Perry, Sony, Solo vs. Jrny and the TBF Fall Out

[NoMoreTails]

Why in the Hell did he ever go through the trouble of doing the TBF record if he never had the slightest intention of touring. He lied to Neal and Jon.

Why in the hell did Neal and Jon ever go through the trouble when they already had Rolie and Chalfant on standby raring to go, and Herbie Herbert stating that Perry was purposely yanking their collective cranks?

Maybe the same reason they let him jerk them around in 85 and 86 instead of moving on with someone else then and having a real band, greed.

You'd be correct.

Sad, huh? Could have rebuilt some momentum heading into the 90s instead of trying to pull it back together 10 years later. A quarter of the bands history wasted waiting on Perry.

[Enigma869]

Don't forget WYLAW was nominated for a grammy-as u all know--so how bad could it have been.????

I'll answer this one before someone else jumps on you, Granny (damn, is it strange referring to someone as "Granny" on a Journey board!). Most fans will tell you that Grammy nominations don't matter. I certainly agree with that, to a point. I think WYLAW was a great song and a classic Journey ballad. That said, Journey had a ridiculous number of great songs, long before TBF, and the fact that not a single one of those previous songs had been given consideration for a Grammy will tell you why most fans don't put a whole lot of credibility behind the whole Grammy process. Having said all of that, the Grammy nomination was enormously important to Journey. They all were on record in numerous interviews during that time period, talking about how it meant so much to them. No matter what fans or any musician will tell you, commercial success DOES MATTER, and it matters a whole lot! Ask a guy like Jeff Scott Soto if he wouldn't mind having some commercial success and becoming a household name, after busting his ass, as a relatively unknown musician for over 20 years. My hunch is that he would welcome it and even look at it, in some respect, as validation for all of the blood, sweat, and tears that he's put into his craft, over the years!

As a lifelong Journey fan, I would be elated to see them realize commerical success, again. I don't ever see it happening, as the music industry is just a different world, today. I also don't think the music world will EVER accept music with the name "Journey" attached to it, that is missing Perry's voice. I think Journey could put out an extraordinary cd with JSS at the helm, and I still think the Perry bias isn't going away. Let's hope that I'm dead wrong on this. Time will tell.

John from Boston

[Matthew]

Why in the Hell did he ever go through the trouble of doing the TBF record if he never had the slightest intention of touring. He lied to Neal and Jon.

Why in the hell did Neal and Jon ever go through the trouble when they already had Rolie and Chalfant on standby raring to go, and Herbie Herbert stating that Perry was purposely yanking their collective cranks?

Maybe the same reason they let him jerk them around in 85 and 86 instead of moving on with someone else then and having a real band, greed.

You'd be correct.

Sad, huh? Could have rebuilt some momentum heading into the 90s instead of trying to pull it back together 10 years later. A quarter of the bands history wasted waiting on Perry.

Maybe - but there's no evidence whatsoever that Chalfant would have been a success.

[maverick218]

...all underscores my exisiting feelings that TBF non-tour, non-promotion, was Steve's big "F.U." to Sony.

Maybe, but Sony had other artists, mostly he fucked over his bandmates...
But I think its because he knew he couldn't deliver live anymore.

We as fans took it up the tail pipe too!

[NoMoreTails]

Why in the Hell did he ever go through the trouble of doing the TBF record if he never had the slightest intention of touring. He lied to Neal and Jon.

Why in the hell did Neal and Jon ever go through the trouble when they already had Rolie and Chalfant on standby raring to go, and Herbie Herbert stating that Perry was purposely yanking their collective cranks?

Maybe the same reason they let him jerk them around in 85 and 86 instead of moving on with someone else then and having a real band, greed.

You'd be correct.

Sad, huh? Could have rebuilt some momentum heading into the 90s instead of trying to pull it back together 10 years later. A quarter of the bands history wasted waiting on Perry.

Maybe - but there's no evidence whatsoever that Chalfant would have been a success.

I still believe that Journey doing rock music instead of r&b w/Chalfont or another quality singer could have been at least as successful as Journey was with ROR and for sure more than they were (not counting the GH release) from 87-95.

[Matthew]

Why in the Hell did he ever go through the trouble of doing the TBF record if he never had the slightest intention of touring. He lied to Neal and Jon.

Why in the hell did Neal and Jon ever go through the trouble when they already had Rolie and Chalfant on standby raring to go, and Herbie Herbert stating that Perry was purposely yanking their collective cranks?

Maybe the same reason they let him jerk them around in 85 and 86 instead of moving on with someone else then and having a real band, greed.

You'd be correct.

