New Frontiers

[Wheels Of Fyre]

There was some good dialogue in the "Shove The Apology" thread. I thought it was worth carrying over into its own considering that thread was closed.

JOURNEY has explored many areas of music including Jazz Fusion/Progressive Rock; Classical; R&B; Blues; etc. They're perhaps best known for their Melodic Rock work and their involvement in bringing a unique sound to that style.

Now that they've been there/done that isn't it time to explore new frontiers?

I'm a big believer in what SP said in the Houston DVD interviews: "We took that music [everything prior to Escape] as far as we could. You have to make a change otherwise you just dry up and blow away."

All JOURNEY albums stand on their own as unique works. They're all different but still sound like JOURNEY. It's this concept of changing - evolving - that helped make the band so successful in the first place! It's funny because people will say SP's voice "made" JOURNEY when arguably it may have been his drive to explore new frontiers.

Let's look at the last 10 years. TBF was a change. It was something of a buffet that echoed all their previous efforts. Message Of Love has been noted by many to be the sister to Separate Ways. Don't Be Down On Me Baby has that slow R&B rhythm in the vein of Lights, Stay Awhile, and Natural Thing. Etc., etc. Perhaps the most unique tune is Colors Of The Spirit in which festival/folk grooves were explored. Personally, I LOVE that one. Moving on to Arrival. It was a change. It explored sappy, adult contemporary. Red 13 was a change. It was heavier than anything previously. Generations was a change. It was a stripped down, nuts & bolts production with songs that clearly said, "JOURNEY" and others that didn't.

Despite these efforts I don't think these changes were enough. I think when something new is released that it needs to refresh JOURNEY and its current fan base as wells as target a new audience. I don't think the last 10 years has done this.

Looking back at ROR. This is without question considered the least JOURNEYesque effort YET it had several high charting releases and peaked in the Top 10! WHY? Because it was DIFFERENT. It wasn't just another Infinity or Escape. It was DIFFERENT than anything they'd done previously. The same can be said regarding every other album. JOURNEY has endeavored to be different. Why stop now? Why not strike out into new frontiers?

It's not selling out. It's evolving in order to survive. It's what JOURNEY has always done. It's what the name "JOURNEY" implies. It's what makes them unique in the music world.

My bottom line is that I just don't think TBF, Arrival, Red 13, or Generations were different ENOUGH. The JOURNEY sound didn't bring anything oustanding to those works that hadn't been done before.

If they don't strike out into something truly new and different then they run the risk of drying up and blowing away.

[Matthew]

Two key things need to happen on this next album, I reckon.

Jonathan Cain needs to show off what he can do. Compare his hotel lobby solo on the 2006 tour with his awesomely grandiose and complex solo on the ROR tour and it's obvious that the guy needs to stretch himself again.

And JSS needs to fire this band up with massive doses of testosterone...and if that risks scaring off those creepy fans on BT who don't like rock music that much then so be it.

Journey shouldn't be afraid to indulge themselves as musicians. Cain and Schon could easily play for groups such as Rush and Yes - yet they hold themselves back in Journey.

As long as the mood of the album is uplifting and Neal does his thing it'll still be Journeyesque...but I'd like to see a new album which combines the sophistication and accessibility of Tevor Rabin-era Yes - (who went against all the melodic rock cliches and were able to be progressive without being beardy or hippieish) and the heaviness of the recent work by Rush. The fact is...these bands don't pander to the casual fan and put their musicianship first - and this is why they don't seem like hacks - which Journey do now, unfortunately.

Also - there is already a big overlap in the Journey, Rush and Yes fanbases.

Sure, Journey could try to second-guess the market and do a ballad with a middle of the road country singer or repeat the same old formula with diminishing returns. But I'd rather that Schon and Cain finally allow themselves some freedom from the restrictions of Journey - and stop trying to recreate the past - and that they allow JSS to be totally unrestrained as well. I'd hate to see the guy tone himself down to appease the Augeri fan base who expect a non-threatening male behind the Journey microphone.

It's beyond all doubt now that Perry is irreplaceable - so I agree with Fyre - it's time to move on from the style and approach Perry brought to the band. Yes, they'll still have to play some of the obvious hits in concert - but in their recording career it's definitely time to takes some risks.

