OT: Border guard trial

[Wheels Of Fyre]

And people who think like you are a disgrace to American ideology.

Fyre, no one takes your arguments seriously because all you ever do is play the intolerance card when someone disagrees with you.

Grow up.

I don't know that you can speak for everyone.

[RossValoryRocks]

And people who think like you are a disgrace to American ideology.

Fyre, no one takes your arguments seriously because all you ever do is play the intolerance card when someone disagrees with you.

Grow up.

I don't know that you can speak for everyone.

And yet you don't even see the point nor debate it, because you have no substantive argument.
You cloak everything in emotional terms that do nothing to bolster your claims, and have no basis in fact, so in the end you lose the debate.

[conversationpc]

And people who think like you are a disgrace to American ideology.

Fyre, no one takes your arguments seriously because all you ever do is play the intolerance card when someone disagrees with you.

Grow up.

I don't know that you can speak for everyone.

And yet you don't even see the point nor debate it, because you have no substantive argument.
You cloak everything in emotional terms that do nothing to bolster your claims, and have no basis in fact, so in the end you lose the debate.

I can respect someone being passionate for their cause but if it's not backed up with facts, it's empty.

[RossValoryRocks]

It's ColOmbia with an "O". Yes - she AND I did things legally. Do you know what we had to do? Of course not. Do you know what it takes to get here legally? I doubt it.

Sorry I am not quite the typist you are. I generally don't proof read as I type.

Considering that 3 of my sisters-in-law are naturalized citizens and I know how hard it was for their families to get here LEGALLY I would say you are WRONG, WRONG, and WRONG again.
As for how hard it is, IT SHOULD BE. Things worth having require sacrafice and effort. They also require doing it legally and within the rules of such things.

Let me put it to you this way. I'm an American citizen born and raised. My wife is a permanent resident and Colombian citizen. We tried to LEGALLY get her parents here to visit their grandchildren whom they've never seen. That's it. We just wanted a simple visitor's visa. Immigration denied it. Why? Because they're considered impoverished and therefore have no compelling reason to honor their visa and return home.

Yeah because most of those who have been granted those visas have done just that, over stayed their welcome.

You'd think that my status as a tax-paying citizen and my wife's as a premanent resident would have some bearing. It doesn't. I fully understand the position of Immigration on this matter. They don't want her parents to become a burden to our society. BUT - here's a situation when it's all in their favor! They know who we are and where we live. They know EVERYTHING about us and my in-laws. If we were to violate the visa then they would know exactly where to find us. They could hunt us down like dogs and exact punishment. But NO. We've tried to do things LEGALLY but because of poverty we're screwed. Now if they granted the visa we would spend American dollars to house and feed them - along with anything else that they would need - it would all go into the American economy. As it is we now have to visit Colombia. So everything that we would've spent here is now going to go into the economy of Colombia. Makes sense!

Now it sounds to me like your gripe is just an emotional reaction because things didn't go your way.

In contrast to that we have a friend who brought her brother here to visit from Colombia. For what? So that he could find a job and earn some quick money in order to help his mentally and physically challenged daughter who was in dire need of medical care that he couldn't afford as a taxi driver in Colombia. A local job shop hired him KNOWING that his visa was NOT a work visa. They worked his ass off. He did all of the dangerous stuff and got paid less than anyone. He was injured and burned by chemicals and paid for the treatment himself. He then viloated his visa by staying longer than it allowed. In the end the job shop got someone to do the shit jobs and he got enough American dollars to convert over to help his daughter.

So he tried to do good...and he did...right up until he did it ILLEGALLY.

Do you NOT KNOW THE DEFINITION OF ILLEGAL? Just to clarify...it means AGAINST THE LAW!. As in CRIMINAL.

I have many more stories but I'm not going to post further. The point here is that IN MY LIFE - the people I KNOW PERSONALLY do NOT fit the hysterical characterizations that have been made here, there, and everywhere in the media.

Yeah...hysterical characterization...now they are STATEMENTS OF FACT. The American populations of the Southwest are being pushed out by illegals.

