Perry, Sony, Solo vs. Jrny and the TBF Fall Out

[peacemom]

Other than Message of Love, Trial By Fire is a perfect soundtrack to slice a vein longways (the correct way) and bleed to death. However that is a slow death and you might have to actually listen to that boring piece of shit. Better to play MOL, then stick a gun in your mouth and pull the trigger. Much less painfull.



Ok, who knows who this is?

ok, I'll take a shot at this in my first ever post here. My best guess is Bud Dwyer.

Peace
Marie

[Granny]

I hated the red leather pants and the wiggle didn't do anything for me. He had nice shirts!!

Nice shirts??? Sounds like another true music fan! Augeri was wearing his wife's white "blouse" in that 2001 DVD! Sorry, but dudes just don't wear "shirts" like that!

John from Boston

John, I was being funny since I couldn't say anything nice about his music and singing which sucked! Guess I have to be more specific and crude for everyone to understand. Yeah, I paid good money for that DVD. Didn't like it either.
Now Journey is another story. Bought 4 cds today. They are one of a kind and no one can play a guitar like Neal. Deen C. is a great drummer and has agreat voice. Wouldn't be the same without Ross and - Cain is a magnificent song
writer especially when writing with Schon and Perry.

[AR]

ok, I'll take a shot at this in my first ever post here. My best guess is Bud Dwyer

And peacemom wins with her first post! Harrisburg, PA senator R Budd Dwyer is the correct answer!

And if you haven't seen the video, well...............

[Deb]

I reckon ROR is Journey's third best album. Perhaps coincidentally it is the third highest selling too. I'd also say that Escape is the best (it sold the most) followed by Frontiers (the second highest selling).

Not even close.

Escape- 9 million
Frontiers-6
Evolution -3
Departure- 3
Infinity--3
ROR- 2
TBF-1

Captured- 2
GH-10
GH Live- gold


Arrival- under 500k
Red 13- under 500k
Generations- under 500k


source- RIAA.com

And I stand corrected by you too, Deano.

Let me quickly revise my big theory...I'll be back in a minute.

[Deb]

I hated the red leather pants and the wiggle didn't do anything for me. He had nice shirts!!

Nice shirts??? Sounds like another true music fan! Augeri was wearing his wife's white "blouse" in that 2001 DVD! Sorry, but dudes just don't wear "shirts" like that!

John from Boston

John, John, John......how quickly you forget......our boys wore some of those "blouses" in their day too.....late 70s and 80. I don't who the hell helped Perry and Rollie with their wardrobes during departure, but some of their "blouses" weren't the manliest shirts I've seen.

[RPM]

The very reason Perry didnt want Journey to use the name without him has happened.
they have to resort to tapes to come even close to what he has done effortlessly.
was he a prick? probably, but he was the best damn singer AND writer this band will
ever see. The new lineup? it Rocks, JSS has won me over and I cant wait to hear some
new music with him!

[Monker]

But Steve Smith's refusal to continue with Journey without Perry and the early signs that Sony had lost interest in the band without Perry were warning signs that Schon and Cain didn't seem to hear. As it turned out...both Smith and Sony were right not to back Schon and Cain's experiment.

This has always fascinated me. It seemed to me that Steve Smith was VERY willing to be a member of Journey again with Perry as the singer. Conversely, he had ZERO interest in Journey without Perry as part of the band.

This is simply not true.

He stated repeatedly that he was interested in an one album/tour reunion - not to become a permanent member of Journey again. So, yeah, he would have toured as part of a 'reunion'...but would have been right back to his solo stuff afterwards.

I still find it interesting that Smith would (seemingly) be this loyal to a guy who fired him from the band (for no cause, from what I can tell).

So what? The fans make more out of this then they do. In the Journey digest interview froim that time, he got a bit pissy when he was being pressed with these type of question. Why can't you just take it as it is...they thought it would be a better way to leave things for the fans then what happened for ROR.

Does anyone know what's behind Smith's apparent loyalty to Perry? Or, is it as simple as he just didn't think Journey had any shot of being taken seriously without Perry?

It's neither. If he's so 'loyal' to Perry, why did he show up at the bands first show with Augeri? If he thought the band was doomed to failure, why is he friendly with Deen...even giving him advice on how to handle drumming for Journey?

