JSS and Journey

[StyxCollector]

Gregg may give them some rock cred again, but who cares.
Sacharine ballads aside, the music is simply better under Cain.
More melodious.

Oh, I don't know about that. I like all eras of Journey and Escape is one of my favorite albums of all time, but pre-Cain Journey is much better musically IMHO. Gregg is a much better musician than Cain, and I think the band could stretch much easier. Cain may be a better keyboard player (and that is arguable), but Gregg's piano playing - and especially his stellar organ work - is better. There's a depth there which Cain seems to be lacking.

Now, I'm not criticizing his overall playing. He's an excellent piano player, but to say the Cain era is heads and shoulders above is ridiculous. The first three Journey albums alone musically blow away the later years, but the later years are better crafted pop tunes.

[Argus]

[Andrew]

Wow, I gotta say that I am in total agreement with you on all points. I made similar statements on another thread yesterday, specifically referring to the utter lack of press and promotion that Azoff/Baruch/Consolo have gotten the band. Def Lep have full-page ads for the new CD and tour in major magazines, a feature article in Entertainment Weekly some weeks back, the Wal-Mart tie in, etc.

LOL.....have how far as that got them??? Their worst selling album ever....!!!!!!!

[The_Noble_Cause]

The first three Journey albums alone musically blow away the later years, but the later years are better crafted pop tunes.

They may be pop fluff, but they are timeless pop fluff.
This site is melodicrock.com, right?
It's all about melody.
Under Rolie's era everything sounded more stripped back.
Label me cornball, but gimme that 80's schlocko synth-ladden sound.

[conversationpc]

LOL.....have how far as that got them??? Their worst selling album ever....!!!!!!!

It's a covers album. As good as it may or may not be, fans just aren't interested in them. I loved the Rush covers album, "Feedback", but even a lot of Rush fans could not have cared less about.

[Rockindeano]

Don't you think Perry was the common denominator? The last eight years you had a piano player and a guitarist writing songs to be tailored to a singer, and the "singer" in the last 8 years couldn't write for shit.

Now you don't have SP, but you do have JSS, and that guy can write. I think JSS and Greg would seem a better fit than Cain.

[AR]

Def Leppard can't draw flies on their own. I saw them in front of NO ONE by themselves on 4/15/03 in Baltimore. Want evidence? They need Journey and/or Bryan Adams to get anyone in the seats.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Don't you think Perry was the common denominator?

Def. a big factor!

Now you don't have SP, but you do have JSS, and that guy can write. I think JSS and Greg would seem a better fit than Cain.

Why don't we first wait and see what Soto/Cain/Schon will cook up?
You are lynching them for songs yet written!
Go grind your axe some place else.

[Rockindeano]

The first three Journey albums alone musically blow away the later years, but the later years are better crafted pop tunes.

They may be pop fluff, but they are timeless pop fluff.
This site is melodicrock.com, right?
It's all about melody.
Under Rolie's era everything sounded more stripped back.
Label me cornball, but gimme that 80's schlocko synth-ladden sound.

Dude, Lights, Feeling that Way/Anytime, AWYWI, Walks Like a Lady, City of the Angels, When You're Alone It Ain't easy, Lovin You is Easy, Just the Same Way....All have.........

Melodies.

[StyxCollector]

The first three Journey albums alone musically blow away the later years, but the later years are better crafted pop tunes.

They may be pop fluff, but they are timeless pop fluff.
This site is melodicrock.com, right?
It's all about melody.
Under Rolie's era everything sounded more stripped back.
Label me cornball, but gimme that 80's schlocko synth-ladden sound.

But Journey must also be viewed from its roots. Both the hits and the extended stuff are valid in the Journey canon. To me, Perry changed the direction of the band in 77/78, and a lot of the songs from that era are timeless classics now ("Lights", "Where Were You?", etc.). So to say that the more pop era only started with Escape is wrong. Journey's sound got more synthy and it made sense - it was the sound of the 80s. I love Frontiers, but it's a record of its time. And no less valid than Next or Dream After Dream (which is arguably my favorite Journey album).

A song should work whether played alone on guitar or piano, and the production should only enhance it. "Open Arms" would work with just voice and piano. That is a classic tune.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Dude, Lights, Feeling that Way/Anytime, AWYWI, Walks Like a Lady, City of the Angels, When You're Alone It Ain't easy, Lovin You is Easy, Just the Same Way....All have.........

Melodies.

Hmmph. I guess so.
Seems I was the one taking the piss here.
You're still a goat fucker!

[The_Noble_Cause]

The first three Journey albums alone musically blow away the later years, but the later years are better crafted pop tunes.

They may be pop fluff, but they are timeless pop fluff.
This site is melodicrock.com, right?
It's all about melody.
Under Rolie's era everything sounded more stripped back.
Label me cornball, but gimme that 80's schlocko synth-ladden sound.

