Stupid tape gate discussion

[lights1961]

yep, because I was automatic in giving Deano CRAP and physically wanting to smack him for what he did to my belief that Journey was above all this taping....For weeks not wanting to believe it all, I have come around doing a 180 since about July 18 after my first Journey concert with JSS...Deano, if we had apathy that would be worse... PASSION is what it is all about man!! With Steve Augeri, there was apathy brewing---so in 20/20 hindsight---Deano was correct in expressing his thoughts in writing...AS 2006 could have been the end of our favorite band.... JSS brings a new excitment and new level to this band I have not felt since TBF...


Rick

[AlienC]

Well, everything they did through the Augeri years was fucked. They didn't record, when they did it was subpar, and if the talent wasn't there, they wasted 10 years for nothing. Since Augeri was an adequate but not great replacement, they owe a lot to Andrew for the success they did have these 10 years. Putting the light to yellow again and making Andrew appear flaky after what he's done for them, is fucked. Maybe Andrew should put Journey on yellow for awhile, until they quit acting like a bunch of paranoid back stabbing slime balls. In the good old days, Journey did few interviews, and got little publicity. That made me imagine that they were too clean for rock and roll and just too busy writing kick ass music. Seems now that no publicity is actually good for Journey, because look at what a bunch of sleezy fuckers they are! I'm embarrassed.

And WHO gets credit for how the Augeri thing was handled? Christ, if they had to get rid of Augeri for his voice problems and JSS had the goods fine. But play the role! Where was all the "Augeri sends his love and thanks to the fans...bla bla bla" and the announcements about how "Augeri is visiting this or that specialist bla bla bla" Sure its all BS but its just what you do, and the fact that Journey and or Journey management didn't proves one or both of two things:

1. They have no class or manners whatsoever

2. They haven't a fucking clue in the world how to manage PR

Either way it sucks. I hate how this band is behaving. And look how they manage the "official" site. Could a band be more contemptous and insulting to its fans? Ever heard the one "Don't bite the hand that feeds you" Journey? And if you can't go with that, at least don't shit and piss in the dish you eat from. Journey, get your heads out of your asses and quit fucking with us. If not, just go away with some integrity. Oh, wait, its too late for that! So just fuck off then, or redeem yourselves.

I can say with some authority that the correct answer is BOTH . No one wants to stop and get off the gravy train, even if it's to save their cash cow or their integrity.
First.....They did it to Perry, why shouldn't Augeri get the same courtesy ?

Secondly..... This aversion to use the website to it's potential has been there since day 1, and it was only the gallant efforts of CJ, Cat and I that kept Back Talk alive.

You can thank the glorious manglement team it. Thats not to say the band isn't gunshy of the viral nature of the "InTARweB". I can recall MANY conversations about control (or the lack of it) and a website / forum.
Why do you think they co-opted Michael's site in the beginning? MY offensive flare up on the VH1 forum as well as my animosity towards Andrew (among others) was all reflective of the internal "culture". That I had to go was certain when it became obvious that I was not capable of concealing a truthful answer if directly asked by outsiders or provoked from within.
C'est la guerre. Manglement had wanted to clean house since 98, so they got what they wanted in that .

All they "want" is your money for swag, back catalog and re-issues. As long as Perry, et al gets paid, it's all good. No one in the band or manglement really wants to deal with the fans feelings for more than the time required for a meet and greet, or process your JourneySwag order.
Face it, it's a job for these guys at a time in their lives when they should be cashing in retirement accounts, not funding them.

My one regret is that I fell under the weight of a load I had made for myself and managed to show my ass on the way down. Fell smack into a classic corporate trap.




It's ok, though, by then I had seen the show enough.




To Andrew: sorry about that mate, just following orders, and all that....
No hard feelings , eh ?

[Saint John]

yep, because I was automatic in giving Deano CRAP and physically wanting to smack him for what he did to my belief that Journey was above all this taping....For weeks not wanting to believe it all, I have come around doing a 360 since about July 18 after my first Journey concert with JSS...Deano, if we had apathy that would be worse... PASSION is what it is all about man!! With Steve Augeri, there was apathy brewing---so in 20/20 hindsight---Deano was correct in expressing his thoughts in writing...AS 2006 could have been the end of our favorite band.... JSS brings a new excitment and new level to this band I have not felt since TBF...


