The Journey Forum

[AR]

You can say whatever you want about Def Leppard, but they didn't need any "fake shit" to prove themselves as one of the best acts on the road today

Funny, but I heard Def Leppard's backing vocals without a single band member being on stage.

Any band that plays "Make Love Like A Man" and "Rock On" is not a rock band anymore. 2 of the worst excuses of excrememt ever recorded. I walked out on them 3 of the 4 shows I saw on this tour.

They USED to be a good rock band. They put on a great show on the "X" tour when they did side 1 of High and Dry straight through.

[mystichealer]

DELETED.

This comment is absolutely disgraceful and downright disgusting. I really wonder what the band Journey would feel if they were to read this. You call yourself a fan? You are a disgrace to the band Journey.

[Eric]

Journey had more energy than the Leps for the show I attended in Buffalo, and the crowd sensed the difference in energy levels. The Leps set was quite flat. I love Euphoria and X, but I despise covers.....

[heardonthestreet]

If Journey wasn't on its third lead singer, there wouldn't be that much to post about. With each of their three lead singers having a group of loyal followers, it brings up a lot of controversy and disagreement.

I saw Journey and Def Leppard the other night in Moline, and it was obvious why Def Leppard was headlining. They kicked ass! Journey was mediocre at best with JSS on vocals. I am not dissing JSS or any of Journey's members, but the magic of Journey is just not there without Steve Perry. It would be the same if Joe Elliott left Def Leppard, or Mick Jagger left the Rolling Stones, or Steven Tyler left Aerosmith.

See what I mean about the controversy? Someone will trash my post about Journey being lost without Perry, then a dedicated Augeri fan will chime in about how Journey is lost without Augeri, then a JSS fan will state that Journey is better off with JSS than either of the Steves. This is why there are more posts on this forum than the other forums.

I have to agree w/ you Voyager, I saw the show in Grand Rapids. Although Jeff did improve alot since the Indy show in July. The only time the vocals sounded like Journey were when Dean would come in on the choruses. One of the main reasons Lep was better was they played 20th Century Boy and were at least supporting their new cd. (The same when they toured for X, I think they played 5 or 6 songs from it that year. Great show.) Journey's most current song was I'll be alright without You (20 years old) unbelievable. It was my nephew's first time seeing either band and he really liked the show, he said Lep was better though, I agreed.

....

................................................

Nobody liked my review from that show and mine pretty much echoed yours. Glad to see that I'm not alone in my thinking.

[Rockindeano]

Gee, look at all the newbies coming in?

I wonder where they stampeded in from?

Not too hard to figure out they are a bunch of BT ers.

[Moose]

Gee, look at all the newbies coming in?

I wonder where they stampeded in from?

Not too hard to figure out they are a bunch of BT ers.

That's always an excuse for your classlessness? They are a bunch of BTers? Loser!

[MartyMoffatt]

I think what it really comes down to is that most fans don't want the lead singer of their favorite band replaced, by ANYONE! Let's face it folks, there aren't a whole lot of bands who change their lead singer and succeed. Van Halen and Genesis are the only two I can think of who ever pulled it off. I think it's also important to point out that Genesis and Van Halen were actually both more successful, on a commercial level with their "replacement" singers than they were with their originals.

John from Boston

Not sure I entirely agree with this. AC/DC did it (Brian Johnson replacing Bon Scott). Iron Maiden did it (Bruce Dickinson replacing Paul Di'Anno). Deep Purple did it (David Coverdale replacing Ian Gillan). Black Sabbath did it (Ronnie James Dio replacing Ozzy). Rainbow did it (Graham Bonnet replacing RJD). There are at least a dozen other bands I could mention who have gone on to achieve at least the same level of success with a replacement singer, so it is possible.

The fact that bands such as Journey (along with ALL the others mentioned above) are not getting the same level of commercial success as in their heyday is not due to who's singing but due to other environmental factors. The fact is they are seen as 'old hat' to the majority of younger people, who make up the vast bulk of the record buying public. Even Genesis and Van Halen are nowhere near the commercial draw they were in the 80's. More importantly, the record companies see them as less popular acts who are past their sell-by date, and prefer to push less talented bands who might turn out to be the next big thing. Young record buyers are a fickle lot.

