My take on why some think BT sux and why MR gets a bad rap

[fred_journeyman]

It's never too late - as the other Deen would say....

When/if Deano changes, then I'll believe it. If he's a wonderful person away from this board, well that is swell. I just don't see that in evidence here and I doubt that the people at BT are all of a sudden going to warm up to him either.

[Lula]

Come on Fred. I've only stated facts based on my personal experiences, please don't turn this into a critique of Dean.

Critiquing him? Hardly. I simply don't see Dean through the same rose-colored glasses that you do, Lulu. I see him for how he represents himself on this board...nothing more and nothing less. My point is very simple...Dean is seen as a leader among many here. He continually instigates, critiques, denigrates and insults. All I'm saying is that if he truly wants to unite BT & MR (which he STATED he wants to do), then he should start by changing his behavior HERE. Again, this is simply an observation.

quote]

I do not see Dean through rosed color glasses, give me a break . You point out that Dean needs to change his behavior here, but you're not really giving him that chance with posts like these. Can't you just sit back and see if his apology is accepted by others before you knock him down?

[Lula]

Thank you Donna

[donnaplease]

Thank you Donna

Have a great Thanksgiving!!!

[fred_journeyman]

Funny how that always seems to happen, huh Lula? Not just by Fred, of course...

Often, those things that seem to happen are brought about by the people themselves. Glad you got to meet those two kids. You say on one hand you want to see Deano change, yet every time he leaves, the voices come out of the woodwork decrying the fact that Deano is gone and the board is boring, etc., etc., do Deano comes back with his schtick and everyone applauds and raves. Seems people only like and respect him on this board when he's being gross.

Why SHOULD Deano change? Seems like he wouldn't be accepted if he did...

[AR]

An apology, no matter how sincere, doesn't necessarily do any good. We've seen it in Hollywood. Mel Gibson and Michael Richards have made incredibly insensitive comments recently and both gave their Mea-Culpas. Do we believe them? Hard to say.

I think Dean should organize a gathering between himself and some of the members over there. A get together over dinner or something to mend fences and have everyone air out their differences. Actions always speak louder than words. Sometimes you have to go the extra mile to reach people. I know I've learned my lesson and I just want to discuss the band. Any word on the announcement?

[Lula]

I'm thinking you give Dean a lot of thought here, Fred

[donnaplease]

Funny how that always seems to happen, huh Lula? Not just by Fred, of course...

Often, those things that seem to happen are brought about by the people themselves. Glad you got to meet those two kids. You say on one hand you want to see Deano change, yet every time he leaves, the voices come out of the woodwork decrying the fact that Deano is gone and the board is boring, etc., etc., do Deano comes back with his schtick and everyone applauds and raves. Seems people only like and respect him on this board when he's being gross.

Why SHOULD Deano change? Seems like he wouldn't be accepted if he did...

Actually, Fred, what I said was that I personally did not want him to 'change', just to be a little less abrasive at times. The fact is that his forum personality is sometimes over the top, and the points he tries to make are hidden in all the excrement. This type of behavior is everywhere, we see it on TV, in the movies, and many of the most popular comedians are just like this. He happens to say things that some of us would like to say, we just don't have the 'gonads' to do it. I happen to laugh at most of what Dean writes, but I'm sure I'd have another view if I were the target of his attacks. I DO realize this. BUT, having met him, I know that he is one of the good guys. It's widely believed that this forum would not be nearly as popular (or fun) without him as it is with him here. So what I'm saying is this...don't change too much, Deano, because we would miss you.

[yulog]

An apology, no matter how sincere, doesn't necessarily do any good. We've seen it in Hollywood. Mel Gibson and Michael Richards have made incredibly insensitive comments recently and both gave their Mea-Culpas. Do we believe them? Hard to say.

I think Dean should organize a gathering between himself and some of the members over there. A get together over dinner or something to mend fences and have everyone air out their differences. Actions always speak louder than words. Sometimes you have to go the extra mile to reach people. I know I've learned my lesson and I just want to discuss the band. Any word on the announcement?

[fred_journeyman]

I do not see Dean through rosed color glasses, give me a break. You point out that Dean needs to change his behavior here, but you're not really giving him that chance with posts like these. Can't you just sit back and see if his apology is accepted by others before you knock him down?

Lulu, you do not seem to understand my point - or maybe I don't understand yours. Dean's reputation PRECEDES him with people at BT. More than that, people HERE want the gross, denigrating, insulting DEANO. Who then is NOT giving him the opportunity to change? Me? Hardly.

[fred_journeyman]

I'm thinking you give Dean a lot of thought here, Fred

Ah, sarcasm. It's a medium I work best in.

No, I don't give Dean all that much thought. Compared to how often other people talk about him, quote him, beg for his return when he leaves, my thoughts about him don't add up to much.

