BT Rules

[Enigma869]

I have been on BT for many years. I have been here for many. I have walked the line between them. On BT I have openly criticized the band, the website, the management and the mods from time to time. For some I have received answers or explanations, for some I have received a certain amount of sarcasm in a reply. I have even felt very close to being banned for a time period where I was almost crusading for BT to fix what they had screwed up. Am I special? Am I the only one who can get away with it? I doubt it.

HOWEVER, in the last year BT has lost it's way. There has been a very large elephant in the room and they have been given nothing to work with to take care of it.

Knox made a very good suggestion that the band and management could stand to rethink their stances on some things. Like Marty said, YouTube is new. Journey is not exactly savvy in this digital age so they stuck by their previous model of thinking. When they released the Live 2001 DVD management wanted to remove the bootleg demand. They thought they were going to be able to give their audience the quality recordings they deserved. Turned out to be more difficult than that. But they had to try and remove bootlegs to create even more consumers for official product. They didn't understand that the bootleg fans would still buy the official stuff as well. After a couple years of the rule being there, the die hard fans on BT took to policing bootlegs and so the rule took a life of it's own. Then comes YouTube...a new way to share boots, and without money changing hands. That money was what made bootlegs illegal and it was the band's primary defense. So now they are using "creative or quality control" as their reason. They still do not understand what fans want. Finally, from what I have heard YouTube has made concessions to Warner (I think that is the company involved) to pay a fee for liscensing. So yet again 'legally' YouTube is staying ahead of the curve. Journey needs to get ahead of the curve.

If Journey were to provide these clips, ANY clips on a regular basis (much like Perryville does/did) you would see a positive response from their users. And the main site would certainly get more hits. If they had revamped the website to truly reflect Generations then they probably could have driven more sales. www.journeymusic.com is a promotion site for Journey. The forum is a bonus, but not specifically there for promotion. If you go to www.journeymusic.com you see very little promotion for Journey. And I have seen better MySpace pages than the site Journey has. We are talking 15 year old kids putting more thought into 3 pages on a free space than this band does. And they are changing them and modifying them, adding content more frequently...almost daily. Put one person in charge of regularly updating the main site. Every Monday there should be an update.

As for the mods at BT, I actually think they have a good group in place now. Most times CJ leads very well. I know John had a problem, but it appears to me that is the exception not the norm for CJ. Marty and Cathy and Sarah do fine. Miles is a bit long winded and toes the management line a bit much. Rusty...fits in too well with the love-fests. I think the main problem is that some of the mods no longer participate on the board, they only moderate it. Probably why I like Sarah, she still participates regularly. It keeps her closer to the 'little people'. The last problem is the psuedo-mod...those regular posters who feel the need to carry out the moderation of a post or thread instead of simply accepting that the mod staff can take care of things themselves. That grows into a mob mentality and THAT is when most of the problems occur.

(BTW, the thread that got closed for talking about a YouTube clip was closed because it had the link in the thread. it wasn't the discussion, it was the physical content.)

Great post! You continue to prove what I've always said about you over at "the other place"...you've always been the voice of reason! Incidentally, to be completely fair, CJ actually did send me an email, apologizing for the original email she had sent, telling me what my opinion should be about "Generations". I have always found many of CJ's posts to be well thought out and reasonable. I was simply taken aback when I got the "scolding" through email about an opinion I had expressed. I think mods on a site have every right to admonish someone through email if a member is being profane and offensive (which I certainly wasn't being). That said, a mod should never, ever send an email to a member, telling said member what opinions they should express. That is simply way out of line, for my taste!

John from Boston

[Enigma869]

Whether or not you buy into my 'impartiality' is of no interest to me. I am at least discussing the positives and negatives of both sites which is more than the one-sided stance you seem to be taking. I have no say in the running of BT, and mentioned my Mod duties purely in the interest of disclosure, not for any bragging rights. I am trying to be impartial, but of course I accept there will be a small element of bias. I openly admit that - however I sometimes feel there are posters here who are not nearly as open about their motives.

