The way it is

[whocares]

900.00 for a seat at a Stones concert!!! well if they can ask for it and you pay for it; then
when the prices go up another 150.00 and then another 50; well it's the fans fault for paying such exurbiant prices. that's scalping.

oh heck no I dind't pay it, I'm just saying what ticket prices were for the concert in this town, and I live in the U.S. Midwest. You know where the cornfeilds are. Honestly, I don't think I've ever paid more than $35 for a ticket to see anyone. Thank God I won on the radio tickets to see Clapton, and got free tickets to see Dennis DeYoung and John Waite last year, otherwise that's two shows at $75+ each I would have missed.

People pay these prices especially as corporations, and sometimes the tickets/seats go unused. What a waste.

[jrnysc]

I think The Stones have more than enough money to pay lawyers and promoters etc in the event of Keef having an 'episode' and the insurance company not covering cancellation and rescheduling costs. HOW much money have they got???WOW!

I don't know much about show insurance, but don't the bands management and promoters etc take out a poilicy that will cover cancellation costs, admin fees for ticket refunds, roadies and techs wages etc? And don't all these policies exclude pre existing conditions?

See what I'm getting at?
Keef hasn't fallen from a tree before, but Stevie A has had pneumonia before the tour?
So maybe if Journey cancelled they would have had to pay all those costs out of their own pockets?

Just guessing here. If you have a condition that 'could give rise to a claim' the insurers just say bye bye and thanks for paying the premiums.

Susie, have you seen the Faith In The Heartland video yet?

[swepett]

I think The Stones have more than enough money to pay lawyers and promoters etc in the event of Keef having an 'episode' and the insurance company not covering cancellation and rescheduling costs. HOW much money have they got???WOW!

I don't know much about show insurance, but don't the bands management and promoters etc take out a poilicy that will cover cancellation costs, admin fees for ticket refunds, roadies and techs wages etc? And don't all these policies exclude pre existing conditions?

See what I'm getting at?
Keef hasn't fallen from a tree before, but Stevie A has had pneumonia before the tour?
So maybe if Journey cancelled they would have had to pay all those costs out of their own pockets?

Just guessing here. If you have a condition that 'could give rise to a claim' the insurers just say bye bye and thanks for paying the premiums.

That makes sense.

[SusieP]

[quote="Susie, being a vocalist, if you have time, check out the Faith In The Heartland video, and see what you think. Certainly sounds live, and sounds like Augeri is straining at times. That is the first song!!!!! [/quote]


You mean the Manchester Apollo one?
Oh dear, I don't want to get drawn into this. It sounds very muffled on my PC. The picture clarity isn't great either so it's hard to know what to think.
Sigh. I guess you need to be really close up to a singer to know whether what you are hearing is what they are singing at the precise moment you are hearing it.
I have my opinions, and that's all they are. I don't want to say any more - I'm sure you understand.

And, anyway it was just so good to have them back in England after all these years, that I don't actually care!
Well just this once I don't. I mean TWENTY SIX YEARS! Come ON!

[SusieP]

[
Susie, have you seen the Faith In The Heartland video yet?

yes Ive just spent ages typing a reply that isn't libellous!

[jrnysc]

[
Susie, have you seen the Faith In The Heartland video yet?

Ha ha - yes Ive just spent ages typing a reply that isn't libellous!

LOL...I understand. It's the live video that VH1 has been airing. Seems to be having a little trouble in that one. Once again, I am not saying they have never used pre-recorded vocals or that they have. That one sounded live to me, but I'm no expert. Too many variations in the vocals IMO.

[jrnysc]

[
Susie, have you seen the Faith In The Heartland video yet?

Ha ha - yes Ive just spent ages typing a reply that isn't libellous!

LOL...I understand. It's the live video that VH1 has been airing. Seems to be having a little trouble in that one. Once again, I am not saying they have never used pre-recorded vocals or that they have. That one sounded live to me, but I'm not expert.