Certainly, there are some illegals that do however I don't know any - and I know A LOT. If anyone should be pissed about them it should be ME. Here I am surrounded by illegals when I had to go throuhg such aggravation getting my wife here. You know why I'm not pissed? Because I know them and what I know about them doesn't jive with the hysteria.

But you know plenty, perhaps INS needs to visit you and help you find these illegals you know to deport them back to their countries of origin, with a note telling them to try it again THE LEGAL WAY.

All of the illegals I know are employed and pay taxes.

Really?? With no Social Security number? Nice try, but again no facts.

As for collecting benefits - I know more LAZY, good-for-nothing Americans who abuse our system.

Wow...a fact...yeah...I think those people need to be tossed off the government dole as well.

More media hype. Again, this was said of the Chinese and Irish that poured into this country and eventually were the labor force that built our railroad systems.

Nobody TAKES a job from anyone. I've worked TWO jobs on and off over the last few years. One full-time and one part-time. I can tell you that if I had the time I could've worked a third job EASILY. The national employment rate is around 4%!!! What you're saying is unfounded in reality.

No it is not...all those people who are living on the government dole and doing nothing could take those jobs, then we wouldn't have people living off the government for generation after generation.

Yeah. The American economy is on and off the strongest in the WORLD. Those illegals sure are dragging us down.

I didn't say they are dragging us down, don't mischaracterize, it's poor debating technique. I said they are a DRAIN...meaning the take from the system, and yet do no support it.

And I can say the same for my wife but the REALITY is that it isn't always that easy to follow the rules.

Those who don't follow the rules and laws are criminals. Easy or not, you have to do so.

The illegals coming in, be the Hispanic or otherwise, DO NONE of these things. They come here against the law, making them CRIMINALS, they refuse to learn the language, they engage in illicit and criminal behavior at a rate FAR above the people who legally enter the country.

This characterization does NOT fit any of the illegals I know.

in your statement you call them illegals, that makes them CRIMINALS. Look at the rate of crime in LA, so 60% of ALL muder warrants are for ILLEGALS, and in just how many illegal households is English spoken as the 1st language, or even attempted? Sure the learn just enough English to get by, but that's it.

The so-called "facts" that you've presented here are in absolute disagreement with the reality of my personal life and those whom I know.

[squirt1]

9200 US citizens are killed by illegals each year according to gov't statistics. If either party of Congress is serious about the laughable war on drugs,the border would be closed. Call your Senator or Congressmans office and scream for the border to be closed. I called Thursday and asked "why isn't she standing on the floor being verbal like she has with other issues" ? We have a sheriff ,one county north, and he is going after employers and temp services. He was recently trained to be aloud to deport. Since the INS can't get their act together or are overwhelmed, maybe more sheriff offices need to do this also.

[Lula]

I feel bad for the Border agents. From what I've heard the 2 agents did not follow protocol in the shooting incident. I've also heard that the jury were not given any of the facts about the 'victim.' It is sickening when a drug dealer on U.S. property illegally has his rights protected and the agents seem to be railroaded to prison. I don't care what anyone's party affiliation is, we've all been let down by our politicians where illeagal immigration is concerned. The bozos are not respecting and enforcing the laws that are already on the books. Homeland security? Right......

[Saint John]

I feel bad for the Border agents. From what I've heard the 2 agents did not follow protocol in the shooting incident. I've also heard that the jury were not given any of the facts about the 'victim.' It is sickening when a drug dealer on U.S. property illegally has his rights protected and the agents seem to be railroaded to prison. I don't care what anyone's party affiliation is, we've all been let down by our politicians where illeagal immigration is concerned. The bozos are not respecting and enforcing the laws that are already on the books. Homeland security? Right......

Good post...spot on.

[SteveForever]

I feel bad for the Border agents. From what I've heard the 2 agents did not follow protocol in the shooting incident. I've also heard that the jury were not given any of the facts about the 'victim.' It is sickening when a drug dealer on U.S. property illegally has his rights protected and the agents seem to be railroaded to prison. I don't care what anyone's party affiliation is, we've all been let down by our politicians where illeagal immigration is concerned. The bozos are not respecting and enforcing the laws that are already on the books. Homeland security? Right......

Good post...spot on.