Marty

For what it's worth, Marty...I have no "motives". As I said, I made the decision to stop posting on the other site, for the reasons I've enumerated here. I think what you're missing here is that there are many long time Journey fans who actually wanted to be a member at Journey's "official site". It just has gotten to the point that it has become too sanitized for some. You have to admit that there are far fewer postings on that site than there used to be. I am fully cognizant of the fact that some of the dropoff has been due to the "wiggle weirdos" becoming disillusioned with "Stevie Awesome's" "chronic throat infection". Having said that, there are also many people who have simply gotten frustrated with the way that site is managed and moderated. I realize that you don't personally control these issues. I'm simply making the point that we all understand that the official website of Journey is there to promote the band. I'll acquiesce to you on that point. I'm just not someone who thinks that the official website of Journey should alienate so many of its fans with the daily "positive vibes" threads and "isn't Augeri dreamy" threads. Fans of the music of Journey simply must bring more to the table than this "Tiger Beat" mentality! That site could have been a great site that still kept the best interest of Journey in mind without deleting and locking 100 threads a day (many of which were rather innocuous!)! I know this may be quite shocking to some of the mods on this site, but, believe it or not, Journey actually does have some fans who enjoy intelligent conversation and debate about the music we all love!

John from Boston

[Calbear94]

It's the tale of two extremes. Both boards have their strengths. Here, insiders feel free to speak. Over there, noone ever gets verbally sodemized. So, its freedom of speech or decorum. I am fairly certain there is a happy medium in there someplace, should some board owner/moderator choose to pursue it someday.

[Jeremey]

It's the tale of two extremes. Both boards have their strengths. Here, insiders feel free to speak. Over there, noone ever gets verbally sodemized. So, its freedom of speech or decorum. I am fairly certain there is a happy medium in there someplace, should some board owner/moderator choose to pursue it someday.

Well, I've been verbally sodomized at BackTalk, so I'm not so sure that's an accurate description.

[Monker]

I've been saying these type of things for a very, very, very long time.

I don't think anything will ever change. Who really knows why? All JourneyMusic.com IS is BT. It's as if they dedicate NO other resources to the site. When they didn't even make Generations available at the site until MONTHS into the tour, that told me they have no intention of using the site for anthing else but a forum. IMO, they've given up on it.

I've said for a long time that they should just axe the forum as part of the official site. Make it a private forum, like this one. Pay a new web team to make the site what it could be - and do it without a forum. The forum is WORTHLESS right now. What's the point in keeping things how they are?

I have been on BT for many years. I have been here for many. I have walked the line between them. On BT I have openly criticized the band, the website, the management and the mods from time to time. For some I have received answers or explanations, for some I have received a certain amount of sarcasm in a reply. I have even felt very close to being banned for a time period where I was almost crusading for BT to fix what they had screwed up. Am I special? Am I the only one who can get away with it? I doubt it.

HOWEVER, in the last year BT has lost it's way. There has been a very large elephant in the room and they have been given nothing to work with to take care of it.

Knox made a very good suggestion that the band and management could stand to rethink their stances on some things. Like Marty said, YouTube is new. Journey is not exactly savvy in this digital age so they stuck by their previous model of thinking. When they released the Live 2001 DVD management wanted to remove the bootleg demand. They thought they were going to be able to give their audience the quality recordings they deserved. Turned out to be more difficult than that. But they had to try and remove bootlegs to create even more consumers for official product. They didn't understand that the bootleg fans would still buy the official stuff as well. After a couple years of the rule being there, the die hard fans on BT took to policing bootlegs and so the rule took a life of it's own. Then comes YouTube...a new way to share boots, and without money changing hands. That money was what made bootlegs illegal and it was the band's primary defense. So now they are using "creative or quality control" as their reason. They still do not understand what fans want. Finally, from what I have heard YouTube has made concessions to Warner (I think that is the company involved) to pay a fee for liscensing. So yet again 'legally' YouTube is staying ahead of the curve. Journey needs to get ahead of the curve.

If Journey were to provide these clips, ANY clips on a regular basis (much like Perryville does/did) you would see a positive response from their users. And the main site would certainly get more hits. If they had revamped the website to truly reflect Generations then they probably could have driven more sales. www.journeymusic.com is a promotion site for Journey. The forum is a bonus, but not specifically there for promotion. If you go to www.journeymusic.com you see very little promotion for Journey. And I have seen better MySpace pages than the site Journey has. We are talking 15 year old kids putting more thought into 3 pages on a free space than this band does. And they are changing them and modifying them, adding content more frequently...almost daily. Put one person in charge of regularly updating the main site. Every Monday there should be an update.