By the way, I wouldn't try to drag you into it. I just enjoy talking to vocalist to get their opinion. You guys would know better than I.

[SusieP]

[
Susie, have you seen the Faith In The Heartland video yet?

Ha ha - yes Ive just spent ages typing a reply that isn't libellous!

LOL...I understand. It's the live video that VH1 has been airing. Seems to be having a little trouble in that one. Once again, I am not saying they have never used pre-recorded vocals or that they have. That one sounded live to me, but I'm not expert.

My opinion is that unless we were standing close enough to see the guys nasal hair and hear him breathe - we won't know for sure.

I think we can assume that his pneumonia took longer to recover from than he thought and he's been struggling to get back on form.
I think that the fact he has kept going show's courage and determination and should be applauded. He's only doing his best.
I really need to have a word with him about throat steaming, herbal remedies and having songs changed into comfortable keys, though.
Hey Steve! Come here!

[swepett]

[quote="Susie, being a vocalist, if you have time, check out the Faith In The Heartland video, and see what you think. Certainly sounds live, and sounds like Augeri is straining at times. That is the first song!!!!!

You mean the Manchester Apollo one?
Oh dear, I don't want to get drawn into this. It sounds very muffled on my PC. The picture clarity isn't great either so it's hard to know what to think.
Sigh. I guess you need to be really close up to a singer to know whether what you are hearing is what they are singing at the precise moment you are hearing it.
I have my opinions, and that's all they are. I don't want to say any more - I'm sure you understand.
[/quote]

Where can one get his hands on that Manchester video?

[jrnysc]

[quote="Susie, being a vocalist, if you have time, check out the Faith In The Heartland video, and see what you think. Certainly sounds live, and sounds like Augeri is straining at times. That is the first song!!!!!

You mean the Manchester Apollo one?
Oh dear, I don't want to get drawn into this. It sounds very muffled on my PC. The picture clarity isn't great either so it's hard to know what to think.
Sigh. I guess you need to be really close up to a singer to know whether what you are hearing is what they are singing at the precise moment you are hearing it.
I have my opinions, and that's all they are. I don't want to say any more - I'm sure you understand.

Where can one get his hands on that Manchester video?[/quote]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfhkXhyz ... %20augerie

[jrnysc]

[
Susie, have you seen the Faith In The Heartland video yet?

Ha ha - yes Ive just spent ages typing a reply that isn't libellous!

LOL...I understand. It's the live video that VH1 has been airing. Seems to be having a little trouble in that one. Once again, I am not saying they have never used pre-recorded vocals or that they have. That one sounded live to me, but I'm not expert.

My opinion is that unless we were standing close enough to see the guys nasal hair and hear him breathe - we won't know for sure.

I think we can assume that his pneumonia took longer to recover from than he thought and he's been struggling to get back on form.
I think that the fact he has kept going show's courage and determination and should be applauded. He's only doing his best.
I really need to have a word with him about throat steaming, herbal remedies and having songs changed into comfortable keys, though.
Hey Steve! Come here!

Your a class act. That was some response! I agree with you by the way. I guess my point was on that one, that if your pumping in pre-recorded vocals I would think you would have to sing the song just like on cd, and the vocals would sound like the cd.

[SusieP]

[quote="Susie, being a vocalist, if you have time, check out the Faith In The Heartland video, and see what you think. Certainly sounds live, and sounds like Augeri is straining at times. That is the first song!!!!!

You mean the Manchester Apollo one?
Oh dear, I don't want to get drawn into this. It sounds very muffled on my PC. The picture clarity isn't great either so it's hard to know what to think.
Sigh. I guess you need to be really close up to a singer to know whether what you are hearing is what they are singing at the precise moment you are hearing it.
I have my opinions, and that's all they are. I don't want to say any more - I'm sure you understand.

Where can one get his hands on that Manchester video?[/quote]

Oh its not an official one - it's on youtube so you can imagine how rough the quality is. Type in 'faith in the heartland+journey' and you'll see it.
If you study it you MAY see and hear things to help you decide what you think about the whole debate that is raging on these forums. I'm saying nothing though.