Will they branch out? I doubt it. I have so little faith in Neal's ability to lead this band and my guess is that they'll play it safe and we'll get some watered down version of the classic albums from twenty-five years ago.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

The fact is...these bands [Rush and Yes] don't pander to the casual fan and put their musicianship first - and this is why they don't seem like hacks - which Journey do now, unfortunately.

One of the things said about Knowing That You Love Me from Generations is that it's this generation's Open Arms. That's about as hack as you can get.

Sure, Journey could try to second-guess the market and do a ballad with a middle of the road country singer or repeat the same old formula with diminishing returns. But I'd rather that Schon and Cain finally allow themselves some freedom from the restrictions of Journey - and stop trying to recreate the past - and that they allow JSS to be totally unrestrained as well. I'd hate to see the guy tone himself down to appease the Augeri fan base who expect a non-threatening male behind the Journey microphone.

Wow. That was a grand slam homer.

It's beyond all doubt now that Perry is irreplaceable - so I agree with Fyre - it's time to move on from the style and approach Perry brought to the band. Yes, they'll still have to play some of the obvious hits in concert - but in their recording career it's definitely time to takes some risks.

Will they branch out? I doubt it. I have so little faith in Neal's ability to lead this band and my guess is that they'll play it safe and we'll get some watered down version of the classic albums from twenty-five years ago.

I don't think things can be watered down much further!

Have you ever listened to E5C4P3? I mean REALLY LISTENED? The cool thing about it is it's acoustics. It sounds like it was recorded in a barn somewhere out in the country one clear moonlight night after a square dance. Even the chord structure on some of the songs is in the vein of the country jangle and honk. It's about as close to a country album as JOURNEY could get without sounding like Garth Brooks. JOURNEY brought their sound to Jon Cain's songs and made them soar. Listen to Cain's Back To The Innocence and you can clearly hear how it could be another E5C4P3 if Neal, SP, SS, and RV played on it.

I guess this is what I'd like to see JOURNEY do again. Bring their sound to something that they haven't tackled before.

[NealIsGod]

Have you ever listened to E5C4P3? I mean REALLY LISTENED? The cool thing about it is it's acoustics. It sounds like it was recorded in a barn somewhere out in the country one clear moonlight night after a square dance. Even the chord structure on some of the songs is in the vein of the country jangle and honk. It's about as close to a country album as JOURNEY could get without sounding like Garth Brooks. JOURNEY brought their sound to Jon Cain's songs and made them soar. Listen to Cain's Back To The Innocence and you can clearly hear how it could be another E5C4P3 if Neal, SP, SS, and RV played on it.

I have never heard anyone say E5C4P3 sounds like it has country influence. I just don't hear it.

[conversationpc]

Journey shouldn't be afraid to indulge themselves as musicians. Cain and Schon could easily play for groups such as Rush and Yes - yet they hold themselves back in Journey.

With Schon, I agree. He could play with those guys as well as anyone. I disagree on Cain, though. He's certainly a better player than Geddy Lee but Rick Wakeman could play circles around him. That's no slam on Cain, because he's a good player, but Wakeman was/is a world-class keyboard player, arguably even in comparison to classical pianists.

[AR]

Personally, I've always thought Escape had more of a Kentucky Bluegrass influence than country myself. Mother, Father reminds me of the Early English settlers and how keeping a family together in the new colonies was a monumental task.

A little history and I'm sure you will agree:
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As the early Jamestown settlers began to spread out into the Carolinas, Tennessee, Kentucky and the Virginias, they composed new songs about day-to-day life experiences in the new land. Since most of these people lived in rural areas, the songs reflected life on the farm or in the hills and this type of music was called "mountain music" or "country music."

Good singing became a more important part of country music. Singing stars like Jimmie Rodgers, family bands like the Carter family from Virginia and duet teams like the Monroe Brothers from Kentucky contributed greatly to the advancement of traditional country music.

"Bill Monroe and the Blue Grass Boys" first appeared on the Grand Ole Opry in 1939 and soon became one of the most popular touring bands out of Nashville's WSM studios. Bill's new band was different from other traditional country music bands of the time because of its hard driving and powerful sound, utilizing traditional acoustic instruments and featuring highly distinctive vocal harmonies. This music incorporated songs and rhythms from string band, gospel (black and white), work songs and "shouts" of black laborers, country and blues music repertoires. Vocal selections included duet, trio and quartet harmony singing in addition to Bill's powerful "high lonesome" solo lead singing. After experimenting with various instrumental combinations, Bill settled on mandolin, banjo, fiddle, guitar and bass as the format for his band. The guitar originally came from Spain. The mandolin, as well as the fiddle and acoustic bass (both from the violin family), originally came from Italy.

