Discuss this...

[A Fire Inside]

Deserves way more credit than he gets, and I hate when people bash him.

Hear, hear.

[StyxCollector]

As for ROR....well, no disrespect to Smith and Valory...but Perry made the right decision. It was 1986 and Journey needed a modern, contemporary sound. This wasn't the time for throwback, 70s rock - so the simple drumming, the heavy reliance on keyboards and the glorious voice high in the mix made total sense the radio stations and the market at the time.

Let's face it...every major rock band in the mid-80s did much the same thing. Take Queen... Heart... Foreigner...John Waite...Don Henley....all of these rock/AOR acts went for a smooth, slightly synthetic production.

Smith just wasn't cut out for mid-80s rock - whereas say Roger Taylor was happy to adapt. So let's not keep portraying Smith as a victim of the megalomania of Perry.

Anyway...just my opinion.

I'm sorry, but Steve Smith is one of the best AND most versatile drummers - and was back then, too. He could play simple 4/4 just as well as anyone else. He was sacked IMHO for no really good reason.

[Jeremey fan forever]

Other musicians may be able to play the notes and make the song sound right, but listening to Perry's solo tour -- you will definitely miss Neal IF you are a fan of the band and not just the singer. I think the casual concert goers wouldn't care (like they don't care now about JSS), but the real Journey fan would have just as hard of a time losing Neal as they did losing Perry.

I dunno... ever since this whole Augeri situation started, I've really been missing Perry.

Oh, yeah, that's true! Schon does make a difference for Perry! That guitarist Perry had on FLOSM was fucking awful. I like a couple songs on there, and Perry is great, but that guitarist (was it Brewster?) killed that album IMHO.

[fred_journeyman]

Tribute bands show us that, even though they didn't WRITE the music, others CAN play like Neal, Jon, Smitty, and Ross.

I'm not really sure about that. Musicians don't just play notes. They finesse their instruments. I haven't heard a tribute band yet where the guitarist plays like Neal, or Smitty.

It's obviously a matter of taste to some degree, but if anyone could play like Neal, or Smitty, or (you name the musician), then they probably wouldn't be in tribute bands. It's not just the playing, but it's the creativity that counts.

When talking about Rob Halford and Judas Priest, Sebastian Bach made the comment that while Ripper could replicate Halford's sound, did he have Halford's "heart?" The answer is no. That doesn't mean Ripper wasn't/isn't a talented singer. He's just not Halford.

[MartyMoffatt]

I'm a fan of Jimmy Barnes (Australian rock god) but I'd have to say that by far the best album he's done was Freight Train Heart, which just happens to have been mostly written by, produced by and played on by Schon and Cain. Released in the late 80's without all the synth stuff that's on ROR (so it could be done in the 80's) its a timeless album that's a real classic. Because its so much better than anything that Barnes has done before or since, I'd have to say that Schon and Cain were the major part of that success, and I think its the same with Journey.

Steve Perry's solo albums do nothing for me I'm afraid. Without the musicianship and songwriting combination that Schon and Cain added to the mix, Perry just becomes a very good crooner. I know others will disagree, so don't bash too hard. Its just my opinion.

Marty

[Anders]

I'm a fan of Jimmy Barnes (Australian rock god) but I'd have to say that by far the best album he's done was Freight Train Heart, which just happens to have been mostly written by, produced by and played on by Schon and Cain. Released in the late 80's without all the synth stuff that's on ROR (so it could be done in the 80's) its a timeless album that's a real classic. Because its so much better than anything that Barnes has done before or since, I'd have to say that Schon and Cain were the major part of that success, and I think its the same with Journey.

Steve Perry's solo albums do nothing for me I'm afraid. Without the musicianship and songwriting combination that Schon and Cain added to the mix, Perry just becomes a very good crooner. I know others will disagree, so don't bash too hard. Its just my opinion.

Marty

That IS a great album. And there´s no denying that several tracks are very Journeyalistic.

[Matthew]

As for ROR....well, no disrespect to Smith and Valory...but Perry made the right decision. It was 1986 and Journey needed a modern, contemporary sound. This wasn't the time for throwback, 70s rock - so the simple drumming, the heavy reliance on keyboards and the glorious voice high in the mix made total sense the radio stations and the market at the time.

Let's face it...every major rock band in the mid-80s did much the same thing. Take Queen... Heart... Foreigner...John Waite...Don Henley....all of these rock/AOR acts went for a smooth, slightly synthetic production.

Smith just wasn't cut out for mid-80s rock - whereas say Roger Taylor was happy to adapt. So let's not keep portraying Smith as a victim of the megalomania of Perry.

Anyway...just my opinion.

I'm sorry, but Steve Smith is one of the best AND most versatile drummers - and was back then, too. He could play simple 4/4 just as well as anyone else. He was sacked IMHO for no really good reason.