[SusieP]

[

Your a class act. That was some response! I agree with you by the way. I guess my point was on that one, that if your pumping in pre-recorded vocals I would think you would have to sing the song just like on cd, and the vocals would sound like the cd.

Exactly! One would have to give an identical rendition of the song every time. No room for adding an extra 'yeah' or holding on a note longer than last night or whatever. Absolutely identical. Every phrase, every breath - every song, ALL night, EVERY NIGHT! Now that's hard!

And I can understand everyone getting upset because they may not be getting what they thought they'd paid for. I can understand that.

But as I said, we've waited so long in the UK to get them (minus Perry) * back here that as long as it was Augeri's voice we heard and not Alvin the Chipmunk's I don't care!




* or with -any line up!

[jrnysc]

[

Your a class act. That was some response! I agree with you by the way. I guess my point was on that one, that if your pumping in pre-recorded vocals I would think you would have to sing the song just like on cd, and the vocals would sound like the cd.

Exactly! One would have to give an identical rendition of the song every time. No room for adding an extra 'yeah' or holding on a note longer than last night or whatever. Absolutely identical. Every phrase, every breath - every song, ALL night, EVERY NIGHT! Now that's hard!

And I can understand everyone getting upset because they may not be getting what they thought they'd paid for. I can understand that.

But as I said, we've waited so long in the UK to get them (minus Perry) back here that as long as it was Augeri's voice we heard and not Alvin the Chipmunk's I don't care!

Thank you. You answered my question in your opinion. There are some other recordings that may you go hmmmm. However, as you said, I hope Steve the best, and I cannot wait to see them on July 15th in Charlotte. Steve, take care of yourself till then so you can rock our arses off!! Journey is my band. Loved them since 83. They have NEVER let me down live.

[swepett]

Where can one get his hands on that Manchester video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfhkXhyz ... %20augerie

But that can't be from Manchester(?). Wasn't Cain on the right side of the stage (from the audience's view) all throughout the European tour?

[SusieP]

Where can one get his hands on that Manchester video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfhkXhyz ... %20augerie

But that can't be from Manchester(?). Wasn't Cain on the right side of the stage (from the audience's view) all throughout the European tour?

Its just too blurred - it could be a tribute band for all we know.

[jrnysc]

Where can one get his hands on that Manchester video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfhkXhyz ... %20augerie

But that can't be from Manchester(?). Wasn't Cain on the right side of the stage (from the audience's view) all throughout the European tour?

Yes, I believe so. I was thinking it was from the last few nights. I'm not really sure. The video was pretty clear on my computer. Some distortion, but not bad.

[jrnysc]

I do like the stage show they have this time around.

[swepett]

But that can't be from Manchester(?). Wasn't Cain on the right side of the stage (from the audience's view) all throughout the European tour?

Yes, I believe so. I was thinking it was from the last few nights. I'm not really sure. The video was pretty clear on my computer. Some distortion, but not bad.

I think it's older.

What I am curious about is video of "Faithfully" from Manchester. Someone on this board said that existed but so far, no one has been able to point me to a copy.

[jrnysc]

But that can't be from Manchester(?). Wasn't Cain on the right side of the stage (from the audience's view) all throughout the European tour?

Yes, I believe so. I was thinking it was from the last few nights. I'm not really sure. The video was pretty clear on my computer. Some distortion, but not bad.

I think it's older.

What I am curious about is video of "Faithfully" from Manchester. Someone on this board said that existed but so far, no one has been able to point me to a copy.

It may be older. I have not found the Faithfully one either. I believe they were instructed to remove them immediately by Journey management if I remember correctly.

[barneyrubble]

Cain was on the right for all the European shows, it's not from Manchester. I was at the front for all 3 UK shows and the photos are all over BT. Got my own boots from all 3 shows too.