The people who get most upset about a change of personnel, particularly a lead singer, are the really close fans such as those on this and other forums, who follow every detail about the band. But they represent a tiny fraction of the potential commercial sales for the band.

Marty

[Clasicrockldy]

Awesome post, Marty. I couldn't of said it better myself !

[Matthew]

Even Genesis and Van Halen are nowhere near the commercial draw they were in the 80's.

Yes - but both bands suffered hugely when they hired new singers in the 1990s - and I'm not sure how much we can blame the failure of those line-ups on environmental factors.

It'll be interesting to see how big the Genesis reunion will be next year. I reckon it will be absolutely huge. And if DLR rejoins VH that will be a big deal as well.

Yes - of course times have changed - but too often this argument is used as an excuse for the bad decisions, mismanagement and the declining creative standards the band itself.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Arrival was the best Album they could have done without perry and it bombed. That whole CD was awesome.

"Arrival" was strong, but Journey can do better.
Some of "Arrival" was reworked Bad English left-overs and some was written by outside Nashville writers.


The next album will be done totally in-house and will be the best thing they've done since the 80's.
You heard it here first!

[zino]

The only way Journey will return to the Main Stage is if they get Perry back.

DEF_LEPPARD_CANADA, you are full of shit. Journey has been on the Main stage every year since 1998. Wasn't your lovely DL not even selling out AAA baseball 4,000 seat stadiums a year or 2 ago? Even with Augeri Journey has played to near capacity crowds the last 4 years. I even saw then play to 50,000 (attendance as announced to the crowd) in Virginia Beach at their ocean front show.

We all know the only reason DL has added the pyro and fire to their set on this current leg of the tour is because they need more fake shit to sucker their fans.

Plus, you talk about Neal's cover band. What's with DL's shitty cover album. That's a real turd. Nobody want's to hear that cover song horse shit. Next thing DL will come out with is a Christmas cd of old Rudolf the Rednosed fuck'in Reindeer songs. That will go over well too!!!!!!!

Do us all a favor and go over to the DL board and stay the fuck over there.

Very well said ...nothing beats a good covers album ...NOt..... talk about a pile of nothing!!!!!!! Jss-Journey blew Dl off the stage when I saw them in July and I am expecting nothing but the same next week in South FLA.

[Matthew]

Arrival was the best Album they could have done without perry and it bombed. That whole CD was awesome.

"Arrival" was strong, but Journey can do better.
Some of "Arrival" was reworked Bad English left-overs and some was written by outside Nashville writers.


The next album will be done totally in-house and will be the best thing they've done since the 80's.
You heard it here first!

I reckon it will definitely be the best record since TBF...but what make you so sure it can match the 80s albums, TNC?

[RedWingFan]

Arrival was the best Album they could have done without perry and it bombed. That whole CD was awesome.

"Arrival" was strong, but Journey can do better.
Some of "Arrival" was reworked Bad English left-overs and some was written by outside Nashville writers.


The next album will be done totally in-house and will be the best thing they've done since the 80's.
You heard it here first!

Well coming after Generations which was manufactured in the out-house. Since the '80's? So you're saying that it'll will be better than Red13, Generations, Arrival, and Trial By Fire. That's not a very bold statement that I don't think will be accurate, but I do agree that it can't be worse than Generations.

[Citygirl]

You seem so sure of everything TNC... are you a band member by any chance?

[MartyMoffatt]

Yes - of course times have changed - but too often this argument is used as an excuse for the bad decisions, mismanagement and the declining creative standards the band itself.

I agree to an extent. Equally, using a nostalgic rose tinted memory of a former band member as a stick to carry on beating that dead horse is also a poor excuse of an argument (sorry about the mixed metaphors). The fact is there are a number of factors involved, but people here are unable to see shades of grey - they only see black or white.

Marty

[The_Noble_Cause]

I reckon it will definitely be the best record since TBF...but what make you so sure it can match the 80s albums, TNC?