But Journey must also be viewed from its roots. Both the hits and the extended stuff are valid in the Journey canon. To me, Perry changed the direction of the band in 77/78, and a lot of the songs from that era are timeless classics now ("Lights", "Where Were You?", etc.). So to say that the more pop era only started with Escape is wrong. Journey's sound got more synthy and it made sense - it was the sound of the 80s. I love Frontiers, but it's a record of its time. And no less valid than Next or Dream After Dream (which is arguably my favorite Journey album).

A song should work whether played alone on guitar or piano, and the production should only enhance it. "Open Arms" would work with just voice and piano. That is a classic tune.

Yeah, I am gonna recant everything I said. I guess the use of keyboard instead of organ gave me the misperception that the Cain-era was more melodic than it really was.
I need to think about this some more.
Unless a more articulate and musically savvy fan wishes to pick up the torch and carry on?

[Rockindeano]

You have class TNC. Admitting defeat, when beaten. Live to fight another day.

[DerriD]

Def Leppard can't draw flies on their own. I saw them in front of NO ONE by themselves on 4/15/03 in Baltimore. Want evidence? They need Journey and/or Bryan Adams to get anyone in the seats.

Well to counterpoint, I saw them during the Euphoria tour with a local opening act and they sold out our 15000 seat pavilion. Ya must have just seen them on a bad night.

[StyxCollector]

Yeah, I am gonna recant everything I said. I guess the use of keyboard instead of organ gave me the misperception that the Cain-era was more melodic than it really did. I need to think about this some more.

No worries man. Sometimes it just takes a step back and looking at the big picture. The 80s stuff is great, and nothing wrong with preferring it at all. Never apologize for that. The run Journey had from 78 to about 83 is about as good as it gets for a band. Same for Styx in the same period. The other problem is that these bands we love have shelf lives. Your creative peak only lasts for so long.

The Cain era is much different than the era with Gregg sonically (simpler if you will), but the unifier there is Neal. Neal's sound is on every single Journey record.

[ohsherrie]

This Cain vs Rollie discussion is really thought provoking. I don't like Rollie's singing voice, but I have to admit it's better than Cain's. Even though Escape with Open Arms and DSB was the album that really put Journey at the top of the heap I can't say that it has more of my favorite songs than any of the earlier albums. I like the overall style of the albums that Jon contributed on more than the earlier ones, but who's to say Rollie's writing wouldn't have evolved to become more pertinent to the times? I don't like what I know of Cain as a person, but Rollie seems to have more honesty and personal integrity than Cain or Schon. Hmmmmmmmmmm, like I said, it's thought provoking.

[Dano]

Wow, I gotta say that I am in total agreement with you on all points. I made similar statements on another thread yesterday, specifically referring to the utter lack of press and promotion that Azoff/Baruch/Consolo have gotten the band. Def Lep have full-page ads for the new CD and tour in major magazines, a feature article in Entertainment Weekly some weeks back, the Wal-Mart tie in, etc.

LOL.....have how far as that got them??? Their worst selling album ever....!!!!!!!

Not very far in sales I agree, Andrew. My point was more about the fact that at least they have some press people on their management team getting them covered in the media and their record label is getting behind them and buying some serious ads. I was shocked when I saw the Rolling Stone ad touting "See them in concert this summer" or something to that effect, along with the tour dates but no mention of Journey. Granted, Journey's not signed to any label under UMG (or a label period, for that matter) but usually those ads mention who they're touring with. You would think there would be some money somewhere in the Journey organization that could be used to buy an ad or two, or for God's sake put something worthwhile up on that website of theirs.

Understand that my dissatisfaction in all this is not aimed at the band per se, but definitely directed squarely at management. Hate to bring up Herbie again, but he certainly knew how to promote his acts. Not to mention other heavy hitters like Q-Prime or Doc McGhee's organization. It just seems like Journey is an afterthought in Azoff's camp, especially as this is a co-headlining bill. As I said previously, the general public or casual fan probably doesn't even know Journey is on this tour, but I'm willing to bet they know Def Leppard is. Like I said, it may not be doing much for this album sales-wise (and to be fair to DL, cover albums don't tend to do well commercially as a rule) but this is the most media exposure I've seen them get in many years. I forgot to mention the VH-1 Rock Honors earlier as well.

Then again, Neal was interviewed in last month's Hooters magazine (yes, I'm serious), so at least there's something.

[Monker]

The first three Journey albums alone musically blow away the later years, but the later years are better crafted pop tunes.

They may be pop fluff, but they are timeless pop fluff.
This site is melodicrock.com, right?
It's all about melody.
Under Rolie's era everything sounded more stripped back.
Label me cornball, but gimme that 80's schlocko synth-ladden sound.

It's irrelevant anyway...Rolie isn't going back to Journey either. Neal/Journey burned him for both the original Journey reunion AND Abraxas Pool....Why would he want to be thrown in that situation again? Chalfant can't even get him to do a Storm album...Journey style music isn't what he seems to want to do.