Yes good, but I don't understand the rolling of the eyes at Homeland Security. We've always had border patrols and they have a heck of a job, can't imagine how they've done it with the unbelieveable amounts of people that come thru California, Texas, Canadian border, etc. If the border agents are now under the department of Homeland Security than I'm sure they are getting much better benefits.

Homeland Security is still a relatively new agency created after 9-11 and they've done a remarkable job as well. We've had no more attacks on U.S. soil, thank you very much to all that are in these roles. Its way more complicated than just having your luggage looked at in the airport and the amount of people involved in this is staggering. **The amount of illegals that have flooded over the borders in remote areas and on private property is an entirely different crazy issue!!!

[Wheels Of Fyre]

Considering that 3 of my sisters-in-law are naturalized citizens and I know how hard it was for their families to get here LEGALLY...

Please explain how they got here.

Yeah because most of those who have been granted those visas have done just that, over stayed their welcome.

Please cite the independent source from which you can support your claim that "most" (which I would accept as 51%) of people who are granted VISITOR VISAS have overstayed them.

Now it sounds to me like your gripe is just an emotional reaction because things didn't go your way.

Please don't trivialize my life's struggles. In turn, your entire dialogue rings with a BIG chip on its shoulder: "Well, MY family followed the rules and so should EVERYONE." Certainly, that's not the case is it?

So he tried to do good...and he did...right up until he did it ILLEGALLY.

So what? Who/what did he hurt?

Do you NOT KNOW THE DEFINITION OF ILLEGAL? Just to clarify...it means AGAINST THE LAW!. As in CRIMINAL.

Please don't patronize me.

Yeah...hysterical characterization...now they are STATEMENTS OF FACT. The American populations of the Southwest are being pushed out by illegals.

Please cite your source that supports this.

But you know plenty, perhaps INS needs to visit you and help you find these illegals you know to deport them back to their countries of origin, with a note telling them to try it again THE LEGAL WAY.

It's really not INS anymore. They've merged with Homeland Security and are now called USCIS (US Citizenship and Immigration Services).

Go ahead. Send them to my house. While you're at it have them come by YOUR house. I mean the way you talk there MUST be a MILLION illegals surrounding your house - pushing and shoving you right out of your neighborhood! Taking your jobs and sucking the life right out of your community.

I'm reminded of something - what was it - oh, yeah: Look out - the Russians are coming - the Russians are coming!

All of the illegals I know are employed and pay taxes.

Really?? With no Social Security number? Nice try, but again no facts.

What facts are you looking for? They simply use false SS cards.

As for collecting benefits - I know more LAZY, good-for-nothing Americans who abuse our system.

Wow...a fact...yeah...I think those people need to be tossed off the government dole as well.

See there. The chip on your shoulder is so HUGE that you don't even trust your own government to properly manage these lazy asses.

What crime have they committed? They've played by the rules and have met the government's criteria and therefore are deserving of our tax dollars. Why should they be tossed off the government dole? Just because they're lazy? In our system you can be lazy and collect. They've not committed any crimes.

What do you want? Do you want 100% employment rate? I mean we're only off that mark by about 4%. Aren't you being just a tad extreme in your views?

No it is not...all those people who are living on the government dole and doing nothing could take those jobs, then we wouldn't have people living off the government for generation after generation.

Do you really think that statement is going to win you votes come election time?

You didn't even address my statement. If jobs were so hard to come by why is it possible for me to find a second and third? And I mean EASILY! I'm nobody special. I work in a technical field during the day and have run grocery store cash registers and unloaded department store trucks at night. I'm just not buying the hysteria that illegals are taking jobs. It's utter BS.

I didn't say they are dragging us down, don't mischaracterize, it's poor debating technique. I said they are a DRAIN...meaning the take from the system, and yet do no support it.

Please cite examples of draining and your sources.

Those who don't follow the rules and laws are criminals. Easy or not, you have to do so.

Yup. And nearly EVERYONE believes OJ killed his wife and her lover yet he's walking the streets.

I mean come on - Do you REALLY expect every law to be abided by in every instance? That doesn't even happen in fairy tales.

The illegals coming in, be the Hispanic or otherwise, DO NONE of these things. They come here against the law, making them CRIMINALS, they refuse to learn the language, they engage in illicit and criminal behavior at a rate FAR above the people who legally enter the country.

