Neal's Guitar Tone

[JeremyP]

This is a continuing a question I raised in another thread.

Has anyone else noticed Neal's guitar tone becoming more digital sounding over the last few releases? I first noticed it on Red 13 and I can hear the "digitalness" on Generations as well as "Believe In Me", the track he recorded with JSS. To me it sounds like he's using a digital amp modeller of some sort.

In comparsion with the tone he gets on TBF and Arrival, his newest stuff sounds kinda "cardboardish" that's the best way I can describe it.

Has anyone else noticed this?


Disclaimer: I am in no way criticizing Neal's playing ability. I think he's amazing and anyway he wants his tone, that's the way he needs it. lol

[SF-Dano]

I have noticed that too. I am not much of a player (just fool around a little), so I would not know any of the technical stuff. But, I have also noticed that Neal doesn't mix up the slow melodic solo with the shred as much as he used to. These days it seems Neal is going more for the shred in the whole solo as opposed to the starting slow and building to a shredding climax (ie. STR or MF). As you said, I am not ragging on Neal's playing, the man is a guitar genius and is my all time favorite. But, sometimes I just miss his old sound from the Departure/Escape days. Some would call that style dated, I would call it timeless.

[Rockindeano]

I can tell you that is untrue. Some playing around in digital, but dude is not a big fan of digital.

[JeremyP]

Some would call that style dated, I would call it timeless.

I agree.

I can tell you that is untrue. Some playing around in digital, but dude is not a big fan of digital.

Thanks for the info Deano. Very interesting.

I do recall Kevin Shirley posting a pic of the multitrack mix layout for "Higher Place", and that included tracks that were labeled "POD guitar left" and "POD guitar right" along with mic'd guitar tracks. I assumed he used it to lend a bit of texture to the song. (I have a PODxt which I love)

Also, in 2002 he posted on BT that he'd been working with a GNX pedal. I don't recall what model.

Anyway, I figured that maybe he was using that on the more recent stuff.

[JrnyScarab]

I don't know about modeling being the cause. I think too much pro-tools enhancement seems to make a lot of CD's sound harsh and un-natural. Also, the mastering of CD's now seems to be geared toward making the CD as loud sounding as possible. The levels are pushed to the limit and make the CD's sound harsh and lifeless with the dynamics crushed. I swear that a lot of new releases make me think me hearing is damaged because the high end sounds shrill and scratchy. But if I put on some older CD's that were recorded and mastered properly they sound much more lifelike and non straining to the ears.

Case in point: The MP3 files for sale of Talisman's new #7 CD. On average equipment the high end is just sizzling and harsh. Listen to Talisman's Humanimal MP3 samples. They sound much smoother and full. The new CD does rock though! Love it.

Want to hear a great remastering job. Just listen to the Tom Scholz remaster of the first Boston album. Just the smoothest high end possible. Guitar tone that just gives you the shivers.

[Rockindeano]

Some would call that style dated, I would call it timeless.

I agree.

I can tell you that is untrue. Some playing around in digital, but dude is not a big fan of digital.

Thanks for the info Deano. Very interesting.

I do recall Kevin Shirley posting a pic of the multitrack mix layout for "Higher Place", and that included tracks that were labeled "POD guitar left" and "POD guitar right" along with mic'd guitar tracks. I assumed he used it to lend a bit of texture to the song. (I have a PODxt which I love)

Also, in 2002 he posted on BT that he'd been working with a GNX pedal. I don't recall what model.

Anyway, I figured that maybe he was using that on the more recent stuff.

Jeremey, I should say this especially about HP...In studio, it sounds so much better because of the two guitars....Notice in concert, they have Friga use the keyboard to simulate the "other" guitar? Yes, in that case and some others, he does dabble in digital.


Nice post/topic.

However, I am not letting you off the hook for saying you couldn't differentiate the talent between classic Journey with Espee, and Lip era with Augeri. Come correct, and we can be buddies.

