the issues where Steve sounds "exactly" the same as on the DVD or what not. If this were Perry we were discussing, I'm sure many of the same people slamming Augeri here would be praising Perry for being incredibly consistent with his vocals night after night.

Just my humble opinion. Again, I am standing by the band and Augeri. I've been a fan for way too long to let these accusations bother me, especially when I know (as a musician myself) that fly-ins, samples, DAT BGV's and the like are used all the time by countless other acts. No big deal!

As many others have said, Steve Augeri has done a phenomenal job keeping the band alive. I can only think of one or two other situations where it would be equally as hard to replace a frontman like Perry. It is a completely unenviable position to be in-those were mighty big shoes to fill and in my opinion he has done so with great grace and humility. Let's not forget that Perry had to have these same songs stepped down by the time he was Augeri's age (reference the Bill Graham tribute), so as great of a vocalist as he was, he wasn't able to hit those notes anymore either. And keep in mind that Perry is my all-time favorite vocalist. As I said before, I've had the great fortune of getting to meet the band and they couldn't have been nicer or more gracious to the fans, not the least of which being Augeri. Regardless of the allegations, to attack this man's character is reprehensible in my eyes, as he is simply one of the nicest and most humble guys in the business. Anyone who has met him will tell you that.

The bottom line for me is that this band's music has been the soundtrack for my life for as long as I can remember, and I can never thank them enough for all they've given me and millions of other fans. Even for that alone, I would stand by them. Can't wait to see them rock in September!

[zino]

Totally agreed, BarneyRubble. That's why the point of this whole crusade completely befuddles me. The vast majority of touring acts do this exact same thing. It's showbiz. And I stand by one of my earlier posts that I've seen Journey enough times on several tours where Steve has sung things differently to know that the lead vox are not canned.

What I find most (unintentionally) amusing are the issues where Steve sounds "exactly" the same as on the DVD or what not. If this were Perry we were discussing, I'm sure many of the same people slamming Augeri here would be praising Perry for being incredibly consistent with his vocals night after night.

Just my humble opinion. Again, I am standing by the band and Augeri. I've been a fan for way too long to let these accusations bother me, especially when I know (as a musician myself) that fly-ins, samples, DAT BGV's and the like are used all the time by countless other acts. No big deal!

As many others have said, Steve Augeri has done a phenomenal job keeping the band alive. I can only think of one or two other situations where it would be equally as hard to replace a frontman like Perry. It is a completely unenviable position to be in-those were mighty big shoes to fill and in my opinion he has done so with great grace and humility. Let's not forget that Perry had to have these same songs stepped down by the time he was Augeri's age (reference the Bill Graham tribute), so as great of a vocalist as he was, he wasn't able to hit those notes anymore either. And keep in mind that Perry is my all-time favorite vocalist. As I said before, I've had the great fortune of getting to meet the band and they couldn't have been nicer or more gracious to the fans, not the least of which being Augeri. Regardless of the allegations, to attack this man's character is reprehensible in my eyes, as he is simply one of the nicest and most humble guys in the business. Anyone who has met him will tell you that.

The bottom line for me is that this band's music has been the soundtrack for my life for as long as I can remember, and I can never thank them enough for all they've given me and millions of other fans. Even for that alone, I would stand by them. Can't wait to see them rock in September!

Very well said, while I am a fan of Perry's it is Augeri who has kept this band alive for the last 8 years. I have listened to alot of the stuff here on this site and YES alot of it sounds the same, but isn't that what we are looking for?? A constent product? No matter what is said from know until the cows come home, if people want to believe he was lipping the words that is what they are going to believe. If Journey came out tomorrow and said all this was false who would believe them?? I bet not Deeano ! I would love to hear then comment on this sitiuation, but they are in a no win.

[r@y]

Another stupid thread....

I hear the same fucking words....technology, all bands, no big deal

Oh yeah....I still am waiting for my answer to the question : name me some bands who use tapes for lead vox...i.e. 90% or so of a song for more than just a song for a concert...?

Uh-huh...the silence is deafening....

Especially from the band....


Ray

[Jeremey]

It's like this.....