Chemistry, chemistry, chemistry.

I've repeated this mantra-style since first coming here.
The last lineup never gelled as a collaborative creative unit.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Well coming after Generations which was manufactured in the out-house.

A few of those were "Arrival" left-overs.
If you can get past the singer variation I think it's a fine album.
It suffers from a terrible track listing because Neal was busy funneling Grey Goose into his gullet on tour w/ SS.

Since the '80's? So you're saying that it'll will be better than Red13, Generations, Arrival, and Trial By Fire. That's not a very bold statement that I don't think will be accurate, but I do agree that it can't be worse than Generations.

Most solid album since "Frontiers".
Bank on it!

[Matthew]

Yes - of course times have changed - but too often this argument is used as an excuse for the bad decisions, mismanagement and the declining creative standards the band itself.

I agree to an extent. Equally, using a nostalgic rose tinted memory of a former band member as a stick to carry on beating that dead horse is also a poor excuse of an argument (sorry about the mixed metaphors). The fact is there are a number of factors involved, but people here are unable to see shades of grey - they only see black or white.

Marty

True, Marty - but it could be argued that using an inferior replacement to carry on beating a dead horse is the saddest thing of all.

[The_Noble_Cause]

You seem so sure of everything TNC... are you a band member by any chance?

Nope. Average schlub w/ gravy stains on his wifebeater much like yourself.

[Blueskies]

You seem so sure of everything TNC... are you a band member by any chance?

Nope. Average schlub w/ gravy stains on his wifebeater much like yourself.

[Enigma869]

If you can get past the singer variation I think it's a fine album.

There are many Journey fans who thought Generations was an abortion of a CD. Honestly, I think having Ross, Neal, and Cain sing was just one part of the nightmare that became Generations. The other piece of Generations that really stunned me was how amateur the quality sounded. Let me state for the record, that I don't know very much about recording music or music studios. That said, Generations sounded as if it was recorded in some guy's garage in mono, instead of stereo. It's probably the worst sounding (and I'm not talking about the music...although, that sucked too) CD I've ever listened to.


John from Boston

[Blueskies]

If you can get past the singer variation I think it's a fine album.

There are many Journey fans who thought Generations was an abortion of a CD. Honestly, I think having Ross, Neal, and Cain sing was just one part of the nightmare that became Generations. The other piece of Generations that really stunned me was how amateur the quality sounded. Let me state for the record, that I don't know very much about recording music or music studios. That said, Generations sounded as if it was recorded in some guy's garage in mono, instead of stereo. It's probably the worst sounding (and I'm not talking about the music...although, that sucked too) CD I've ever listened to.


John from Boston

u r nut's! .....Ross should never sing, though!

[Enigma869]

Not sure I entirely agree with this. AC/DC did it (Brian Johnson replacing Bon Scott). Iron Maiden did it (Bruce Dickinson replacing Paul Di'Anno). Deep Purple did it (David Coverdale replacing Ian Gillan). Black Sabbath did it (Ronnie James Dio replacing Ozzy). Rainbow did it (Graham Bonnet replacing RJD). There are at least a dozen other bands I could mention who have gone on to achieve at least the same level of success with a replacement singer, so it is possible.

The fact that bands such as Journey (along with ALL the others mentioned above) are not getting the same level of commercial success as in their heyday is not due to who's singing but due to other environmental factors. The fact is they are seen as 'old hat' to the majority of younger people, who make up the vast bulk of the record buying public. Even Genesis and Van Halen are nowhere near the commercial draw they were in the 80's. More importantly, the record companies see them as less popular acts who are past their sell-by date, and prefer to push less talented bands who might turn out to be the next big thing. Young record buyers are a fickle lot.

The people who get most upset about a change of personnel, particularly a lead singer, are the really close fans such as those on this and other forums, who follow every detail about the band. But they represent a tiny fraction of the potential commercial sales for the band.