[JeremyP]

I don't know about modeling being the cause. I think too much pro-tools enhancement seems to make a lot of CD's sound harsh and un-natural. Also, the mastering of CD's now seems to be geared toward making the CD as loud sounding as possible. The levels are pushed to the limit and make the CD's sound harsh and lifeless with the dynamics crushed. I swear that a lot of new releases make me think me hearing is damaged because the high end sounds shrill and scratchy. But if I put on some older CD's that were recorded and mastered properly they sound much more lifelike and non straining to the ears.

Case in point: The MP3 files for sale of Talisman's new #7 CD. On average equipment the high end is just sizzling and harsh. Listen to Talisman's Humanimal MP3 samples. They sound much smoother and full. The new CD does rock though! Love it.

Oh yeah, I'm with you all the way regarding the trend to make everything as loud as possible. It absolutely kills the dynamics of the songs. I especially hate it when they ruin new releases of classic music by trying to compete with the mastering trends of today. Everything sounds so squashed and flat. It's so frustrating to listen to.

[JrnyScarab]

I don't know about modeling being the cause. I think too much pro-tools enhancement seems to make a lot of CD's sound harsh and un-natural. Also, the mastering of CD's now seems to be geared toward making the CD as loud sounding as possible. The levels are pushed to the limit and make the CD's sound harsh and lifeless with the dynamics crushed. I swear that a lot of new releases make me think me hearing is damaged because the high end sounds shrill and scratchy. But if I put on some older CD's that were recorded and mastered properly they sound much more lifelike and non straining to the ears.

Case in point: The MP3 files for sale of Talisman's new #7 CD. On average equipment the high end is just sizzling and harsh. Listen to Talisman's Humanimal MP3 samples. They sound much smoother and full. The new CD does rock though! Love it.

Oh yeah, I'm with you all the way regarding the trend to make everything as loud as possible. It absolutely kills the dynamics of the songs. I especially hate it when they ruin new releases of classic music by trying to compete with the mastering trends of today. Everything sounds so squashed and flat. It's so frustrating to listen to.

It's not only frustrating, it's painful to my ears! Listen to the last RUSH CD Vapor Trails. One of the WORST mastering jobs I've ever heard. My ears are tired by the second song. Too bad, I love the new ideas and direction on that CD but my God, they need to remaster it properly.

[Abitaman]

Everything is going digital now a days, and that is not good. There has actually been a movement in the past year to get away from digital recording and going back to vacuum tubes instead of sing processors and etc... Digital takes the warmth out of a lot of the music. Somewhere using the tow is where it will end up, unless they can make a processor that has the warmth of a tube-ERIC

[JeremyP]

Jeremey, I should say this especially about HP...In studio, it sounds so much better because of the two guitars....Notice in concert, they have Friga use the keyboard to simulate the "other" guitar? Yes, in that case and some others, he does dabble in digital.

Yeah I noticed that. I think he sampled Neal's guitar track from the studio and plays it back live.

Nice post/topic.

Thanks! I love talking guitar.

However, I am not letting you off the hook for saying you couldn't differentiate the talent between classic Journey with Espee, and Lip era with Augeri. Come correct, and we can be buddies.

Can't we be buddies with differing opinions?

[Carlitto H@kk]

Check out the Castles Burning forum at BT...

Some great knowledgable folks over there with alot of great
info; there are 2-3 threads there right now regarding Neal's tone.
Not to mention that Alan, owner of Banannas Music shop
and Neal's main gear supplier posts there and always has
some cool info to share...
For example, someone asked "what kind of Strats is
Neal using on this tour?"

Alan's reply:

"The current Strat's Neal is using are the Eric Johnson strats.
Custom made pickups for Fender.
Just a fun note: Neal went thru almost 13 different EJ strats to pick his 4 fav.
One white, one red, two black, two Sunburst
and yes it is ALWAYS fun to have Neal here trying out gear."

[Rockindeano]

Can't we be buddies with differing opinions?

Sorry. I just can't be buddies if you say the Augeri lineup is as talented as the Perry one. Just ain't true dude. Come on, admit I am right and we can be friends.

