Frustrating

[MartyMoffatt]

Despite the fact that my views seem to be very much in the minority here (at least among the active posters) I do like this place.

To describe MR as unmoderated is probably an exaggeration (one that I have been guilty of in the past). It is true I would like to see MORE moderation here – not of peoples views but to curb some of the out and out aggression and attacks on other people that sometimes passes for the norm around here – but I understand Andrew’s reluctance to do so.

I have to say that in the past few weeks the general tone of this site has been a lot healthier. Possibly it is a coincidence, but that is also about the length of time JourneyForums has been active and it may be that now having three major Journey messageboards on the net has eased the pressure on both MR and BT and will allow them both to find a natural balance, instead of being diametrically opposed to each other.

JourneyForums has had a lot of very informative genuine debate. Some of those debates I am sure would have been quashed over here in the past, not by moderation, but by the ‘leaders of the pack’ here. What I mean by that is that I’ve seen many a serious discussion here turn south and become a festival of wise cracks, personal attacks and over colourful (and unnecessary) obscenities.

This site has improved considerably from a few months ago, thanks in part to a mellower Deano (which I applaud by the way). Maybe it’s because of the other forum, maybe it’s just natural evolution, maybe it’s just my perception. However, I congratulate Andrew on keeping this forum together and enabling it to continue to make a positive contribution to the Journey experience.

Marty

[Aaron]

Dean, I suspect you're right on that one, but I haven't been following NASCAR much. In drag racing, Line and Anderson are the cheating bastards of the moment. That team has won the last 4 Pro Stock championships in a row.

Its just like racing, when everyone is pissed and thinks you're a cheating asshole, it means you're winning big time.

L8r,

Aaron

Yeah, that's what Jimmie Johnson must feel like, eh, Aron?

[ohsherrie]

Saint John said it first and best. They're jealous.

If they don't like what's said here and think it's unmoderated, no one is forcing them to read it. If they're happy over there, why do they even care what we do here? Some of the people from that site who come here to post may only be doing so to stir up something to go back there and bitch about. I mean, look at it this way, we're putting a little excitement in their boring existence.

As for the interviews, of course that's where a lot of it's coming from.

Some are just simply jealous because the interviews came from this site instead of that one.

Some are pissed because the content was known to a few here before it was published instead of being known to the "elite" group that some there consider themselves to be.

Some think you somehow led the guys to say things that weren't complimentary to their Stevie Awesome so you could make Jeff look better. (As if Jeff needs any help looking better. )

Some think you were too easy on them by not nailing them to the wall about the tapes. You were there as an interviewer to give the fans news from the band, not to give us a "60 Minutes" style expose that might possibly destroy them.

Some should consider that if you had been more heavy hitting in it and done a real Mike Wallace number on them, the ones that didn't like the things that were said would have a lot more to cry about.


This board has it's individual personality, as do the Journey Forums and BT. I like this board for it's nature and the Journey Forums for theirs. The thing that makes BT such an irritation is that it's the Official Website and should be open to all the various fan viewpoints, but IMO it's nothing but a restricted community for Stratford fans.

[perryfaithful]

Saint John said it first and best. They're jealous.

If they don't like what's said here and think it's unmoderated, no one is forcing them to read it. If they're happy over there, why do they even care what we do here? Some of the people from that site who come here to post may only be doing so to stir up something to go back there and bitch about. I mean, look at it this way, we're putting a little excitement in their boring existence.

As for the interviews, of course that's where a lot of it's coming from.

Some are just simply jealous because the interviews came from this site instead of that one.

Some are pissed because the content was known to a few here before it was published instead of being known to the "elite" group that some there consider themselves to be.

Some think you somehow led the guys to say things that weren't complimentary to their Stevie Awesome so you could make Jeff look better. (As if Jeff needs any help looking better. )

Some think you were too easy on them by not nailing them to the wall about the tapes. You were there as an interviewer to give the fans news from the band, not to give us a "60 Minutes" style expose that might possibly destroy them.

Some should consider that if you had been more heavy hitting in it and done a real Mike Wallace number on them, the ones that didn't like the things that were said would have a lot more to cry about.