Marty

For the record Marty, I'm really not overly familiar with many of the bands you mentioned. I honestly didn't even know that Black Sabbath continued after Ozzy left. Sabbath isn't really my genre of music, but, the only songs I'm familiar with that have Sabbath's name on them are when Ozzy was their frontman. In terms of the other bands you mentioned, I can't say I really have ever listened to any of them, so I really don't know how well received the replacement lead singers were received by their fans.

Honestly, I think comparing Journey to any of the bands you mentioned simply doesn't work. I used Genesis and VH as examples because they are bands who have had similar commercial success, in terms of the main stream (i.e. crossover into the world of popular music). Out of every band you mentioned, I believe only AC/DC ever had a crossover song with "You Shook Me All Night Long", and I don't know much about AC/DC, so I'm not sure if that was their replacement singer or not, on vocals. My larger point was that I think that it is VERY difficult to have a band with the success that Journey had, to replace a voice that was so identifiable to so many people. Even though I don't know a lot about the bands you listed, I suspect that there are probably many hardcore fans of all of those bands who did not embrace the change of vocalists, and probably still don't.

Incidentally, I don't disgree with you that there is definitely a certain element of the calendar reading 2006 and 1983 that would definitely have some impact on how a given band's music is received. That said, it hasn't seemed to affect bands like Bon Jovi, Aerosmith or The Rolling Stones, so clearly bands can and do have staying power if the right people are steering the ship. I'm not sure if Journey would ever have commercial success again, even if Perry did re-join Journey (which is NEVER happening!). Having said that, I can guarantee you that if Perry ever put out a CD with Journey again, it would sell more copies than any of their Non-Perry cd's combined, and that would not just be a coincidence!

John from Boston

[ohsherrie]

For the record Marty, I'm really not overly familiar with many of the bands you mentioned. I honestly didn't even know that Black Sabbath continued after Ozzy left. Sabbath isn't really my genre of music, but, the only songs I'm familiar with that have Sabbath's name on them are when Ozzy was their frontman. In terms of the other bands you mentioned, I can't say I really have ever listened to any of them, so I really don't know how well received the replacement lead singers were received by their fans.

Honestly, I think comparing Journey to any of the bands you mentioned simply doesn't work. I used Genesis and VH as examples because they are bands who have had similar commercial success, in terms of the main stream (i.e. crossover into the world of popular music). Out of every band you mentioned, I believe only AC/DC ever had a crossover song with "You Shook Me All Night Long", and I don't know much about AC/DC, so I'm not sure if that was their replacement singer or not, on vocals. My larger point was that I think that it is VERY difficult to have a band with the success that Journey had, to replace a voice that was so identifiable to so many people. Even though I don't know a lot about the bands you listed, I suspect that there are probably many hardcore fans of all of those bands who did not embrace the change of vocalists, and probably still don't.

Incidentally, I don't disgree with you that there is definitely a certain element of the calendar reading 2006 and 1983 that would definitely have some impact on how a given band's music is received. That said, it hasn't seemed to affect bands like Bon Jovi, Aerosmith or The Rolling Stones, so clearly bands can and do have staying power if the right people are steering the ship. I'm not sure if Journey would ever have commercial success again, even if Perry did re-join Journey (which is NEVER happening!). Having said that, I can guarantee you that if Perry ever put out a CD with Journey again, it would sell more copies than any of their Non-Perry cd's combined, and that would not just be a coincidence!

John from Boston

Great post John. I know very little about the bands that Marty mentioned other than their names. I think the main difference between them and Journey in this comparison is that none of those frontmen were practically household names in their heyday. Steve Perry was and is a star in his own right where those other guys were no more well known than the other members of the bands they were in.

[The_Noble_Cause]

There are many Journey fans who thought Generations was an abortion of a CD.

And some fans thought "Arrival" was a sonic miscarriage, as well.
Big whoop.

Honestly, I think having Ross, Neal, and Cain sing was just one part of the nightmare that became Generations.

You're showing your ignorance.
A diversity of singers is something the band has utlized previously.
You're right, Ross's vocal sounds a little buffoon-ish and is more shticky than I would have liked.
Either way, the song is still solid.
I actually think it features a stronger chorus than some of the other tracks on there.