[JeremyP]

Check out the Castles Burning forum at BT...

Some great knowledgable folks over there with alot of great
info; there are 2-3 threads there right now regarding Neal's tone.
Not to mention that Alan, owner of Banannas Music shop
and Neal's main gear supplier posts there and always has
some cool info to share...
For example, someone asked "what kind of Strats is
Neal using on this tour?"

Alan's reply:

"The current Strat's Neal is using are the Eric Johnson strats.
Custom made pickups for Fender.
Just a fun note: Neal went thru almost 13 different EJ strats to pick his 4 fav.
One white, one red, two black, two Sunburst
and yes it is ALWAYS fun to have Neal here trying out gear."

Thanks! I'm gonna check it out.

Btw, Eric Johnson is awesome.

[JrnyScarab]

Everything is going digital now a days, and that is not good. There has actually been a movement in the past year to get away from digital recording and going back to vacuum tubes instead of sing processors and etc... Digital takes the warmth out of a lot of the music. Somewhere using the tow is where it will end up, unless they can make a processor that has the warmth of a tube-ERIC

Yeah, it's sad. CD technology progressed to where CD's were sounding pretty good compared to vinyl if played on high end equipment. Now the record companies want to sell us low bit-rate MP3's that sound worse and will one day phase out CD's lowering the standard for quality that they have half destroyed already with the crummy recording process.

[Abitaman]

Everything is going digital now a days, and that is not good. There has actually been a movement in the past year to get away from digital recording and going back to vacuum tubes instead of sing processors and etc... Digital takes the warmth out of a lot of the music. Somewhere using the tow is where it will end up, unless they can make a processor that has the warmth of a tube-ERIC

Yeah, it's sad. CD technology progressed to where CD's were sounding pretty good compared to vinyl if played on high end equipment. Now the record companies want to sell us low bit-rate MP3's that sound worse and will one day phase out CD's lowering the standard for quality that they have half destroyed already with the crummy recording process.

True, MP3 sound sucks.... I use WMA which compress the sound to an MP3 type format, sounds a lot better, BUT you can still tell a difference.-ERIC

[conversationpc]

Everything is going digital now a days, and that is not good. There has actually been a movement in the past year to get away from digital recording and going back to vacuum tubes instead of sing processors and etc... Digital takes the warmth out of a lot of the music. Somewhere using the tow is where it will end up, unless they can make a processor that has the warmth of a tube-ERIC

Yeah, it's sad. CD technology progressed to where CD's were sounding pretty good compared to vinyl if played on high end equipment. Now the record companies want to sell us low bit-rate MP3's that sound worse and will one day phase out CD's lowering the standard for quality that they have half destroyed already with the crummy recording process.

True, MP3 sound sucks.... I use WMA which compress the sound to an MP3 type format, sounds a lot better, BUT you can still tell a difference.-ERIC

The sound of an MP3, for the most part, depends on the quality of the audio source that it was created from. I have some 128 kbps MP3s that sound great and some that are double, triple that or more that don't sound so good.

[JrnyScarab]

Everything is going digital now a days, and that is not good. There has actually been a movement in the past year to get away from digital recording and going back to vacuum tubes instead of sing processors and etc... Digital takes the warmth out of a lot of the music. Somewhere using the tow is where it will end up, unless they can make a processor that has the warmth of a tube-ERIC

Yeah, it's sad. CD technology progressed to where CD's were sounding pretty good compared to vinyl if played on high end equipment. Now the record companies want to sell us low bit-rate MP3's that sound worse and will one day phase out CD's lowering the standard for quality that they have half destroyed already with the crummy recording process.

True, MP3 sound sucks.... I use WMA which compress the sound to an MP3 type format, sounds a lot better, BUT you can still tell a difference.-ERIC

Eric, I'm switching to WMA's ripped at the highest variable bit rate. Very close to actual CD sound on the portable players and computer. Haven't tried on my high end equipment yet. The high end is much improved at the high bit rate along with better dynamic range and better ambience as long as the original recording isn't crap.