As for the mods at BT, I actually think they have a good group in place now. Most times CJ leads very well. I know John had a problem, but it appears to me that is the exception not the norm for CJ. Marty and Cathy and Sarah do fine. Miles is a bit long winded and toes the management line a bit much. Rusty...fits in too well with the love-fests. I think the main problem is that some of the mods no longer participate on the board, they only moderate it. Probably why I like Sarah, she still participates regularly. It keeps her closer to the 'little people'. The last problem is the psuedo-mod...those regular posters who feel the need to carry out the moderation of a post or thread instead of simply accepting that the mod staff can take care of things themselves. That grows into a mob mentality and THAT is when most of the problems occur.

(BTW, the thread that got closed for talking about a YouTube clip was closed because it had the link in the thread. it wasn't the discussion, it was the physical content.)

[Monker]

It's the tale of two extremes. Both boards have their strengths. Here, insiders feel free to speak. Over there, noone ever gets verbally sodemized. So, its freedom of speech or decorum. I am fairly certain there is a happy medium in there someplace, should some board owner/moderator choose to pursue it someday.

The problem with both forums is they both have aspects that are taken too seriously. BT takes their 'rules' and 'official' status too seriously. MR takes having Dean as a member too sriously. So, to be a member of either one, you have to put up with certain bullshit...cuz neither of the owners of the forums want to seriously address the problems.

[knox]

Well, I officially FINALLY give up on BT.

Miles wrote a long winded reply that, in a nutshell, said "Journeymusic.com is fine. It has everything it needs."

With that type of blind, ignorant view (not saying he is stupid, but rather his view of the site is ignorant and vacuumed) it is clear that nothing over there will change until someone sweeps the floor and starts fresh, beginning with the moderators.

I was hoping this WOULD be a turning point.

So, I choose MR.com exclusively - good and bad. At least the people in charge over here have a clear view of REALITY.

That place really is a vacuum. There are some GREAT people over there, no doubt about that. However, they are not in any power to make positive changes.

Andrew, thanks for this site!

[jrnysc]

Well, I officially FINALLY give up on BT.

Miles wrote a long winded reply that, in a nutshell, said "Journeymusic.com is fine. It has everything it needs."

With that type of blind, ignorant view (not saying he is stupid, but rather his view of the site is ignorant and vacuumed) it is clear that nothing over there will change until someone sweeps the floor and starts fresh, beginning with the moderators.

I was hoping this WOULD be a turning point.

So, I choose MR.com exclusively - good and bad. At least the people in charge over here have a clear view of REALITY.

That place really is a vacuum. There are some GREAT people over there, no doubt about that. However, they are not in any power to make positive changes.

Andrew, thanks for this site!

I agree buddy. I tried to jump in and call a truce, but it ain't gonna happen. That is a shame. And yes Andrew, thank you for this site!!!!

[knox]

A bit of an edit - I am through until changes are made.

Of course, that may never happen.

SC, just glad we have a great place like MR!

[jrnysc]

A bit of an edit - I am through until changes are made.

Of course, that may never happen.

SC, just glad we have a great place like MR!

Me too. And, to be honest with you, I personally feel the band members would rather come to a place like this and read the TRUTH, both good and bad rather than the bullshit wiggle shuffle or whatever the hell they call that stuff over there. Or, best wishes for Augeri part 5......They at least get a TRUTHFUL idea of what people think of them here. I am not bashing Steve A., just saying some of that stuff is ridiculous. I was hoping to have two forums to post good, adult conversation in. Not gonna happen anytime soon I'm afraid. And, if people from here start posting there, we are just gonna get booted anyway. I must say I love when JSS goes over there and paddles people occasionally!!

[MartyMoffatt]

Well, I officially FINALLY give up on BT.

Miles wrote a long winded reply that, in a nutshell, said "Journeymusic.com is fine. It has everything it needs."

With that type of blind, ignorant view (not saying he is stupid, but rather his view of the site is ignorant and vacuumed) it is clear that nothing over there will change until someone sweeps the floor and starts fresh, beginning with the moderators.

I was hoping this WOULD be a turning point.

So, I choose MR.com exclusively - good and bad. At least the people in charge over here have a clear view of REALITY.

That place really is a vacuum. There are some GREAT people over there, no doubt about that. However, they are not in any power to make positive changes.

Andrew, thanks for this site!