Most bands who record highly polished, complex, melodic music use sequenced parts live. That is a fact.

No one is disputing this. However, just to show you how it feels:

A fact? Prove it? Where is your evidence that bands use backing sequences? I haven't heard anything about this - Of course I realize the reason for this is because my head is always in the sand, but still. I will not believe it until there is some proof.

All this bullshit about comparing waveforms is simple. Play the songs at exact tempo to the record because the band uses a click and 99% of the time a professional band will be on the money instrumentally and vocally throughout the song unless they jam or adlib a little.

Absolutely! I'd expect them to be on track 100% of the time. A previous band of mine used keyboard sequences instead of a keyboard player and we hit the same marks every night. Not a tough thing to do, even for us amateurs.

I've recorded vocal takes many times in studios (as an engineer not an artist) and had to edit parts from maybe 10 takes of a part of a song by comparing waveforms on a pc screen to 'cut' together the best performance. Sometimes down to part of a syllable from 3 tracks to form one word. The waveforms are so similar that a cut is pretty easy. You'd expect Steve Augeri to produce a waveform similar to 'Generations' from a live bootleg because he is singing the same song at the same tempo for the xxx'th time. Anyone would.

Again - Absolutely. I edit waveforms in Sound Forge on a weekly basis to make medleys and shorten songs...I've edited Frontiers audio tracks for video clips to tighten them up, all sorts of crap. It's extremely easy to do.

Here's what you missed though - I didn't post the waveforms to prove that they were similar. I posted them for 1 reason: The people who claimed the bootlegs were doctored to include a blending of the Vegas 2001 audio - Which was not possible by hearing and looking at the waveforms. The screenshots were included in my other examples only to "show my work," kind of like audio long division.

Pneumonia? Anyone had it? Steve Augeri has. Earlier this year and so have I. Any idea how long it takes to fully recover your ability to breathe properly afterwards? After 6 months you begin to get the feeling that you are getting there even with a mild infection as I had in my early 30's.

If I could sing and hit the stage within the first 6 months of recovery I might tail off on the high notes especially during a set of Journey material.

If Steve Augeri had pnemunia, he probably couldn't have walked around on stage, let alone sing. If he was feeling well enough to do a corporate gig, though, I doubt he let his vocal issues hold the band back. That's good money.

As a professional sound engineer for 20+ years I spot things. Hear keyboard parts when the keyboard player is holding guitar or notice 4 part harmonies when only 3 people are on the mic. But it isn't a con, it's part of performing, smoke and mirrors and all that.

If these are your credentials, it is surprising to me then, that you have a problem believing what is really happening.

Steve Augeri didn't have any guide vocals.

The owner of this very site has said that this is true!?! This is why I don't understant that any contraversy remains.

[JrnySuxBalls]

Steve Augeri didn't have any guide vocals.

And OJ is still looking for the real killer. Any day now.

[StyxCollector]

I wouldn't put Journey and Rush in the same league here. Rush has had more of a "back to basics" approach for the past few tours as they readily admit they made stuff so complex it was hard to pull off live. But if Geddy samples stuff he played in the studio and triggers it with a foot or a finger, it's kinda lazy in some points, but I'm OK with it.

Geddy's lead vocals are all 100% live. He croaks at times. Many Rush fans, believe it or not, would prefer them not to trigger the backing vox (a la "Earthshine"), and strip some of the arrangements back even if they are more complex on record.

As the bassist/keyboard player in a Rush tribute band, I have some sequenced parts, but there's no way to do Rush, and songs like "Big Money", without them. In fact, I also can see why he simplifies many things down to one or two key presses.

Journey's music is nowhere near as complex as Rush, and I'm a fan of both bands. Journey should be playing and singing every note live, period. No sequences, no taped vox to fatten things up, nada.

[conversationpc]

I wouldn't put Journey and Rush in the same league here. Rush has had more of a "back to basics" approach for the past few tours as they readily admit they made stuff so complex it was hard to pull off live. But if Geddy samples stuff he played in the studio and triggers it with a foot or a finger, it's kinda lazy in some points, but I'm OK with it.