Rick

If you do a 360 you actually wind up in the same place. I think you meant to say that you did a 180.

[fred_journeyman]

...It's ok, though, by then I had seen the show enough.

Hey Dude!

Nice to see you here! We chatted on the phone a few times.

[fred_journeyman]

...All they "want" is your money for swag, back catalog and re-issues. As long as Perry, et al gets paid, it's all good. No one in the band or manglement really wants to deal with the fans feelings for more than the time required for a meet and greet, or process your JourneySwag order. Face it, it's a job for these guys at a time in their lives when they should be cashing in retirement accounts, not funding them.

Wow, get ready to be pounced on.

[donnaplease]

...All they "want" is your money for swag, back catalog and re-issues. As long as Perry, et al gets paid, it's all good. No one in the band or manglement really wants to deal with the fans feelings for more than the time required for a meet and greet, or process your JourneySwag order. Face it, it's a job for these guys at a time in their lives when they should be cashing in retirement accounts, not funding them.

Wow, get ready to be pounced on.

Manglement???? Is that a freudian slip?

[lights1961]

yep, because I was automatic in giving Deano CRAP and physically wanting to smack him for what he did to my belief that Journey was above all this taping....For weeks not wanting to believe it all, I have come around doing a 360 since about July 18 after my first Journey concert with JSS...Deano, if we had apathy that would be worse... PASSION is what it is all about man!! With Steve Augeri, there was apathy brewing---so in 20/20 hindsight---Deano was correct in expressing his thoughts in writing...AS 2006 could have been the end of our favorite band.... JSS brings a new excitment and new level to this band I have not felt since TBF...


Rick

If you do a 360 you actually wind up in the same place. I think you meant to say that you did a 180.

edited my post... thanks for pointing that out...

[Monker]

Well, everything they did through the Augeri years was fucked. They didn't record, when they did it was subpar, and if the talent wasn't there, they wasted 10 years for nothing. Since Augeri was an adequate but not great replacement, they owe a lot to Andrew for the success they did have these 10 years. Putting the light to yellow again and making Andrew appear flaky after what he's done for them, is fucked. Maybe Andrew should put Journey on yellow for awhile, until they quit acting like a bunch of paranoid back stabbing slime balls. In the good old days, Journey did few interviews, and got little publicity. That made me imagine that they were too clean for rock and roll and just too busy writing kick ass music. Seems now that no publicity is actually good for Journey, because look at what a bunch of sleezy fuckers they are! I'm embarrassed.

And WHO gets credit for how the Augeri thing was handled? Christ, if they had to get rid of Augeri for his voice problems and JSS had the goods fine. But play the role! Where was all the "Augeri sends his love and thanks to the fans...bla bla bla" and the announcements about how "Augeri is visiting this or that specialist bla bla bla" Sure its all BS but its just what you do, and the fact that Journey and or Journey management didn't proves one or both of two things:

1. They have no class or manners whatsoever

2. They haven't a fucking clue in the world how to manage PR

Either way it sucks. I hate how this band is behaving. And look how they manage the "official" site. Could a band be more contemptous and insulting to its fans? Ever heard the one "Don't bite the hand that feeds you" Journey? And if you can't go with that, at least don't shit and piss in the dish you eat from. Journey, get your heads out of your asses and quit fucking with us. If not, just go away with some integrity. Oh, wait, its too late for that! So just fuck off then, or redeem yourselves.

I can say with some authority that the correct answer is BOTH . No one wants to stop and get off the gravy train, even if it's to save their cash cow or their integrity.
First.....They did it to Perry, why shouldn't Augeri get the same courtesy ?

Secondly..... This aversion to use the website to it's potential has been there since day 1, and it was only the gallant efforts of CJ, Cat and I that kept Back Talk alive.