While many fans of bluegrass music date the genre back to 1939, when Monroe formed his first Blue Grass Boys band, most believe that the classic bluegrass sound jelled in 1945, shortly after Earl Scruggs, a 21 year old banjo player from North Carolina, joined the band. Scruggs played an innovative three-finger picking style on the banjo that energized enthusiastic audiences, and has since come to be called simply, "Scruggs style" banjo. Equally influential in the classic 1945 line-up of the Blue Grass Boys were Lester Flatt, from Sparta, Tenn. on guitar and lead vocals against Monroe's tenor; Chubby Wise, from Florida, on fiddle; and Howard Watts, also known by his comedian name, "Cedric Rainwater," on acoustic bass.
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I think Escape is a direct rip off of Bill Monroe and the Bluegrass Boys record,
"Escape from the Hills or Uncle Joe's Going to rape you. "

[conversationpc]

Have you ever listened to E5C4P3? I mean REALLY LISTENED? The cool thing about it is it's acoustics. It sounds like it was recorded in a barn somewhere out in the country one clear moonlight night after a square dance. Even the chord structure on some of the songs is in the vein of the country jangle and honk. It's about as close to a country album as JOURNEY could get without sounding like Garth Brooks. JOURNEY brought their sound to Jon Cain's songs and made them soar. Listen to Cain's Back To The Innocence and you can clearly hear how it could be another E5C4P3 if Neal, SP, SS, and RV played on it.

I have never heard anyone say E5C4P3 sounds like it has country influence. I just don't hear it.

Agreed. Some of the chord progressions may be similar to some country music but that in no way gives it the country sound. It just isn't there. Now, I have heard discussed before the fact that Ross used to tune his bass in such a way that made it similar to bassists playing country music. I believe it's called "Nashville tuning". That doesn't make it sound anything like country music, either, though.

[AR]

Agreed. Some of the chord progressions may be similar to some country music

C, F, G7

Repeat over and over and over again.

That's country music, basically.

[NoMoreTails]

And JSS needs to fire this band up with massive doses of testosterone....

This is a great point. However, I felt that Perry was more "feminine" for lack of a better word than Augeri ever was. JSS is like an SP who reached puberty, vocally.

...creepy fans on BT who don't like rock music that much then so be it.....

Also a bit of a surprise coming from a big fan of ROR. I agree with this also.

[Matthew]

I felt that Perry was more "feminine" for lack of a better word than Augeri ever was. JSS is like an SP who reached puberty, vocally.

You must be joking, NMT. I'll admit that the high-pitched singing and the blousy fashion choices of Perry's early days in the band might seem a little girlish - but as his career went on he became much more masculine - the obsessive drive to succeed, the lower voice, the egomania and the passion and so on. Augeri on the other hand was as passive and docile as a 1950s housewife.

Also a bit of a surprise coming from a big fan of ROR. I agree with this also.

Well, ROR itself was a bit of a surprise too - in fact it was probably the last time Journey did surprise us.

[NoMoreTails]

I felt that Perry was more "feminine" for lack of a better word than Augeri ever was. JSS is like an SP who reached puberty, vocally.

You must be joking, NMT. I'll admit that the high-pitched singing and the blousy fashion choices of Perry's early days in the band might seem a little girlish - but as his career went on he became much more masculine - the obsessive drive to succeed, the lower voice, the egomania and the passion and so on. Augeri on the other hand was as passive and docile as a 1950s housewife.

I even found the Escape Perry girlish physically. It's always surprised that the ladies here were attracted to that "waif" (is that the term they use for skinny models?) look. I'm talking physique wise at that point rather than fashion and voice. Of course there wasn't a gym on every corner in those days. As far as attitude, he was more aggressive than SA on stage and in business no doubt. SA might have less docile if he'd snorted the same substance Perry did before that Houston Escape show. I would think you'd be joking to use the word masculine in any degree to describe Perry.

