Open letter to Steve Augeri

[The_Noble_Cause]

What you've posted contradicts what so many have claimed: that SA was 100% lip synching.

That's because people like me or Deano don't have the time to qualify every single statement with which scant moments were actually live.
Oh sure, it can be broken down into the nitty gritty if u like.
Lord knows, the blog was extensive enough.

Tail-end portions of certain songs were live, a mid-section of FITH was live.
And as frequently noted, he did sing LTS live at every show.

But why bother stating that in every post?
Ultimately, what Augeri *truly* sang was negligible.

[whocares]

I wasn't happy I got bamboozled. I didn't go to be entertained, I went to hear LIVE music. LIVE as in NOT taped or otherwise, but actually hearing the lead singer sing 100% LIVE, THAT NIGHT.

Why should the band apologize? Everyone who went to one of the lipped shows reports about what a wonderful time they had. They got what they paid for: a nite of entertainment.

I hate when people say things FOR me. No one speaks for me, so I'd appreciate if people would stop saying EVERYONE was entertained. Entertainment to me isn't someone or a whole band covering up something that's wrong. My ticket for the concert last year said JOURNEY - LIVE. I'd expect that to include everyone, not just most of the band.

[Marc S]

Point is, you have to put it into context. These guys are in their 50s, in some respects shadows of their former selves, especially singers who just cannot sing in those registers night after night. Guitarists, Keyboards, yes and drummers, well Deen has to be the youngest now? The question I asked myself was, would I rather they DIDN'T play live as they couldn't find a singer capable of doing it all night every night or should they 'augment' what they already have? No contest for me sadly. Be aware, I love live music, especially real, live, vocalists, and some in their more twilight years can still do it.

Glenn Hughes, by far the best singer on the planet for his age; Jimmy Barnes, a throat made of Kryptonite, Steve Tyler, just age-defying. There are too many though, who can't - Coverdale, Gillan, Elliott, Bon Jovi, the list is endless. If they decided they should get a little 'help', is that such a bad thing to keep the spectacle going - whats the choice? Atonal Nu-metal? 21st century Grunge? Whatever next...?

[The_Noble_Cause]

If they decided they should get a little 'help', is that such a bad thing to keep the spectacle going - whats the choice?

Ahh, but the help Augeri was recieving thru the duration of '05 was by no means "little".
If it was, we may not have seen an internal effort for him to be ousted by his own bandmates.

[whocares]

Bullshitting the people who paid good money in some cases isn't acceptable. A "little" help as you put it Marc, isn't almost all of the vocals by one person. A little help is background harmonies, etc. NOT lead vocals.

[Matthew]

Mathew - you're quite right in that after 25 years we would have probably been impressed by anything..what you don't get is that the Manchester concert was so great BECAUSE the crowd drowned out the band -that's the way we do it over here...Neal was stunned. But its nothing new... I saw it first time at a Rush show in 1980 when the crowd drowned out Closer to the heart..instruments and all.

I've been to 2 US Journey shows and can say that British crowds are vocal to the extent that you cannot imagine in the US... ask some of the US contingent that came over for the UK shows. The reception that Neal and JSS received at the European Soul Sirkus shows in one of the things that convinced Neal to get Journey over here after soooo long.

Mark - I've never been to a concert in the US - but yes, it seems American audiences are often lukewarm and impatient compared to the UK crowds- especially when it comes to bands playing new songs or surprising choices from the back catalogue. Strange - because Americans have a worldwide reputation for being loud and brash.

Journey must now realise that they could play ANYTHING over here and get a fanatical response - so I really hope they use this freedom when they select the set-list for the 2007 tour.

[Matthew]

So why should people who wouldn't normally give a load be persuaded into dumping all over the five old men just because a HANDFUL of "passionate" fans jump up and down about it?

Fyre - it's true that some fans care passionately about this issue and some don't "give a load" - but the most important question is: did the band themselves feel it was the right thing to do? It seems they didn't - because they abandoned the use of tapes and fired the singer when the allegations spread beyond the messageboards and into the mainstream sites - such as Rolling Stone Online - which picked up on the story.

Journey could have taken the same stance as you are. They could have defended or minimized the use of tapes...or argued that the most important thing is to entertain casual fans...or simply said 'who cares?'.

But they did care. They took action by hiring a singer who can sing authentic live vocals without the use of "enhancements". And they seem a much happier band for it.

[Calbear94]

If they decided they should get a little 'help', is that such a bad thing to keep the spectacle going - whats the choice?

Ahh, but the help Augeri was recieving thru the duration of '05 was by no means "little".
If it was, we may not have seen an internal effort for him to be ousted by his own bandmates.

Has there been any evidence so far to support this theory?

