OT--great pic on drudgereport.com 11/1

[The_Noble_Cause]

I don't believe for a second that he compared US soldiers to that of Nazis.

That's not what I said.

[ohsherrie]

Guys,(PC and Eric)

It's beginning to look to me as if you guys are scrambling to justify your positions much as the Reps are in the imminent elections. In the real world the justifications you guys are touting just don't work. I live in the real world, not the make believe USA that the Reps would like us to believe exists.

I'm out of time for this tonight.

Good debate. Thanks to you both.

[conversationpc]

It's beginning to look to me as if you guys are scrambling to justify your positions much as the Reps are in the imminent elections. In the real world the justifications you guys are touting just don't work. I live in the real world, not the make believe USA that the Reps would like us to believe exists.

Of course we're justifying our positions. That's what this is all about. For you to claim that you're not doing the same is to be dishonest.

If you can't accept the facts of a booming economy, for instance, then it appears that you don't exactly have both feet on the ground, either.

[whocares]

I just can't stop laughing at the comment about "Oh Oh Oh O'Reillyyyyyy" being a respected newsman. Didn't he start off in shit TV, What was it? A Current Affair, or some such RAG TV, wasn't it? Yeah, that's solid news reporting there. It only got worse from there.

[conversationpc]

I just can't stop laughing at the comment about "Oh Oh Oh O'Reillyyyyyy" being a respected newsman. Didn't he start off in shit TV, What was it? A Current Affair, or some such RAG TV, wasn't it? Yeah, that's solid news reporting there. It only got worse from there.

Boy, that's an intelligent comment there, isn't it?

[Eric]

I don't believe for a second that he compared US soldiers to that of Nazis.

That's not what I said.

I'm sorry...your right

[Eric]

I just can't stop laughing at the comment about "Oh Oh Oh O'Reillyyyyyy" being a respected newsman. Didn't he start off in shit TV, What was it? A Current Affair, or some such RAG TV, wasn't it? Yeah, that's solid news reporting there. It only got worse from there.

Actually, he worked at CBS and ABC I believe (he was a correspondent for ABC in the mid 80's)...and I know he was a war correspondent too I THINK when the Contra fighters during the war against Nicaragua’s Sandinista government. He is Harvard educated. I think the "rag" show you mentioned was Inside Edition.

You clearly don't know much about his background.

You've obviously never ready any of his books or anything, so I'm not sure your opinion carries much weight.

[Barb]

But, pc, we can't stay there forever letting our kids get killed to keep them occupied, and while our troops are occupied there, Iran and North Korea are getting very brave. Nothing is getting better.

Iran is precisely the reason we CAN'T leave iraq in a vulnerable state. If we leave and Iraq cannot defend itself, Iran takes over that country and we are completely screwed. (So is the rest of the world, btw.)

[Matthew]

But, pc, we can't stay there forever letting our kids get killed to keep them occupied, and while our troops are occupied there, Iran and North Korea are getting very brave. Nothing is getting better.

Iran is precisely the reason we CAN'T leave iraq in a vulnerable state. If we leave and Iraq cannot defend itself, Iran takes over that country and we are completely screwed. (So is the rest of the world, btw.)

That's right - which makes one wonder why the US and Britain made Iraq so vulnerable in the first place.

[ohsherrie]

It's beginning to look to me as if you guys are scrambling to justify your positions much as the Reps are in the imminent elections. In the real world the justifications you guys are touting just don't work. I live in the real world, not the make believe USA that the Reps would like us to believe exists.

Of course we're justifying our positions. That's what this is all about. For you to claim that you're not doing the same is to be dishonest.

If you can't accept the facts of a booming economy, for instance, then it appears that you don't exactly have both feet on the ground, either.

Good morning. Of course I'm justifying my position. That was a joke PC, I enjoyed this discussion. I'll accept this booming economy as soon as I see some signs of it other than in Rep rhetoric and misleading stock market numbers. Of course, for certain people, like Haliburton and the drug, insurance, and oil company execs, I'm sure this administration is a real wind fall. The blue collar working segment of the population(the largest segment) is being squeezed under the poverty level by declining earning potential and a rising cost of living with no medical coverage. That's the real world that I have my feet on the ground in. Anyone who can't see or won't recognize that must have their head in a Bush manufactured smoke screen.