[Lula]

Yes Fred, sarcasm... I love it.

Happy Thanksgiving

[fred_journeyman]

Actually, Fred, what I said was that I personally did not want him to 'change', just to be a little less abrasive at times.

It seems we are getting into semantics. You say you don't want him to change, but you DO want him to be less abrasive at times, which means he should change.

The fact is that his forum personality is sometimes over the top, and the points he tries to make are hidden in all the excrement.

But people seem to love that.

This type of behavior is everywhere, we see it on TV, in the movies, and many of the most popular comedians are just like this.

Well, I guess my movie habits are different than yours. I rarely watch TV. I have over 400 DVDs and boxed sets, so I watch what I want to watch. There are only a few comedians I like - Dane Cook, Lewis Black and those guys use a great deal of intelligence in their routines. Bill Bryson's wit is also something I really enjoy reading from his books. I really don't spend a lot of time being "entertained" by the type of excrement you're talking about. Some will accuse me of being "arrogant" or whatever, but the truth is, it just doesn't entertain me. I just do not find it funny. It's completely boring to me.

He happens to say things that some of us would like to say, we just don't have the 'gonads' to do it. I happen to laugh at most of what Dean writes, but I'm sure I'd have another view if I were the target of his attacks. I DO realize this.

I'm glad you realize it. I'm sure if you were a target of his attacks, as you say you wouldn't like it in the least, but yet you laugh along with him because to you, it's entertaining.

BUT, having met him, I know that he is one of the good guys. It's widely believed that this forum would not be nearly as popular (or fun) without him as it is with him here. So what I'm saying is this...don't change too much, Deano, because we would miss you.

I believe you since most people are different in real life than they are on forums. When you meet people face to face, it's completely different, but I've never met Dean, so I do not have the perspective on him that you do. To me, Dean is nothing but a caricature because I only know him through his posts on this board.

It's unfortunate that MANY people only know Dean through his posts, which is why his efforts to UNITE BT and MR will likely fail. More power to him for trying though.

[fred_journeyman]

Yes Fred, sarcasm... I love it.

At least we agree on something...

[Monker]

While at the Baltimore show a BT poster told Dean "you disgust me." She obviously has a problem with him , lol. Funny thing, she disgusts me . Anyway, sorry I digress, I truly hope the tensions between the two sites disappear. It is so ridiculous that there is even a reason to carry on with this. We are talking internet message boards here, not real life issues. People form opinions of others based on posts and if that works for them so be it. People are judged by one another- I have been judged harshly by a handful of chicken-shits based on my realtionship with Dean. I'm simply venting at this point. I laughed about this last night with my sister. We came across pics from last Christmas of friends that have given me the cold shoulder over internet drama, unbelievable .

...and people wonder why I say I am not on message forums to make 'friends'.

[Crazie Scarab]

While at the Baltimore show a BT poster told Dean "you disgust me." She obviously has a problem with him , lol. Funny thing, she disgusts me . Anyway, sorry I digress, I truly hope the tensions between the two sites disappear. It is so ridiculous that there is even a reason to carry on with this. We are talking internet message boards here, not real life issues. People form opinions of others based on posts and if that works for them so be it. People are judged by one another- I have been judged harshly by a handful of chicken-shits based on my realtionship with Dean. I'm simply venting at this point. I laughed about this last night with my sister. We came across pics from last Christmas of friends that have given me the cold shoulder over internet drama, unbelievable .

...and people wonder why I say I am not on message forums to make 'friends'.

Dude, why would you have to say that? It's quite obvious.

[Lula]

Oh Monker. I am not on message boards to make friends, it just happens sometimes. There have been good experiences too, don't shy away .

[Monker]

Dean has made it abundantly clear he wishes he could change some of his actions, but remember he gave as good as he got from a handful of others.

Dean's reputation precedes him and he built that all by himself. If he really wanted to change, he would have done so already. He can't change and some here don't want him to change.

Exactly...his history has proven that time and time and time again.

A few at BT will eventualy piss him off, or this whole idea will be rejected by some BTers, or something else...and it will all be, "I don't give a damn whjat Journey wants. Fuck thoseBT bastards...blah, blah, blah."

[Lula]

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah....... okay Monker

[Monker]

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah....... okay Monker

It's happened on this forum. He says he's some kinda changed person, that he is on a platuae, or whatever...and days later he is back to being in the valley.

So, sorry that I don't believe it...but his history shows that he CAN'T change...even when he wants to.

And, don't blame other people, how they post, and what they say. THEY do not control Dean and what HE says. It's up to HIM, not anybody else.