This board has it's individual personality, as do the Journey Forums and BT. I like this board for it's nature and the Journey Forums for theirs. The thing that makes BT such an irritation is that it's the Official Website and should be open to all the various fan viewpoints, but IMO it's nothing but a restricted community for Stratford fans.

Right on the money girl!

[*Laura]

I find it incredibly frustrating and highly annoying to see this forum still being mentioned on other sites as an "unmoderrated" forum.

Er, excuse me, who the *%$# and I then?

This forum has always been moderrated and will always be moderrated - by me - who is online each and EVERY day and who is easily contactable via PM or whatever other method and who takes action when necessary, but ONLY when absolutely necessary.

You lot are all adults, all capable of being held accountable for your own actions and it bothers me that some feel the need to complain about other forums while posting on one that better suits their own individual needs.

I don't see anything here that has gotten out of hand or that has needed a heavy hand to control in several weeks - not since the announcement at least.

In fact, I would go as far to say that this HERE is the more fan friendly, open to opinion forum.

Am I wrong?

Just my opinion here as a journalist myself...
I have encountered situations like this and been put in the delicate situation of having to be a respectful journalist rather that a nosy tabloid-like one.
This message board is just an extension of your site,Andrew,and I don't believe that it has much to do with your activity or achievements as a journalist.
You are not a tabloid type of journalist,therefore your interviews respect the artists wishes.
I mean that musicians are complicated individuals dealing with an extremely harsh industry so I do not blame Journey not wanting to talk about certain delicate aspects of their career.
I guess what you did ,Andrew, was to simply respect their wishes.
Whether Journey made the right choice by not speaking about their problems,is up to them.
IMO,they should have adressed some issues out of respect for their fanbase,but if they didn't do that it's not Andrew's fault.

On the other hand,Andrew,I truly believe that you have learned your lessons last year,and that you know exactly what you have done wrong.
The fact that your site,this board and your attitude are discussed in a negative manner in some circles is a consequence of the way some people choose to use the message boards that you own.You allow freedom of speech,which is a wonderful thing,but this right was often misused and abused.
Also,don't be surprised that MR is bashed on other forums...Other sites have been bashed big time here,so I guess it just goes in a circle..."What you give is what you get".

Aside all this,MR remains the most open-minded and informative site of all,and personally,I don't judge your activity based on only one forum.I see the whole picture and all in all you have my respect for all the great things you have done in 10 years.
You should be proud of that.

[LAWoman]

Yes, you are wrong. I'm not sure why you care what is posted on other forums. Considering what is posted here about other forums, the statements you mention are pretty mild. People come here to complain about other forums including BT so what is the big surprise that people who don't feel welcome here complain elsewhere. Since you brought it up, MR is only fan friendly to a little group. That's been demonstrated time and again. There are those who have given up on this place. Particularly after those interviews. I'll voice what many have said elsewhere. You violated the basic tenents of journalism 101, objectivity. There's probably no coming back from that.

Now you can all join in and do your bashing. Clearly Andrew was asking, but not asking anyone who might disagree. One, two, three, go:

Hullo!
I'm actually pleased to hear a discenting view. The thread was't about needing to hear nothing but positives (although I really do appreciate that feedback!)

I understand the reluctance of some to post here, but they really should give it a try. I don't agree that this is fan friendly only to a little group - there are more different regular users here than just about any other board I have seen.
I believe you do get a great cross section of views here.

I'm also interesing in hearing why you think I am not objective and in what regard?
I can't be held accountable for what others say when I interview them...especially given the setting.

I do believe there are a few that have given up on this place, but possibly only becuase they do not like the outcome of recent events rather than my interviews with the new Journey line-up.

Nothing that was said here or in those interviews would have changed the inevitable.

You are not that dense as to need "objective" explained to you. If this were a fan site, the things that have gone on (and continue) would be expected. Perhaps it was my mistake to ever hold the opinion that MR had objective info and objective (in the journalistic sense) interviews. There is Time Mag and there is the National Enquirer. We all knew there was quite a bit of tabloid journalism around this place, but now that the extent has surfaced, it is rather disheartening.