You can thank the glorious manglement team it. Thats not to say the band isn't gunshy of the viral nature of the "InTARweB". I can recall MANY conversations about control (or the lack of it) and a website / forum.
Why do you think they co-opted Michael's site in the beginning? MY offensive flare up on the VH1 forum as well as my animosity towards Andrew (among others) was all reflective of the internal "culture". That I had to go was certain when it became obvious that I was not capable of concealing a truthful answer if directly asked by outsiders or provoked from within.
C'est la guerre. Manglement had wanted to clean house since 98, so they got what they wanted in that .

All they "want" is your money for swag, back catalog and re-issues. As long as Perry, et al gets paid, it's all good. No one in the band or manglement really wants to deal with the fans feelings for more than the time required for a meet and greet, or process your JourneySwag order.
Face it, it's a job for these guys at a time in their lives when they should be cashing in retirement accounts, not funding them.

My one regret is that I fell under the weight of a load I had made for myself and managed to show my ass on the way down. Fell smack into a classic corporate trap.




It's ok, though, by then I had seen the show enough.




To Andrew: sorry about that mate, just following orders, and all that....
No hard feelings , eh ?

Hmm, interesting.....

[Monker]

...All they "want" is your money for swag, back catalog and re-issues. As long as Perry, et al gets paid, it's all good. No one in the band or manglement really wants to deal with the fans feelings for more than the time required for a meet and greet, or process your JourneySwag order. Face it, it's a job for these guys at a time in their lives when they should be cashing in retirement accounts, not funding them.

Wow, get ready to be pounced on.

Well, he dealt with Towanda, he can deal with anything

[Crazie Scarab]

Allen Craft. Another one who only likes to stir up shit. How's it going, Allen?

[Monker]

Neal is a force of nature. The man just wants to play his guitar for people.

Then he should have told everybody to fuck off, that he wasn't going to stand behind it...and went his own course.

Of course, he tried that for five minutes...But, Soul Sirkus didn't do dick compared to Journey. Funny how money can make things

You can also make the case that they are greedy mofos.
They are all culpable, but the buck stops with Augeri.

No it doesn't. It's a band and it is a band decision. It's like saying Perry is responsible for the band continuing without him. Bullshit - in BOTH cases the BAND made the decision.

Neal was real, Jon was real, Deen was real etc etc.

And, they stood beside someone who wasn't and the BAND less then what you people expect. The buck stops with the entity, not with one person. Geez, Augeri isn't Oliver North.

It's funny...you read the interviews on THIS VERY SITE from last year and their is ABSOLUTELY NO CLUE that anybody is unhappy with anybody.

Did u actually read the interviews on this site?
Neal bemoaned that if Augeri didn't get his voice together it was going to be an extremely long tour.[/quote]

But, overall - he didn't rag on Augeri. In fact, he made a point that Augeri was working on it, that it was his mid-range that was having problems and not the high end, and he didn't really sound too concerned.

There was an overhanging cloud of malaise in the interviews and I pm-ed Andrew after reading them and immediately told him so.
Prior to that, in another interview, Neal extoled Jeff's talent over Augeri's.
Stating (paraphrasing here) "Augeri is perfect for where we're at right now, but Jeff can sing anything."

I see. So, saying somebody is PERFECT indicates that Neal is unhappy with him? Is he something even more stingy then a perfectionist?

Just prior to the UK mini-tour Neal turned on Steve and said in an interview "No, he's no Steve Perry."

Well, duh...talk about stating the obvious.

Where is all of this anger and hatred towards Augeri from Neal or ANY member of the band? It was NEVER expressed. Even in these tiny, out of context, snips it takes a leap of faith to see anything other then Neal "shooting from the hip" as he always does.

The writing was all over the wall, u just weren't paying attention.

Or, you were seeing things.

I've repeatedly said they are all at fault.
But Neal's playing was 100% real.
The only thing he is guilt of is being greedy.
Something fans have known forever.

See above, where you lay the ultimate responsibility on Augeri. They are ALL at fault.

Herbie says the band NEEDS to tour. They are all financially beholden to going out there.
Either way, I'm not going to fault them for liking money.