This characterization does NOT fit any of the illegals I know.

in your statement you call them illegals, that makes them CRIMINALS. Look at the rate of crime in LA, so 60% of ALL muder warrants are for ILLEGALS, and in just how many illegal households is English spoken as the 1st language, or even attempted? Sure the learn just enough English to get by, but that's it.

Statistics are easily manipulated. lease cite your source for 60%. Also, who were the victims of that 60%?

The so-called "facts" that you've presented here are in absolute disagreement with the reality of my personal life and those whom I know.

I stand by that. You've posted more personal belief than fact AS HAVE I however I'm basnig my beliefs on my own personal experiences. I'm not sure what you're basing yours on.

Whether you answer this or not is up to you. This is my last post on the subject. Feel free to believe what you want to believe. I'm not here to convince you otherwise nor would I even try.

America is a great country and I can understand why so many want to come here. They always have and always will. I believe in what is inscribed on the Statue of Liberty:
Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

No other country in the world offers these words and I won't be easily swayed from holding them firmly in my heart.

Despite the hysteria this country and continent will continue to be peopled by those seeking a better life. Long before there existed immigration laws people came here. Prehistoric hunters from the steppes of Asia crossed a bridge of land that extended across the bering Sea and Strait. Their descendants, the American Indians were ultimately thrown from the land that they loved by the Europeans in the 17th century in what was an ironic twist of fate. The Europeans came seeking riches, land, and sanctuary and in turn inflicted oppression upon the American Indians. Then came a massive immigration of unwilling African slaves which eventually grew to embrace the country given their extraordinary powers to endure and survive their indignities. In the 19th and 20th centuries came the outpouring of immigrants from nearly everywhere making the reality of Walt Whitman's vision of America as "not merely a nation but a teeming nation of nations." So many laws - written and unwritten - were broken in order to seek and prepare a better life.

Technically, illegals are criminals however sometimes laws have to be bent and even broken in the course of seeking and preparing a better life.

[Abitaman]

I will probably get a lot of crap for this, but I believe there should be a wall up of some type to keep illegals out. They are getting our taxes, social security and the government doesn't seem to care.-ERIC

[Saint John]

I will probably get a lot of crap for this, but I believe there should be a wall up of some type to keep illegals out. They are getting our taxes, social security and the government doesn't seem to care.-ERIC

I agree. I would actually go sar far as to build a wall with a sort of river or moat below it. Make it about 100 yards wide and run it the length of our border. Fill it with alligators and crocodiles and the problem is solved. Besides, Florida is running out of room for these wonderful creatures. It's a perfect scenario...unpaid security.

[RossValoryRocks]

Here ya go Fyre-Whines...

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic ... E_ID=49965

http://www.immigrationcounters.com/

Enjoy...

[Abitaman]

I do not have a problem with anyone coming into the country to live, as long as it is done by the law. They have to learn to speak our language, just like we were to do if we went there. Quit wasting our money trying to convert everything to fit them.-ERIC

[RossValoryRocks]

I do not have a problem with anyone coming into the country to live, as long as it is done by the law. They have to learn to speak our language, just like we were to do if we went there. Quit wasting our money trying to convert everything to fit them.-ERIC

:::Applaud:::

[RossValoryRocks]

More info...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_im ... ates#Crime

It's wikipedia..but it has plenty of sources for this topic.

[ohsherrie]

I will probably get a lot of crap for this, but I believe there should be a wall up of some type to keep illegals out. They are getting our taxes, social security and the government doesn't seem to care.-ERIC

You won't get any crap from me Eric. There's only so much of the stuff of better life in this melting pot, and when having illegal immigrants dip into it limits the better life that is available to the citizens of this country, it's time to keep their ladles out of our pot. Paying welfare, medicaid, and providing education to these illegals and their children is limiting the availability of that better life.

If those scut jobs that everyone says no one in this country will do are so much better than what immigrants can have in their countries let them come here legally to get them. Better yet, like someone else said, put the able bodied citizens who are on welfare to work on them.