Sad, huh? Could have rebuilt some momentum heading into the 90s instead of trying to pull it back together 10 years later. A quarter of the bands history wasted waiting on Perry.

Maybe - but there's no evidence whatsoever that Chalfant would have been a success.

I still believe that Journey doing rock music instead of r&b w/Chalfont or another quality singer could have been at least as successful as Journey was with ROR and for sure more than they were (not counting the GH release) from 87-95.

But wouldn't Chalfant have brought the same problems and limitations that Augeri did? No track record of success...accusations of being a Perry clone...and so on?

[ArnelRox]

That said, Journey had a ridiculous number of great songs, long before TBF, and the fact that not a single one of those previous songs had been given consideration for a Grammy will tell you why most fans don't put a whole lot of credibility behind the whole Grammy process.

I think that's the same for alot of bands really. Same shit w/the Oscars. How many great actors didn't win an Oscar for a LONG time just b/c they didn't quite "fit" &/or were punished?

But ur right. Any artist/actor loves to win 1 of these things. It is the ultimate appreciation even if it's not their best work they get it for.

[NoMoreTails]

Why in the Hell did he ever go through the trouble of doing the TBF record if he never had the slightest intention of touring. He lied to Neal and Jon.

Why in the hell did Neal and Jon ever go through the trouble when they already had Rolie and Chalfant on standby raring to go, and Herbie Herbert stating that Perry was purposely yanking their collective cranks?

Maybe the same reason they let him jerk them around in 85 and 86 instead of moving on with someone else then and having a real band, greed.

You'd be correct.

Sad, huh? Could have rebuilt some momentum heading into the 90s instead of trying to pull it back together 10 years later. A quarter of the bands history wasted waiting on Perry.

Maybe - but there's no evidence whatsoever that Chalfant would have been a success.

I still believe that Journey doing rock music instead of r&b w/Chalfont or another quality singer could have been at least as successful as Journey was with ROR and for sure more than they were (not counting the GH release) from 87-95.

But wouldn't Chalfant have brought the same problems and limitations that Augeri did? No track record of success...accusations of being a Perry clone...and so on?

What's more limiting than a singer who won't work? Maybe Perry knew he had some problems of his own too.

[Matthew]

What's more limiting than a singer who won't work? Maybe Perry knew he had some problems of his own too.

Yes I'm sure he did - but that is irrelevant to whether or not Chalfant was the right replacement.

[NoMoreTails]

What's more limiting than a singer who won't work? Maybe Perry knew he had some problems of his own too.

Yes I'm sure he did - but that is irrelevant to whether or not Chalfant was the right replacement.

You don't think anyone would have been the right replacement so what is there to discuss?

[Granny]

Don't forget WYLAW was nominated for a grammy-as u all know--so how bad could it have been.????

I'll answer this one before someone else jumps on you, Granny (damn, is it strange referring to someone as "Granny" on a Journey board!). Most fans will tell you that Grammy nominations don't matter. I certainly agree with that, to a point. I think WYLAW was a great song and a classic Journey ballad. That said, Journey had a ridiculous number of great songs, long before TBF, and the fact that not a single one of those previous songs had been given consideration for a Grammy will tell you why most fans don't put a whole lot of credibility behind the whole Grammy process. Having said all of that, the Grammy nomination was enormously important to Journey. They all were on record in numerous interviews during that time period, talking about how it meant so much to them. No matter what fans or any musician will tell you, commercial success DOES MATTER, and it matters a whole lot! Ask a guy like Jeff Scott Soto if he wouldn't mind having some commercial success and becoming a household name, after busting his ass, as a relatively unknown musician for over 20 years. My hunch is that he would welcome it and even look at it, in some respect, as validation for all of the blood, sweat, and tears that he's put into his craft, over the years!

As a lifelong Journey fan, I would be elated to see them realize commerical success, again. I don't ever see it happening, as the music industry is just a different world, today. I also don't think the music world will EVER accept music with the name "Journey" attached to it, that is missing Perry's voice. I think Journey could put out an extraordinary cd with JSS at the helm, and I still think the Perry bias isn't going away. Let's hope that I'm dead wrong on this. Time will tell.

John from Boston

So- what ur saying is-grammies don't matter -only record sales? Just keep selling millions of records is all that counts? I always thought that artists cared about their work (quality) and what they put out there-guess not any longer. Just videos of half -naked women dancing around like Britney? What a shame this world has come to! I'll still love Steve Perry til the day I die. He is the "VOICE" that made me listen to Journey and my daughters who are ur ages-think so too!

[Matthew]

What's more limiting than a singer who won't work? Maybe Perry knew he had some problems of his own too.