[JrnyScarab]

Everything is going digital now a days, and that is not good. There has actually been a movement in the past year to get away from digital recording and going back to vacuum tubes instead of sing processors and etc... Digital takes the warmth out of a lot of the music. Somewhere using the tow is where it will end up, unless they can make a processor that has the warmth of a tube-ERIC

Yeah, it's sad. CD technology progressed to where CD's were sounding pretty good compared to vinyl if played on high end equipment. Now the record companies want to sell us low bit-rate MP3's that sound worse and will one day phase out CD's lowering the standard for quality that they have half destroyed already with the crummy recording process.

True, MP3 sound sucks.... I use WMA which compress the sound to an MP3 type format, sounds a lot better, BUT you can still tell a difference.-ERIC

The sound of an MP3, for the most part, depends on the quality of the audio source that it was created from. I have some 128 kbps MP3s that sound great and some that are double, triple that or more that don't sound so good.

It seems that original recordings that are pretty bright sounding treble-wise suffer the worst when compressed. Just my 2 cents.

[JeremyP]

Here's how I see it.

What? You can't argue who was more talented? Are you fucking retarded? Yeah dude, chocolate pie v banana cream pie speaks chocolate pie in a landslide!

It's not personal opinion. Dude, let me clue you in on something, ok? Chocolate pie sucks dude. Always has, always will. banana cream NEVER sucked.

The back and forth stuff...kinda like a debate on which flavor pie is best.

Sorry. I just can't be buddies if you say the Augeri lineup is as talented as the Perry one. Just ain't true dude. Come on, admit I am right and we can be friends.

C'mon dude, unity!!

[Abitaman]

Everything is going digital now a days, and that is not good. There has actually been a movement in the past year to get away from digital recording and going back to vacuum tubes instead of sing processors and etc... Digital takes the warmth out of a lot of the music. Somewhere using the tow is where it will end up, unless they can make a processor that has the warmth of a tube-ERIC

Yeah, it's sad. CD technology progressed to where CD's were sounding pretty good compared to vinyl if played on high end equipment. Now the record companies want to sell us low bit-rate MP3's that sound worse and will one day phase out CD's lowering the standard for quality that they have half destroyed already with the crummy recording process.

True, MP3 sound sucks.... I use WMA which compress the sound to an MP3 type format, sounds a lot better, BUT you can still tell a difference.-ERIC

Eric, I'm switching to WMA's ripped at the highest variable bit rate. Very close to actual CD sound on the portable players and computer. Haven't tried on my high end equipment yet. The high end is much improved at the high bit rate along with better dynamic range and better ambience as long as the original recording isn't crap.

They sound better than MP3. But you can tell a difference, it is not big like in MP3. Good thing about WMA, is if you make a regular cd, WMA changes back to waveform a lot better than MP3. Most cd and dvd player are getting where they play wma too.

[JrnyScarab]

Everything is going digital now a days, and that is not good. There has actually been a movement in the past year to get away from digital recording and going back to vacuum tubes instead of sing processors and etc... Digital takes the warmth out of a lot of the music. Somewhere using the tow is where it will end up, unless they can make a processor that has the warmth of a tube-ERIC

Yeah, it's sad. CD technology progressed to where CD's were sounding pretty good compared to vinyl if played on high end equipment. Now the record companies want to sell us low bit-rate MP3's that sound worse and will one day phase out CD's lowering the standard for quality that they have half destroyed already with the crummy recording process.

True, MP3 sound sucks.... I use WMA which compress the sound to an MP3 type format, sounds a lot better, BUT you can still tell a difference.-ERIC

Eric, I'm switching to WMA's ripped at the highest variable bit rate. Very close to actual CD sound on the portable players and computer. Haven't tried on my high end equipment yet. The high end is much improved at the high bit rate along with better dynamic range and better ambience as long as the original recording isn't crap.