[Mark H]

Mathew - you're quite right in that after 25 years we would have probably been impressed by anything..what you don't get is that the Manchester concert was so great BECAUSE the crowd drowned out the band -that's the way we do it over here...Neal was stunned. But its nothing new... I saw it first time at a Rush show in 1980 when the crowd drowned out Closer to the heart..instruments and all.

I've been to 2 US Journey shows and can say that British crowds are vocal to the extent that you cannot imagine in the US... ask some of the US contingent that came over for the UK shows. The reception that Neal and JSS received at the European Soul Sirkus shows in one of the things that convinced Neal to get Journey over here after soooo long.

Mark - I've never been to a concert in the US - but yes, it seems American audiences are often lukewarm and impatient compared to the UK crowds- especially when it comes to bands playing new songs or surprising choices from the back catalogue. Strange - because Americans have a worldwide reputation for being loud and brash.

Journey must now realise that they could play ANYTHING over here and get a fanatical response - so I really hope they use this freedom when they select the set-list for the 2007 tour.

I'm with you there.... mix it up for 2007... they even threw in Mystery Mountain at Arrowfest. i would actually like to see more of the Augeri era material on the UK tour.

[whocares]

How many songs is the band doing currently from the "Augeri Era"? How many REAL "hits" did they have during that time?

[Mark H]

How many songs is the band doing currently from the "Augeri Era"? How many REAL "hits" did they have during that time?

Currently including very few, but that doesn't mean that the shows should be limited to the dirty dozen. There were a few gems on the newer albums, 'place in you heart, FITHL, higher place etc..... a 2 and half hour set should have room for more than a few and I'm certain Jeff can do em justice. Journey haven't had a real hit in years, in terms of single sales, yet continue to produce quality songs in terms of songwriting and playing to this day.

The shows would be pretty dull for the real fans if all we got were the 'hits'

[fred_journeyman]

Currently including very few, but that doesn't mean that the shows should be limited to the dirty dozen. There were a few gems on the newer albums, 'place in you heart, FITHL, higher place etc..... a 2 and half hour set should have room for more than a few and I'm certain Jeff can do em justice. Journey haven't had a real hit in years, in terms of single sales, yet continue to produce quality songs in terms of songwriting and playing to this day.

The shows would be pretty dull for the real fans if all we got were the 'hits'

Not having been to a show since JSS took over the mic, do they do anything from ARRIVAL? If not, it would be cool to hear JSS's take on Higher Place, etc.

[Matthew]

The shows would be pretty dull for the real fans if all we got were the 'hits'

Sure - but there are many, many Perry era album tracks which must surely take priority over anything from "Arrival" and "Generations".

[Abitaman]

In some ways it's probably better that he says nothing.

I mean, if it came to it and he said something that totally went against all the stuff that's been said on here, would you believe it? And if it came to the bit where he actually said things about other band members that you didn't like, would you believe that or would you just say he was being a tit cos he got booted out?

Being quiet might be the best way...

well said-ERIC

[Wheels Of Fyre]

What you've posted contradicts what so many have claimed: that SA was 100% lip synching.

That's because people like me or Deano don't have the time to qualify every single statement with which scant moments were actually live.
Oh sure, it can be broken down into the nitty gritty if u like.
Lord knows, the blog was extensive enough.

Tail-end portions of certain songs were live, a mid-section of FITH was live.
And as frequently noted, he did sing LTS live at every show.

It's because time wasn't taken that this got blown out of proportion to begin with!

I'm still coming from the angle that there were GOOD reasons for doing what they did that NOBODY here seems to want to acknowledge or even consider. It's been boiled down to:

"SA mimed and should be dowsed in boiling oil."

Ultimately, what Augeri *truly* sang was negligible.

That's your OPINION and not gospel. You've based this opinion NOT on FACTS but on "evidence" that has questionable credibility.

The problem with this forum is that so many here want to state opinion as fact - try to jam it down the throats of others.

Ultimately, you really don't know what SA sang as - per your own admission - you don't have the time to qualify all of the testimonies.

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. The number of claims and the range of their details results in inconsistencies and contradiction YET you will sit there and say emphatically that you're speaking gospel despite not being able to process all of the testimonies due to lack of time!

Sheer madness.

[donnaplease]

The shows would be pretty dull for the real fans if all we got were the 'hits'

Sure - but there are many, many Perry era album tracks which must surely take priority over anything from "Arrival" and "Generations".

I was really hoping to hear "Mother, Father" Friday night in Baltimore...

[/img]

[Carlitto H@kk]

Not having been to a show since JSS took over the mic, do they do anything from ARRIVAL? If not, it would be cool to hear JSS's take on Higher Place, etc.