Yes I'm sure he did - but that is irrelevant to whether or not Chalfant was the right replacement.

You don't think anyone would have been the right replacement so what is there to discuss?

In the 80s and 90s? No. I can't think of anyone who could have taken over from Perry without it seeming like a huge step down for the band. But now they've sunk so low the timing does seem right now...and JSS seems to be the right choice to revive the fortunes of the band.

[ohsherrie]

I think there's some truth in everything Badcotune had to say. I just don't think Steve went into TBF with the intention of saying FU to anyone. I think he has too much pride in his craft and the Journey legacy to intentionally sabotage that project and he was obviously proud of the results in all the interviews they did about it. He also appeared to have a real camaraderie going with Neal and Jon in those satellite interviews and be excited at the prospect of touring for the summer of '97.

That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if he had some insecurity about his ability to hold up vocally to a major tour singing the back catalog of material the way fans would expect it to sound. Then when the hip problem came about, that, added to his resentment of Sony and his vocal insecurities, led to what happened between him and Journey.

I don't think he owed more to the band or the fans than he did to his own health(hip or vocal cords). If he had chosen to try to tour under circumstances that he wasn't comfortable with he would have owed the band and the fans the kind of performance from him that they and we would have expected from him. If he had tried it and disappointed them, us, and himself that would have been, to me, worse than stepping away with his dignity and the Journey legacy intact.

I'm sure the prospect of sticking it to Sony was just one bright spot in a dark time for him. JMHO

[Eric]

No matter what Perry is now, he was the greatest vocalist in rock history for his 77-83 contributions. Sure, ROR, TBF and FTLOSM all sucked ass...but 77-83 makes up for it all

Eric - I can understand why you might not like the arrangements, production and even the 'r n b' influence in the post '83 albums - but Perry's vocals were still incredible from "Street Talk" onwards don't you think?

His vocals specifically were fine I guess..yes

[brywool]

They haven't heard the horrendous version of Ask the Lonely in 86 ...

I heard the one from 2006! Yikes!

[SF-Dano]

I would just like to say. That this is the best discussion I have read about this situation. I have been on this board for years and this type of adult discussion would not have been possible here even two years ago. It would have degenerated into name calling and resentment long before the current 4 pages that are going here. So thanks to all for a great read of varying opinons. Even though my opinions don't agree with alot of those presented here, still a great thread.

[Deb]

I don't think he owed more to the band or the fans than he did to his own health(hip or vocal cords). If he had chosen to try to tour under circumstances that he wasn't comfortable with he would have owed the band and the fans the kind of performance from him that they and we would have expected from him. If he had tried it and disappointed them, us, and himself that would have been, to me, worse than stepping away with his dignity and the Journey legacy intact.

I agree, I think (JMHO) Perry being the perfectionist he was maybe had second thoughts and thought he might not have been able to do the old early Journey songs justice to his way of thinking, on an extended tour.......who knows. And I'd lay odds that some of you would be bitching that he wasn't pitch f***in perfect on the TBF tour just like some bitch about the few strains and vocal cracks on the ROR boots. I think I'd get sick of that kind of microscope too.

In the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter who likes him or doesn't here. The guy is well respected in the industry and still has tons of peers that would like to work with him (Jeff being 1) and still has legions of fans 10 - 20 years after the fact......pretty sure that is what matters.


Don't get me wrong, a band is a band........just as I don't think it is ALL Augeri's fault for tapegate, I don't think it is ALL Perry's (or Neal's for that matter) fault on TBF. This band has made many mistakes, but they have also made some of the best music around too.

[itsjustme]

I would just like to say. That this is the best discussion I have read about this situation. I have been on this board for years and this type of adult discussion would not have been possible here even two years ago. It would have degenerated into name calling and resentment long before the current 4 pages that are going here. So thanks to all for a great read of varying opinons. Even though my opinions don't agree with alot of those presented here, still a great thread.

[Enigma869]

Don't get me wrong, a band is a band........just as I don't think it is ALL Augeri's fault for tapegate, I don't think it is ALL Perry's (or Neal's for that matter) fault on TBF. This band has made many mistakes, but they have also made some of the best music around too.

That about sums it up about as succinctly as it can be summed up!

John from Boston

[The_Noble_Cause]

But wouldn't Chalfant have brought the same problems and limitations that Augeri did? No track record of success..

Chalfant had a hit song with The Storm.
Tall Stories also made some noise with the song "Wild on the Run."

[SF-Dano]

But wouldn't Chalfant have brought the same problems and limitations that Augeri did? No track record of success...accusations of being a Perry clone...and so on?