They sound better than MP3. But you can tell a difference, it is not big like in MP3. Good thing about WMA, is if you make a regular cd, WMA changes back to waveform a lot better than MP3. Most cd and dvd player are getting where they play wma too.

I didn't realize that they convert better to WAV when making CD's. That's a plus right there.

[Abitaman]

MP3 looses from the original to MP3, then if you switch it back. I have a program that will bring back some of the life to MP3s, but it is just better to wma. they loose very very little in going to original to wma, and back again-ERIC

[JrnyScarab]

MP3 looses from the original to MP3, then if you switch it back. I have a program that will bring back some of the life to MP3s, but it is just better to wma. they loose very very little in going to original to wma, and back again-ERIC

Thanks for the advice. Hope you are feeling better!

[Abitaman]

working on it, Thanks-ERIC

[JrnySuxBalls]

Sometimes a Pod can be used as a "thickener", mixed back behind the original guitar tone. And
sometimes Neal uses digital effects alongside the guitar sound. But his last couple of solo albums
not with standing, most of the basic guitar sounds are tube amps.

Digital amp modelers can get you close, but it's not the real deal. I'd rather have a tube amp any day
of the week. Silicone might make 'em big, but they're hard as rocks. I like them real please.

[JrnyScarab]

Sometimes a Pod can be used as a "thickener", mixed back behind the original guitar tone. And
sometimes Neal uses digital effects alongside the guitar sound. But his last couple of solo albums
not with standing, most of the basic guitar sounds are tube amps.

Digital amp modelers can get you close, but it's not the real deal. I'd rather have a tube amp any day
of the week. Silicone might make 'em big, but they're hard as rocks. I like them real please.

Yeah, I always loved tubes as well. I don't care what Tom Scholz says, he used real Marshall's on the first Boston album and the ones he used the Rockman on just don't have the intensity or smoothness to me. Close but no cigar.

[JrnySuxBalls]

Close but no cigar.

Yep you said it. Line 6 and other companies talk about it's easier without tubes (bias once every
year or two no big deal), or that tubes are scarce (tubes are plentiful), and that recording is
more convienient (slap a 57 on a speaker...done!)

Modelling is like slapping tons of A-1 on a crappy steak. Sure you have lots of effects but...yukk. (IMO)

[larryfromnextdoor]

ive played many shows with my line 6 flextone... and with my fender hot rod.. i cant tell the difference when playing bars.. people say i sound better with the fender.. not sure,, we dont go through the PA much with the amps.. dry from the stage.. i really love both of them,, i love me some line 6 .. and fender.. both open up very nice!! neal once endorsed the marshall valvestate series,, he never played them.. he sure played with that little orange boss ds-1 pedal and a very cool vox wah.... hes used that fernades sustainer to death , i would like to play with that little feature...

[Carlitto H@kk]

hes used that fernades sustainer to death , i would like to play with that little feature...

I got a Fernandez DragonFly with the Sustainer...
That is one fun puppy
My only regret is that I didn't get a model with
a trem system. You can do some really insane
shit with the trem AND the sustainer, just listen
to Neal nowadays...

[Chevypv]

This is a continuing a question I raised in another thread.

Has anyone else noticed Neal's guitar tone becoming more digital sounding over the last few releases? I first noticed it on Red 13 and I can hear the "digitalness" on Generations as well as "Believe In Me", the track he recorded with JSS. To me it sounds like he's using a digital amp modeller of some sort.

In comparsion with the tone he gets on TBF and Arrival, his newest stuff sounds kinda "cardboardish" that's the best way I can describe it.

Has anyone else noticed this?


Disclaimer: I am in no way criticizing Neal's playing ability. I think he's amazing and anyway he wants his tone, that's the way he needs it. lol

I think part of what your noticing is the fact that Neal has become kind of an effect whore of the years, I hear alot more chorus and such than in the older stuff, that and he is now using Hiwatt amps, and he seems to be cutting the mids alot more recently...I think alot of the Red 13 and Generations issues was the lack of a proffesional recording, they were recorded in smaller studios with less attention to mixing, Remember Me was the same way...