It is not the content of the latest Journey interviews that is the point. There was not much that was surprising in them. It is all that surrounded them. Unfortunately at some point it became about people other than Journey. Even the fact that you come on these message boards and claim to need a little propping up from your minions in this thread demonstrates the point. This is just another "fan" site now. Many of us previously believed it was a valid media outlet. Our mistake.

[Rockindeano]

It is not the content of the latest Journey interviews that is the point. There was not much that was surprising in them. It is all that surrounded them. Unfortunately at some point it became about people other than Journey. Even the fact that you come on these message boards and claim to need a little propping up from your minions in this thread demonstrates the point. This is just another "fan" site now. Many of us previously believed it was a valid media outlet. Our mistake.

Leave it you. Some dried up lawyer, trying to spin things to meet her personal wants in a message board. Hey, Ms. Lawyer, take your files, your briefs and your fucking sour attitude that only Monker shares with you, and go somewhere else. By the way, your viewpoints, are NOT valid. The fact you say this site needs Andrews' minions to step up to escalate conversation is a numb poke in my and others' backs. This site is more popular than ever, and regardless of what the reason, that tells me the ingredients on this board mesh quite well, thank you.

[Liz22562]

Then why have a lot of people that use to post here (over the last couple of years) chose not to post much, if at all, anymore Deano?

I believe it truly had nothing to do with the "content" of Andrew's interviews, contrary to what he stated. There are a handful on here that are my favorite posters. I've enjoyed reading their posts since I joined this forum. A few rarely post and a few have not posted in months. If you have been cruising these forums for as long as I have, it is not that difficult to understand why there have been complaints or some people have left. And I'm not talking about the ones that make their "hit and runs".

[Red13JoePa]

Liz is right that 'Gate drove some great posters into the woodwork to lurk-only or post much less.

If I can take it, (prolly) the biggest Generations lineup fan here then I'd invite those friends back here as well and they know who they are. I had a lots of egg on my face when it became apparent Augeri needed taped help.

[Monker]

Then read and post at journeyforums.com

I think you'll have a different experience.

Yes, you are wrong. I'm not sure why you care what is posted on other forums. Considering what is posted here about other forums, the statements you mention are pretty mild. People come here to complain about other forums including BT so what is the big surprise that people who don't feel welcome here complain elsewhere. Since you brought it up, MR is only fan friendly to a little group. That's been demonstrated time and again. There are those who have given up on this place. Particularly after those interviews. I'll voice what many have said elsewhere. You violated the basic tenents of journalism 101, objectivity. There's probably no coming back from that.

Now you can all join in and do your bashing. Clearly Andrew was asking, but not asking anyone who might disagree. One, two, three, go:

Hullo!
I'm actually pleased to hear a discenting view. The thread was't about needing to hear nothing but positives (although I really do appreciate that feedback!)

I understand the reluctance of some to post here, but they really should give it a try. I don't agree that this is fan friendly only to a little group - there are more different regular users here than just about any other board I have seen.
I believe you do get a great cross section of views here.

I'm also interesing in hearing why you think I am not objective and in what regard?
I can't be held accountable for what others say when I interview them...especially given the setting.

I do believe there are a few that have given up on this place, but possibly only becuase they do not like the outcome of recent events rather than my interviews with the new Journey line-up.

Nothing that was said here or in those interviews would have changed the inevitable.

You are not that dense as to need "objective" explained to you. If this were a fan site, the things that have gone on (and continue) would be expected. Perhaps it was my mistake to ever hold the opinion that MR had objective info and objective (in the journalistic sense) interviews. There is Time Mag and there is the National Enquirer. We all knew there was quite a bit of tabloid journalism around this place, but now that the extent has surfaced, it is rather disheartening.

It is not the content of the latest Journey interviews that is the point. There was not much that was surprising in them. It is all that surrounded them. Unfortunately at some point it became about people other than Journey. Even the fact that you come on these message boards and claim to need a little propping up from your minions in this thread demonstrates the point. This is just another "fan" site now. Many of us previously believed it was a valid media outlet. Our mistake.