Funny thing about the whole lipping thing is that when Steve held the mic out to the audience the so called sync track had audience members on it! Ain't that just incredibly good luck!

Then there's the times that he ad-libbed "You Rock (Edinburgh, Milton Keynes, Manchester) you know it don't you" right in the middle of 3 or 4 numbers during the evening!! Amazing for the lip track to do that. When you consider that the 'lip track' actually included flat notes, tailed off notes, choked notes and ad-libs it's just amazing the way technology has marched on. You could almost be excused for thinking that he was actually singing and sometimes not quite on the button either. Call me a cynic, the evidence is so damning, they need to replace the sync track with an actual vocalist because it's clearly not working properly.

[JrnySuxBalls]

There are sections where the mic is opened for ad libbing. There are specific sections for that.

You won't hear the name of a city sang or yelled in the middle of a verse thats for sure.

[nolippin]

Well, I don't profess to be an audio engineer, but wouldn't the mic itself have a power switch? Then the singer would be able to turn it on or off himself??

There are sections where the mic is opened for ad libbing. There are specific sections for that.

You won't hear the name of a city sang or yelled in the middle of a verse thats for sure.

[JrnySuxBalls]

Well, I don't profess to be an audio engineer, but wouldn't the mic itself have a power switch? Then the singer would be able to turn it on or off himself??

Technically yes, wireless mics have mute & power switches, but it's generally not messed with by the
singer. His mic is on the whole time, and Kevin Elson turns things on & off from the FOH mixer board.

[barneyrubble]

Now I know that none of you have a clue what you are talking about! So they are supposed to fly a sync and at certain times and not expect anyone to notice.... You're serious about this theory aren't you?!! The audible timbre would be so different it would stand out like a sore thumb apart from how hit and miss the miming would be due to the timing. Any song with an an ad-libbed musical intro such as JC's classical keyboard intro (can't remember which song) and Neal's short and occasional soloing spots would be next to impossible to time from the start of the sync track. For a lead singer to be anywhere near convincing without having to wait for the track before moving his mouth would be a work of genius!! Bearing in mind that half of the time he pulls his IEM monitors out for the choruses (in ear monitors) and Journey don't have any stage wedges, he'd be flying blind for half of the songs. I'd salute the guy for being able to pull it off to be honest.

[barneyrubble]

[b][quote="JDouglee"][quote="nolippin"]

Well, I don't profess to be an audio engineer, but wouldn't the mic itself have a power switch? Then the singer would be able to turn it on or off himself??

[/quote]
Technically yes, wireless mics have mute & power switches, but it's generally not messed with by the
singer. His mic is on the whole time, and Kevin Elson turns things on & off from the FOH mixer board.[/quote][/b]

...... Wireless mic mute switches are small and fiddly any way, as for FOH mixer turning them on and off that's crap. If you were going to 'turn things on and off' you'd do it from the monitor mixer position side stage where you have decent visual contact with the band in case it goes wrong and where the 'In Ear' mix is derived from.

I think the FOH engineer has enough to deal with without flying from console to racks or pc and back several times a song. I take it you're version of events requires 2 sequencers synced together then, one running JC's sequences, effects, BV's and the other running the vocals? Keeping one running is bad enough live without the added pleasure of a 2nd with a mind of it's own and a sync issue. Have a think about how the rig is put together in order to acheive this technically and particularly how a support act in the middle of a festival gets this lot running in a 15 minute turnaround and let me know.

[swepett]

NOTE: The following is an explanation how this could be done, not an actual descritption of how Journey does this.

...... Wireless mic mute switches are small and fiddly any way, as for FOH mixer turning them on and off that's crap. If you were going to 'turn things on and off' you'd do it from the monitor mixer position side stage where you have decent visual contact with the band in case it goes wrong and where the 'In Ear' mix is derived from.

I think the FOH engineer has enough to deal with without flying from console to racks or pc and back several times a song.