[ohsherrie]

I do not have a problem with anyone coming into the country to live, as long as it is done by the law. They have to learn to speak our language, just like we were to do if we went there. Quit wasting our money trying to convert everything to fit them.-ERIC

Oh yes, another of my pet peeves. The language thing. I'm sick of calling customer service centers and getting people whom I can't understand and can't understand me. I know many of them are in other countries, but many of them are also in Texas and California. On the other side of that coin are my two daughters. They're both in occupations where they have to deal with calls about insurance coverage and website support for their company's regional office. How are they supposed to help people who they can't understand and who can't understand the instructions they're given? Better yet, how are they supposed to explain to someone who doesn't speak English that they can't write an insurance policly for them because they don't have a legal SS# or driver's license?

I guess Fyre would say the companies should hire some illegals to handle these calls.

[Abitaman]

When I had my kidney stone I went to several hospitals, but they were not able to help me, because of where the stone was located. So my doctor and insurance company sent me to a hospital in Nashville that had the laser needed to go in and cut the stone out.
This hospital, come to find out, was a charity hospital too. If you had no insurance or were low income, or an illegal alien (my doctor in Nashville told me this) they would see you, and not have to worry about the bill, or pay a very small amount.
this hospital put me off using them for almost two weeks, Why, because I had insurance. My insurance didn't want to pay the exact amount they the hospital wanted. but if I was an illegal alien I could have got in. My insurance company finally agreed to get me in and the hospitla started picking on other things. So for two weeks extra I sat in pain. But if I had been an illegal alien they would have seen me right then.
my doctor in Nashville, who knew I was over 3 hrs away, called pissed, at the hospital, told me to show up the next day in extreme pain, and the hospital could not turn me away, they would have to take whatever the insurance wanted to pay them. So that is how I got in. Spent over two months going hospital to doctor to hospital trying to find a doctor to help me. then I'm held up in Nashville, by a greedy hospital who wants to screw people who work, and wants to screw insurance companies, but if your an illegal alien they will help you, and speak in their language too.

like I said nothing against anyone who is from another country that is a citizen, but anyone else needs to leave, and come in right-ERIC

[SteveForever]

When I had my kidney stone I went to several hospitals, but they were not able to help me, because of where the stone was located. So my doctor and insurance company sent me to a hospital in Nashville that had the laser needed to go in and cut the stone out.
This hospital, come to find out, was a charity hospital too. If you had no insurance or were low income, or an illegal alien (my doctor in Nashville told me this) they would see you, and not have to worry about the bill, or pay a very small amount.
this hospital put me off using them for almost two weeks, Why, because I had insurance. My insurance didn't want to pay the exact amount they the hospital wanted. but if I was an illegal alien I could have got in. My insurance company finally agreed to get me in and the hospitla started picking on other things. So for two weeks extra I sat in pain. But if I had been an illegal alien they would have seen me right then.
my doctor in Nashville, who knew I was over 3 hrs away, called pissed, at the hospital, told me to show up the next day in extreme pain, and the hospital could not turn me away, they would have to take whatever the insurance wanted to pay them. So that is how I got in. Spent over two months going hospital to doctor to hospital trying to find a doctor to help me. then I'm held up in Nashville, by a greedy hospital who wants to screw people who work, and wants to screw insurance companies, but if your an illegal alien they will help you, and speak in their language too.

like I said nothing against anyone who is from another country that is a citizen, but anyone else needs to leave, and come in right-ERIC

Eric, it really is screwed up! I'm sorry you had to go thru all that, not fair. I know a German family living in the U.S. that got in dire straits and no money and they too qualified for total free medical care at the hospital over and over while we wait to see our HMO.

[ohsherrie]

Eric's case and the one described by Steveforever are classic examples of what is making the cost of medical care impossible for the average American. We've got to find a way to make the focus of medical care be caring for the sick, rather than making money from the business of caring for the sick. Medical care should be a given for citizens of this country rather than an opportunity.