As Smith has said, he was there for one album and one tour...with NO comittment for anything following. He is more interested in his Jazz career then pop music. It's the same reason he didn't tour for the Storm. That's not the type of music he wants to pursue.

[RPM]

"John, John, John......how quickly you forget......our boys wore some of those "blouses" in their day too.....late 70s and 80. I don't who the hell helped Perry and Rollie with their wardrobes during departure, but some of their "blouses" weren't the manliest shirts I've seen. "

TRUE. but it was a different time no? and Perry himself has laughed at those outfits...

[Rockindeano]

"John, John, John......how quickly you forget......our boys wore some of those "blouses" in their day too.....late 70s and 80. I don't who the hell helped Perry and Rollie with their wardrobes during departure, but some of their "blouses" weren't the manliest shirts I've seen. "

TRUE. but it was a different time no? and Perry himself has laughed at those outfits...

Perry was never a dude you wanted to hang with..Such a pussy. Now Neal or Jeff, and even Ross? Those fuckers are the shit.

[RPM]

"Perry was never a dude you wanted to hang with..Such a pussy. Now Neal or Jeff, and even Ross? Those fuckers are the shit."

Agreed. listen to sing there ass off? Steve Perry! Got a problem with that? .....thought so

[ArnelRox]

I hated the red leather pants and the wiggle didn't do anything for me. He had nice shirts!!

Nice shirts??? Sounds like another true music fan! Augeri was wearing his wife's white "blouse" in that 2001 DVD! Sorry, but dudes just don't wear "shirts" like that!

John from Boston

Damn John is that true? I always thought that white "blouse" was too fem. OMG if this is true (& not just a joke on ur part) how gay.

[Enigma869]

John, John, John......how quickly you forget......our boys wore some of those "blouses" in their day too.....late 70s and 80. I don't who the hell helped Perry and Rollie with their wardrobes during departure, but some of their "blouses" weren't the manliest shirts I've seen.

I didn't forget at all! But...as you said...it was the 70's and 80's! Every rock star on the planet was dressing like a chick! I still thought it was gay, but, they were all doing it! If my memory is accurate, I believe the DVD with the chick shirt Augeri had on was recorded in December of 2001, so I don't believe the comparison to the 70's is even close to being a good comparison! I guess as long as it excites all the wiggle weirdos over at BT...it's all okay!

John from Boston

[Enigma869]

But Steve Smith's refusal to continue with Journey without Perry and the early signs that Sony had lost interest in the band without Perry were warning signs that Schon and Cain didn't seem to hear. As it turned out...both Smith and Sony were right not to back Schon and Cain's experiment.

This has always fascinated me. It seemed to me that Steve Smith was VERY willing to be a member of Journey again with Perry as the singer. Conversely, he had ZERO interest in Journey without Perry as part of the band.

This is simply not true.

He stated repeatedly that he was interested in an one album/tour reunion - not to become a permanent member of Journey again. So, yeah, he would have toured as part of a 'reunion'...but would have been right back to his solo stuff afterwards.

I still find it interesting that Smith would (seemingly) be this loyal to a guy who fired him from the band (for no cause, from what I can tell).

So what? The fans make more out of this then they do. In the Journey digest interview froim that time, he got a bit pissy when he was being pressed with these type of question. Why can't you just take it as it is...they thought it would be a better way to leave things for the fans then what happened for ROR.

Does anyone know what's behind Smith's apparent loyalty to Perry? Or, is it as simple as he just didn't think Journey had any shot of being taken seriously without Perry?

It's neither. If he's so 'loyal' to Perry, why did he show up at the bands first show with Augeri? If he thought the band was doomed to failure, why is he friendly with Deen...even giving him advice on how to handle drumming for Journey?

As Smith has said, he was there for one album and one tour...with NO comittment for anything following. He is more interested in his Jazz career then pop music. It's the same reason he didn't tour for the Storm. That's not the type of music he wants to pursue.

Hey Monker...

Let me start off with my Sunday morning greeting to you...KISS MY ASS!!!! While I have zero problem with you, or anyone else responding to mine or anyone else's post on a public message board, your "holier than thou" attitude is fucking ridiculous! You are more full of yourself than any jackass I've ever come across on a message board (and I can assure you that I met a whole lot of them on BT over the past 6 years!). First of all...If you actually read my post, you would have seen that I was thinking out loud, and unlike you, was certainly not passing off any of my thoughts as gospel (the word "seemingly" should have been your first tip that it was my OPINION)! Unlike you, I don't pretend to know the guys in the band or pretend that I hang out with these guys. Journey isn't my life, dude! They're simply a band, whose music I've enjoyed for most of the past 28 years! Do me a favor, and please make a concerted effort to skip over my postings, and I will do the same with yours! Your condescending attitude makes me want to slap the shit out of you!

John from Boston

[Rockindeano]

Your condescending attitude makes me want to slap the shit out of you!

John from Boston

Dude, please try to respect women. No need to "slap the shit" out them.

[wildone]

Your condescending attitude makes me want to slap the shit out of you!

John from Boston

Dude, please try to respect women. No need to "slap the shit" out them.

deano ...lmao you always have a gallon of gas handy!!!

[Rockindeano]

Your condescending attitude makes me want to slap the shit out of you!

John from Boston

Dude, please try to respect women. No need to "slap the shit" out them.

deano ...lmao you always have a gallon of gas handy!!!

Ask Lula..It isn't always the liquid kind either. I gave her the old dutch oven last night..a few times in fact. I also did the old fart under the covers and pull them over her head and hold her in there....Even she had to laugh after the smell cleared...Nothing like Taco Bell, a 12 pack of Belgium beer and chili to "get her!"

[Lula]

Dean you so so full of it in more ways than one

[Granny]

Your condescending attitude makes me want to slap the shit out of you!

John from Boston

Dude, please try to respect women. No need to "slap the shit" out them.

John's a chick? Did I miss something? U know I'm old. so slow down so I can read and understand what is going on!!!!!!!

[Deb]

Your condescending attitude makes me want to slap the shit out of you!

John from Boston

Dude, please try to respect women. No need to "slap the shit" out them.

John's a chick? Did I miss something? U know I'm old. so slow down so I can read and understand what is going on!!!!!!!

LOL Granny, John's reply was to Monker.........and Deano's reply was to John's reply to Monker. Deano's implying Monker is a woman.

[Granny]

Your condescending attitude makes me want to slap the shit out of you!

John from Boston

Dude, please try to respect women. No need to "slap the shit" out them.

John's a chick? Did I miss something? U know I'm old. so slow down so I can read and understand what is going on!!!!!!!

LOL Granny, John's reply was to Monker.........and Deano's reply was to John's reply to Monker. Deano's implying Monker is a woman.

Thanks for straightening that out for me. Sometimes they confuse the hell out of me.!! I knew someone was calling someone a women but not sure who!!

Granny

[Carrington]

Ahhh......that was a nice, refreshing smack down by John......something that was and is much needed over at BT as well...

nice job John, still making sense as usual!.....

[Carrington]

I am still trying to sort things out for myself about this band because I love the band and their music and memories, etc., etc. I'm a little confused about something regarding money and royalties and so forth; do they all get an equal cut of the money while they were a member of the band? If so, I'm wondering why Neal is so broke and/or Jon (if I've read the posts here right) and Steve P is wealthy and got bank, etc. I have also read that Neal likes Journey ok but not all the music and he keeps the band going to pay the bills. Would Steve P owe them anything more than what he's given if this is the case? Also, Herbie is a pretty colorful guy but from some of the interviews I've read he (to me) seems a little, nutty?? Okay, I'm running for cover...

Nancy

My guess is that Jon and Neal's divorces ate up alot of thier bank, where as Perry being single, and a little better business sense held on to more of the cash in the end.....

[Rantlers]

I am still trying to sort things out for myself about this band because I love the band and their music and memories, etc., etc. I'm a little confused about something regarding money and royalties and so forth; do they all get an equal cut of the money while they were a member of the band? If so, I'm wondering why Neal is so broke and/or Jon (if I've read the posts here right) and Steve P is wealthy and got bank, etc. I have also read that Neal likes Journey ok but not all the music and he keeps the band going to pay the bills. Would Steve P owe them anything more than what he's given if this is the case? Also, Herbie is a pretty colorful guy but from some of the interviews I've read he (to me) seems a little, nutty?? Okay, I'm running for cover...

Nancy

My guess is that Jon and Neal's divorces ate up alot of thier bank, where as Perry being single, and a little better business sense held on to more of the cash in the end.....

I know nothing about their situation, but that sounds right on. I've heard that Perry has more money than God, and it would not suprise me. Why else would Mr. Schon be so willing to accept him back............$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[donnaplease]

Talent...maybe (just a thought)

[Matthew]

I think Augeri was rooted more in rock and his past showed that. I think having him try to adapt to a more Perry-ish style was a bad decision by all concerned. So was sticking to the greatest hits year after year for the most part.

Yes, I agree.

His tone was similar, most of his influences were not.

Who was he influenced by? Did he ever talk about that in interviews?

If ROR has sold more than Infinity and Captured, that's a disgrace imo, no matter what the numbers sold,

As it turns out, ROR has sold less than Infinity" but the same as "Captured".

I feel the difference in numbers reflects the change in times rather than the quality, this is why I think Arrival without Perry could have sold as much as ROR did, if it were released 15 years earlier.

There's no doubt that a new Journey record released in 1986 would have sold more than 250,000 copies no matter who was singing. But would it have outsold ROR? Well, we can come up with any number of fantasy scenarios and what-ifs - but I'd argue that replacing Perry in the mid-80s would have been a PR disaster for the band. They would have needed to bring in a singer of equal stature - as VH did at that time - to recapture the ground they'd lost between 1983-1986. Who could they have hired at that time?

But the fact is....Arrival wasn't recorded in 1986. I can understand why the band, the management and the record company wanted an 80s pastiche which the ageing fan base could buy into...but this cynical and contrived strategy did make the record sound soulless and dated, I reckon. It was the sound of a band who were determined to stay in the past. I never felt this record was written 'from the heart' . And as it turned out most Journey fans weren't fooled by this attempt to create an illusion that times hadn't changed.

Say what you like about ROR...but it was an album by a band that wanted to evolve...to try things they'd never tried before. All the great bands of that era - such as Queen and Rush - were on the same path - releasing albums that ventured into new territory...making use of all the new technology that was becoming available.

So even if ROR has ended up as the equivalent of the "Unmasked" album for KISS fans....loathed by most but a cult classic for a minority....the band was at least trying to reinvent itself at that time.

I reckon Arrival failed primarily because Journey had lost their sense of adventure. It was a fearful and calculatingly nostalgic record. The band shut themselves off from the present...and this is a key reason - surely - why the record seemed so utterly irrelevant in 2001.

[Matthew]

As Smith has said, he was there for one album and one tour...with NO comittment for anything following. He is more interested in his Jazz career then pop music. It's the same reason he didn't tour for the Storm. That's not the type of music he wants to pursue.

Monker - perhaps I read too much into the BTM documentary - but when Smith was talking about the moment when he was asked whether or not he wanted to continue without Perry he said "no way"...or something like that. He gave the impression that Perry's absence was a reason for his decision. Do you remember that bit of the documentary?

[RedWingFan]

As Smith has said, he was there for one album and one tour...with NO comittment for anything following. He is more interested in his Jazz career then pop music. It's the same reason he didn't tour for the Storm. That's not the type of music he wants to pursue.

Monker - perhaps I read too much into the BTM documentary - but when Smith was talking about the moment when he was asked whether or not he wanted to continue without Perry he said "no way"...or something like that. He gave the impression that Perry's absence was a reason for his decision. Do you remember that bit of the documentary?

I remember

[NoMoreTails]

Who was he influenced by? Did he ever talk about that in interviews?

Yes, the ones I recall him mentioning were Plant, Glenn Hughes, I think Steve Marriot, and Rod Stewart. Rod is probably one who was also influenced by Sam Cooke, Augeri mentioned Sam as well, that being his common ground with Perry.

But the fact is....Arrival wasn't recorded in 1986. I can understand why the band, the management and the record company wanted an 80s pastiche which the ageing fan base could buy into...but this cynical and contrived strategy did make the record sound soulless and dated, I reckon. It was the sound of a band who were determined to stay in the past. I never felt this record was written 'from the heart' . And as it turned out most Journey fans weren't fooled by this attempt to create an illusion that times hadn't changed.

I reckon Arrival failed primarily because Journey had lost their sense of adventure. It was a fearful and calculatingly nostalgic record. The band shut themselves off from the present...and this is a key reason - surely - why the record seemed so utterly irrelevant in 2001.

I agree with much of what you say about Arrival, but I believe the calculation was more on the part of Sony than the band. I think that the ballads and the quantity of ballads were Sony's call, though obviously the band had written them, I doubt they (except for Jon possibly) wanted them all included. At one point I believe the label had them go write more with some outside writers, resulting in a couple more ballads w/Kim Tribble.
On the other hand, I think the band moved forward with some different material in a direction that they were pushing for which would have been very interesting if it had continued such as World Gone Wild and All The Things. A couple other slow-mid tempo cuts also touch on some new ground. But it could be said that overall Arrival was attempt to recreate the greatest hits record with new material to some degree.
Personally, I'd take an album consisting of the Red13 material and 2/3 of Generations, remixed/better production, that would have been my favorite Journey album of the entire catalog, had it happened.

As for ROR, it was a new direction that Perry wanted, not Journey. Cain to a degree, possibly may have been interested in writing pop songs, but Neal wasn't that involved in the writing, came in did his parts, got out basically. Cain and Schon's motivation was just that they were able to keep "Journey" afloat for one more album. As for Neal's interest in the technology and wanting to pursue that type of sound which was mentioned somewhere in this thread, he was using synth guitars nearly ten years earlier when the earliest technology became available. Synth guitars were used prominently on Escape, so obviously it was useful for more than just the sterile manufactured soul-less instrumentation of much of ROR. It might have been an r&b album from the vocalist's perspective, musically I found it to lack the "soul" of most of Journey's work.

[Matthew]

Yes, the ones I recall him mentioning were Plant, Glenn Hughes, I think Steve Marriot, and Rod Stewart. Rod is probably one who was also influenced by Sam Cooke, Augeri mentioned Sam as well, that being his common ground with Perry.

Thanks NMT. Hughes was a great singer wasn't he?

At one point I believe the label had them go write more with some outside writers, resulting in a couple more ballads w/Kim Tribble.

I haven't heard of Tribble. Any good?

Personally, I'd take an album consisting of the Red13 material and 2/3 of Generations, remixed/better production, that would have been my favorite Journey album of the entire catalog, had it happened.

I actually much prefer "Generations" to "Arrival"...but aside from "A Better Life" it's hard for me to understand why you'd feel it had the potential to rank higher than, say, "Escape" or "Frontiers".

As for ROR, it was a new direction that Perry wanted, not Journey. Cain to a degree, possibly maybe have been interested in writing pop songs

The implication you make here is that Journey hadn't been interested in writing pop songs before 1986. A brief glance at the track listing on the Greatest Hits shows this isn't true.

but Neal wasn't that involved in the writing came in did his parts, got out basically.

I've read that's Perry frequently absented himself too. It's amazing they got anything done.

Cain and Schon's motivation was just that they were able to keep "Journey" afloat for one more album.

I'm sure that was Perry's motivation too - despite his initial reluctance.

the sterile manufactured soul-less instrumentation of much of ROR.

Well, Neal's solos had soul...and Perry's vocals had soul...so I guess you must be referring to Jonathan Cain's contribution. Were his keyboards any more or less soulful than, say, the ultra-80s keyboard riff in "Separate Ways"? "Frontiers" also had a strong synthetic element.

As for the drum production...well, I guess it was a bit robotic and plodding. But ROR is by no means the only Journey album with questionable drum production. "Departure" being a prime example. No - it wasn't mechanical - but it does sound a bit leaden and 'clumpy'.

[Enigma869]

As for ROR, it was a new direction that Perry wanted, not Journey. Cain to a degree, possibly may have been interested in writing pop songs, but Neal wasn't that involved in the writing, came in did his parts, got out basically.

Well, it's never been much of a secret that Neal LOATHES "pop songs". It's not his thing, never has been his thing, and never will be his thing! I've always been stunned how open Neal has been about how much disdain he seems to have for the "pop" sound, considering that he's made his living in a band that made themselves a household name by writing these types of songs. Neal has ALWAYS been a rocker, at heart and sometimes I wonder if he isn't disappointed a bit by the music that Journey became so famous for. My hunch is that Neal probably hates most of the dirty dozen songs that put Journey on the map.

John from Boston