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[NoMoreTails]

Enigma, it's known that I'm PC illiterate and maybe the board's worst quoter but in your 2d paragraph you raise a doozie, "when does it stop being Jrny?"

Dunno....as a huge Foreigner fan I have signifigant misgivings about Mick Jones being the only remaining founding member of the current lineup and my ability to percieve it as Frnr as such...

Here's the bottom line imo, it doesn't stop being "Journey"/"Foreigner"/whatever--as long as the band using the name owns the name.

But '13 isn't hanging out on Foreigner boards talking about burning Mick and the "Lou wannbe at the stake.

[ohsherrie]

Actually, as I said in my post, you are the one who has backed your feelings with some reasoning and really the only one who I felt any respect for, for that reason. There were many times in some of your posts that I found value in what you wrote, unlike HOTS and the one who always wrote in the obnoxious red font. But I did feel that fundamentally, you were a Perry fan rather than a Journey fan, perhaps I'm wrong to stereotype you with the others, for that I appologize. My post to which you replied was not intended to be directed specifically at you, even though you were the only "Perry-head" MR long-timer posting. You may have said long ago that they should have moved on with a different type singer...but someone said that and included the statement that they should re-name the band as well as it isn't Journey without SP. Perhaps you will be a fan with JSS, but I had my doubts, and still do about some of the others as the underlying theme for them has always been it isn't Journey without Perry.

Thank you for that clarification NMT. I don't always agree with your point of view, but I've always respected your opinions because you hardly ever say anything out of pure malice or spite towards another poster. I guess I did assume wrongly that your post was directed at me because I was the one long-timer involved in the conversation and because I was already under attack, maybe making me a little over sensitive at the time.

I've said that it's not Journey without Perry for me and I meant it. The part that some people don't understand about that is that I didn't say it simply because they chose to go on. I said it because the band no longer had the magic ingredient that it needed to be Journey for me whether that is Perry's voice or the chemistry that the combination of Perry, Cain and Schon brought to the songs and the sound. I'm hoping Jeff can bring some chemistry back that will produce a sound that I think is worthy of Journey and all indications would point to that being a good possibility.

I've made some negative comments about Augeri and that lineup but, even though I know it was unfair to them, most of the remarks were jabs at the fans of the band that were tearing Perry down in order to justify that lineup than toward Augeri or the band. I think a lot of us on these boards have said things in the heat of impassioned arguments that sound a lot more negative or even hostile than we really feel. I doubt that most of people who say they "hate Perry's guts" really do. It's just messgeboard talk. It really seems that the nature of the interaction on these boards becomes more about challenging the posters on the other side of an issue than about the subject we're discussing.

[Red13JoePa]

Enigma, it's known that I'm PC illiterate and maybe the board's worst quoter but in your 2d paragraph you raise a doozie, "when does it stop being Jrny?"

Dunno....as a huge Foreigner fan I have signifigant misgivings about Mick Jones being the only remaining founding member of the current lineup and my ability to percieve it as Frnr as such...

Here's the bottom line imo, it doesn't stop being "Journey"/"Foreigner"/whatever--as long as the band using the name owns the name.

But '13 isn't hanging out on Foreigner boards talking about burning Mick and the "Lou wannbe at the stake.

True, bought the new Exteded Versions live record (awesome) and am trying (with some success) to embrace.

At this point, though, with Journey still having 4/5 of the lineup that made my favorite album Generations Plus the Cain and Valory stalwarts from the halcyon days, IMO a top 3 drummer in the biz, I'm not at the Foreigner crossroad yet. Plus Soto is just way out off the charts as a singer.

[ohsherrie]

The "Journey should change their name without Perry" thing is preposterous. That notion is just beyond me I guess.

I've said that too, but not just because Perry wasn't there, it's because I didn't think they would be accepted as Journey without the Perry sound that they were so identified by and would have been more successful with a variation of the name to indicate that they were doing something different.

OhSherrie: You've always been the best of the loons b/c it's never been about mere hitting and running with you.

Thanks Joe, you've always been a voice of reason on your side of the fence.

[Deb]

Plus Soto is just way out off the charts as a singer.