The other piece of Generations that really stunned me was how amateur the quality sounded. Let me state for the record, that I don't know very much about recording music or music studios. That said, Generations sounded as if it was recorded in some guy's garage in mono, instead of stereo.

Depends on the system you listen to.
Same deal w/ "Arrival".
Some say the mix is too muddy, some say its crisp and upfront etc et.

I do think the band could aim better.
TBF set the benchmark for quality production - so much so that some argue it's overproduced!

(and I'm not talking about the music...although, that sucked too) CD I've ever listened to.

Jon and Neal didn't forget the basics of songwriting overnight.
There are many solid tracks on there.
"Faith in the Heartland" is a true Journey epic.
"Place in Your Heart" and "A Better Life" is classic AOR through and through.
"Out of Harms Way" is classic Journey with some raw bite.

You're dismissive write-off of the entire album negates any valid points you might have.

[MartyMoffatt]

For the record Marty, I'm really not overly familiar with many of the bands you mentioned. I honestly didn't even know that Black Sabbath continued after Ozzy left. Sabbath isn't really my genre of music, but, the only songs I'm familiar with that have Sabbath's name on them are when Ozzy was their frontman. In terms of the other bands you mentioned, I can't say I really have ever listened to any of them, so I really don't know how well received the replacement lead singers were received by their fans.

Honestly, I think comparing Journey to any of the bands you mentioned simply doesn't work. I used Genesis and VH as examples because they are bands who have had similar commercial success, in terms of the main stream (i.e. crossover into the world of popular music). Out of every band you mentioned, I believe only AC/DC ever had a crossover song with "You Shook Me All Night Long", and I don't know much about AC/DC, so I'm not sure if that was their replacement singer or not, on vocals. My larger point was that I think that it is VERY difficult to have a band with the success that Journey had, to replace a voice that was so identifiable to so many people. Even though I don't know a lot about the bands you listed, I suspect that there are probably many hardcore fans of all of those bands who did not embrace the change of vocalists, and probably still don't.

Incidentally, I don't disgree with you that there is definitely a certain element of the calendar reading 2006 and 1983 that would definitely have some impact on how a given band's music is received. That said, it hasn't seemed to affect bands like Bon Jovi, Aerosmith or The Rolling Stones, so clearly bands can and do have staying power if the right people are steering the ship. I'm not sure if Journey would ever have commercial success again, even if Perry did re-join Journey (which is NEVER happening!). Having said that, I can guarantee you that if Perry ever put out a CD with Journey again, it would sell more copies than any of their Non-Perry cd's combined, and that would not just be a coincidence!

John from Boston

Great post John. I know very little about the bands that Marty mentioned other than their names. I think the main difference between them and Journey in this comparison is that none of those frontmen were practically household names in their heyday. Steve Perry was and is a star in his own right where those other guys were no more well known than the other members of the bands they were in.

All of those bands I mentioned enjoyed significantly more popularity and greater commercial success than Journey here in Europe. Of those, Ronnie James Dio and David Coverdale (Whitesnake) have both gone one to enjoy even greater popularity as solo artists or with new bands. And amongst the 'rock' community all were/are household names. I admit I'm speaking from that insignificant island 3000 miles east of the US, but Steve Perry here is hardly a household name. Apart from melodic rock fans, 99% of people outside the US would have no idea who he is.

I would venture to say that all three of the big bands John mentioned - Bon Jovi, Aerosmith and Rolling Stones - have retained their superstar popularity not because of the quality of their music but because of marketing and visibility that extends beyond the music business. They are celebrities due to activities and appearances that have very little to do with purely albums or live performances, but which boost tickets and album sales anyway.

Marty

[brywool]

Well, you could always go back to BackTalk where everything is always rosey and Sugar Coated Unicorns fly in Cotton Candy Clouds made from Fairy Dust. It never rains there, it's always sunny and light, and the flowers sing "Lovin' Touchin' Squeezin'" all the live long day!

Don't be such a cotton headed ninny muggins!


Actually, it's the only place where a journey fan can actually talk freely. If you don't like it,
get the funk out.