Of course no one is turning off the power of the wireless mic. It even takes a second or two for it to fire up again so that wouldn't work. And you can't switch off the mic power anywhere else than on the actual mic. What the FOH engineer would do is to have the mic feed on one channel of the board and the recorded feed on another. Then you use the faders and mute switches on the board to mix between the two.

I take it you're version of events requires 2 sequencers synced together then, one running JC's sequences, effects, BV's and the other running the vocals? Keeping one running is bad enough live without the added pleasure of a 2nd with a mind of it's own and a sync issue. Have a think about how the rig is put together in order to acheive this technically and particularly how a support act in the middle of a festival gets this lot running in a 15 minute turnaround and let me know.

This has been said a million times now but let's repeat: there is a digital multi-track recorder on stage. Say it has eight tracks. The tape channels could contain the following:

1. Click track, to make sure everyone is playing along to the tape. This is feeded to all the band member's in-ear monitors. Something to think about: Neal is the only one with traditional monitors on stage. But he also has in-ear monitors. (Sure, some musicians who are used to traditional monitors want them on the floor as backup to their in-ear monitors and they can be used to provide some extra thump to your stomach but it's still something to think about IMO.)
2. Lead vocals
3-4: Backing vocals in stereo
5-6: Keyboards in stereo

Then you even have two channels left in the recorder to play with. It would be no problem syncing up other devices to this machine too but there's really no need for that. But if Cain had some backup keys in a computer or an old school sequencer, that could easily be synced with the digital multitrack machine.

Improvised solos would have to have a time restriction to work with the backup tape. Neal can play whatever he wants as long as it is 16 bars. And it's not like they are known to all of a sudden in just one gig stretch a song with extra solos.

[JrnySuxBalls]

Of course no one is turning off the power of the wireless mic. It even takes a second or two for it to fire up again so that wouldn't work. And you can't switch off the mic power anywhere else than on the actual mic. What the FOH engineer would do is to have the mic feed on one channel of the board and the recorded feed on another. Then you use the faders and mute switches on the board to mix between the two.

That's actually what I meant by "turning on & off". I never know the level of knowledge by people
on this board so i tend to simplify. Thanks Svante for the clarification.

...wireless mics have mute & power switches, but it's generally not messed with by the
singer. His mic is on the whole time, and Kevin Elson turns things on & off from the FOH mixer board.

Wireless mic mute switches are small and fiddly any way, as for FOH mixer turning them on and off that's crap. If you were going to 'turn things on and off' you'd do it from the monitor mixer position side stage where you have decent visual contact with the band in case it goes wrong and where the 'In Ear' mix is derived from.

Remember, we're talking about Journey/Augeri here, so yes FOH which would be Elson is bringing live
mic and recorded vocals up & down with each other. Would it be toggling mute switches or using
subgroups I have no idea. Augeri is most likely getting his live mic in his IEM, and possibly the rest of
the band as well. One wonders if the monitor mixer is getting the recorded feed or not, or if it goes
directly to Elson.

[barneyrubble]

If the monitor mix isn't getting the recorded lead feed then the bands live BV harmonies would be awkward to reference.

Schon's intro guitar parts varied quite a bit during the 3 shows I saw because he played around with different versions of scottish songs (edinburgh) and different tracks for Manc and MK.

There is no way they'd use anything other than a ProTools rig or similar and Elson wouldn't have control from FOH. I suggest that if someone is going to a show then they shoot a phone video from behind the FOH console to see how much work Elson is doing on the board. See if he is riding faders or hitting mutes.

[JrnySuxBalls]

If the monitor mix isn't getting the recorded lead feed then the bands live BV harmonies would be awkward to reference.

You have a point there. It's hard to know exactly what the band is getting in their monitors.

Schon's intro guitar parts varied quite a bit during the 3 shows I saw because he played around with different versions of scottish songs (edinburgh) and different tracks for Manc and MK.

It would seem Neal's solos are 100% live. Neal's playing ability is definitely not in question here.