[somethingtohide]

I think in general the band has needed more testosterone in their music...both Arrival and Generations come across "fem" in their lyrics and sentiments to me.

If Journey is going to move away from Generations and Arrival I hope it will be towards something more hard hitting.


For what it's worth I think Perry is much more masculine in his attitude/presence than Augeri...

[Matthew]

I felt that Perry was more "feminine" for lack of a better word than Augeri ever was. JSS is like an SP who reached puberty, vocally.

You must be joking, NMT. I'll admit that the high-pitched singing and the blousy fashion choices of Perry's early days in the band might seem a little girlish - but as his career went on he became much more masculine - the obsessive drive to succeed, the lower voice, the egomania and the passion and so on. Augeri on the other hand was as passive and docile as a 1950s housewife.

I even found the Escape Perry girlish physically. It's always surprised that the ladies here were attracted to that "waif" (is that the term they use for skinny models?) look. I'm talking physique wise at that point rather than fashion and voice. Of course there wasn't a gym on every corner in those days. As far as attitude, he was more aggressive than SA on stage and in business no doubt. SA might have less docile if he'd snorted the same substance Perry did before that Houston Escape show. I would think you'd be joking to use the word masculine in any degree to describe Perry.

Maybe you're right...and in fact I'm just waiting for AR to post that photo of Perry with the pussy on his lap...

-

[AR]

I felt that Perry was more "feminine" for lack of a better word than Augeri ever was. JSS is like an SP who reached puberty, vocally.

You must be joking, NMT. I'll admit that the high-pitched singing and the blousy fashion choices of Perry's early days in the band might seem a little girlish - but as his career went on he became much more masculine - the obsessive drive to succeed, the lower voice, the egomania and the passion and so on. Augeri on the other hand was as passive and docile as a 1950s housewife.

I even found the Escape Perry girlish physically. It's always surprised that the ladies here were attracted to that "waif" (is that the term they use for skinny models?) look. I'm talking physique wise at that point rather than fashion and voice. Of course there wasn't a gym on every corner in those days. As far as attitude, he was more aggressive than SA on stage and in business no doubt. SA might have less docile if he'd snorted the same substance Perry did before that Houston Escape show. I would think you'd be joking to use the word masculine in any degree to describe Perry.

Maybe you're right...and in fact I'm just waiting for AR to post that photo of Perry with the pussy on his lap...

-

[fred_journeyman]

If they don't strike out into something truly new and different then they run the risk of drying up and blowing away.

It's not just that though...even if they DO strike out with something new, they still need to be willing to back their own music by playing it in concert. If both of those things happen, then I'll line up to buy tickets for a show.

On the SS CD, there were shades of Journey, in my opinion. IF they can capitalize and expand on that for a new CD, then they're halfway there.

[somethingtohide]

If they don't strike out into something truly new and different then they run the risk of drying up and blowing away.

It's not just that though...even if they DO strike out with something new, they still need to be willing to back their own music by playing it in concert. If both of those things happen, then I'll line up to buy tickets for a show.

On the SS CD, there were shades of Journey, in my opinion. IF they can capitalize and expand on that for a new CD, then they're halfway there.

Sounds good to me fred.

[Matthew]

I felt that Perry was more "feminine" for lack of a better word than Augeri ever was. JSS is like an SP who reached puberty, vocally.

You must be joking, NMT. I'll admit that the high-pitched singing and the blousy fashion choices of Perry's early days in the band might seem a little girlish - but as his career went on he became much more masculine - the obsessive drive to succeed, the lower voice, the egomania and the passion and so on. Augeri on the other hand was as passive and docile as a 1950s housewife.

I even found the Escape Perry girlish physically. It's always surprised that the ladies here were attracted to that "waif" (is that the term they use for skinny models?) look. I'm talking physique wise at that point rather than fashion and voice. Of course there wasn't a gym on every corner in those days. As far as attitude, he was more aggressive than SA on stage and in business no doubt. SA might have less docile if he'd snorted the same substance Perry did before that Houston Escape show. I would think you'd be joking to use the word masculine in any degree to describe Perry.

Maybe you're right...and in fact I'm just waiting for AR to post that photo of Perry with the pussy on his lap...

-

Oh dear...he looks like such an old queen in that picture, doesn't he?