Geddy's lead vocals are all 100% live. He croaks at times. Many Rush fans, believe it or not, would prefer them not to trigger the backing vox (a la "Earthshine"), and strip some of the arrangements back even if they are more complex on record.

As the bassist/keyboard player in a Rush tribute band, I have some sequenced parts, but there's no way to do Rush, and songs like "Big Money", without them. In fact, I also can see why he simplifies many things down to one or two key presses.

Journey's music is nowhere near as complex as Rush, and I'm a fan of both bands. Journey should be playing and singing every note live, period. No sequences, no taped vox to fatten things up, nada.

If the allegations are true, the big difference is that Rush has never made a secret of it. It was well known that, beginning in the "Permanent Waves" period, that Geddy was triggering some of that stuff with some kind of a foot pedal. How else could Geddy sing, play bass, and keyboard all at the same time?

[StyxCollector]

If the allegations are true, the big difference is that Rush has never made a secret of it. It was well known that, beginning in the "Permanent Waves" period, that Geddy was triggering some of that stuff with some kind of a foot pedal. How else could Geddy sing, play bass, and keyboard all at the same time?

They never triggered backing vox until samples got long enough and their music got complex enough (i.e. Aimee Mann on the HYF tour). Back in the late 70s a technology called CV allowed analog keyboards to trigger other ones, so he used his Taurus pedals which were designed just to do bass sounds to trigger other synth stuff at the time.

Then the Oberheim DMX allowed them to trigger sequenced stuff, and the Roland 808, so that's that.

I play bass and keys all at the same time, but like Geddy, not all of it is sequenced. MIDI is a great tool to be able to play keys with your feet and play bass at the same time. MIDI is the great equalizer. It can be used for good or evil depending on your purpose

[conversationpc]

It can be used for good or evil depending on your purpose

Hah! In Rush's case, I would say you're on the good side.

I'm a HUGE Rush fan. Do you have any samples of your music or a web site?

[StyxCollector]

It can be used for good or evil depending on your purpose

Hah! In Rush's case, I would say you're on the good side.

I'm a HUGE Rush fan. Do you have any samples of your music or a web site?

Here's a link to our clips page: http://phantomfears.com/clips.html

We sound even better (IMHO) than we did when we recorded the stuff that's on there a year and a half ago. I'm putting up new live clips soon from a recent show.

[conversationpc]

Here's a link to our clips page: http://phantomfears.com/clips.html

We sound even better (IMHO) than we did when we recorded the stuff that's on there a year and a half ago. I'm putting up new live clips soon from a recent show.

Cool! I'm downloading your MP3s as I type this. Thanks.

[barneyrubble]

[quote="StyxCollector"]I wouldn't put Journey and Rush in the same league here. Rush has had more of a "back to basics" approach for the past few tours as they readily admit they made stuff so complex it was hard to pull off live. But if Geddy samples stuff he played in the studio and triggers it with a foot or a finger, it's kinda lazy in some points, but I'm OK with it.

Geddy's lead vocals are all 100% live. He croaks at times. Many Rush fans, believe it or not, would prefer them not to trigger the backing vox (a la "Earthshine"), and strip some of the arrangements back even if they are more complex on record.

As the bassist/keyboard player in a Rush tribute band, I have some sequenced parts, but there's no way to do Rush, and songs like "Big Money", without them. In fact, I also can see why he simplifies many things down to one or two key presses.

Journey's music is nowhere near as complex as Rush, and I'm a fan of both bands. Journey should be playing and singing every note live, period. No sequences, no taped vox to fatten things up, nada.[/quote]


No Rush are very different I agree. I've seen them every tour since 1981 and they are getting better with age.

If you don't believe Journey shouldn't sequence parts then what is your take on Def Leppard. Can you imagine what they sound like without flown in backing vocals?! It's a scary thought isn't it? Imagine Hysteria recorded by a bar band over a weekend and mixed on the Sunday evening after 48 hours drinking and you'd be getting close.

[SusieP]

...............what is your take on Def Leppard.

Can you imagine what they sound like without flown in backing vocals?! It's a scary thought isn't it? Imagine Hysteria recorded by a bar band over a weekend and mixed on the Sunday evening after 48 hours drinking and you'd be getting close.