[ohsherrie]

But, pc, we can't stay there forever letting our kids get killed to keep them occupied, and while our troops are occupied there, Iran and North Korea are getting very brave. Nothing is getting better.

Iran is precisely the reason we CAN'T leave iraq in a vulnerable state. If we leave and Iraq cannot defend itself, Iran takes over that country and we are completely screwed. (So is the rest of the world, btw.)

That's right - which makes one wonder why the US and Britain made Iraq so vulnerable in the first place.

Well Matt, it was to make us all safer of course. I have to say the Brits seem to be doing a better job of homeland security though.

[conversationpc]

I'll accept this booming economy as soon as I see some signs of it other than in Rep rhetoric and misleading stock market numbers. Of course, for certain people, like Haliburton and the drug, insurance, and oil company execs...

There's another fallacy, that the "big oil" companies are just totally gouging the American consumer. If anyone should be blamed for high gasoline prices, it should be the government. They make way more profit on a gallon of gas than the oil companies do. In fact, the profit margin for oil companies is somewhere between 7% and 10%, which is lower than most industries in this country. Also, keep in mind that the Democrats are the ones who typically vote for higher gasoline taxes, so you can thank them just as much for the "big oil" problem.

[ohsherrie]

I'll accept this booming economy as soon as I see some signs of it other than in Rep rhetoric and misleading stock market numbers. Of course, for certain people, like Haliburton and the drug, insurance, and oil company execs...

There's another fallacy, that the "big oil" companies are just totally gouging the American consumer. If anyone should be blamed for high gasoline prices, it should be the government. They make way more profit on a gallon of gas than the oil companies do. In fact, the profit margin for oil companies is somewhere between 7% and 10%, which is lower than most industries in this country. Also, keep in mind that the Democrats are the ones who typically vote for higher gasoline taxes, so you can thank them just as much for the "big oil" problem.

Did you see their profit figures a while back? The "big oil" problem may be the biggest scam being perpetrated on us(well, other than the war in Iraq) and yes, I know government has a lot to do with it. Have you noticed that every time we have a shortage and prices skyrocket we're in a Rep administration? Nixon, Reagan, now Bush. It's happened in each of those administrations, but I don't recall ever having that happen when a Dem was in office.

Wasn't it just the strangest phenomenon that the prices fell drastically just in time for the elections?

[Eric]

Did you see their profit figures a while back? The "big oil" problem may be the biggest scam being perpetrated on us(well, other than the war in Iraq) and yes, I know government has a lot to do with it. Have you noticed that every time we have a shortage and prices skyrocket we're in a Rep administration? Nixon, Reagan, now Bush. It's happened in each of those administrations, but I don't recall ever having that happen when a Dem was in office

Ever hear of Jimma Cawta

[conversationpc]

Did you see their profit figures a while back? The "big oil" problem may be the biggest scam being perpetrated on us(well, other than the war in Iraq) and yes, I know government has a lot to do with it. Have you noticed that every time we have a shortage and prices skyrocket we're in a Rep administration? Nixon, Reagan, now Bush. It's happened in each of those administrations, but I don't recall ever having that happen when a Dem was in office.

I assume the profit figures you're talking about are probably the total profits, not profit margin. Profit margin, which most people don't even know what it is, is what determines how much money the companies actually make on a gallon of gas, which really isn't all that much and hasn't changed drastically since those companies have been in business.

Besides that, after I first moved here to Indiana, I saw prices as low as $0.79/gallon. Not long after, with Clinton in office, they shot way back up to around $1.70, $1.80, etc.



This chart shows that gas prices were already on the way up during the Carter administration and eventually went down slightly during Reagan's terms. They stayed basically flat during Bush Sr.'s term and then actually went up during Clinton's administration. Granted, they have gone way up during George W. Bush's term but this certainly shows that there's no truth to the statement that gas prices always go way up when there are Republican presidential administrations.

This chart also shows the prices as adjusted for inflation and the trend is actually the opposite, in other words, in a downward trend during the Reagan and Bush Sr. administrations. On the other hand, the trend there is upward while Clinton was in office and again way up during George. W's term.

Anyway, we could also talk about the Democratic party being in bed with unions (especially the teacher's unions) and lawyers. Point being that the Republicans are no more beholden to lobbyists than the Democrats are.

Wasn't it just the strangest phenomenon that the prices fell drastically just in time for the elections?