Oh...I wasn't saying that Smith was incapable of playing a simple 4/4...of course he is...he's obviously a superb drummer. But from what I've read he was totally resistant to playing 'like a drum machine' in the early ROR sessions. So perhaps he had ego issues at that time too? Maybe it was 'all about him' and not the group in '85?

Wasn't Dunbar sacked for the same reason? He resisted attempts to simplify his style too, didn't he?

I'm just saying that Smith wasn't necessarily victimized...and in any case...we're talking about a decision made 20 years ago...so I'm sure everyone's over it by now.

[Matthew]

Tribute bands show us that, even though they didn't WRITE the music, others CAN play like Neal, Jon, Smitty, and Ross.

I'm not really sure about that. Musicians don't just play notes. They finesse their instruments. I haven't heard a tribute band yet where the guitarist plays like Neal, or Smitty.

It's obviously a matter of taste to some degree, but if anyone could play like Neal, or Smitty, or (you name the musician), then they probably wouldn't be in tribute bands. It's not just the playing, but it's the creativity that counts.

When talking about Rob Halford and Judas Priest, Sebastian Bach made the comment that while Ripper could replicate Halford's sound, did he have Halford's "heart?" The answer is no. That doesn't mean Ripper wasn't/isn't a talented singer. He's just not Halford.

I guess it's easier to copy Schon's style than it is to replicate Perry - but I agree that were a guitarist to be as original, distinctive and creative as Schon he'd wouldn't bother imitating him....he'd be a success in his own right.

I reckon Schon is just as irreplaceable as Perry. He's the 'other voice' of the band and it just wouldn't be Journey without him.

[cetera]

Anyway..what about poor old Dunbar? Anyone still upset he got fired 27 years ago?

Only the underage girls who used to queue outside his room....

[cetera]

I can hear a stampede of Loons heading this way...

Hmmm..... I wonder what the 'collective' word would be for 'Loons'?

A 'Perry' of Loons maybe?!?

[NealIsGod]

I can hear a stampede of Loons heading this way...

Hmmm..... I wonder what the 'collective' word would be for 'Loons'?

A 'Perry' of Loons maybe?!?

A Krisper of Loons.

[SusieP]

I reckon Schon is just as irreplaceable as Perry. He's the 'other voice' of the band and it just wouldn't be Journey without him.

What a good way of putting it.

[treetopovskaya]

So, and NO disrespect for Neal and the other musicians, it really IS the voice that makes the difference.

However, with that said something was missing on ROR without Ross and Smitty, so that contradicts everything I just said, right?

Hey, I said this was a discussion

.

Not really a contradiction IMO.
Isn't it the blend of all of them together that created magic? That and that the 'planets were all aligned' during the years many of us refer to as the 'classic Journey line-up?' All of them together made a fine blend.
When they are not all together, they are still quality ingredients, but not quite the same as when they were together then.

Also the songs had a lot to do with it. When the Perry, Schon, Cain team were all in sync with each other, their songs were part of the magic mix.
Separate them and it's the same thing, still good without each other - but better together.

For example, some of Perry's solo stuff has some nice guitar on, but it's not Neal, is it?
It's hard to clearly explain what I feel but I hope I succeeded.

susiep,

exactly! you took the thought right out of my head! i totally get what you're saying... i feel that way too! };C))

~wendy

[conversationpc]

Other musicians may be able to play the notes and make the song sound right, but listening to Perry's solo tour -- you will definitely miss Neal IF you are a fan of the band and not just the singer. I think the casual concert goers wouldn't care (like they don't care now about JSS), but the real Journey fan would have just as hard of a time losing Neal as they did losing Perry.

I dunno... ever since this whole Augeri situation started, I've really been missing Perry.

Oh, yeah, that's true! Schon does make a difference for Perry! That guitarist Perry had on FLOSM was fucking awful. I like a couple songs on there, and Perry is great, but that guitarist (was it Brewster?) killed that album IMHO.

Yes, it was Lincoln Brewster. I thought he did a great job on that album. I didn't see the tour, so I can't comment on his live performance but his playing on the album is at least decent.

[fred_journeyman]

...so the simple drumming...

I'm sorry, I really take issue with that! Listen to the tracks on ROR in which Smith laid down the drum tracks, then listen to the London's drumming. HUGE difference. Smith took basic music that was done in 4/4 and created a beautifully artful soul to the songs. He didn't just do 4 beats on the hi-hat, one on the snare and two on the bass.

Smith was also the guy who gave Don't Stop Believin' it's intricate drumming pattern, as well as numerous other Journey tunes. This guy had a JAZZ/FUSION background before he got into rock. There was nothing simple about the way he played; only the way he made it look.

Smith used a great deal more finesse, in my opinion and I would have loved to have heard what he would have done with the entire album.

[fred_journeyman]

Oh...I wasn't saying that Smith was incapable of playing a simple 4/4...of course he is...he's obviously a superb drummer. But from what I've read he was totally resistant to playing 'like a drum machine' in the early ROR sessions. So perhaps he had ego issues at that time too? Maybe it was 'all about him' and not the group in '85?...

Well then, this is different than what you said previously about "the simple drumming" needing to go.

If I was Smith on drums, I would have had a problem with replicating a drum machine too. In fact, as a drummer, if someone simply wants me to come in to the studio and lay down a 4/4 beat with no variation, then it would be much better AND cheaper for them to use a drum machine. Smith is an artist and as such, should be allowed to create, just like Perry and the rest were able to do. Cain made some comment about this in BTM regarding "drum machines."

It seems like they WANTED simple drumming and that's essentially what they got with ROR, except for the few cuts that Smith DID record on and those cuts stand out HEADS ABOVE all others on ROR.

[fred_journeyman]

...That guitarist Perry had on FLOSM was fucking awful. I like a couple songs on there, and Perry is great, but that guitarist (was it Brewster?) killed that album IMHO.

Well, in defense of Lincoln Brewster (who happens to be the worship leader at a very large church not more than two blocks from my house), I remember talking with him very briefly about the sessions for Perry's FTLOSM. It was pretty intensive. Lincoln would spend hours recording his solos for each song into a recording machine. He would take it to Perry. Perry would listen, make adjustments, then send Lincoln back to do more recording. This went on for hours or days until he had solos that Perry approved. By the way, this is NOT a bash against Perry at all. Lincoln simply explained it (and I believe he explained it like this in an interview somewhere as well). There was no grudge; it's just the way it was working for Perry.

I guess my point is, is that ultimately Perry got the solos he wanted. I'm not sure if you're saying that the solos sucked or his playing sucked. However, Perry thought he was extremely versatile as a guitarist, or he never would have hand picked him.

[larryfromnextdoor]

Other musicians may be able to play the notes and make the song sound right, but listening to Perry's solo tour -- you will definitely miss Neal IF you are a fan of the band and not just the singer. I think the casual concert goers wouldn't care (like they don't care now about JSS), but the real Journey fan would have just as hard of a time losing Neal as they did losing Perry.

I dunno... ever since this whole Augeri situation started, I've really been missing Perry.

Oh, yeah, that's true! Schon does make a difference for Perry! That guitarist Perry had on FLOSM was fucking awful. I like a couple songs on there, and Perry is great, but that guitarist (was it Brewster?) killed that album IMHO.

l. brewster is a MONSTER guitar player,, scary good!! it wasnt his solo album , he was kept on a leash by the "producer" ... check out that live video going around,, i would bet u the biggest chicken fry in texas that if that album suffered it had nothing to do with the hired guitar player that was directed ever step of the way by the singer /songwriter...

[chad]

Lincoln Brewster was awesome on the FTLOSM tour. I saw the concert both nights in in los angeles. I went with a few other friends who are guitarist and lincoln did a stellar job. Not saying he's equal to Neal, but he was awesome nonetheless.

Steve Smith didn't complete the ROR CD not because he wasn't cabale, etc....from what I read it was simply because he didn't want to go foward with the more Pop sounding songs. If you remember at that time, it was a different direction for Journey and there were some issues the band memebers were dealing with. Smith and Ross being 86'd was the outcome.

Steve Smith is without a doubt one of the top 5 drummers, along with Simon Phillps, Terry Bozio, Jeff Pacarro, Steve Gadd, etc. Any of these drummers will agree. Just wanted to set the record straight that his departure on ROR had nothing to do with his talents. Miike Beard (his replacement) was a solid studio recording drummer.

[larryfromnextdoor]

Lincoln Brewster was awesome on the FTLOSM tour. I saw the concert both nights in in los angeles. I went with a few other friends who are guitarist and lincoln did a stellar job. Not saying he's equal to Neal, but he was awesome nonetheless.

Steve Smith didn't complete the ROR CD not because he wasn't cabale, etc....from what I read it was simply because he didn't want to go foward with the more Pop sounding songs. If you remember at that time, it was a different direction for Journey and there were some issues the band memebers were dealing with. Smith and Ross being 86'd was the outcome.

Steve Smith is without a doubt one of the top 5 drummers, along with Simon Phillps, Terry Bozio, Jeff Pacarro, Steve Gadd, etc. Any of these drummers will agree. Just wanted to set the record straight that his departure on ROR had nothing to do with his talents. Miike Beard (his replacement) was a solid studio recording drummer.

amen,, i think HH is full of beans!! mike beard wasnt bad, he was good and sturdy,, not as technical as smith , but a powerhouse anyway.

[Matthew]

...so the simple drumming...

I'm sorry, I really take issue with that! Listen to the tracks on ROR in which Smith laid down the drum tracks, then listen to the London's drumming. HUGE difference. Smith took basic music that was done in 4/4 and created a beautifully artful soul to the songs. He didn't just do 4 beats on the hi-hat, one on the snare and two on the bass.

Smith was also the guy who gave Don't Stop Believin' it's intricate drumming pattern, as well as numerous other Journey tunes. This guy had a JAZZ/FUSION background before he got into rock. There was nothing simple about the way he played; only the way he made it look.

Smith used a great deal more finesse, in my opinion and I would have loved to have heard what he would have done with the entire album.

Have you got a bootleg of early ROR recordings with Smith? Does such a thing exist? I'd love to hear that....

As for DSB etc...I didn't question Smith's ability to play in an intricate or imaginative way.

[Matthew]

Oh...I wasn't saying that Smith was incapable of playing a simple 4/4...of course he is...he's obviously a superb drummer. But from what I've read he was totally resistant to playing 'like a drum machine' in the early ROR sessions. So perhaps he had ego issues at that time too? Maybe it was 'all about him' and not the group in '85?...

Well then, this is different than what you said previously about "the simple drumming" needing to go.

If I was Smith on drums, I would have had a problem with replicating a drum machine too. In fact, as a drummer, if someone simply wants me to come in to the studio and lay down a 4/4 beat with no variation, then it would be much better AND cheaper for them to use a drum machine. Smith is an artist and as such, should be allowed to create, just like Perry and the rest were able to do. Cain made some comment about this in BTM regarding "drum machines."

It seems like they WANTED simple drumming and that's essentially what they got with ROR, except for the few cuts that Smith DID record on and those cuts stand out HEADS ABOVE all others on ROR.

I think we've had a misunderstanding. I meant that ROR had a basic, drum-machine sort of sound and approach...that's what I meant by "simple drumming"....and I also said that Journey wanted this...and Smith didn't.

My original point was that almost all AOR drumming in the mid-eighties either was or sounded like a drum machine.

If Smith was too much of an artist to adapt to the way things were going then...well, it worked out alright in the end...he went off to play jazz...the whole drum machine era went out of fashion...he came back to Journey and made a pile of cash...and went back to his jazz career.

So why are do many people cast him in the role of a helpless victim, a put upon artist who somehow found himself in a wildly commercial stadium rock band who then suffocated his 'art'?

[NealIsGod]

Steve Smith was too good for Journey in 1985. Simple as that.

[Matthew]

Steve Smith was too good for Journey in 1985. Simple as that.

Can you name me one AOR/mainstream rock act who were successful in 1985 who would have allowed Smith freedom to express himself?

[NealIsGod]

Steve Smith was too good for Journey in 1985. Simple as that.

Can you name me one AOR/mainstream rock act who were successful in 1985 who would have allowed Smith freedom to express himself?

Sure, anyone who didn't use a damn drum machine. AC/DC, Bon Jovi, Van Halen...

[lights1961]

MHO-----you can play guitar and sound like someone...but can never duplicate it to the tee... Neal has his own vibe with that guitar... same as any voice out there.... Rolie was his own, Perry his own Augeri his own and now JSS... tribute bands are just that---playing the music of their heros!!

Rick

[MartyMoffatt]

Steve Smith was too good for Journey in 1985. Simple as that.

Can you name me one AOR/mainstream rock act who were successful in 1985 who would have allowed Smith freedom to express himself?

Yeah, RUSH. Except the drumming position was already filled by a more than capable drummer

[conversationpc]

Steve Smith was too good for Journey in 1985. Simple as that.

Can you name me one AOR/mainstream rock act who were successful in 1985 who would have allowed Smith freedom to express himself?

Yeah, RUSH. Except the drumming position was already filled by a more than capable drummer

Neil Peart is a HUMAN drum machine...Actually drum GOD is more like it.

[Matthew]

Steve Smith was too good for Journey in 1985. Simple as that.

Can you name me one AOR/mainstream rock act who were successful in 1985 who would have allowed Smith freedom to express himself?

Yeah, RUSH. Except the drumming position was already filled by a more than capable drummer

Damn...I was sure no-one would think of a good example!

[Matthew]

Steve Smith was too good for Journey in 1985. Simple as that.

Can you name me one AOR/mainstream rock act who were successful in 1985 who would have allowed Smith freedom to express himself?

Yeah, RUSH. Except the drumming position was already filled by a more than capable drummer

Neil Peart is a HUMAN drum machine...Actually drum GOD is more like it.

Yes - he is the absolute King of Drums.

I saw Rush a couple of years ago and boy...he's still got it. Unbelievable performance.