I think you're being premature, Knox. Miles expressed an opinion, as he is entitled to and as you are too. He performs Mod duties on BT but that doesn't mean that he, or I, or anybody else has direct control over the structure, format or content of BT (except maybe CJ, and she has to conform to management guidelines).

What did you think would happen? That BT would shut down for 10 minutes and then reappear as a completely revamped website, based on your request? Change, if there is to be a change (and I'm not saying if there is or not) takes time, and certainly nothing is likely to happen while the guys are focused on playing every night. That would be a kneejerk reaction, and pandering to the bully tactics of certain posters (I'm NOT pointing the finger at you here as your points were, in the main, relevant and reasonable)

If you'd read a little further, you'd have noticed Sarah reopened the thread to allow further discussion, but you are in danger of displaying the same closed mind that you're accusing Miles of.

Marty

[knox]

Marty, you make some good points.

I guess I just figured since Miles is a moderator, that he did have some power. And since he doesn't see a need for change it frustrated me.

I definitely do not want to be reactive, as I was in that post. I sincerely want to think things out and be productive.

BTers could very well say the same thing about this site - that it will never change. I really do see that. I would like to see some changes here as well.

Thank you for "calling me" on my post. I will try to be more intellectual and less emotional when I respond to something. I don't agree with you on some things, but I you are 100% dead on in your response to my post.

[Monker]

A bit of an edit - I am through until changes are made.

Of course, that may never happen.

SC, just glad we have a great place like MR!

Me too. And, to be honest with you, I personally feel the band members would rather come to a place like this and read the TRUTH, both good and bad rather than the bullshit wiggle shuffle or whatever the hell they call that stuff over there. Or, best wishes for Augeri part 5......They at least get a TRUTHFUL idea of what people think of them here. I am not bashing Steve A., just saying some of that stuff is ridiculous. I was hoping to have two forums to post good, adult conversation in. Not gonna happen anytime soon I'm afraid. And, if people from here start posting there, we are just gonna get booted anyway. I must say I love when JSS goes over there and paddles people occasionally!!

The band and management have the power to change things on BT and they refuse to. To say they would rather come here then BT is bullshit. They built BT with their OWN ideas and they have to deal with it. MR doesn't have to deal with the history of BT but if it became the official hangout of Journey, it would have the same difficulties of not wanting to read certain posts and wanting to censor them. Don't you see that happening to a certain degree here already? Dean gets a free ride while others are kicked off for a lot lesser offense. It's no different then on BT where Rich and others run threads in the ground until they are closed - and he does it REPEATEDLY...when others do that they get kicked off the forum - or they get kicked off the forum for MUCH less. Dean is this forum's Rich.

So, yeah, thank MR for giving your opinions more freedom then others...I'm sure Rich, and others, thank BT for the EXACT SAME THING.

[A Fire Inside]

The band and management have the power to change things on BT and they refuse to. To say they would rather come here then BT is bullshit. They built BT with their OWN ideas and they have to deal with it.

I too think this is odd. They control BT (and pay for it) yet they would rather come here? Why don't they just change their forum, then? Get rid of it or overhaul the rules and let people speak like they do here?

If I had access to them I would ask this. There's no logical reason for them to be represented by a website they hate.

[jrnysc]

That is just my opinion. They used to go to the other site and post, however one day they left and other than JSS occasionally they have not been back. He seems to post here more than there. I believe they read and keep up with what is said and goes on here pretty closely. I would certainly rather come here as stale as that board is right now. It's a shame it doesn't to be going to change.

[EightyRock]

Don't know why management feels a need for a stripped down, sanitized site, unless they are afraid they can't keep the tide turned in the direction they want. There are still fans on 3 sides...Perry only fans, Augeri only fans and now "Soto's got a brand new bag" fans. The band's revolving door of frontmen has caused a revolt in the fanbase and they are trying to keep a lid on it. I
believe if they move forward with new music and leave a great deal of the dirty dozen behind, they'll get less grief in the long run from their ESTABLISHED fanbase. It will open the door a bit wider for Soto and let the Augeri era fade off into the sunset. What it does for their wallets, however, is questionable, since casual fans with a night off to come to a show only want music they recognize.
I think they will see mutiny in the fanbase if '07 doesn't produce something kick-ass in the studio that everybody can sink their teeth into. We all love live shows and if they can't play their new stuff live, then I can see alot of people sayin', nah...no shows for me next year.
I think BT is all about maintaining propaganda for the J machine, and right now that machine is only about cranking out the dirty dozen and banning all posts that could threaten the lucrativity of the machine. This forum also helps keep those kinds of posts from bombarding BT and its moderators. That's why management would kiss Andrew's ass 7 days a week if he is up to handling the mass chaos that fills MR most days.