The prices started going down about two or three months ago here, so I don't see that as any big conspiracy. Regardless, the prices have also started creeping back up a bit here. They were down in the $1.95 range for a while here and now they are back up to around $2.30.

[Eric]

Thanks for the chart, I've been looking for something like that.....

[RedWingFan]

Kerry just apologized. Not sure why he is apologizing if he didnt really mean what he said.

Why don't you post what he said in full?
What are you trying to hide?

Since you've appointed yourself as a surrogate hatchet man for this stinking corrupt Bush regime, let me inject some honesty in here.
Here is what Kerry said today:

"I sincerely regret that my words were misinterpreted to wrongly imply anything negative about those in uniform, and I personally apologize to any service member, family member, or American who was offended."

"Of course, I'm sorry about a botched joke, everybody knows I botched a joke."

Yeah, great apology from that elitist liberal snob. "I'm not sorry for what I said, I'm sorry that you stupid American people are too stupid to know what I meant to say. That's a great example why you need us in government to take care of you."
Thanks senator, you too TNC, for trying to defend the boob. Besides shouldn't his advice to make it in life to those college students go something like "marry wealthy widows"?

[ohsherrie]

Yeah, I can read a chart PC and Eric, and of course Enron didn't cook their books either.

When you wield as much power in the financial/political world as the oil companies do you can get away with anything and it will all look perfectly legal. Especially during a republican administration.

[conversationpc]

Yeah, I can read a chart PC and Eric, and of course Enron didn't cook their books either.

When you wield as much power in the financial/political world as the oil companies do you can get away with anything and it will all look perfectly legal. Especially during a republican administration.

The numbers on that chart are based on real, published numbers. Nice way to try to dodge the facts.

Anyway, if the Enron reference is supposed to somehow be a slam against the Bush administration, let's not forget that their troubles were well underway before Bush and during the Clinton administration.

You still haven't responded to the chart I posted. It clearly shows your statements were wrong when you said...

Have you noticed that every time we have a shortage and prices skyrocket we're in a Rep administration? Nixon, Reagan, now Bush. It's happened in each of those administrations, but I don't recall ever having that happen when a Dem was in office.

Actually, the last time I remember any major gas shortage was during Carter's administration. That was when the energy crisis caused extremely long lines at the gas pump. Carter's policies played a major role in that. Besides that, the prices stayed fairly flat while Nixon was in office, while they were actually going way down when adjusting for inflation. Prices were actually lower by the end of the Reagan administration and substantially lower considering inflation. The prices are definitely up both in real terms and with inflation during this administration but then you also have to add in the major effects of the instability in the middle east and worldwide terrorism.

Regardless, higher prices don't necessarily mean higher profit margins. Despite larger total profits, profit margins have stayed about the same over the last three decades, which means that even though total profits go up, the cost of getting the oil out of the ground, refining it, and getting it to market is also increasing. That's why the profit margins stay so steady in that business.

[yak]

It has everything to do with establishing that the guy has a track record of trashing the military.

That.......and the fact that he's hitched his wagon to a ketchup bottle. He's nothing but an arrogant elite-ist.

[ohsherrie]

Yes PC, I did acknowledge the chart. What I meant by the Enron remark is that the published numbers that it was based on are probably as reliable as the Enron books. I really didn't think about the Bush connection until after you brought it up. I do think it's a bit of a coincidence though that Bush severed his financial connections with them just in time, don't you? Are you telling me you honestly don't believe those published numbers are manipulated just like the supply? Ok, then I guess you also don't believe Haliburton is taking advantage of the war to gouge the pentagon. Maybe I should envy you you're naivete.

[yak]

Hey ohsherrie,

Ever read the book "Blood Sport" by James B. Stewart? I'd love to see you try and spin that one. On the other hand, I don't suppose you'd want to even go THERE.

[conversationpc]

Yes PC, I did acknowledge the chart. What I meant by the Enron remark is that the published numbers that it was based on are probably as reliable as the Enron books. I really didn't think about the Bush connection until after you brought it up. I do think it's a bit of a coincidence though that Bush severed his financial connections with them just in time, don't you? Are you telling me you honestly don't believe those published numbers are manipulated just like the supply? Ok, then I guess you also don't believe Haliburton is taking advantage of the war to gouge the pentagon. Maybe I should envy you you're naivete.