No, you only lay the end result at the feet of Augeri for doing EXACTLY what they all did.

[Monker]

Why WOULDN'T you be a stockholder?

Because you buy low and sell high....and Journey is WAY past their prime.

[Monker]

Or, maybe its as simple as Arrival was on Sony where they expected a lot more promotion and ability to sell their album...so why not take the time to promote it. Now they are independent and they know that no matter what they do they won't be able to sell their album...so it's better just to tour and tour to make money.

As someone who is a fan of both Journey and Def Leppard, I was just somewhat surprised that Journey didn't appear anywhere to promote such an enormous tour, while DL seemed to be on a different tv show every week of the tour! Again, it's probably the Perry bias at work again. Someone raised a very good point about your Bon Jovi/Aerosmith comparison. Jon Bon Jovi and Steven Tyler are the voices who made all of their songs famous and are still the guys leading these two bands. I know it's an "old argument" and many people don't want to believe that the lead singer is that big of a deal, but I think it really is that big of a deal. As with everything, time will tell.

John from Boston

I wonder if their hesitance to appear on TV was because they didn't do too well with the two that they did with Augeri. They sounded bad on the one I've seen(Blind Date), and from what I read on the boards after the CBS Early Show appearance that was't any better. Maybe they realized that Augeri just didn't have what it took for successful TV appearances. Not having Steve Perry fronting the band may well be part of it, but they could overcome some of that by focusing on promoting the new voice that they have now instead of just pretending they're still the band they were with Perry and hoping no one will know the difference. You're right it is a big deal when you go from the power and charisma of Perry to the lackluster voice and performance style of Augeri, but they've got another powerful, charismatic singer now.

[Saint John]

Why WOULDN'T you be a stockholder?

Because you buy low and sell high....and Journey is WAY past their prime.

No shit? While they might be past their prime it doesn't mean that they still don't make a lot of money. You could easily argue that if Journey WERE a publically traded company that the yearly return would be a nice one. They'd still be considered a "blue chip" stock. That is, an entity that has survived ups and downs, changing environments, and through it all, still makes money anually. Something they could probably do for quite a long time.

[AlienC]

Allen Craft. Another one who only likes to stir up shit. How's it going, Allen?

OHhh Really?

It appears by a simple reading of threads, this one being as illustrative as any, you all have kept the shit stirred up just fine without my input for what, 4.... 5 years?

Coming from such accomplished shit disturbers as this lot, I'm flattered you would think I even rate a mention.

Why do you want to know how I'm doing? Please let me know what agenda you're operating from and I'll craft an aswer to fit your expectations....... but, this conversation isn't about me, now is it ??

I believe the original complaint was the achingly slow pace that information oozes from the depths of Journeymusic.com and from the "horse's mouth". Given I was tasked with both ends of that horse, I can speak to that topic with some authority.
Ever hear the cliche "the more things change, the more they remain the same" ?

And still the "other guys" can scoop the official web site more times than not. that used to drive me nuts.
That's when I knew I was headed for the door. The band hates the virual nature of the IntarWEb yet won't give it's own outlet the prioity that it needs to be effective and if you don't have any dirt , you can't sling any mud, you do the math.

Whatever.... who freaking cares anyway? Much adoo about naught as The Bard would emote. Same songs, same set, (Oh wait, now Neal's on the OTHER side) sooner or later it becomes a caricature of itself and it's iconic status drops out of orbit a ring or two.

At least they scored #11 on Vh-1 Greatest Songs of the 80's........

[Monker]

) sooner or later it becomes a caricature of itself and it's iconic status drops out of orbit a ring or two.

Exactly...it becomes Spinal Tap.

At least they scored #11 on Vh-1 Greatest Songs of the 80's........

LOL.

[fred_journeyman]

It appears by a simple reading of threads, this one being as illustrative as any, you all have kept the shit stirred up just fine without my input for what, 4.... 5 years?

Coming from such accomplished shit disturbers as this lot, I'm flattered you would think I even rate a mention. ...

Welcome aboard Allen! Nice to read your posts, but then again, I always did enjoy your posts.