Chalfant had a hit song with The Storm.
Tall Stories also made some noise with the song "Wild on the Run."

I think having Rollie back in the fold would have helped with credibility also.

[journeyrock]

I would just like to say. That this is the best discussion I have read about this situation. I have been on this board for years and this type of adult discussion would not have been possible here even two years ago. It would have degenerated into name calling and resentment long before the current 4 pages that are going here. So thanks to all for a great read of varying opinons. Even though my opinions don't agree with alot of those presented here, still a great thread.

This is my first post on this site and I would just like to say Ditto. I have learned more about the TBF situation from reading this thread than I ever have. Thank you all.

[Matthew]

But wouldn't Chalfant have brought the same problems and limitations that Augeri did? No track record of success..

Chalfant had a hit song with The Storm.
Tall Stories also made some noise with the song "Wild on the Run."

TNC - it's still small potatoes compared to Perry's track record...or Hagar's before he joined VH....

My point was that Chalfant might well have failed to connect with a mass audience in much the same way as Augeri did. We'll never know - but I reckon the 'replicating Perry' strategy would have gone down even more badly with the fans in the late 80s/early 1990s than it did in 1998.

[Matthew]

But wouldn't Chalfant have brought the same problems and limitations that Augeri did? No track record of success...accusations of being a Perry clone...and so on?

Chalfant had a hit song with The Storm.
Tall Stories also made some noise with the song "Wild on the Run."

I think having Rollie back in the fold would have helped with credibility also.

Why would Rolie bring more credibility than Cain did?

[SF-Dano]

Why would Rolie bring more credibility than Cain did?

Cain would have still been there also. So you get some of the early fans that preferred Rollie back plus the fans of the post Escape era. The only ones most likely still unhappy are the Perry-only's. Rollie has cred with the fans of classic rock from his work with Santana as well as Journey. If you only want to talk about record sales and hits, it is all speculation as to what would or would not happen.

[Carlitto H@kk]

Why would Rolie bring more credibility than Cain did?

Cain would have still been there also. So you get some of the early fans that preferred Rollie back plus the fans of the post Escape era. The only ones most likely still unhappy are the Perry-only's. Rollie has cred with the fans of classic rock from his work with Santana as well as Journey. If you only want to talk about record sales and hits, it is all speculation as to what would or would not happen.

But would having Cain and Rolie in the band, together, have worked?
Like it or not, Cain's songwriting moved Journey into a whole different territory.
Some fans like where he took the band, some didn't.
Could Rolie have fit into the band Journey became after albums like
Escape, Frontiers and ROR???
It would've been interesting, to say the least, but I wonder
if their 2 totally different styles would've clashed.

[Matthew]

Why would Rolie bring more credibility than Cain did?

Cain would have still been there also. So you get some of the early fans that preferred Rollie back plus the fans of the post Escape era. The only ones most likely still unhappy are the Perry-only's. Rollie has cred with the fans of classic rock from his work with Santana as well as Journey. If you only want to talk about record sales and hits, it is all speculation as to what would or would not happen.

Yes, that's true - except I do think the Perry-only camp was big enough to sink any hope of a meaningful recording career for Journey at that time.

[Deb]

My point was that Chalfant might well have failed to connect with a mass audience in much the same way as Augeri did. We'll never know - but I reckon the 'replicating Perry' strategy would have gone down even more badly with the fans in the late 80s/early 1990s than it did in 1998.

Sorry, I know this is a girly thing to say, but I don't believe Chalfant would have brought the ladies in either.......has that Jimmy Page look going on.....bleck.

[SF-Dano]

But would having Cain and Rolie in the band, together, have worked?
Like it or not, Cain's songwriting moved Journey into a whole different territory.
Some fans like where he took the band, some didn't.
Could Rolie have fit into the band Journey became after albums like
Escape, Frontiers and ROR???
It would've been interesting, to say the least, but I wonder
if their 2 totally different styles would've clashed.

Rolie is a chameleon of a player and writer. If you have ever heard his first solo album, he was already moving to a more modern 80s pop sound then. Then with The Storm, well that was very "Cain" era Journey sounding there. I think if the egos could be put aside, which by all accounts that I have read they were at that time, I really think that band could work well and create some interesting music. IMO Rolie respected Cain enough to hand pick him as his replacement in Journey and Cain respects what Rolie has accomplished even going back to the Santana days. Hell Cain pretty much channels Rolie on his solo for La Raza. I think it would have been some very good music to come out of that group to say the least. Would it have had commercial success. I don't know. Nobody can say for sure what would have happened.

[fredinator]

Maybe Herbie's book or his contributions to somebody else's book that is coming out next year will give some idea of what happened...