[Monker]

While at the Baltimore show a BT poster told Dean "you disgust me." She obviously has a problem with him , lol. Funny thing, she disgusts me . Anyway, sorry I digress, I truly hope the tensions between the two sites disappear. It is so ridiculous that there is even a reason to carry on with this. We are talking internet message boards here, not real life issues. People form opinions of others based on posts and if that works for them so be it. People are judged by one another- I have been judged harshly by a handful of chicken-shits based on my realtionship with Dean. I'm simply venting at this point. I laughed about this last night with my sister. We came across pics from last Christmas of friends that have given me the cold shoulder over internet drama, unbelievable .

...and people wonder why I say I am not on message forums to make 'friends'.

Dude, why would you have to say that? It's quite obvious.

Because it was brought up in another thread.

[Monker]

Oh Monker. I am not on message boards to make friends, it just happens sometimes. There have been good experiences too, don't shy away .

Irrelevent. Friends you make online are not similiar in any way to friends you make face to face. They are too fleeting...as in the very example you posted.

[Crazie Scarab]

While at the Baltimore show a BT poster told Dean "you disgust me." She obviously has a problem with him , lol. Funny thing, she disgusts me . Anyway, sorry I digress, I truly hope the tensions between the two sites disappear. It is so ridiculous that there is even a reason to carry on with this. We are talking internet message boards here, not real life issues. People form opinions of others based on posts and if that works for them so be it. People are judged by one another- I have been judged harshly by a handful of chicken-shits based on my realtionship with Dean. I'm simply venting at this point. I laughed about this last night with my sister. We came across pics from last Christmas of friends that have given me the cold shoulder over internet drama, unbelievable .

...and people wonder why I say I am not on message forums to make 'friends'.

Dude, why would you have to say that? It's quite obvious.

Because it was brought up in another thread.

Sorry. Just so you know, I don't follow your dumb ass around..

[Monker]

BT sucks because they do not allow any diversity of OPINION, regardless of how it is expressed. Even if the moderators let it go, the quasi-moderators (IE peons who think they can act like moderators) jump all over it, whining about it, proking attacks...The result is threads getting close, and people getting frustrated and leaving the forum.

BT could make it work. All thjey would have to do is ban the Rich's of the forum when they take things too far. For whatever reason, they don't do that.

The result is a forum that has NO diversity...and NO balance AT ALL. So, everything is the same crap, over and over and over again.

THIS forum has received a 'bad rap' for the exact same reasons. Andrew let the Dean's of the forum do EXACTLY the same type of things the Rich's of BT did...except they got personal in their attacks and insults. Not only were those attacks and insults directed at people here, but at people at BT...and BT in general.

For whatever reason, ANDREW did very little to stop it. He should have banned Dean and others, STUCK TO HIS PUNISHMENT, and not let it get out of control. He didn't...and that type of attitude and posts are still and undertow in this forum to this very day.

So, OF COURSE MR is going to get a 'bad rap' when so much crap was allowed...it's no different then BT who allowed crap of their own. As I said before, BT has crap, MR has crap. One is brown and the other is black...but it still stinks.

I posted this at BT and thought I would share...
Let me know your thoughts

"Management has lost control of this situation; whether it be how things were handled at the start (July) or how things have been handled since the band made the decision that moving forward with Jeff is best for the band right now. Most probably being tied up with all the legalities sure hasn't helped either. Since BT is owned and operated by Journey the Band, it is no surprise that all info is guarded and all 'rumors and speculation' are quickly hushed. It is in the best interest of of The Band and Management to silence all this talk right now because, since they own that board, personnal they currently employ and represent stand to be demoralized and that just ain't good business for ANY Band or Management firm. The Mods there definitely have a job that I would not wish on anyone.

As for MR... totally different and unaffiliated entity where discussions are free to roam in different territories and folks that may have 'inside information' are free to share. All the folks that constantly rag on MR for some of the 'harsh' commentary there fail to realize that, as a source of news and info on Journey, it is a VERY valuable and reliable site if you take the time to sort thru all the muck. Andrew is a very honest and respectable journalist that has always supported this band and constantly tries to keep the BT-vs-MR wars to a minimum. Andrew's ONLY fault right now is that he tries to moderate that board on his own and that is impossible. Look at how many Mods there are there and things STILL can't be kept under control. Of course a few ugly threads and comments are gonna slip thru the cracks."

So...
How'd I do???
Is it believable???

[Andrew]

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah....... okay Monker

Seriously - just ignore it Lula. Not worth the time or effort to reply or argue. Beyond pointless.

[Monker]

While at the Baltimore show a BT poster told Dean "you disgust me." She obviously has a problem with him , lol. Funny thing, she disgusts me . Anyway, sorry I digress, I truly hope the tensions between the two sites disappear. It is so ridiculous that there is even a reason to carry on with this. We are talking internet message boards here, not real life issues. People form opinions of others based on posts and if that works for them so be it. People are judged by one another- I have been judged harshly by a handful of chicken-shits based on my realtionship with Dean. I'm simply venting at this point. I laughed about this last night with my sister. We came across pics from last Christmas of friends that have given me the cold shoulder over internet drama, unbelievable .