[Shadowsong]

...All they "want" is your money for swag, back catalog and re-issues. As long as Perry, et al gets paid, it's all good. No one in the band or manglement really wants to deal with the fans feelings for more than the time required for a meet and greet, or process your JourneySwag order. Face it, it's a job for these guys at a time in their lives when they should be cashing in retirement accounts, not funding them.

Wow, get ready to be pounced on.

Well, he dealt with Towanda, he can deal with anything

Hmmmm
I seem to remember something about this Towanda 5 years ago
and the threats involved
Wonder what brought that on?

[Crazie Scarab]

Allen Craft. Another one who only likes to stir up shit. How's it going, Allen?

OHhh Really?

It appears by a simple reading of threads, this one being as illustrative as any, you all have kept the shit stirred up just fine without my input for what, 4.... 5 years?

Coming from such accomplished shit disturbers as this lot, I'm flattered you would think I even rate a mention.

Why do you want to know how I'm doing? Please let me know what agenda you're operating from and I'll craft an aswer to fit your expectations....... but, this conversation isn't about me, now is it ??

I believe the original complaint was the achingly slow pace that information oozes from the depths of Journeymusic.com and from the "horse's mouth". Given I was tasked with both ends of that horse, I can speak to that topic with some authority.
Ever hear the cliche "the more things change, the more they remain the same" ?

And still the "other guys" can scoop the official web site more times than not. that used to drive me nuts.
That's when I knew I was headed for the door. The band hates the virual nature of the IntarWEb yet won't give it's own outlet the prioity that it needs to be effective and if you don't have any dirt , you can't sling any mud, you do the math.

Whatever.... who freaking cares anyway? Much adoo about naught as The Bard would emote. Same songs, same set, (Oh wait, now Neal's on the OTHER side) sooner or later it becomes a caricature of itself and it's iconic status drops out of orbit a ring or two.

At least they scored #11 on Vh-1 Greatest Songs of the 80's........

Allen, you came in here and immediately attacked Journey. We'll see where you go from here.

[AlienC]

Allen, you came in here and immediately attacked Journey. We'll see where you go from here.

OHhhhh, I see. When you say "attack" you really mean "criticize".... that's right, The NeoCon Zero Tolerance Behavior Guide doesn't allow for any nuance.

I guess it's OK for you to jump on my shit first post, though ??? Sure thing , Mr. Kettle..... Fucking hypocrite.....

[ArnelRox]

Secondly..... This aversion to use the website to it's potential has been there since day 1, and it was only the gallant efforts of CJ, Cat and I that kept Back Talk alive.

You can thank the glorious manglement team it. Thats not to say the band isn't gunshy of the viral nature of the "InTARweB". I can recall MANY conversations about control (or the lack of it) and a website / forum.
Why do you think they co-opted Michael's site in the beginning? MY offensive flare up on the VH1 forum as well as my animosity towards Andrew (among others) was all reflective of the internal "culture". That I had to go was certain when it became obvious that I was not capable of concealing a truthful answer if directly asked by outsiders or provoked from within.
C'est la guerre. Manglement had wanted to clean house since 98, so they got what they wanted in that .

All they "want" is your money for swag, back catalog and re-issues. As long as Perry, et al gets paid, it's all good. No one in the band or manglement really wants to deal with the fans feelings for more than the time required for a meet and greet, or process your JourneySwag order.
Face it, it's a job for these guys at a time in their lives when they should be cashing in retirement accounts, not funding them.

Who is this person? Sounds kinda like a disgruntled ex-employee to me. If I'm wrong, someone fill me in.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Then he should have told everybody to fuck off, that he wasn't going to stand behind it...and went his own course.

Neal threatened to do just that to Management.
Holding that over their heads enabled Augeri to remain shut out in the cold and for JSS to come aboard.

But, Soul Sirkus didn't do dick compared to Journey.

There were many factors that caused Sirkus to never get off the ground.
One being that mngt. stood more to gain from reaping the benefits of the Journey status quo.

No it doesn't. It's a band and it is a band decision.