Have to agree, was listening to the 'Eyes' stuff a couple days ago.......has a great voice.

[NoMoreTails]

Thank you for that clarification NMT. I don't always agree with your point of view, but I've always respected your opinions because you hardly ever say anything out of pure malice or spite towards another poster. I guess I did assume wrongly that your post was directed at me because I was the one long-timer involved in the conversation and because I was already under attack, maybe making me a little over sensitive at the time.

I've said that it's not Journey without Perry for me and I meant it. The part that some people don't understand about that is that I didn't say it simply because they chose to go on. I said it because the band no longer had the magic ingredient that it needed to be Journey for me whether that is Perry's voice or the chemistry that the combination of Perry, Cain and Schon brought to the songs and the sound. I'm hoping Jeff can bring some chemistry back that will produce a sound that I think is worthy of Journey and all indications would point to that being a good possibility.

I've made some negative comments about Augeri and that lineup but, even though I know it was unfair to them, most of the remarks were jabs at the fans of the band that were tearing Perry down in order to justify that lineup than toward Augeri or the band. I think a lot of us on these boards have said things in the heat of impassioned arguments that sound a lot more negative or even hostile than we really feel. I doubt that most of people who say they "hate Perry's guts" really do. It's just messgeboard talk. It really seems that the nature of the interaction on these boards becomes more about challenging the posters on the other side of an issue than about the subject we're discussing.

I appreciate your thoughts here and you make some good points.
Regarding your comment about it not being Journey for you without Perry, perhaps I can understand your perspective better now, after being disappointed with the first show I saw with JSS, his second show of the tour, it wasn't Journey for me that night. Maybe I'll change my mind as I liked JSS before, and am open minded about going again and hearing new stuff from the band and think he is a great singer. My wife is a very big SA fan and it was hard for her to see the show. Having never thought Journey could go on without SP, she came to love SA to the point that she probably won't be able to accept anyone else, it was actually painful for her. Even being a huge fan of Neal's playing, I don't think she'll be able to accept it without SA's voice. So now the shoe's on the other foot I suppose, maybe I have some understanding of how you feel to some extent. If the change had to come, I'm glad its JSS rather than someone else.

[journeyrock]

I've said that it's not Journey without Perry for me and I meant it. The part that some people don't understand about that is that I didn't say it simply because they chose to go on. I said it because the band no longer had the magic ingredient that it needed to be Journey for me whether that is Perry's voice or the chemistry that the combination of Perry, Cain and Schon brought to the songs and the sound. I'm hoping Jeff can bring some chemistry back that will produce a sound that I think is worthy of Journey and all indications would point to that being a good possibility.

.[/quote]I have to agree with your statements. I saw Journey just the other night in concert and while JSS is a fantastic singer and I really think they could create a good chemistry and sound together, it still isn't "Journey" without Perry for me also. The Journey magic just is not there.

They could be very successful with Jeff as frontman, but would probably be more widely accepted as a band with a variation of the Journey name.

Just one person's opinion.

[conversationpc]

I've said that it's not Journey without Perry for me and I meant it.

If that's the case, was it Journey BEFORE Perry was in the band?

[NealIsGod]

I've said that it's not Journey without Perry for me and I meant it.

If that's the case, was it Journey BEFORE Perry was in the band?

For me, this planet was not Earth until Perry was born. (twirls lock of hair - chews gum noisily - opens fresh beer)

[NoMoreTails]

I've said that it's not Journey without Perry for me and I meant it.

If that's the case, was it Journey BEFORE Perry was in the band?

This is the place NIG needs to reply with the pic of the audience applauding...
uh...make that should have...

[Moose]

Not to stir things up, and not to diminish Mr. Schon, but does anyone really think Journey would have been more than a footnote in the history of rock without Perry?

[ohsherrie]

So now the shoe's on the other foot I suppose, maybe I have some understanding of how you feel to some extent. If the change had to come, I'm glad its JSS rather than someone else.

Those may be the positives that result from this tagegate situation. Maybe a lot of people will have a better understanding of how others felt on both sides. I have a hard time understanding how the Augeriloons can fail to see Jeff as a positive just like they didn't understand how the Perryheads couldn't accept Augeri. Now we've got a powerhouse singer and performer that maybe more of us can agree on.