IMO when Leppard performed at Live 8 that's just what they did sound (and look like!) - but maybe that's an insult to bar bands! They looked and sounded ROUGH! Well, I thought so anyway.

[StyxCollector]

No Rush are very different I agree. I've seen them every tour since 1981 and they are getting better with age.

If you don't believe Journey shouldn't sequence parts then what is your take on Def Leppard. Can you imagine what they sound like without flown in backing vocals?! It's a scary thought isn't it? Imagine Hysteria recorded by a bar band over a weekend and mixed on the Sunday evening after 48 hours drinking and you'd be getting close.

I agree on Rush - have seen every tour since '88 and they have only gotten better even though Geddy's range isn't what it used to be. They're not pretending to be anyone else but themselves, and I think going to the Evening With ... format has helped them.

See with Journey, they have a keyboard player on stage. They have all guys who can (supposedly) sing. So that's why I say Journey needs to do it all live. Even if it was just Cain, Schon, Augeri, and Castronovo, the vox should be thick enough without sweetening.

As for DL, I'm not a huge fan. I know they have backing singers this time out. Their sound - at least the 80s - is that Mutt Lange wall of sound which is what they are known for. The sad thing is they have enough guys onstage where they should be able to pull it off w/o backing vox needed to be flown in. If you need a keyboard player, hire one. I've never seen DL live other than that Rock Honors on TV, and that wasn't great.

[SusieP]

All these discussions on here have really got me thinking.
You know, if Journey hadn't toured in your country for 26 years, maybe you would be just so happy to see them that vocal 'help' wouldn't really matter?

I remember when I saw The Police years ago, and Sting had a sore throat (allegedly) - his singing was awful and I didn't enjoy the show because of it. I saw them again a few months later, and the same thing happened. Maybe if he'd employed vocal 'help' on the tour, I'd have enjoyed listening a whole lot better. Maybe. I'm just thinking out loud and writing it down.

All I'm saying is that as a concert audience member, I want to hear a good sound. Especially the lead vocals.
I would PREFER those vocals to be performed live on the night, but if the singer is croaky or whatever, I would rather hear his/her voice on a track than have the gig cancelled/or listen to a struggling vocalist all night.

If it's only done on occasion to get them through without cancelling, of course. Every night, all the time is a bit much I suppose.

If the singer is miming/lip synching/singing live-but-not-having-their-voice heard-by-the crowd - whatever - TO THEIR OWN VOICE, then I don't see a problem (on occasion), but if they are miming to someone elses voice, e.g. like in the old Hollywood movies when you saw Audrey Hepburn or Natalie Wood mouthing words but you heard Marni Nixon singing - now that's a different thing altogether. Especially if you believed it was actually the actress singing. The word 'con' springs to mind in that situation.

Just another two cents, I sing for my living. I know my own vocal range/limitations and there are many songs that are difficult for me to sing comfortably, so if they MUST be in my act, I have them transposed into a key that does not strain my voice.
Trying to sing songs that strain one's voice is just not advisable if you want to keep your voice in good shape.
In the case of band's of the stature we are discussing, I can see that fans would prefer to hear their favourite songs performed in the original key, but if a singer is struggling to sing in that key, wouldn't it be preferable to hear the song sung in a more comfortable key? Surely the listening experience would be more pleasant.

And one more little thing before I leave and get my post ripped to shreds - on occasion, I have been singing on stage and my voice has just gone croaky, (usually catarrh when I have had a cold or something) and it is such a dreadful thing to happen. It's embarrassing and uncomfortable.
But, that only happens once in a blue moon. When I get a cold, sometimes it affects the vocal cords, sometimes it doesn't, if I know they are affected - I cancel. But then, I don't have thousands of fans with tickets for a stadium gig to disappoint if I cancel. If I did, then maybe I would consider miming as a last resort.

There, by writing my thoughts down, I think I've made my decision - which is, that it is ok to employ vocal help on the rare occasion when you have a cold, rather than disappoint thousands of fans.
But it's not really acceptable to do it every night.
I'm talking lead vocals, of course.