[Monker]

It is not the content of the latest Journey interviews that is the point. There was not much that was surprising in them. It is all that surrounded them. Unfortunately at some point it became about people other than Journey. Even the fact that you come on these message boards and claim to need a little propping up from your minions in this thread demonstrates the point. This is just another "fan" site now. Many of us previously believed it was a valid media outlet. Our mistake.

Leave it you. Some dried up lawyer, trying to spin things to meet her personal wants in a message board. Hey, Ms. Lawyer, take your files, your briefs and your fucking sour attitude that only Monker shares with you, and go somewhere else. By the way, your viewpoints, are NOT valid. The fact you say this site needs Andrews' minions to step up to escalate conversation is a numb poke in my and others' backs. This site is more popular than ever, and regardless of what the reason, that tells me the ingredients on this board mesh quite well, thank you.

BTW, anybody else who shares LAWoman's sanity and believes posts like the above DRIVE PEOPLE AWAY should also join journeyforums.com

[larryfromnextdoor]

Our mistake.

nope, your mistake, dont speak for me with your "our" lingo crap,, id finally like to see someone say this and then do what they say and leave , FOR GOOD... ask to have your account voided out,, you are the weakest link , good bye..

[Lula]

I'm also interesing in hearing why you think I am not objective and in what regard?
I can't be held accountable for what others say when I interview them...especially given the setting.

I do believe there are a few that have given up on this place, but possibly only becuase they do not like the outcome of recent events rather than my interviews with the new Journey line-up.

Nothing that was said here or in those interviews would have changed the inevitable.

This is what I don't get. You did not write an opinion piece or some work of fiction. You presented interviews and a tour diary. I was taken to task for defending your actions, which were blown way out of proportion by so many.

I am very happy posting on MR. I appreciate your efforts. There are opposing views and opinions here, those that don't see it may have difficulty comprehending. I'm with the few that say people are envious of your success with your Journey forum. You are doing a service to us all, including Journey.

[Lula]

Perhaps people are confusing this forum with the newspage. Both are individul entities. Andrew has made it clear that the posters make the forum. As far as the front page, it is news, and valid at that. Andrew has provided the melodic rock community with scoops, interviews, and news for many years. To discount his contributions based on the latest interviews with Journey is ridiculous and wrong. If what Melodic Rock offers is of no interest to some, just don't bother with the site. No sweat.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Lack of objectivity?
I'm at a loss for that one.
You get a strong sense from the interviews that Andrew was appreciative to be interviewing the guys and to have this behind-the-scenes experience. But, that's a good thing. Andrew's enthusisam was infectious and made the piece more relatable to the average fan - as we all would kill to be in his shoes.

The day Andrew no longer gets butterflies in his gut about meeting Journey, or fellow melodic rock legends, is the day he should quit his job.

LAWoman has ALWAYS been a dour crab and is obviously suffering from a slow day at the strip mall law office.
The events that transpired on this forum only seem tabloidesque or non-objctive to those who refuse to believe them.

[Liz22562]

Lula, with all due respect and what I believe a few members of this forum do not seem to understand, is that it had nothing to do with the content of Andrew's interviews.

It was who "proof read" them. And again, no offense to Deano (TNC or Oh Sherrie). I don't care who feels they were passionate about what they did or did not do for or to the band, nor do I care if anyone thinks they are a bigger fan than the next person. It had nothing to do with feelings and everything to do with the manner in which everything fell apart this summer.

Take those circumstances and pass on an interview to be proof read - especially when there was so much hatred being spewed.

That is were Andrew's objectivity will be questioned. It's a moot point as far as I'm concerned so don't shoot the messenger. I do not post here as much as I used to (not that I posted much originally) but definitely lurk here when time permits.

[Lula]

Lula, with all due respect and what I believe a few members of this forum do not seem to understand, is that it had nothing to do with the content of Andrew's interviews.