[Abitaman]

Referrals, and HMOs do not bother me. Just the fact that people who sneak into this country, take work from people in this country get taken better care of by our country than the poor and middle class (sometimes upper class) of OUR country.-ERIC

[ohsherrie]

Referrals, and HMOs do not bother me. Just the fact that people who sneak into this country, take work from people in this country get taken better care of by our country than the poor and middle class (sometimes upper class) of OUR country.-ERIC

Exactly Eric, and the reason for it is the government pays for medicaid for these people easier than the insurance companies pay the bills for their policy holders. Even easier than the government pays Medicare for the people who have paid for it. It's all about money rather than care for the sick. It should qualify for prosecutions under the organized crime act(Rico in the vernacular), but it's protected by the government, so it doesn't.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

I will probably get a lot of crap for this, but I believe there should be a wall up of some type to keep illegals out. They are getting our taxes, social security and the government doesn't seem to care.-ERIC

I agree. I would actually go sar far as to build a wall with a sort of river or moat below it. Make it about 100 yards wide and run it the length of our border. Fill it with alligators and crocodiles and the problem is solved. Besides, Florida is running out of room for these wonderful creatures. It's a perfect scenario...unpaid security.

I'm still following this topic but as I said I don't have much else to add regarding immigration. Building a wall however is another topic.

What did we learn if anything from the Berlin Wall? From the Great Wall of China? From Jurassic Park?

We tore down the Berlin Wall. The Great Wall still stands as it's too damn big - it can be seen from the moon with the naked eye. Jurassic Park endures. You may recall the scene where Dr. Malcolm was learning that the geneticists "controlled" dinosaur breeding by making every animal female. Dr. Malcolm suggested that "Life finds a way." That you can't control life. That it will endure and risk everything in order to survive. As it turns out he was right. The frog DNA that they used to complete the broken DNA dinosaur allowed the dinosaurs to produce asexually.

The point being is that no matter what laws we write or what walls we build - life finds a way.

[conversationpc]

What did we learn if anything from the Berlin Wall? From the Great Wall of China? From Jurassic Park?

The Berlin wall was a wall built to separate two halves of a country, against the will of its inhabitants. It was a symbol of oppression, not for the safety of those living within the two countries. It wasn't built to protect the interior of a country from those who would do harm to it.

The Great Wall of China is a better example. It was built to protect China's northern borders. I don't think most people view it as a symbol of oppression.

Whatever example you can come up with, this is a totally different situation. This is an unusual time in history, in that a single terrorist successfully sneaking into this country, can detonate a small nuclear device and kill hundreds of thousands of people in just a few minutes. In my opinion, we need the wall and other technological solutions to help make this country more secure. Will a wall keep out all illegal immigrants? No, but it would certainly go a long way towards making us more secure.

[ohsherrie]

The Berlin wall was a wall built to separate two halves of a country, against the will of its inhabitants. It was a symbol of oppression, not for the safety of those living within the two countries. It wasn't built to protect the interior of a country from those who would do harm to it.

The Great Wall of China is a better example. It was built to protect China's northern borders. I don't think most people view it as a symbol of oppression.

Whatever example you can come up with, this is a totally different situation. This is an unusual time in history, in that a single terrorist successfully sneaking into this country, can detonate a small nuclear device and kill hundreds of thousands of people in just a few minutes. In my opinion, we need the wall and other technological solutions to help make this country more secure. Will a wall keep out all illegal immigrants? No, but it would certainly go a long way towards making us more secure.

OMG Dave, can this be the apocalypse? The only thing I can find to even marginally disagree with your post on is that it's terrorism that is the only concern with all the illegal immigration.

[Saint John]

I will probably get a lot of crap for this, but I believe there should be a wall up of some type to keep illegals out. They are getting our taxes, social security and the government doesn't seem to care.-ERIC

I agree. I would actually go sar far as to build a wall with a sort of river or moat below it. Make it about 100 yards wide and run it the length of our border. Fill it with alligators and crocodiles and the problem is solved. Besides, Florida is running out of room for these wonderful creatures. It's a perfect scenario...unpaid security.

I'm still following this topic but as I said I don't have much else to add regarding immigration. Building a wall however is another topic.

What did we learn if anything from the Berlin Wall? From the Great Wall of China? From Jurassic Park?

We tore down the Berlin Wall. The Great Wall still stands as it's too damn big - it can be seen from the moon with the naked eye. Jurassic Park endures. You may recall the scene where Dr. Malcolm was learning that the geneticists "controlled" dinosaur breeding by making every animal female. Dr. