Will Augeri officially resign? PLUS a Bush/War debate..

[conversationpc]

...but he didn't do to this country what Bush has done, "because that bad man went after my daddy...".

It could be argued that Clinton did more to his country than Bush has done. That's a long argument, though.

Politics & religion & Abortion & Classic Rock band's lead singer's are issues that will always have at least two sides. And there's rarely a clear winner in any of the arguements.

[Lula]

I agreed with Clinton's policies a helluva lot more than I do W's. My opinion of W has nothing to do with my opinion of Clinton- W is running things, or at least appears to be. My contempt is with George W Bush, not Clinton.

Just trying to see if you can be honest and say that Clinton wasn't all that skank-free himself. Even though I disagreed with the guy on most issues, the country still did okay under his watch. However, the guy is a contemptible individual.

I am am honest person by nature Clinton is certainly not fault free; however, I'll take his faults over W's anytime. We, as many here, do not share the same ideology, no biggie, I still like you .

[Barb]

Just trying to see if you can be honest and say that Clinton wasn't all that skank-free himself. Even though I disagreed with the guy on most issues, the country still did okay under his watch. However, the guy is a contemptible individual.

That is because he was passive and did not confront problems. When you actually confront an issue, things are no longer calm and quiet.

[NealIsGod]

That is because he was passive and did not confront problems. When you actually confront an issue, things are no longer calm and quiet.

Just ask Deano.

[Barb]

That is because he was passive and did not confront problems. When you actually confront an issue, things are no longer calm and quiet.

Just ask Deano.

Exactly!

[Matthew]

I would just like to say that the Muslins believe this is payback for the Crusades and all of history. They have been attacking our interests since '79 when Iran took our hostages,and that goof ball Carter sat there. Reagan raises his hand to be sworn in, and they split the TV screen showing our hostages taking off. Must be something about those cowboys. Then there was the hit on the barricks in Lebanon, the guy in the wheelchair pushed off the ship and the partial hit on one of the Towers in '93. As far as I am concerned many terroroist leaders have been captured and many killed. It may only slow them down awhile,but I believe their monetary structure has been descimated and they are on the run or in a cave @ 10,000 ft in N Pakistan. Other countries are also getting hit and have started to fight back and share info. As far as WMD,what was in the convoy of 55 semi's that Russian special ops crossed into Syria with as we entered the south.It was shown on Fox news.The Israelis watched it get buried in Lebanon. Russia just loves to sell to ANYONE. Saddam harbored terrorists and paid $25,000 to the family of any killed. What was Abu Nidal doing in Iraq? Oops Saddam was having a bad hair day and shot him dead at point blank range. If you think Saddam wasn't trying everyway he could to get WMD with his arch enemy Iran building nukes, then you are not very aware. We will be at war for the rest of my life. Amen

Thanks for clearing that up. I thought George Bush created terrorism by invading Iraq.

Iraq definitely had a brutal dictatorship before the US invasion - but did the country have any terrorist activity within its borders? No. Since the invasion not a day has gone by without a car bomb or a suicide mission. Foreign extremists have flooded into the country...and Iran (an Islamic state unlike Iraq) now has more influence in the interior of the country than it ever has done before....which is a key reason for the conflict between the Shias and the Sunni Muslims...which is tearing the country apart.

So Bush's 'War on Terror' is going really well over there.

As for Squirt's points which 'cleared things up':

"I would just like to say that the Muslins believe this is payback for the Crusades and all of history."

Are you talking about individual terrorist groups? Or the Islamic world in general? Either way - this comment is a sweeping generalisation. Different Arab terrorist groups have different motivations and objectives....

Hamas are focused on the creation of a Palestinian State - and have resorted to terrorist tactics because Israel is armed to the teeth by the USA and Israel routinely terrorizes the communities outside its borders. What other options do the Lebanese, the Iraqis, the Palestinians have?

If the government of your country was unable to defend you and your family...what would you do? Just sit there and take it?

Al-Zaqawi's terrorist group was driven to resist the USA's occupation of Iraq.

Hezbollah is funded and armed by Iran - and they're primary concern is Israel.

But you're right...at the core of all Arab terrorism is a fierce resentment about centuries of humiliation and interference by Britain and America. Yet even so - some Muslim countries are moderate and benign. Are we including the moderate and secular Egyptian government in all this talk of 'Muslims'?

"They have been attacking our interests since '79 when Iran took our hostages..."

The people of Iran had a revolution to overthrow the Shah...who was pretty much a puppet of the US. We might hate the Ayatollah and all he represents...but IT IS THEIR COUNTRY. How well does the average American respond to a foreigner telling them how to live? So why did we feel we had the 'right' to control the internal affairs of Iran?

"Then there was the hit on the barricks in Lebanon..."

Yes - the USA was in Lebanon primarily to protect Israeli interests. Earlier that same year Ariel Sharon (the former Israeli President) was a commander of a unit that massacred an entire refuge camp. At least the 'terrorists' attacked a military target and not hundreds of women and children like the US-supported Israeli army did.

"Russia just loves to sell to ANYONE."

As do Britain and the United States. Let's not forget who armed Saddam Hussein in the first place.

The fact is....Arab terrorism is a RESPONSE to the policies of the US and the UK. Yet I read so many posts which seem to suggest that the agression toward the USA came out of nowhere...that it is simply a hatred of 'infidels'. I reckon we in the West ought to take at least some responsibility for the horrors and conflicts in this region over the decades.

[conversationpc]

The fact is....Arab terrorism is a RESPONSE to the policies of the US and the UK. Yet I read so many posts which seem to suggest that the agression toward the USA came out of nowhere...that it is simply a hatred of 'infidels'. I reckon we in the West ought to take at least some responsibility for the horrors and conflicts in this region over the decades.

This statement is mostly untrue. They may not like our policies but, in the end, they want us dead for WHO WE ARE, not our policies. In extreme Islam, they see three ways of dealing with "infidels".

1 - Kill them.

2 - Subjugate and tax them.

3 - If unable to do either of the above two, sign a peace treaty until you gain an advantage and then do either #1 or #2.

Hell, these nutjobs even kill their own people in the most brutal ways. In Russia, they shot school children in the back as they fled for their lives. Schools have been set on fire simply because girls attended and men blocked the exits so they could not get out. These things have nothing to do with policy. They have to do with the radical Muslim's view of others who do not practice their religion. Infidels are good for nothing except to either enslave or kill, preferably the latter in their eyes.

Policy, schmolicy. They want us dead simply because we don't submit to their almighty Allah. All the other reasons they give are nothing more than window dressing to the real issue. We could change our policy and it would still be only a matter of time before they are knocking on our door again, threatening an end to Israel and the West.

[Lula]

Well said and thought out, Matthew. Broad generalizations scare me. Not every person from a certain political group, culture, religion, etc... are cut from he same cookie cutter- so to speak. There are so many factions of any one given group; all with good and bad and some reactionary.

[conversationpc]

It's interesting that none of the 9/11 conspiracy theorists have commented on my post on the previous page in regards to the collapse of WTC tower 7.

[Barb]

Matthew, maybe you should watch this video when it comes out. Islamic fascists are not attacking only the west.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 7603221198

[Barb]

This clip explains exactly what Jihad means - http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 7936521581

[treetopovskaya]

Well said and thought out, Matthew. Broad generalizations scare me. Not every person from a certain political group, culture, religion, etc... are cut from he same cookie cutter- so to speak. There are so many factions of any one given group; all with good and bad and some reactionary.

that scares me too lula.

is anyone feeling REALLY crappy this week? it's been such a long & sad week... almost dream like. meaning i feel like i've been half here mostly... and i feel the need to just be at home. weird... or maybe not. sigh.

i dunno why i even posted anything here. i get stressed out when people talk politics or religion. }:C)

[Lula]

It's interesting that none of the 9/11 conspiracy theorists have commented on my post on the previous page in regards to the collapse of WTC tower 7.

I have seen a few different films documenting the theory and I think the conspiracy argument is certainly compelling; however, I've never believed our govenment would commit such an atrocity, no matter how corrupt they are.

[conversationpc]

Well said and thought out, Matthew. Broad generalizations scare me. Not every person from a certain political group, culture, religion, etc... are cut from he same cookie cutter- so to speak. There are so many factions of any one given group; all with good and bad and some reactionary.

No one's making any broad generalizations other than ALL terrorists and radical Muslims want to attack and kill Jews and those in the West. This element MAYBE makes up 10% of all Muslims, if the percent is even that high. Unfortunately, that 10% speaks very loudly and violently.

[Saint John]

I would just like to say that the Muslins believe this is payback for the Crusades and all of history. They have been attacking our interests since '79 when Iran took our hostages,and that goof ball Carter sat there. Reagan raises his hand to be sworn in, and they split the TV screen showing our hostages taking off. Must be something about those cowboys. Then there was the hit on the barricks in Lebanon, the guy in the wheelchair pushed off the ship and the partial hit on one of the Towers in '93. As far as I am concerned many terroroist leaders have been captured and many killed. It may only slow them down awhile,but I believe their monetary structure has been descimated and they are on the run or in a cave @ 10,000 ft in N Pakistan. Other countries are also getting hit and have started to fight back and share info. As far as WMD,what was in the convoy of 55 semi's that Russian special ops crossed into Syria with as we entered the south.It was shown on Fox news.The Israelis watched it get buried in Lebanon. Russia just loves to sell to ANYONE. Saddam harbored terrorists and paid $25,000 to the family of any killed. What was Abu Nidal doing in Iraq? Oops Saddam was having a bad hair day and shot him dead at point blank range. If you think Saddam wasn't trying everyway he could to get WMD with his arch enemy Iran building nukes, then you are not very aware. We will be at war for the rest of my life. Amen

Thanks for clearing that up. I thought George Bush created terrorism by invading Iraq.

Iraq definitely had a brutal dictatorship before the US invasion - but did the country have any terrorist activity within its borders (or sponsor terrorists based in the West?) No. But since the invasion not a day has gone by without a car bomb or a suicide mission. Foreign extremists have flooded into the country...and Iran (an Islamic state unlike Iraq) now has more influence in the interior of the country than it ever has done before....which is a key reason for the conflict between the Shias and the Sunni Muslims...which is tearing the country apart.

So Bush's 'War on Terror' is going really well over there.

As for Squirt's points which 'cleared things up':

"I would just like to say that the Muslins believe this is payback for the Crusades and all of history."

Are you talking about individual terrorist groups? Or the Islamic world in general? Either way - this comment is a sweeping generalisation. Different Arab terrorist groups have different motivations and objectives....

Hamas are focused on the creation of a Palestinian State - and have resorted to terrorist tactics because Israel is armed to the teeth by the USA and Israel routinely terrorizes the communities outside its borders. What other options do the Lebanese, the Iraqis, the Palestinians have?

If the government of your country was unable to defend you and your family...what would you do? Just sit there and take it?

Al-Zaqawi's terrorist group was driven to resist the USA's occupation of Iraq.

Hezbollah is funded and armed by Iran - and they're primary concern is Israel.

But you're right...at the core of all Arab terrorism is a fierce resentment about centuries of humiliation and interference by Britain and America. Yet even so - some Muslim countries are moderate and benign. Are we including the moderate and secular Egyptian government in all this talk of 'Muslims'?

"They have been attacking our interests since '79 when Iran took our hostages..."

The people of Iran had a revolution to overthrow the Shah...who was pretty much a puppet of the US. We might hate the Ayatollah and all he represents...but IT IS THEIR COUNTRY. How well does the average American respond to a foreigner telling them how to live? So why did we feel we had the 'right' to control the internal affairs of Iran?

"Then there was the hit on the barricks in Lebanon..."

Yes - the USA was in Lebanon primarily to protect Israeli interests. Earlier that same year Ariel Sharon (the former Israeli President) was a commander of a unit that massacred an entire refuge camp. At least the 'terrorists' attacked a military target and not hundreds of women and children like the US-supported Israeli army did.

"Russia just loves to sell to ANYONE."

As do Britain and the United States. Let's not forget who armed Saddam Hussein in the first place.

The fact is....Arab terrorism is a RESPONSE to the policies of the US and the UK. Yet I read so many posts which seem to suggest that the agression toward the USA came out of nowhere...that it is simply a hatred of 'infidels'. I reckon we in the West ought to take at least some responsibility for the horrors and conflicts in this region over the decades.

You've clearly found many instances to sympathize with these deranged fuckers. I'll agree with a lot of what you say, but answer this: Isn't it true that these so called "Muslims", who are trying to kill "infidels" in Iraq, are actually the ones killing the vast majority of civilians? Lula keeps harping about all of the civilians being killed....when in reality it's the insurgency, who are "supposedly" sworn to kill all infidels, who are killing their Muslim "brothers and sisters" for no other purpose than to create a civil war. And this is somehow Bush's fault? We're supposed to sit idly by as this unstable place festering with people who want us dead congregate and plot? Remember this too: The 9/11 plans were already complete before Clinton left office, and he did NOTHING at all to upset these people. So your logic that if we just leave them alone, they'll go away bullshit is bunk...plain and simple. They've hated us for quite some time...they're just outspoken about it now. They hate us no more or less now than they did 5, 10 or 50 years ago. After 9/11 the war was to be on American soil. Bush changed the war front and has probably saved American civilian lives by doing so. Decisions made after the start of the war have been less than perfect, but no war goes according to plan...they're always unpredictable. The real war we're losing is the propaganda war, mainly because people find ways to sympathize with a group of deranged individuals, who if given the chance, would slit your throat on the spot.

[conversationpc]

I have seen a few different films documenting the theory and I think the conspiracy argument is certainly compelling; however, I've never believed our govenment would commit such an atrocity, no matter how corrupt they are.

I have seen all the conspiracy theories and, while some of them seem credible on the surface, almost all, if not all of them, fall apart after closer scrutiny. These theories rely on quotes taken out of context, early research which was not complete, etc.

For instance, there is one quote by an eyewitness of the plane that hit the Pentagon where it looks like he is saying that it wasn't a plane after all, but a guided missile. What they don't tell you is that immediately preceding the part where he says it looked like a guided missile, he also says that it was an American Airlines jet, blah, blah, blah, that looked like a guided missile. They take the second part of the quote and completely cut out the first part.

[Lula]

Well said and thought out, Matthew. Broad generalizations scare me. Not every person from a certain political group, culture, religion, etc... are cut from he same cookie cutter- so to speak. There are so many factions of any one given group; all with good and bad and some reactionary.

No one's making any broad generalizations other than ALL terrorists and radical Muslims want to attack and kill Jews and those in the West. This element MAYBE makes up 10% of all Muslims, if the percent is even that high. Unfortunately, that 10% speaks very loudly and violently.

Dave, I'm not accusing anyone of making general statements, I'm saying that generalizations about people scare me. And of course, not all terrorists are radical Muslims.... semantics

[conversationpc]

The real war we're losing is the propaganda war, mainly because people find ways to sympathize with a group of deranged individuals, who if given the chance, would slit your throat on the spot.

Correction. They would do more than slit your throat. They would saw your whole damn head off, all the while chanting "Praise Allah!!! Allah is great."

Anyway...A-FRIGGIN'-MEN!

[conversationpc]

Dave, I'm not accusing anyone of making general statements, I'm saying that generalizations about people scare me. And of course, not all terrorists are radical Muslims.... semantics

No, not all terrorists are radical Muslims but MOST of them are. You can find a few that are not, like Timothy McVeigh and the Una-Bomber, but they are few and far between compared to radical Islamic terrorists.

[Saint John]

It's interesting that none of the 9/11 conspiracy theorists have commented on my post on the previous page in regards to the collapse of WTC tower 7.

I have seen a few different films documenting the theory and I think the conspiracy argument is certainly compelling; however, I've never believed our govenment would commit such an atrocity, no matter how corrupt they are.

The above statement is EXACTLY why I respect your opinions, even though we disagree in many instances. A side note: Much of the conspiracy argument surrounding Tower 7 centers around Guilliani NOT going to a command post he specifically created for terrorist attacks. HOWEVER, ask yourself this: Would you go to the 18th story of a building to your "command post" when 2 buildings RIGHT NEXT TO IT just had airplanes flown into them? I didn't think so!! He improvised and moved the command post underground....a seemingly MUCH safer place!!

[Carlitto H@kk]

I am not even going to try and get in a political debate with any of you; I would get stewed
But I would like to share a story with you...

I have been in the AF for 16 years and have deployed in support of one middle east campaign or another 12 times. I was even fortunate to show up to Khobar 1 week after the towers bombing (due to airlift being tasked to Bosnia, thank God, because we we're relieving Eglin AFB and would've been in the main building that was hit.) Anyhow, in 2004 I went on that 12th trip to LSA Anaconda (Balad AB) in the heart of Iraq. In 6 months we averaged 3 rocket/mortar attacks a day. The biggest threats were IEDs left on roads to ambush convoys. Some clever ways these rebels hide these IEDs are trip wires, hiding explosives in trash; they've even gona as far as to hide explosives in dead animals left on roadsides. Add all that to the car bombs and unsuspecting Iraqi children they send to the gates with bags of food for the Coalition troops with explosives hidden in the bottom: And they don't wait until the child walks away. the innocent CHILD gets blown up too... Its a pretty 'violent' place to be right now. But, if you do go out into the communities, you would find out that 80% of the people there WANT our forces to help and WANT our government to help. You won't always hear it shouted out publically because that 20% that does not want us there, the ones still holding on to the old regime's faith and practices, are brutal and relentless. They will stop at nothing to do anything and everything they can to keep the Coalition and our 'influence' out of thier country.
A lot of Americans don't really care what goes on in a country thousands of miles away. But there are those of us that do care. Some of us even joined the military because of our beliefs, especially the belief in Freedom for anyone that wants it. Its pretty sad when your country is loaded with all that oil yet, other than the regime in charge and its cronies, the majority of the populace is dirt poor, starving and living in constant fear.
I sometimes hate that US Military is called upon to basically be 'security guards' for the entire planet but Iraq is one instance in which I think we DO need to be there and I am very proud that I have been (and will be again) a part of this on going war. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Those of us in the military (at least most of us, some thought it'd be a country club) signed up for this kind of stuff. We joined the military so that we could be a part of something this important. Don't cry and protest for us and the 3000 soldiers that have given thier lives for these beliefs. Honor them, pray for them and give them your support whenever you possibly can. Its because of all these brave men and woman that all of you will never need to worry about being drafted.
Pres. Bush got ambushed on his own turf w/i a few months of having the Presidency. He isn't the brighest of sorts but he has had to deal with a world climate and an enemy than any previous Administration. Think about it, it used to be that we knew our enemy and could devise simple plans for attack: Russia makes Nukes, We make more, we know what Iran is up to, we know what Korea is up to... Terrorists cells, religious extremists... They are practically invisible. And if Huessien was still in power, Iraq would be definitely be harboring and hiding terror divisions all over the country. Bin Laden would be staying at one of Saddam's palaces instead of hiding out in some rickety log cabin in but-fuck North Dakota watching ESPN and CNN on Direct TV

Fight all you want about "who knew what" and "who did what wrong" but the simple fact is that places like Iraq, Afghanistan and Korea need us there and we need to be there.

[Barb]

I am not even going to try and get in a political debate with any of you; I would get stewed
But I would like to share a story with you...

I have been in the AF for 16 years and have deployed in support of one middle east campaign or another 12 times. I was even fortunate to show up to Khobar 1 week after the towers bombing (due to airlift being tasked to Bosnia, thank God, because we we're relieving Eglin AFB and would've been in the main building that was hit.) Anyhow, in 2004 I went on that 12th trip to LSA Anaconda (Balad AB) in the heart of Iraq. In 6 months we averaged 3 rocket/mortar attacks a day. The biggest threats were IEDs left on roads to ambush convoys. Some clever ways these rebels hide these IEDs are trip wires, hiding explosives in trash; they've even gona as far as to hide explosives in dead animals left on roadsides. Add all that to the car bombs and unsuspecting Iraqi children they send to the gates with bags of food for the Coalition troops with explosives hidden in the bottom... Its a pretty 'violent' place to be right now. But, if you do go out into the communities, you would find out that 80% of the people there WANT our forces to help and WANT our government to help. You won't always hear it shouted out publically because that 20% that does not want us there, the ones still holding on to the old regime's faith and practices, are brutal and relentless. They will stop at nothing to do anything and everything they can to keep the Coalition and our 'influence' out of thier country.
A lot of Americans don't really care what goes on in a country thousands of miles away. But there are those of us that do care. Some of us even joined the military because of our beliefs, especially the belief in Freedom for anyone that wants it. Its pretty sad when your country is loaded with all that oil yet, other than the regime in charge and its cronies, the majority of the populace is dirt poor, starving and living in constant fear.
I sometimes hate that US Military is called upon to basically be 'security guards' for the entire planet but Iraq is one instance in which I think we DO need to be there and I am very proud that I have been (and will be again) a part of this on going war. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Those of us in the military (at least most of us, some thought it'd be a country club) signed up for this kind of stuff. We joined the military so that we could be a part of something this important. Don't cry and protest for us and the 3000 soldiers that have given thier lives for these beliefs. Honor them, pray for them and give them your support whenever you possibly can. Its because of all these brave men and woman that all of you will never need to worry about being drafted.
Pres. Bush got ambushed on his own turf w/i a few months of having the Presidency. He isn't the brighest of sorts but he has had to deal with a world climate and an enemy than any previous Administration. Think about it, it used to be that we knew our enemy and could devise simple plans for attack: Russia makes Nukes, We make more, we know what Iran is up to, we know what Korea is up to... Terrorists cells, religious extremists... They are practically invisible. And if Huessien was still in power, Iraq would be definitely be harboring and hiding terror divisions all over the country. Bin Laden would be staying at one of Saddam's palaces instead of hiding out in some rickety log cabin in but-fuck North Dakota watching ESPN and CNN on Direct TV

Fight all you want about "who knew what" and "who did what wrong" but the simple fact is that places like Iraq, Afghanistan and Korea need us there and we need to be there.

Another thing that doesn't get reported is that there are terrorists from Iran launching attack in Iraq right now as well. Thank you for your post and for your brave service to our Country!

[Saint John]

I am not even going to try and get in a political debate with any of you; I would get stewed
But I would like to share a story with you...

I have been in the AF for 16 years and have deployed in support of one middle east campaign or another 12 times. I was even fortunate to show up to Khobar 1 week after the towers bombing (due to airlift being tasked to Bosnia, thank God, because we we're relieving Eglin AFB and would've been in the main building that was hit.) Anyhow, in 2004 I went on that 12th trip to LSA Anaconda (Balad AB) in the heart of Iraq. In 6 months we averaged 3 rocket/mortar attacks a day. The biggest threats were IEDs left on roads to ambush convoys. Some clever ways these rebels hide these IEDs are trip wires, hiding explosives in trash; they've even gona as far as to hide explosives in dead animals left on roadsides. Add all that to the car bombs and unsuspecting Iraqi children they send to the gates with bags of food for the Coalition troops with explosives hidden in the bottom... Its a pretty 'violent' place to be right now. But, if you do go out into the communities, you would find out that 80% of the people there WANT our forces to help and WANT our government to help. You won't always hear it shouted out publically because that 20% that does not want us there, the ones still holding on to the old regime's faith and practices, are brutal and relentless. They will stop at nothing to do anything and everything they can to keep the Coalition and our 'influence' out of thier country.
A lot of Americans don't really care what goes on in a country thousands of miles away. But there are those of us that do care. Some of us even joined the military because of our beliefs, especially the belief in Freedom for anyone that wants it. Its pretty sad when your country is loaded with all that oil yet, other than the regime in charge and its cronies, the majority of the populace is dirt poor, starving and living in constant fear.
I sometimes hate that US Military is called upon to basically be 'security guards' for the entire planet but Iraq is one instance in which I think we DO need to be there and I am very proud that I have been (and will be again) a part of this on going war. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Those of us in the military (at least most of us, some thought it'd be a country club) signed up for this kind of stuff. We joined the military so that we could be a part of something this important. Don't cry and protest for us and the 3000 soldiers that have given thier lives for these beliefs. Honor them, pray for them and give them your support whenever you possibly can. Its because of all these brave men and woman that all of you will never need to worry about being drafted.
Pres. Bush got ambushed on his own turf w/i a few months of having the Presidency. He isn't the brighest of sorts but he has had to deal with a world climate and an enemy than any previous Administration. Think about it, it used to be that we knew our enemy and could devise simple plans for attack: Russia makes Nukes, We make more, we know what Iran is up to, we know what Korea is up to... Terrorists cells, religious extremists... They are practically invisible. And if Huessien was still in power, Iraq would be definitely be harboring and hiding terror divisions all over the country. Bin Laden would be staying at one of Saddam's palaces instead of hiding out in some rickety log cabin in but-fuck North Dakota watching ESPN and CNN on Direct TV

Fight all you want about "who knew what" and "who did what wrong" but the simple fact is that places like Iraq, Afghanistan and Korea need us there and we need to be there.

I like that that you pointed out that you think 80% of the populace WANT us there. Just about every news group jumps at the chance to show a couple of thousand marchers (Sunni) protesting us being there. I saw a special with Geraldo and one on MSNBC where they went to many, many villages and the people there echoed your sentiments. Unfortunately, the vast majority of our media dislike our president and are less than fair and objective, which is exactly what divides us, and strengthens our enemy. It's also ironic that these Sunni pieces of shit have the audacity to protest, something the regime they supported executed people for. And they say they want us out. Fuck it....let's leave, let the Shi'ites massacre all the Sunni's, THEN return and continue helping them build their new government. The only reason the Shi'ites haven't killed those fuckers is us, yet they so blindly hate us, they continue to attack us. A messy war, no doubt...yet still, a necessary one for sure.

[Eric]

Saddam did sponsor terrorists...he funded I believe Hamas or Hezbollah....

[conversationpc]

Saddam did sponsor terrorists...he funded I believe Hamas or Hezbollah....

Yeah, I can't remember who exactly he supported, but the Iraqi government rewarded the families of Palestinians who blew up themselves and innocent Israeli civilians.

[Saint John]

The following should clear up ANY doubt about Hussein having Weapons of Mass Destruction. Also of importance: In 1998, President Clinton insisted that regime change in Iraq was necessary. Anyway, below are excerpts from Bush...clearly outlining that Al-qaeda will not be the only target in the war on terror. IT IS SOMEWHAT LONG, BUT WELL WORTH READING!!!!



State of Union address 2003
America is making a broad and determined effort to confront these dangers. We have called on the United Nations to fulfill its charter and stand by its demand that Iraq disarm.

For the next 12 years, he systematically violated that agreement. He pursued chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons, even while inspectors were in his country. Nothing to date has restrained him from his pursuit of these weapons -- not economic sanctions, not isolation from the civilized world, not even cruise missile strikes on his military facilities.

The United Nations concluded in 1999 that Saddam Hussein had biological weapons sufficient to produce over 25,000 liters of anthrax -- enough doses to kill several million people. He hasn't accounted for that material. He's given no evidence that he has destroyed it.

The United Nations concluded that Saddam Hussein had materials sufficient to produce more than 38,000 liters of botulinum toxin -- enough to subject millions of people to death by respiratory failure. He hadn't accounted for that material. He's given no evidence that he has destroyed it.

U.S. intelligence indicates that Saddam Hussein had upwards of 30,000 munitions capable of delivering chemical agents. Inspectors recently turned up 16 of them -- despite Iraq's recent declaration denying their existence. Saddam Hussein has not accounted for the remaining 29,984 of these prohibited munitions. He's given no evidence that he has destroyed them.

From three Iraqi defectors we know that Iraq, in the late 1990s, had several mobile biological weapons labs. These are designed to produce germ warfare agents, and can be moved from place to a place to evade inspectors. Saddam Hussein has not disclosed these facilities. He's given no evidence that he has destroyed them.

The International Atomic Energy Agency confirmed in the 1990s that Saddam Hussein had an advanced nuclear weapons development program, had a design for a nuclear weapon and was working on five different methods of enriching uranium for a bomb. The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa. Our intelligence sources tell us that he has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes suitable for nuclear weapons production. Saddam Hussein has not credibly explained these activities.

The dictator of Iraq is not disarming. To the contrary; he is deceiving. From intelligence sources we know, for instance, that thousands of Iraqi security personnel are at work hiding documents and materials from the U.N. inspectors, sanitizing inspection sites and monitoring the inspectors themselves. Iraqi officials accompany the inspectors in order to intimidate witnesses.

Iraq is blocking U-2 surveillance flights requested by the United Nations. Iraqi intelligence officers are posing as the scientists inspectors are supposed to interview. Real scientists have been coached by Iraqi officials on what to say. Intelligence sources indicate that Saddam Hussein has ordered that scientists who cooperate with U.N. inspectors in disarming Iraq will be killed, along with their families.

With nuclear arms or a full arsenal of chemical and biological weapons, Saddam Hussein could resume his ambitions of conquest in the Middle East and create deadly havoc in that region. And this Congress and the America people must recognize another threat. Evidence from intelligence sources, secret communications, and statements by people now in custody reveal that Saddam Hussein aids and protects terrorists, including members of al Qaeda. Secretly, and without fingerprints, he could provide one of his hidden weapons to terrorists, or help them develop their own.

And tonight I have a message for the brave and oppressed people of Iraq: Your enemy is not surrounding your country -- your enemy is ruling your country. (Applause.) And the day he and his regime are removed from power will be the day of your liberation. (Applause.)

Feb speech to the American Enterprise institute.
In Iraq, a dictator is building and hiding weapons that could enable him to dominate the Middle East and intimidate the civilized world -- and we will not allow it. (Applause.) This same tyrant has close ties to terrorist organizations, and could supply them with the terrible means to strike this country -- and America will not permit it. The danger posed by Saddam Hussein and his weapons cannot be ignored or wished away. The danger must be confronted. We hope that the Iraqi regime will meet the demands of the United Nations and disarm, fully and peacefully. If it does not, we are prepared to disarm Iraq by force. Either way, this danger will be removed. (Applause.)

The safety of the American people depends on ending this direct and growing threat. Acting against the danger will also contribute greatly to the long-term safety and stability of our world. The current Iraqi regime has shown the power of tyranny to spread discord and violence in the Middle East. A liberated Iraq can show the power of freedom to transform that vital region, by bringing hope and progress into the lives of millions. America's interests in security, and America's belief in liberty, both lead in the same direction: to a free and peaceful Iraq. (Applause.)