It was who "proof read" them. And again, no offense to Deano (TNC or Oh Sherrie). I don't care who feels they were passionate about what they did or did not do for or to the band nor do I care if anyone thinks they are a bigger fan than the next person. It had nothing to do with feelings and everything to do with the manner in which everything fell apart this summer.

Take those circumstances and pass on an interview to be proof read - especially when there was so much hatred being spewed.

That is were Andrew's objectivity will be questioned. It's a moot point as far as I'm concerned so don't shoot the messenger. I do not post here as much as I used to (not that I posted much originally) but definitely lurk here when time permits.

Sour grapes! If anger is going to be directed over this past summer's events it should be directed at the offenders- JOURNEY. If Andrew accepted an offer to help with transcribing- so what! If he asked a few of the long time, intelligent posters that may even be called friends to have a gander- so what! Andrew busted his ass to get his feature out to the fans ASAP, only to be held up by team Journey. I say it again- changes in content were not made whatsoever. This is over and done with. Why the hell does it matter??

(not shooting the messenger, Liz. Only stating my opinion and questions)

[nolippin]

It matters to many because it compromised Andrew's professionalism, IMO. Allowing ANYone else to have access to the interviews...particularly given their sensitive nature was not a professional thing to do. That was made worse by the people involved who insisted on starting threads and making comments regarding the interviews in case anyone missed their involvement. To make matters even worse, the interviews were released with a number of grammatical errors giving credibility to the thought that the interviews were released to the wrong people.

I believe Andrew is just going to have to take his lumps for that one.

Lula, with all due respect and what I believe a few members of this forum do not seem to understand, is that it had nothing to do with the content of Andrew's interviews.

It was who "proof read" them. And again, no offense to Deano (TNC or Oh Sherrie). I don't care who feels they were passionate about what they did or did not do for or to the band nor do I care if anyone thinks they are a bigger fan than the next person. It had nothing to do with feelings and everything to do with the manner in which everything fell apart this summer.

Take those circumstances and pass on an interview to be proof read - especially when there was so much hatred being spewed.

That is were Andrew's objectivity will be questioned. It's a moot point as far as I'm concerned so don't shoot the messenger. I do not post here as much as I used to (not that I posted much originally) but definitely lurk here when time permits.

Sour grapes! If anger is going to be directed over this past summer's events it should be directed at the offenders- JOURNEY. If Andrew accepted an offer to help with transcribing- so what! If he asked a few of the long time, intelligent posters that may even be called friends to have a gander- so what! Andrew busted his ass to get his feature out to the fans ASAP, only to be held up by team Journey. I say it again- changes in content were not made whatsoever. This is over and done with. Why the hell does it matter??

(not shooting the messenger, Liz. Only stating my opinion and questions)

[Lula]

It matters to many because it compromised Andrew's professionalism, IMO. Allowing ANYone else to have access to the interviews...particularly given their sensitive nature was not a professional thing to do. That was made worse by the people involved who insisted on starting threads and making comments regarding the interviews in case anyone missed their involvement. To make matters even worse, the interviews were released with a number of grammatical errors giving credibility to the thought that the interviews were released to the wrong people.

I believe Andrew is just going to have to take his lumps for that one.

Well then- so be it. If people have a problem with the way Andrew conducts himself they can just stay off of HIS site. Time to let this one go.

[The_Noble_Cause]

It matters to many because it compromised Andrew's professionalism, IMO. Allowing ANYone else to have access to the interviews...

Writers, professional and amateur alike, always recruit an extra pair of eyes.
Your claims would only have merit if the content was in anyway changed.
It wasn't, so the point is moot.

People are blinded by their personal hostility towards Dean.

[Liz22562]

I agree with much of what you said, Lula. If anyone is feeling any angst, they do need to direct it to Journey, the offenders, if you will, in this whole debacle. But, since the only one responding to any type of questions is JDoubleS (from Journey's camp) you have to know they are going to aim at Andrew and fire away....big time.

I think it is extremely unfortunate that Andrew and JSS are getting pot shots thrown at them. I also understand why Andrew is getting grief (no offense to you either Andrew as you know I enjoy reading and posting here). I have no inclination to hold my breath and wait to see what Neal, Jon or Ross have to say about it. What's done is done.