Augeri is the singer and the buck ultimately stops with him.

The band got stuck mid-2005 tour and couldn't cancel their contractual obligations.
They hoped Augeri would find his way, but he never did.

They are at fault for agreeing to tour beyond that.

The UK and the Def co-tour should never have happened.
However, since no one in the band had the gumption to tell Augeri to leave, forcing him out by extensive touring was one of their few options.

But, overall - he didn't rag on Augeri. In fact, he made a point that Augeri was working on it, that it was his mid-range that was having problems and not the high end, and he didn't really sound too concerned.

As time has progressed Neal has been more and more disparaging about Augeri.
A year ago he said Augeri "has had his ups and down as our lead vocalist."
Compare these decidedly negative remarks to his comments in years gone by.

In years prior Augeri was talked about in the same light as Steve Perry or about just as good.
Now Neal's was openly saying "he's not Steve Perry."
More and more Neal's comments showed an obvious slant against Augeri.

Something was awry and anyone who had been paying attention could tell that.

Where is all of this anger and hatred towards Augeri from Neal or ANY member of the band? It was NEVER expressed.

Neal let on as much as he could about the situation - considering Steve was still a banmate.
Why would he tell people "our singer is shit" when he is trying to attract crowds and make money on tour?

He stayed adroit at his craft as he should have.
Let Augeri take care of his own problems.

Even in these tiny, out of context, snips it takes a leap of faith to see anything other then Neal "shooting from the hip" as he always does.

Not true.
I knew something was up and time has vindicated that.

Or, you were seeing things.

The proof is in the pudding.
JSS is in and Augeri is now selling counterfeit Rolexes in Times Square.

Again, u just weren't paying attention.

See above, where you lay the ultimate responsibility on Augeri. They are ALL at fault.

The singer is responsible for maintaining his instrument a.k.a. his voice.
If that fails, he should have the grace to step down.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Who is this person? Sounds kinda like a disgruntled ex-employee to me. If I'm wrong, someone fill me in.

Allen used to post on BT all the time and had worked with band even before Augeri.
He used to regale us with insider stories, such as one about Perry's dog-like hearing during the making of TBF in the studio.
One day he abruptly stated on BT "Allen doesn't work here anymore."

I have no idea why he got shit-canned, though some speculated it was because he spoke about Perry's daughter openly on the forums.
I can't believe that is the reason though.

[fred_journeyman]

I have no idea why he got shit-canned, though some speculated it was because he spoke about Perry's daughter openly on the forums.
I can't believe that is the reason though.

I tend to think he was let go for reasons he's already stated in the posts on this forum in the past few days.

[ArnelRox]

The band got stuck mid-2005 tour and couldn't cancel their contractual obligations.
They hoped Augeri would find his way, but he never did.

MID-2005???

[The_Noble_Cause]

The band got stuck mid-2005 tour and couldn't cancel their contractual obligations.
They hoped Augeri would find his way, but he never did.

MID-2005???

No more than 3-4 shows into the Generations tour they went to tape.
My point is the tour had already begun and the guys were stuck in a jam.

[The_Noble_Cause]

I tend to think he was let go for reasons he's already stated in the posts on this forum in the past few days.

Been gone for a bit, Fred.
Will try to catch up.
Would like to hear what Allen had to say.

[ArnelRox]

The band got stuck mid-2005 tour and couldn't cancel their contractual obligations.
They hoped Augeri would find his way, but he never did.

MID-2005???

No more than 3-4 shows into the Generations tour they went to tape.
My point is the tour had already begun and the guys were stuck in a jam.

Go back a little further. Enough said.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Go back a little further. Enough said.

Tapes were sporadically used as early as 2003.
Their usage became more pervasive especially by the end of the 2004 tour.
Even then, ENTIRE shows were not lipped.

The band would not earn that ignominious badge of distinction until 2005.

[ArnelRox]

Even then, ENTIRE shows were not lipped.

Ok let's not exaggerate. He DID sing Lovin' Touchin' Squeezin' & a bit here & there of other songs. It wasn't an ENTIRE show.