[Red13JoePa]

For me, that pic of Perry IS TheNobleCause.

It just is.


For those of you who were not lucky enough to be around here when it was his avatar, I'll tell you that he had it as his avatar.

Read some of his Gr Hits and then picture that beside it as his avatar. The BigMac is good, too but that was brilliance.

[Deb]

I felt that Perry was more "feminine" for lack of a better word than Augeri ever was. JSS is like an SP who reached puberty, vocally.

You must be joking, NMT. I'll admit that the high-pitched singing and the blousy fashion choices of Perry's early days in the band might seem a little girlish - but as his career went on he became much more masculine - the obsessive drive to succeed, the lower voice, the egomania and the passion and so on. Augeri on the other hand was as passive and docile as a 1950s housewife.

I even found the Escape Perry girlish physically. It's always surprised that the ladies here were attracted to that "waif" (is that the term they use for skinny models?) look. I'm talking physique wise at that point rather than fashion and voice. Of course there wasn't a gym on every corner in those days. As far as attitude, he was more aggressive than SA on stage and in business no doubt. SA might have less docile if he'd snorted the same substance Perry did before that Houston Escape show. I would think you'd be joking to use the word masculine in any degree to describe Perry.

Sorry I disagree NMT, and this is just a woman's opinion......but nothing is more masculine and attractive on a man than passion and determination........any Joe can be born pretty or pump weights. Besides Perry is attractive (albeit, not in a Brad Pitt chiselled kind of way), but more unique.

[*Laura]

For me, that pic of Perry IS TheNobleCause.

It just is.


For those of you who were not lucky enough to be around here when it was his avatar, I'll tell you that he had it as his avatar.

Read some of his Gr Hits and then picture that beside it as his avatar. The BigMac is good, too but that was brilliance.

[Red13JoePa]

If Journey is going to move away from Generations and Arrival I hope it will be towards something more hard hitting.

See, now I have to opine that it is possible you may not have listened to either record, at least not entirely.
Certainly not Generations because if songs like Gone Crazy, In Self Defense, Out Of Harms Way, Better Together and parts Believe and Faith In the Heartland "hit" any "harder" we'd almost be talking about thrash metal.


many a loon claimed to find it offputting and complained about loudness, too much guitar, too much heavy rock for a Journey album.

I dare say World Gone Wild, All The Things and Nothing Comes Close aren't exactly poppy lullabies either.

[duke22]

If they don't strike out into something truly new and different then they run the risk of drying up and blowing away.

It's not just that though...even if they DO strike out with something new, they still need to be willing to back their own music by playing it in concert. If both of those things happen, then I'll line up to buy tickets for a show.

On the SS CD, there were shades of Journey, in my opinion. IF they can capitalize and expand on that for a new CD, then they're halfway there.

Agreed on the SS edge on new Journey material as well as the part about playing them in concert.

In my opinion alot of people still go to Journey shows because they think SP is the singer and want to hear the "Dirty Dozen" I was at many a show the past 8 years where a majority of the crowd sat down or went to the bathroom when new material was played.

[fred_journeyman]

In my opinion alot of people still go to Journey shows because they think SP is the singer and want to hear the "Dirty Dozen" I was at many a show the past 8 years where a majority of the crowd sat down or went to the bathroom when new material was played.

Yep, it's true and even Neal (or Jon) commented on that way back when. I understand that people will always want to hear some of those older tunes, but Journey needs to up the ante and be willing to include new material that THEY create. So what if people go to the bathroom? They get beer too and then they return to their seats. It's not as if they leave the place altogether in a huff, or boycott Journey concerts because of new material. I really think the guys were way too quick to pull back from playing the new music when they did and it unfortunately seemed to set a precedent.

If the guys are going to produce new music, they HAVE to be willing to go out on a limb and give it a fair chance to fail or succeed in a live setting. If they do not, they are not only sending the message that their new music isn't important, but they are continuing to tell the fans that "we are an oldies/nostaglia band" and nothing more.

[somethingtohide]

If Journey is going to move away from Generations and Arrival I hope it will be towards something more hard hitting.