I didn't say that all of the motives of those running Halliburton are totally pure. The way a lot of big business are run these days is contemptible. However, if you're referring to Halliburton's involvement in Iraq, I've heard from multiple sources that they are the only American company that has the capital and the infrastructure that is needed to do the job they are doing in Iraq.

I don't think Bush's financial connections to Enron were anything out of the ordinary. I'm sure there are many Democrats that had ties to that company who cut the cords, so to speak, either right before or right after the news began breaking about their financial and criminal troubles.

I'm not naive, but I'm also a realist. Just because some big businesses are involved in shady business deals, doesn't mean that all are. Republicans have big business ties and Democrats have big business ties. It goes both ways, it's just that both sides have different ties.

[Eric]

Yeah, Halliburton is arguable the best in the world at what they do. And Cheney is not making any money off of anything, he did have deferred payment is all.

[ohsherrie]

I didn't say that all of the motives of those running Halliburton are totally pure. The way a lot of big business are run these days is contemptible. However, if you're referring to Halliburton's involvement in Iraq, I've heard from multiple sources that they are the only American company that has the capital and the infrastructure that is needed to do the job they are doing in Iraq.

I don't think Bush's financial connections to Enron were anything out of the ordinary. I'm sure there are many Democrats that had ties to that company who cut the cords, so to speak, either right before or right after the news began breaking about their financial and criminal troubles.

I'm not naive, but I'm also a realist. Just because some big businesses are involved in shady business deals, doesn't mean that all are. Republicans have big business ties and Democrats have big business ties. It goes both ways, it's just that both sides have different ties.

I don't think they're all contemptible either Dave, but I fully believe that within the connection between our government and the oil industry there are many contemptible economic/political dealings. As for Halliburton's being the only company qualified to do what's being done in Iraq, I find that a little bit shady in itself.

I also don't think the Dems are innocent in this area. It's just that I trust what they do with this country's economy and foreign policy more than the Reps.

[squirt1]

Kerry lives in the past. I remember the draft in the 60's .If you went to college you could get a deferment,I believe and join the ROTC. So what he said was true in his world,the world of the 60's. Today half of the soldiers have gollege degrees and it is all volunteer. I think the re-sign up % is 66%. The Dems have locked him up along with Nancy Pulosi to prevent anymore misspeaks. Bigger loose cannons,I can't remember in years. Someone told this joke last week on radio. Since Kerry shot himself in the foot again, do you think he will put in for another Purple Heart?

[conversationpc]

As for Halliburton's being the only company qualified to do what's being done in Iraq, I find that a little bit shady in itself.

Slight correction here...They are the only American company qualified to do the job in Iraq. I believe there was a company from France and maybe a few other foreign companies who could've been selected but they did the right thing in awarding the contract to the only American company that could do the job. There's nothing shady in that. It's a big job and they are the only ones here capable of doing it efficiently.

I also don't think the Dems are innocent in this area. It's just that I trust what they do with this country's economy and foreign policy more than the Reps.

Boy, we couldn't be any farther apart on these two issues. The Republicans have lowered the taxes and not just for the top 1% of wage-earners like the libs would have us believe. My taxes went down and I'm nowhere close to being in the top 1%. The economy is not even debatable. The economy is strong right now according to all the aforementioned indicators, the very same indicators that indicated the economy was strong during Clinton's term. If Clinton got credit for the good economic numbers back then, and he should, then Bush should get credit for it now.

On another note...The gas prices shot up about 15 cents a gallon overnight here in Indiana. Must be a Democrat conspiracy to control the election outcome.

Also, the Democrat mayor of Indianapolis, Bart Peterson, yesterday moved several polling places that were located mostly in Republican districts. He did so without much publicizing and I wouldn't have even known about it had the local talk show host not been talking about it yesterday.

[ohsherrie]

Boy, we couldn't be any farther apart on these two issues.

On that point you are most assuredly right. We come full circle back to where we started. I'm not going to change your mind and you're not going to change mine, but I've thoroughly enjoyed debating with you. I'm going this afternoon to express my opinion in the only way that counts, that is if they even count them fairly.

[Eric]

that is if they even count them fairly.

Turn off Air America and come back to reality Sister!

[conversationpc]

that is if they even count them fairly.

Turn off Air America and come back to reality Sister!

I'm surprised Air America isn't being run by some greasy, snot-nosed kid, out of a basement somewhere. That network is pathetic. I'm turned off by some conservative talk show hosts but the vitriol on Air America is completely over the top.