...and people wonder why I say I am not on message forums to make 'friends'.

Dude, why would you have to say that? It's quite obvious.

Because it was brought up in another thread.

Sorry. Just so you know, I don't follow your dumb ass around..

So, what's your point of even replying to these? Are you trying to be my bud or something? Are you trying to bait me?

[Enigma869]

BT sucks because they do not allow any diversity of OPINION, regardless of how it is expressed. Even if the moderators let it go, the quasi-moderators (IE peons who think they can act like moderators) jump all over it, whining about it, proking attacks...The result is threads getting close, and people getting frustrated and leaving the forum.

BT could make it work. All thjey would have to do is ban the Rich's of the forum when they take things too far. For whatever reason, they don't do that.

The result is a forum that has NO diversity...and NO balance AT ALL. So, everything is the same crap, over and over and over again.

THIS forum has received a 'bad rap' for the exact same reasons. Andrew let the Dean's of the forum do EXACTLY the same type of things the Rich's of BT did...except they got personal in their attacks and insults. Not only were those attacks and insults directed at people here, but at people at BT...and BT in general.

For whatever reason, ANDREW did very little to stop it. He should have banned Dean and others, STUCK TO HIS PUNISHMENT, and not let it get out of control. He didn't...and that type of attitude and posts are still and undertow in this forum to this very day.

So, OF COURSE MR is going to get a 'bad rap' when so much crap was allowed...it's no different then BT who allowed crap of their own. As I said before, BT has crap, MR has crap. One is brown and the other is black...but it still stinks.

Monker...

If you really feel as though this place is "crap", it begs the question...Why the hell do you even bother posting here? I don't know whether or not you post over at BT or not, but I certainly did, in another life. I agree with much of your sentiment on BT, 100%, and that it why I simply stopped posting there. I didn't like what I saw going on, so I got the f*%k out!!!! Why would you ever waste your time participating on a board (i.e. MR) if you really hate the place so much? Do you seriously like to argue that much that it makes you hang out in a place you have so much venom for? It just doesn't make any sense to me, dude!

John from Boston

[Moon Beam]

For whatever reason, ANDREW did very little to stop it. He should have banned Dean and others, STUCK TO HIS PUNISHMENT, and not let it get out of control. He didn't...and that type of attitude and posts are still and undertow in this forum to this very day.

You know what Monker?, it's fallen on deaf ears.
If you don't fancy how the forums are run make a run for it.
Move on pul-ease!

I see what your saying but ya gotta learn
to swallow it and move up stream.

[Monker]

BT sucks because they do not allow any diversity of OPINION, regardless of how it is expressed. Even if the moderators let it go, the quasi-moderators (IE peons who think they can act like moderators) jump all over it, whining about it, proking attacks...The result is threads getting close, and people getting frustrated and leaving the forum.

BT could make it work. All thjey would have to do is ban the Rich's of the forum when they take things too far. For whatever reason, they don't do that.

The result is a forum that has NO diversity...and NO balance AT ALL. So, everything is the same crap, over and over and over again.

THIS forum has received a 'bad rap' for the exact same reasons. Andrew let the Dean's of the forum do EXACTLY the same type of things the Rich's of BT did...except they got personal in their attacks and insults. Not only were those attacks and insults directed at people here, but at people at BT...and BT in general.

For whatever reason, ANDREW did very little to stop it. He should have banned Dean and others, STUCK TO HIS PUNISHMENT, and not let it get out of control. He didn't...and that type of attitude and posts are still and undertow in this forum to this very day.

So, OF COURSE MR is going to get a 'bad rap' when so much crap was allowed...it's no different then BT who allowed crap of their own. As I said before, BT has crap, MR has crap. One is brown and the other is black...but it still stinks.

Monker...

If you really feel as though this place is "crap", it begs the question...Why the hell do you even bother posting here? I don't know whether or not you post over at BT or not, but I certainly did, in another life. I agree with much of your sentiment on BT, 100%, and that it why I simply stopped posting there. I didn't like what I saw going on, so I got the f*%k out!!!! Why would you ever waste your time participating on a board (i.e. MR) if you really hate the place so much? Do you seriously like to argue that much that it makes you hang out in a place you have so much venom for? It just doesn't make any sense to me, dude!

John from Boston

All I am saying is this is why MR has the reputation that it does. Did I say I hated it here? No. I am saying Andrew allowed a lot of crap to be posted. So, OF COURSE people are going to look at that and say, "Hey, look MR.com's Journey forum is full of crap!" It's really not that hard to understand!

[Moon Beam]

And I'm quite certain Monker that Andrew is
reminded of that daily by none other than you.
You have more to offer, I've seen it.
Put it forth for the time being please.