See, now I have to opine that it is possible you may not have listened to either record, at least not entirely.
Certainly not Generations because if songs like Gone Crazy, In Self Defense, Out Of Harms Way, Better Together and parts Believe and Faith In the Heartland "hit" any "harder" we'd almost be talking about thrash metal.


many a loon claimed to find it offputting and complained about loudness, too much guitar, too much heavy rock for a Journey album.

I dare say World Gone Wild, All The Things and Nothing Comes Close aren't exactly poppy lullabies either.

Well I guess what I really mean is that I would like them to throw in a song or two that is more about sex than tender emotions...Maybe something along the lines, in attitude, of Stone In Love, Dixie Highway, Where Were You, etc. Although a lovely song, All The Things, is an example, in my opinion, of what there is too much of on Arrival.

I love Good Morning Girl and Stay Awhile. But I also need some Homemade Love too.

[duke22]

Well lets just hope that JSS changes all that. I want to believe that the guys will begin a new identity while still remaining true to the core of what Journey music is. I am sure between Jeff, Neal and Jon there will be some fantastic new stuff written and we'll all have something to look forward to in 2008 and put an end to all this bickering.

[Red13JoePa]

Well lets just hope that JSS changes all that. I want to believe that the guys will begin a new identity while still remaining true to the core of what Journey music is.

I don't even have the slightlest concern about that. JSS' vocal stylings are enough of a departure from the Perry/Augeri sound that the new identity thing will almost happen by default.

The cool part is that when feels like it he can inject songs studio or live with the Perry feel.

[ohsherrie]

I felt that Perry was more "feminine" for lack of a better word than Augeri ever was. JSS is like an SP who reached puberty, vocally.

You must be joking, NMT. I'll admit that the high-pitched singing and the blousy fashion choices of Perry's early days in the band might seem a little girlish - but as his career went on he became much more masculine - the obsessive drive to succeed, the lower voice, the egomania and the passion and so on. Augeri on the other hand was as passive and docile as a 1950s housewife.

I even found the Escape Perry girlish physically. It's always surprised that the ladies here were attracted to that "waif" (is that the term they use for skinny models?) look. I'm talking physique wise at that point rather than fashion and voice. Of course there wasn't a gym on every corner in those days. As far as attitude, he was more aggressive than SA on stage and in business no doubt. SA might have less docile if he'd snorted the same substance Perry did before that Houston Escape show. I would think you'd be joking to use the word masculine in any degree to describe Perry.

Sorry I disagree NMT, and this is just a woman's opinion......but nothing is more masculine and attractive on a man than passion and determination........any Joe can be born pretty or pump weights. Besides Perry is attractive (albeit, not in a Brad Pitt chiselled kind of way), but more unique.

Guess we're supposed to let a man tell us what's attractive to us.

Rather than itemize every attribute Perry has that I find attractive I'll just say he is sexy as hell. Augeri just isn't attractive or sexy in any way. IMO

[duke22]

I don't even have the slightlest concern about that. JSS' vocal stylings are enough of a departure from the Perry/Augeri sound that the new identity thing will almost happen by default.

The cool part is that when feels like it he can inject songs studio or live with the Perry feel.

No concerns on my part about this either. The "new" Journey is gonna rock!

[SF-Dano]

Well lets just hope that JSS changes all that. I want to believe that the guys will begin a new identity while still remaining true to the core of what Journey music is. I am sure between Jeff, Neal and Jon there will be some fantastic new stuff written and we'll all have something to look forward to in 2008 and put an end to all this bickering.

Couldn't agree more. Especially with the part of your statement I underlined. As far as them going in the direction of YES or RUSH, that is not something I personally would want from Journey. If I want to listen to something that sounds like Rush I will listen to Rush, ditto that for Yes. I agree that Journey needs to change a bit, but it still has to sound like Journey. I am not saying that I wouldn't like the music if it sounded like Soul Sirkus for example. I really liked the SS cd, but if they are going to sound like SS just call the band Soul Sirkus. And as far as a surprise goes, I really would not want to live thru another surprise like ROR. JMHO.

[Deb]

Well lets just hope that JSS changes all that. I want to believe that the guys will begin a new identity while still remaining true to the core of what Journey music is.

I don't even have the slightlest concern about that. JSS' vocal stylings are enough of a departure from the Perry/Augeri sound that the new identity thing will almost happen by default.

The cool part is that when feels like it he can inject songs studio or live with the Perry feel.

Very true JoePa...on both counts.