[Jeremey fan forever]

Do you think Augeri was really using tapes? What about Mansfield?

[Monker]

If I had access to them I would ask this. There's no logical reason for them to be represented by a website they hate.

EXACTLY. If they don't like it, axe it...and make it something in THEIR IMAGE.

[EclipticJourney]

It's no different then on BT where Rich and others run threads in the ground until they are closed - and he does it REPEATEDLY...when others do that they get kicked off the forum - or they get kicked off the forum for MUCH less. Dean is this forum's Rich.

Monker's delusional fantasy continues.

The truth, Monker was BT's Dean, or Joe Reardon, until he put his tail between his legs and left because he couldn't control the show. When will you stop shedding tears over your own BT demise?

[conversationpc]

It's no different then on BT where Rich and others run threads in the ground until they are closed - and he does it REPEATEDLY...when others do that they get kicked off the forum - or they get kicked off the forum for MUCH less. Dean is this forum's Rich.

Monker's delusional fantasy continues.

The truth, Monker was BT's Dean, or Joe Reardon, until he put his tail between his legs and left because he couldn't control the show. When will you stop shedding tears over your own BT demise?

I think it's pretty safe to say that none of the regulars here really give a flying rip over any BT demise.

[Amanda]

The truth, Monker was BT's Dean, or Joe Reardon, until he put his tail between his legs and left because he couldn't control the show. When will you stop shedding tears over your own BT demise?

I think that has the be one of the most asinine statements I've seen typed from your fingers.

[Crazie Scarab]

The truth, Monker was BT's Dean, or Joe Reardon, until he put his tail between his legs and left because he couldn't control the show. When will you stop shedding tears over your own BT demise?

I think that has the be one of the most asinine statements I've seen typed from your fingers.

You know, Amanda, you're alright! I've always liked you because you're on point. Sometimes you are funny as heck when you're on point, too. But, you're always on point. Thanks for being you!

[Enigma869]

The truth, Monker was BT's Dean, or Joe Reardon, until he put his tail between his legs and left because he couldn't control the show. When will you stop shedding tears over your own BT demise?

I think that has the be one of the most asinine statements I've seen typed from your fingers.

I don't know about that, Amanda. Rich is the king of asinine statements. Rich is the only guy I've ever seen so desperate to be a mod that he had to start his own Journey forum to give himself the title of "Chief cook and bottle washer". I've never seen such an antagonistic person, harrass so many people and then attempt to hide behind the "forum rules" and the "official site" and all the other BS Rich spews! He is probably the only person I can tolerate less from that site than the wiggle weirdos!

In all my years on that site, he's one of the few I've seen who managed to get into an argument with anyone and everyone on that site, at one point or another! He's sort of Monker with FAR less intelligence. I think Monker is a major pain in the ass, but, you know what...Monker at least has some good points from time to time! I've yet to see Rich make one single cogent point on either site! I have to believe that even most of the moderators on that site are tired of his act, but because he sleeps with his "rulebook" every night, they have no choice but to keep the head jackass in place over at Jackass Central!

John from Boston

[Jeremey fan forever]

That is just my opinion. They used to go to the other site and post, however one day they left and other than JSS occasionally they have not been back. He seems to post here more than there. I believe they read and keep up with what is said and goes on here pretty closely. I would certainly rather come here as stale as that board is right now. It's a shame it doesn't to be going to change.

That's the thing that is so puzzling about it! You know, I'm sure they come here more like you say, but isn't that weird? I mean, if they didn't have such censure and banality there, they wouldn't need to come here! The fact that even Journey thinks the official site sucks is telling. So why don't they just stop making it so bad?

[Jeremey fan forever]

The truth, Monker was BT's Dean, or Joe Reardon, until he put his tail between his legs and left because he couldn't control the show. When will you stop shedding tears over your own BT demise?

I think that has the be one of the most asinine statements I've seen typed from your fingers.