[Chris88]

I'm convinced that Jeff was a brilliant marketing executive in his other life (the one before the rock star gig). He comes onto to Journey's boards and says nothing but good things about Perry and how Perry was a big influence in his musical life. That gets all the Perry loyalists (myself included) onboard with this guy. I mean...The guy likes Perry...how bad can he be? He is then smart enough not to badmouth Augeri, so he keeps all the wiggle weirdos happy. This brings me to my next point. Because the guy is now fronting my favorite band and counts my favorite vocalist as a big influence, I owe it to the guy to go a purchase some of his music, right? Well, I went onto amazon.com last night to purchase some JSS music, and am now officially broke!

What's up with the price of your cd's Jeff?? Are they all gold-plated? Shit, some of those audio CD's are over $30! $30 for one CD in 2006? I hope you're at least getting some solid profits off of these prices Well, I did my part and made a "donation". I think these are the most expensive cd's I've ever bought in my life. Hell, were they even this expensive back when cd's came out? I don't believe they were!

John from Boston

If you knew anything about music, you wouldn't have purchased them from Amazon to begin with.

[ohsherrie]

I've said that it's not Journey without Perry for me and I meant it.

If that's the case, was it Journey BEFORE Perry was in the band?

For me, this planet was not Earth until Perry was born. (twirls lock of hair - chews gum noisily - opens fresh beer)

Gee NIG would that be one of Neal's curls you're twirling?

[Just Mindy]

I've said that it's not Journey without Perry for me and I meant it.

If that's the case, was it Journey BEFORE Perry was in the band?

For me, this planet was not Earth until Perry was born. (twirls lock of hair - chews gum noisily - opens fresh beer)

Gee NIG would that be one of Neal's curls you're twirling?

Thanks, I just got a much needed laugh

[Red13JoePa]

Not to stir things up, and not to diminish Mr. Schon, but does anyone really think Journey would have been more than a footnote in the history of rock without Perry?

See Monker's thought provoking posts on this matter in another thread (sorry forget where.).

[Enigma869]

If that's the case, was it Journey BEFORE Perry was in the band?

Well, as we all know, they certainly had the name Journey. Unfortunately for the band calling themselves "Journey" , they couldn't have been more musically irrelevant before you know who was brought into the band. For the record, as much of a Perry fan as I have always been...I would NEVER give Perry all the credit. In fact, I doubt Journey would have had the success they realized if Cain hadn't replaced Rolie. Journey was all about the chemistry between Perry, Cain, and Schon. None of those three is as good alone as they were together, period, end of story!

John from Boston

[Enigma869]

If you knew anything about music, you wouldn't have purchased them from Amazon to begin with.

Hey fuckhead...

I never claimed to be a "music producer"! Jeff's cd is the only cd I've ever purchased on Amazon, and I did that because many people here said it was the only place to find any of Jeff's material. Now go insult someone else, asshole!

John from Boston

[Moose]

What's wrong with Amazon anyway? I've bought plenty of stuff from there, with no issues.

[conversationpc]

If you knew anything about music, you wouldn't have purchased them from Amazon to begin with.

Hey fuckhead...

I never claimed to be a "music producer"! Jeff's cd is the only cd I've ever purchased on Amazon, and I did that because many people here said it was the only place to find any of Jeff's material. Now go insult someone else, asshole!

John from Boston

[Enigma869]

Enigma, it's known that I'm PC illiterate and maybe the board's worst quoter but in your 2d paragraph you raise a doozie, "when does it stop being Jrny?"

Dunno....as a huge Foreigner fan I have signifigant misgivings about Mick Jones being the only remaining founding member of the current lineup and my ability to percieve it as Frnr as such...

Hey 13...

I only raised the question because there are some who believe that whomever you run onto a stage is whatever band they claim they are. Perhaps some fans will blindly support a band like that, but, I'm not one of them. I think at some point, when the entire sound of a band changes (and by the way, I am not suggesting this is the case with Journey, AT ALL!), they can call themselves whatever they want, but most educated fans aren't going to fall for it. I think suggesting a band is who they feel like calling themselves is absurd. If 5 guys down the street from me start singing Patiently, Mother/Father, and DSB and call themselves Journey...that isn't going to make them Journey in my world.