The first to benefit from a free Iraq would be the Iraqi people, themselves. Today they live in scarcity and fear, under a dictator who has brought them nothing but war, and misery, and torture. Their lives and their freedom matter little to Saddam Hussein -- but Iraqi lives and freedom matter greatly to us. (Applause.)

Bringing stability and unity to a free Iraq will not be easy. Yet that is no excuse to leave the Iraqi regime's torture chambers and poison labs in operation. Any future the Iraqi people choose for themselves will be better than the nightmare world that Saddam Hussein has chosen for them. (Applause.)

If we must use force, the United States and our coalition stand ready to help the citizens of a liberated Iraq. We will deliver medicine to the sick, and we are now moving into place nearly 3 million emergency rations to feed the hungry.

We will also lead in carrying out the urgent and dangerous work of destroying chemical and biological weapons. We will provide security against those who try to spread chaos, or settle scores, or threaten the territorial integrity of Iraq. We will seek to protect Iraq's natural resources from sabotage by a dying regime, and ensure those resources are used for the benefit of the owners -- the Iraqi people. (Applause.)

The world has a clear interest in the spread of democratic values, because stable and free nations do not breed the ideologies of murder. They encourage the peaceful pursuit of a better life. And there are hopeful signs of a desire for freedom in the Middle East. Arab intellectuals have called on Arab governments to address the "freedom gap" so their peoples can fully share in the progress of our times.

Leaders in the region speak of a new Arab charter that champions internal reform, greater politics participation, economic openness, and free trade. And from Morocco to Bahrain and beyond, nations are taking genuine steps toward politics reform. A new regime in Iraq would serve as a dramatic and inspiring example of freedom for other nations in the region. (Applause.)

Success in Iraq could also begin a new stage for Middle Eastern peace, and set in motion progress towards a truly democratic Palestinian state. (Applause.) The passing of Saddam Hussein's regime will deprive terrorist networks of a wealthy patron that pays for terrorist training, and offers rewards to families of suicide bombers. And other regimes will be given a clear warning that support for terror will not be tolerated. (Applause.)

[Carlitto H@kk]

Saddam did sponsor terrorists...he funded I believe Hamas or Hezbollah....

Yeah, I can't remember who exactly he supported, but the Iraqi government rewarded the families of Palestinians who blew up themselves and innocent Israeli civilians.

It is still going on... families are rewarded cash and property and merchandise to harbor the rebels and to help hide all the weapons caches. It's pretty funny too because I've been there when an "innocent" citizens home has been searched, only to have weapons stores found hidden within. There's no 'slap on the wrist' or going to jail. The house and all the weapons get blown up and destroyed right on the spot while the "innocent" citizen stands by and watches. It's pretty fuckin hilarious! Hell, you wanna side up with the bad guys and gals, be prepared to pay the price. And the SF and EOD guys and gals eat this kinda shit up

[Granny]

Weapons of mass destruction in Iraq that were never found - and we invade on faulty intelligence
?

Well, poor intelligence is more of proper title. Actually it was a lie. A fucking LIE.

Well, we all agree there is a big mess now. How it was created is now behind us!!! We need people in our gov. who are going to fix the MESS OR AT LEAST TRY. I don't claim to know how to do it, but we need to support our military since they are there and cannot come home now. We cannot pull out in the middle-the Iraqi people would suffer teribbly. another Saddam would arise and bin laden would have a country to go to to hide and cause more damage. I hope he dies soon. W is an idiot and Clinton, well, we know what he was. He did well by the stock market though. I've lost a lot of money since W came into office. But I guess that is partially my fault too. We need to elect politicans by their platforms, not how much money they have or their looks. I agree that there aren't too many who are upstanding citizens, but there has to be someone who has intelligence and class and the ability to lead this country. Deano has some good ideas. We need someone with strength to stand up to these terrorists and keep searching for UBL and get rid of him and his followers and future followers.

[Granny]

I predict that Augeri will return and perform along side Soto to finish the last few shows of the tour. Soto is just a fad.

uhh, if "fad" means life saver, or singer of the year, or perminate lead singer of my favorite band journey,, then i think your right !!! i would love to see both dudes sing together though!!

I find it very strange that not even one word on his condition. Like feeling better/or coming along/or doctors watching his condition. I have a weird feeling that something is very wrong. I hope not. He was OK as a frontman-saw him 3 times-would love to see JSS, but don't know if they are coming to SC this tour. They did last year to the HOB. Both guys singing together would be a trip.

[Saint John]

I just saw the revised name of this thread....what a fuckin' dichotomy.