Fred, for once I couldn't agree with you more

I think Jeff would absolutely SLAY tunes like HP, To Be Alive Again, We Will Meet Again, Live and Breathe...
I never liked Augeri LIVE but ARRIVAL is a pure Journey classic in my book and should be represented
on tour with at least 1-2 tracks...

[Mike The Conqueror]

If they decided they should get a little 'help', is that such a bad thing to keep the spectacle going - whats the choice?

Ahh, but the help Augeri was recieving thru the duration of '05 was by no means "little".
If it was, we may not have seen an internal effort for him to be ousted by his own bandmates.

If that truely is the case (and I believe you are right) then shame on Jon & Neal for being greedy cowards and not being proper men to say "enough is enough" before they had to cheat. It appears that only out of complete embarrassment when regular started media picking up on Deano's obnoxious crusade that forced thier hands. I pity SA for being forced to ruin his instrument...but, he too should have been man enough to say "NO". However I would find it completely dispicable if they (a band member) outed SA to some poster on message board instead of takeing care of this business In-House. That is not how MEN operate. If that is the case then I hope JSS watches his back.

[Rockindeano]

Better yet, "Judge Not, Lest Ye Be Judged"...

Seems to be more appropriate ~

Or those without sin can cast the first stone. Lotta stone throwers on this forum.

You talking about me? Hell, I have a machine that rifles stones out at 100 per second. I love this fucker.

[AR]

I've never been to a concert in the US - but yes, it seems American audiences are often lukewarm and impatient compared to the UK crowds- especially when it comes to bands playing new songs or surprising choices from the back catalogue. Strange - because Americans have a worldwide reputation for being loud and brash.

Don't Euro's throw piss at bands when they don't like them? And what about soccer hooligans?

[Rockindeano]

It appears that only out of complete embarrassment when regular started media picking up on Deano's obnoxious crusade that forced thier hands.

My "obnoxious" crusade has given us the best fucking Journey in 20 years, some will say 23 years. Before some of you come in here and say, "way to scare off the newbie poster" I say fuck you. He calls my "crusade," "obnoxious?" Ok.
Well, my obnoxious crusade has paid HUGE Dividends and I would do it all over again in a NY Minute. I don't see anyone else...I mean not one other person having the balls to do what I did, so since nobody else did it, I can say to anyone who doesn't like it, "Fuck off."

By the way, it wasn't the regular media who picked up on it. It was Neal's reading of this Board and the Blog that brought it to the Bands' attention. Be lucky it was me, a passionate Journey fan who did this shit, because for your information, I pulled the plug on ALL media requests, be it magazine or newspaper. There was No way I was going to go too far and cripple these guys. I love these guys too much.

[Mike The Conqueror]

I'm sure that Neal had no idea before you told him...please.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Has there been any evidence so far to support this theory?

Publicly?
No, of course not.

[Carlitto H@kk]

I'm sure that Neal had no idea before you told him...please.

Come on, you can't be that shallow?
He didn't say that 'Neal didn't know'.
Neal didn't know that "fans were finding out what was going on"...
Make sense???

Back to fighting the crusades, Oh Mighty Conquerer.

[The_Noble_Cause]

I'm still coming from the angle that there were GOOD reasons for doing what they did that NOBODY here seems to want to acknowledge or even consider.

I've asked you repeatedly to concoct a scenario wherein lip synching would be acceptable.
Even if Neal or Jon's kid was sick, and they desperately needed the money from the tour for expensive treatment, that still would be completely unacceptable.

Anyway u spin it, there is no possible rationale that makes it okay.

The problem with this forum is that so many here want to state opinion as fact - try to jam it down the throats of others.

I am just stating facts for the enlightenment of the fanbase. Take it or leave it. Makes no difference to me.

Ultimately, you really don't know what SA sang as - per your own admission - you don't have the time to qualify all of the testimonies.

I said I didn't have time to qualify every statement.
That has nothing to do with knowing what Augeri sang.

The number of claims and the range of their details results in inconsistencies and contradiction YET you will sit there and say emphatically that you're speaking gospel despite not being able to process all of the testimonies due to lack of time!

It has nothing to do with processing testimonies.

It's simply easier to say the whole tour was lipped than to specifically mention the 40 seconds at the end of "Ask the Lonely" and the minute at the end of "Be Good to Yourself" and the mid-section plus low range ending of "Faith in the Heartland" etc. etc.

Get my drift?

[fred_journeyman]

Better yet, "Judge Not, Lest Ye Be Judged"...

Seems to be more appropriate ~

Or those without sin can cast the first stone. Lotta stone throwers on this forum.

You talking about me? Hell, I have a machine that rifles stones out at 100 per second. I love this fucker.

When I'm either talking about you or to you, I'll use your name. That way, you'll know for sure.

[Mike The Conqueror]

What I ment by that is that if you had conducted your "crusade" an a more congenial manner it probably would not have raised the stir that it did. But with your daily tirades at the time brought a lot more attention than it otherwise would...so you are right in that respect.

However, I don't condone how you conduct yourself and I'm sorry if I crushed your tender senibilitiesby calling it obnoxious...but your quote above is case in point.

[Marc S]

I agree, right or wrong, your manner and tone is somewhat abrasive and uncouth and perhaps we have a would-be Oliver Stone Conspiracy Uncoverer Extraordinaire in our midst who wanted his 15 minutes of fame too? Can't fault you on that. Did you ever try directly contacting Augeri, Schon or Cain suggesting they may want to address this with the 'evidence' that you had and sort it out before you went an an 'obnoxious' crusade via the message boards and ultimately the national music press?

Possibly not.

Wonder if you would have gone down the same public pillory route if it had been Perry's voice faltering, after all, 'evidence' suggests even he wouldn't have been able to do the Dirty Dozen justice at his advancing years if he'd stayed with them from TBF?

[Mark H]

I've never been to a concert in the US - but yes, it seems American audiences are often lukewarm and impatient compared to the UK crowds- especially when it comes to bands playing new songs or surprising choices from the back catalogue. Strange - because Americans have a worldwide reputation for being loud and brash.

Don't Euro's throw piss at bands when they don't like them? And what about soccer hooligans?

A little bit of information is a dangerous thing.....

Not thrown at the bands as such but at the UK Monsters of rock festival fans have been known to piss in bottles rather than lose place in the crowd and then the bottles get launched about the crowd... not exactly hygenic but dodging the bottle has became an accepted and humerous 'sport' during the setup time between bands. Was big in the 80s/90s - not sure if it still occurs (certainly didn't see any at Arrowfest this year)

As for the hooliganism, again it was a bigger problem in he 70s/80s and was blown out of all proportion by the media. Was only a small minority even then and big efforts have been made to make football more family friendly. Sad to see although it happens much less now it still occurs occasionally, mainly by gangs who go specifically to fight, often against similar gangs from the opposing club - its become more like an organised battle by a small minority and in my opinions has nothing to do with the sport and the 'combatants' merely use the colours of the club as their gang colours.

Am I seeing a pattern emerge here... supposition based on a small amount of fact. (searches for asbestos underwear )

[Mark H]

I'm still coming from the angle that there were GOOD reasons for doing what they did that NOBODY here seems to want to acknowledge or even consider.

I've asked you repeatedly to concoct a scenario wherein lip synching would be acceptable.
Even if Neal or Jon's kid was sick, and they desperately needed the money from the tour for expensive treatment, that still would be completely unacceptable.

Anyway u spin it, there is no possible rationale that makes it okay.

The problem with this forum is that so many here want to state opinion as fact - try to jam it down the throats of others.

I am just stating facts for the enlightenment of the fanbase. Take it or leave it. Makes no difference to me.

Ultimately, you really don't know what SA sang as - per your own admission - you don't have the time to qualify all of the testimonies.

I said I didn't have time to qualify every statement.
That has nothing to do with knowing what Augeri sang.

The number of claims and the range of their details results in inconsistencies and contradiction YET you will sit there and say emphatically that you're speaking gospel despite not being able to process all of the testimonies due to lack of time!

It has nothing to do with processing testimonies.

It's simply easier to say the whole tour was lipped than to specifically mention the 40 seconds at the end of "Ask the Lonely" and the minute at the end of "Be Good to Yourself" and the mid-section plus low range ending of "Faith in the Heartland" etc. etc.

Get my drift?

Not taking sides here but as deveils advocate would like to point out that:

Acceptability is a personal thing ie whats not acceptable to you maybe acceptable to to others. Its is also influenced by the available information, lipping whole shows as some have cited, would I imagine be unaceeptable to virtually all, but getting some assitance on segments may be fine by some. For me there would be no scenario where lipping a whole show would be acceptable.

Stating facts - you may know that these are facts but if you fail to provide sufficient details of your evidence you can't be surpised that some take it only as hearsay. You may well know what elements SA sang but your trying to convince a possibly hostile audience you need to back up with evidence, not merely more statements. I appreciate that you may not have the time to go into details, but all need to be careful what is said as many people have based their whole acceptance of the tapegate issue on whats been stated in this forum, and lipping the whole shows since 05 as some have cited, paints a completely different picture than assistance on some song portions.

Its not surpising that some people are sceptical about the whole issue when some (not you i might add) have stated as fact that' the whole show was lipped since 05', when from personal attendance others can attest that certain shows/songs were all live. If you cast a doubt about one statement then that throws the whole argument into question, which is after all the whole concept behind legal defence.

thats me 10 pence worth....carry on