[StyxCollector]

It's irrelevant anyway...Rolie isn't going back to Journey either. Neal/Journey burned him for both the original Journey reunion AND Abraxas Pool....Why would he want to be thrown in that situation again? Chalfant can't even get him to do a Storm album...Journey style music isn't what he seems to want to do.

What happened around Abraxas Pool? I got that album ages ago.

[NealIsGod]

Then again, Neal was interviewed in last month's Hooters magazine (yes, I'm serious), so at least there's something.

That's why he is a God. Sammy would be proud.

[Monker]

It's irrelevant anyway...Rolie isn't going back to Journey either. Neal/Journey burned him for both the original Journey reunion AND Abraxas Pool....Why would he want to be thrown in that situation again? Chalfant can't even get him to do a Storm album...Journey style music isn't what he seems to want to do.

What happened around Abraxas Pool? I got that album ages ago.

When Neal dumped Gregg and Chalfant to reunite with Perry, he also abandoned Abraxas Pool.

[larryfromnextdoor]

It's irrelevant anyway...Rolie isn't going back to Journey either. Neal/Journey burned him for both the original Journey reunion AND Abraxas Pool....Why would he want to be thrown in that situation again? Chalfant can't even get him to do a Storm album...Journey style music isn't what he seems to want to do.

What happened around Abraxas Pool? I got that album ages ago.

i was thinking of abraxos pool when u chimed in,, it was great,, gregs voice is just cool,, when i hear black magic on the raido , i think ,, that dude was the co creator of journey,, ya know,, like to know what he still has,, his solo album sounds like pool,,,!!!

[StyxCollector]

When Neal dumped Gregg and Chalfant to reunite with Perry, he also abandoned Abraxas Pool.

I always wondered why that project went DOA.

[larryfromnextdoor]

When Neal dumped Gregg and Chalfant to reunite with Perry, he also abandoned Abraxas Pool.

I always wondered why that project went DOA.

i always thought it was another of neals one off projects like hsas,,, do an album,, and quick tour,, keep busy,,

[yak]

There was a drastic change in their music when Steve Perry joined the band, and it became much more successful. There was another big change between Departure and Escape, and that again was more successful. I don't agree with you about the changes in ROR and TBF being bad, but that's just a matter of personal taste.

Journey was a rock band, first and foremost. When Perry arrived, he took control, and it became more of a pop oriented band. ROR and TBF weren't that successful. TBF was stopped in its tracks when Perry became a no-show, and derailed everything.

The short lived 80's Journey was controlled by Perry, and it made money. But it wasn't a rock band. Maybe the money blinded the band members. Neal's probably kicking himself for having let go of his own band and basically handing it over to a control freak.

[Dano]

Journey was a rock band, first and foremost. When Perry arrived, he took control, and it became more of a pop oriented band. ROR and TBF weren't that successful. TBF was stopped in its tracks when Perry became a no-show, and derailed everything.

I beg to differ with you here. Raised on Radio did very well. It sold several million and had as many hit singles as the albums before it. It's obvious you have disdain for Perry. Those that do usually go for the ROR angle. Was it a less-than-wonderful time in Journey history, with Smith and Valory's firings and Perry's control? Absolutely, but it doesn't take away from the fact that the album did do very well. Yes, it's totally different from anything else in the Journey catalog (at least since Infinity) but it is one of my favorites.

Trial By Fire also did extremely well, given the circumstances. I was working in a record shop part-time and let me tell you, Sony was putting the full-court press with promotion and the remastered (partial) back catalog. The album debuted at #3, went platinum in short order, and WYLAW got them their first Grammy nomination, not to mention being a smash pop hit. Name one other band from their peers that's been able to do that since their 70's/80's heyday. You can't, because there are none. As much as I love Styx, REO, Foreigner, etc., only Journey was able to come back in a big way. Don't forget that's when grunge/alternative was at it's saturation point, and Marilyn Manson was enjoying his biggest success. That makes Journey's feat all the more amazing.

[conversationpc]

Trial By Fire also did extremely well, given the circumstances. I was working in a record shop part-time and let me tell you, Sony was putting the full-court press with promotion and the remastered (partial) back catalog. The album debuted at #3, went platinum in short order, and WYLAW got them their first Grammy nomination, not to mention being a smash pop hit. Name one other band from their peers that's been able to do that since their 70's/80's heyday. You can't, because there are none. As much as I love Styx, REO, Foreigner, etc., only Journey was able to come back in a big way.

Aerosmith?

[A Fire Inside]

Aerosmith, U2 and Bon Jovi are about it.

And Bon Jovi only because their singer doesn't look 70.

[EightyRock]

Aerosmith didn't do it on their own, though. They had to be tag-teamed with RunDMC to get noticed again.

[brandonx76]

Aerosmith didn't do it on their own, though. They had to be tag-teamed with RunDMC to get noticed again.

It is interesting the various factors of "revived careers" from rock bands over the years...Probably the most amazing recovery, from a record selling p.o.v, has been Santana's...