I don't know about that, Amanda. Rich is the king of asinine statements. Rich is the only guy I've ever seen so desperate to be a mod that he had to start his own Journey forum to give himself the title of "Chief cook and bottle washer". I've never seen such an antagonistic person, harrass so many people and then attempt to hide behind the "forum rules" and the "official site" and all the other BS Rich spews! He is probably the only person I can tolerate less from that site than the wiggle weirdos!

In all my years on that site, he's one of the few I've seen who managed to get into an argument with anyone and everyone on that site, at one point or another! He's sort of Monker with FAR less intelligence. I think Monker is a major pain in the ass, but, you know what...Monker at least has some good points from time to time! I've yet to see Rich make one single cogent point on either site! I have to believe that even most of the moderators on that site are tired of his act, but because he sleeps with his "rulebook" every night, they have no choice but to keep the head jackass in place over at Jackass Central!

John from Boston

Great post.

[MartyMoffatt]

That is just my opinion. They used to go to the other site and post, however one day they left and other than JSS occasionally they have not been back. He seems to post here more than there. I believe they read and keep up with what is said and goes on here pretty closely. I would certainly rather come here as stale as that board is right now. It's a shame it doesn't to be going to change.

That's the thing that is so puzzling about it! You know, I'm sure they come here more like you say, but isn't that weird? I mean, if they didn't have such censure and banality there, they wouldn't need to come here! The fact that even Journey thinks the official site sucks is telling. So why don't they just stop making it so bad?

I'm just playing devil's advocate here. You may be right in what you say (I have no evidence one way or the other) but your argument is fatally flawed. You say that the band don't post on BT, as though they have made a deliberate attempt to boycott it. However, apart from JSS, who regularly posts on BOTH sites, none of the rest of the band post ANYWHERE. I don't see how from this you make the assumption that the band come here more often.

I'm sure they are intelligent and IT literate enough to browse any number of forums should they so desire. I doubt they limit themselves just to MR or BT for that matter.

Marty

[Andrew]

cuz neither of the owners of the forums want to seriously address the problems.

Why don't you e-mail me your 10 point plan for fixing everything that is wrong with this forum? And until you do, shut UP.

[Jeremey fan forever]

That is just my opinion. They used to go to the other site and post, however one day they left and other than JSS occasionally they have not been back. He seems to post here more than there. I believe they read and keep up with what is said and goes on here pretty closely. I would certainly rather come here as stale as that board is right now. It's a shame it doesn't to be going to change.

That's the thing that is so puzzling about it! You know, I'm sure they come here more like you say, but isn't that weird? I mean, if they didn't have such censure and banality there, they wouldn't need to come here! The fact that even Journey thinks the official site sucks is telling. So why don't they just stop making it so bad?

I'm just playing devil's advocate here. You may be right in what you say (I have no evidence one way or the other) but your argument is fatally flawed. You say that the band don't post on BT, as though they have made a deliberate attempt to boycott it. However, apart from JSS, who regularly posts on BOTH sites, none of the rest of the band post ANYWHERE. I don't see how from this you make the assumption that the band come here more often.

I'm sure they are intelligent and IT literate enough to browse any number of forums should they so desire. I doubt they limit themselves just to MR or BT for that matter.

Marty

I don't doubt they may read somewhere other than here, but I'd bet money they don't read you know where. Go try it yourself, its impossible! H2H and wiggle threads are played out, almost anything else is censored. What's even there?

[Andrew]

Well, I officially FINALLY give up on BT.

Miles wrote a long winded reply that, in a nutshell, said "Journeymusic.com is fine. It has everything it needs."

With that type of blind, ignorant view (not saying he is stupid, but rather his view of the site is ignorant and vacuumed) it is clear that nothing over there will change until someone sweeps the floor and starts fresh, beginning with the moderators.

I was hoping this WOULD be a turning point.

So, I choose MR.com exclusively - good and bad. At least the people in charge over here have a clear view of REALITY.

That place really is a vacuum. There are some GREAT people over there, no doubt about that. However, they are not in any power to make positive changes.

Andrew, thanks for this site!

I agree buddy. I tried to jump in and call a truce, but it ain't gonna happen. That is a shame. And yes Andrew, thank you for this site!!!!

Cheers. Glad you are enjoying it (faults and all...)

[Andrew]

Dean gets a free ride while others are kicked off for a lot lesser offense. .

More incorrect statements from Monker. Dean is the ONLY person to have been given any sort of ban/holiday in recent months.