I'll take Generations over any of the pre-Perry albums any day of the week. It's got some great songs on it.

[ArnelRox]

I'll take Generations over any of the pre-Perry albums any day of the week. It's got some great songs on it.

I suppose that's a good point if ur looking for more of the ballads-type stuff. But the pre-Perry albums are rockin' & I love them for that. To me, they show the roots of this band.

Generations, to me, only has 1 brilliant track & 1 decent one but is junk otherwise. A bored band putting out an album just to put something out but w/no real enthusiasm.

[Enigma869]

All of those bands I mentioned enjoyed significantly more popularity and greater commercial success than Journey here in Europe. Of those, Ronnie James Dio and David Coverdale (Whitesnake) have both gone one to enjoy even greater popularity as solo artists or with new bands. And amongst the 'rock' community all were/are household names. I admit I'm speaking from that insignificant island 3000 miles east of the US, but Steve Perry here is hardly a household name. Apart from melodic rock fans, 99% of people outside the US would have no idea who he is.

I would venture to say that all three of the big bands John mentioned - Bon Jovi, Aerosmith and Rolling Stones - have retained their superstar popularity not because of the quality of their music but because of marketing and visibility that extends beyond the music business. They are celebrities due to activities and appearances that have very little to do with purely albums or live performances, but which boost tickets and album sales anyway.

Marty

Hey Marty...

I did mention in my post that success usually has a lot more to do with "The right people steering the ship" (i.e. management) than pure talent. Honestly, I don't consider myself a huge fan of Aerosmith or Bon Jovi and think almost anyone I've ever heard has a better singing voice than Mick Jagger! That was really my point. I'll take Journey music over any of the three bands I mentioned, ANY day!

As far as all of the bands you mentioned, I can't really comment on who the popular bands are in Europe, as I've never been on that side of the pond. Certainly, most of the groups you mentioned are well-known bands here in the US, within their fans' genre. I simply made the point that none of those bands fit in with the style of music that I grew up listening to, so couldn't really comment, intelligently, about how their fans felt about replacing lead singers.

In terms of Steve Perry being a "household name" here, I don't think he really ever became a household name in this country, either. He did have some commercial success on his own without Journey, but, I don't know that a lot of non-Journey fans really even knew that Perry was the lead singer of Journey. Some people just don't make connections like that. I'll give you a classic example of that...I was driving down the street with my brother-in-law playing a Don Henley CD many years back. He says to me "Hey, this Henley guy sounds a lot like the guy who used to be in The Eagles". That story sort of illustrates the point that most guys who are part of a band have VERY anonymous names with most fans.

I think when the replacement lead singer sounds vastly different than the sound most fans have become accustomed to (and for the record, I am not suggesting that is the case with Journey...I still need to hear a CD before making that decision), that's when it becomes a real issue for said band and when they start to lose their legions of loyal fans.

John from Boston

[ohsherrie]

All of those bands I mentioned enjoyed significantly more popularity and greater commercial success than Journey here in Europe. Of those, Ronnie James Dio and David Coverdale (Whitesnake) have both gone one to enjoy even greater popularity as solo artists or with new bands. And amongst the 'rock' community all were/are household names. I admit I'm speaking from that insignificant island 3000 miles east of the US, but Steve Perry here is hardly a household name. Apart from melodic rock fans, 99% of people outside the US would have no idea who he is.

I would venture to say that all three of the big bands John mentioned - Bon Jovi, Aerosmith and Rolling Stones - have retained their superstar popularity not because of the quality of their music but because of marketing and visibility that extends beyond the music business. They are celebrities due to activities and appearances that have very little to do with purely albums or live performances, but which boost tickets and album sales anyway.

Marty

I don't know much about music popularity in Europe either Marty. I know those other bands you mentioned were popular over here, but their frontmen weren't as well known or as closely associated with their signature sound as Steve Perry was to Journey. What I meant by household name was that anyone who listened to top 40 radio in the early to mid '80s knew that Steve Perry was the vocal force of Journey. Especially after Street Talk was released and the We Are The World Event.