It's all about the sound of the band and once a sound is drastically altered (see Queen with Paul Rodgers), it just isn't the same any longer. Ever wonder why Queen felt compelled to stop calling themselves Queen and now refer to themselves as "Queen, featuring Paul Rodgers"? For the record, I'm not a huge Queen follower, but was mortified listening to Queen with Paul Rodgers. All of the classic Queen material was completely re-arranged, and it just didn't work for me. I'm sure others that it was "new" and "fresh", but I've always been from the camp that if it isn't broke, don't fix it!


I also like Foreigner but for me, the new guy simply can't sing Foreigner's catalogue of music the way Lou Gramm could. The sound was too different for my ears, so I simply stopped purchasing any new Foreigner music. I think the one thing Journey and Foreigner have in common is that the vast majority of fans who attend their concerts are there to hear the hits that made the band famous.

John from Boston

[journeyrock]

Not to stir things up, and not to diminish Mr. Schon, but does anyone really think Journey would have been more than a footnote in the history of rock without Perry?

You hit the nail right on the head, Moose.

[A Fire Inside]

NMT - the Augeri evangelicals didn't just intrude on the Steve Perry Group...they took it over and became the moderators. When asked why so many glowing reviews of Augeri's live shows (written by the moderators) were being posted the response was: "Perry hasn't done anything for years. What's to talk about?"

Yeah, and all you ever wanted was a place to trash Augeri without his fans to argue with, right?

Perry RARELY does anything worth talking about anymore, so what IS there to discuss? I've been to Perry boards, and they don't discuss anything of substance either. It's all, "what if you had dinner with him?? what would you ask???" and, "OMG, Neal and Jon suck!! Look at this interview!!"

Perry has been discussed in neverending circles for years. There's simply not much more to say about him (well, maybe the reissues)... it seems like you are kind of new to the "fandom" so you think there's a lot you could say, but I assure you it's nothing new. We, they, everyone has heard it all.

[journeyrock]

If that's the case, was it Journey BEFORE Perry was in the band?

Well, as we all know, they certainly had the name Journey. Unfortunately for the band calling themselves "Journey" , they couldn't have been more musically irrelevant before you know who was brought into the band. For the record, as much of a Perry fan as I have always been...I would NEVER give Perry all the credit. In fact, I doubt Journey would have had the success they realized if Cain hadn't replaced Rolie. Journey was all about the chemistry between Perry, Cain, and Schon. None of those three is as good alone as they were together, period, end of story!

John from Boston

That is so true, John.

[Moose]

If that's the case, was it Journey BEFORE Perry was in the band?

Well, as we all know, they certainly had the name Journey. Unfortunately for the band calling themselves "Journey" , they couldn't have been more musically irrelevant before you know who was brought into the band. For the record, as much of a Perry fan as I have always been...I would NEVER give Perry all the credit. In fact, I doubt Journey would have had the success they realized if Cain hadn't replaced Rolie. Journey was all about the chemistry between Perry, Cain, and Schon. None of those three is as good alone as they were together, period, end of story!

John from Boston

That is so true, John.

I second that. That 3/5 of Journey is the heart of the band.

[Deb]

If that's the case, was it Journey BEFORE Perry was in the band?

Well, as we all know, they certainly had the name Journey. Unfortunately for the band calling themselves "Journey" , they couldn't have been more musically irrelevant before you know who was brought into the band. For the record, as much of a Perry fan as I have always been...I would NEVER give Perry all the credit. In fact, I doubt Journey would have had the success they realized if Cain hadn't replaced Rolie. Journey was all about the chemistry between Perry, Cain, and Schon. None of those three is as good alone as they were together, period, end of story!

John from Boston

That is so true, John.

I second that. That 3/5 of Journey is the heart of the band.

Also agree, but I miss Rollie too, Perry and Rollie's vocals together were GREAT.

[NoMoreTails]

It's all about the sound of the band and once a sound is drastically altered (see Queen with Paul Rodgers), it just isn't the same any longer. Ever wonder why Queen felt compelled to stop calling themselves Queen and now refer to themselves as "Queen, featuring Paul Rodgers"? John from Boston

Perhaps its to say "we're not trying to replace Freddie just want to play Queen music again" on the other hand, Paul Rodgers is pretty well known on his own, possibly a marketing ploy to draw additional interest. Obviously more name recognition than Journey calling the shows Journey featuring Steve Augeri or Journey featuring Jeff Scott Soto. Also, Freddie's not here to sign away his rights to the band in order to pad his bank account, as Perry did...yes if he was against "cracking the stone" more than he was greedy, perhaps he would have fought the band on legal grounds in order to "preserve the integrity of the music."

[Deb]

It's all about the sound of the band and once a sound is drastically altered (see Queen with Paul Rodgers), it just isn't the same any longer. Ever wonder why Queen felt compelled to stop calling themselves Queen and now refer to themselves as "Queen, featuring Paul Rodgers"? John from Boston

Perhaps its to say "we're not trying to replace Freddie just want to play Queen music again" on the other hand, Paul Rodgers is pretty well known on his own, possibly a marketing ploy to draw additional interest. Obviously more name recognition than Journey calling the shows Journey featuring Steve Augeri or Journey featuring Jeff Scott Soto. Also, Freddie's not here to sign away his rights to the band in order to pad his bank account, as Perry did...yes if he was against "cracking the stone" more than he was greedy, perhaps he would have fought the band on legal grounds in order to "preserve the integrity of the music."

So would you have preferred him to hold up the band forever instead of signing his rights away......which is it. I'm sorry, but I find your last sentence laughable. At that time, how would Perry know whether "Journey" would go anywhere or not......to be padding his bank account. Maybe I don't know enough of what went down back then....so if I am way off base, somebody enlighten me.

[NoMoreTails]

It's all about the sound of the band and once a sound is drastically altered (see Queen with Paul Rodgers), it just isn't the same any longer. Ever wonder why Queen felt compelled to stop calling themselves Queen and now refer to themselves as "Queen, featuring Paul Rodgers"? John from Boston

Perhaps its to say "we're not trying to replace Freddie just want to play Queen music again" on the other hand, Paul Rodgers is pretty well known on his own, possibly a marketing ploy to draw additional interest. Obviously more name recognition than Journey calling the shows Journey featuring Steve Augeri or Journey featuring Jeff Scott Soto. Also, Freddie's not here to sign away his rights to the band in order to pad his bank account, as Perry did...yes if he was against "cracking the stone" more than he was greedy, perhaps he would have fought the band on legal grounds in order to "preserve the integrity of the music."

So would you have preferred him to hold up the band forever instead of signing his rights away......which is it. I'm sorry, but I find your last sentence laughable. At that time, how would Perry know whether "Journey" would go anywhere or not......to be padding his bank account. Maybe I don't know enough of what went down back then....so if I am way off base, somebody enlighten me.

My statement is not about what I prefer, its about what the band preferred and what Perry preferred and how I find his statement about cracking the stone to be load of bs.

[ohsherrie]

as Perry did...yes if he was against "cracking the stone" more than he was greedy, perhaps he would have fought the band on legal grounds in order to "preserve the integrity of the music."

Well yeah, he could have done that, but that might have generated a lot of negative publicity and a lot of dirty laundry on both sides could have been aired as a result. He also might have recognized that the majority of the band was against his point of view and simply capitulated out of respect for that. Maybe he even realized that the Journey name existed before his time with the band and didn't think he had an ethical right to claim legal ownership of the name. Just because he didn't want them to go on without him doesn't mean he was cold hearted and calculating about it. It just means he knew the success and name recognition had a great deal to do with his contributions and wanted to preserve the legacy of that.

I really don't see where greed plays into it that much. He could probably have just let them buy out his share of the corporation instead of agreeing to a percentage(if he actually got any, we don't know that for sure except for royalties), but who's to say which would have been worth more? Why would he have been foolish enough to just give them what he'd worked as hard as they did to build? I certainly wouldn't and don't think that from a business standpoint very many of us would.