This too shall pass......

[amaron]

People are blinded by their personal hostility towards Dean.

The hostility works both ways.

People with dissenting opinions are treated like garbage at times.

[nolippin]

I believe that the reason many were driven into the woodwork has as much to do with the aftermath of Tapegate as Tapegate itself. Tapegate has been over since July. However, a small group emerged as self proclaimed "leaders" to try and tell people not posting in total agreement with them and their leader that they were going incur his wrath and other sophmoric declarations. Any threads started with any meaniingful discussion not centered around them and their recent escapades were hijacked. After a while it just isn't worth the effort to try and follow the discussion.

To feel like people who criticize are just jealous, is just arrogant, IMO. There exists here a handful of people who try and set the tone for this board just as there is a handful of people at BT who are ruining it for the majority. I don't see a lot of difference except the language.

Liz is right that 'Gate drove some great posters into the woodwork to lurk-only or post much less.

If I can take it, (prolly) the biggest Generations lineup fan here then I'd invite those friends back here as well and they know who they are. I had a lots of egg on my face when it became apparent Augeri needed taped help.

[nolippin]

The difference is that they do not recruit that "extra pair of eyes" from their "audience". The people recruited were obviously not professionals or there would not have been so many typos.

It matters to many because it compromised Andrew's professionalism, IMO. Allowing ANYone else to have access to the interviews...

Writers, professional and amateur alike, always recruit an extra pair of eyes.
Your claims would only have merit if the content was in anyway changed.
It wasn't, so the point is moot.

People are blinded by their personal hostility towards Dean.

[yogi]

Andrew,

Did you actually say that this fourm was family friendly??????

Actually it might be family friendly if you are from across the pond.

Many years ago I coached a couple of All Star Baseball Teams in Appledorn Holland. One night we ended up at our tournament hosts house. It suprised the hell out of me to find a TWO vibrators plugged into the wall socket in his living room & in a bathroom. It suprised me even more to know that he had two teenage kids living there with him and his wife.


I guess that this fourm is friendly to this type of family.


But damn it is funny here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Red13JoePa]

No, Andrew once said that he WISHED to keep the place as family-friendly as possible and asked us to minimize constant use of profanity.

But he never guaranteed he'd be able to strike every single X-rated post from the place.

He asked for adult self moderation.

Profanity is part of my sentance-to-sentance vernacular. Rarerly go more than a few minutes as long women aren't around w/out dropping a "bomb."

but around here where you never know who's looking at this thing, sometimes one should try to discriminate a little.

[larryfromnextdoor]

vernacular

"kindly drop the venacular".."vernacular?!! thants a derby!"

[squirt1]

Andrew- This is the most informative board ANYWHERE !!! The message boards are ALWAYS entertaining and I get to hear music that I wasn't aware existed. There are no lemmings here and no wiggling required .Thanks !

[belar]

You know, I lurked here AND at BT for a long time before I began posting. The attitude at BT turned me off so much that I have completely stopped checking that site, never having posted once. On the other hand, after reading thread upon thread at MR, I decided that this was a pretty cool place to be and I started posting here. I think Andrew does a terrific job stepping in when things get out of hand, but otherwise, mostly leaving folks alone to settle their problems like the adults we are. This is by far the most informative site I frequent, and my rather strange favorites list runs the gamut of varying interests. I loved reading the interviews when the announcement was made, and I think they were done with a eye toward quality and professionalism. I am also, of course, insanely jealous of Andrew, and Deano, and AR, and many other folks here who have met the band many times.

As far as I'm concerned, Andrew, you're doing a top-notch job, and to those who are unhappy here, if you don't like the program, change the channel.

[San Diego Gary]

Its just like racing, when everyone is pissed and thinks you're a cheating asshole, it means you're winning big time.

L8r,

Aaron

Yeah, that's what Jimmie Johnson must feel like, eh, Aron?

Well, even though he had a few "issues" in tech, and I'm a 17 fan, Jimmie still deserved the title.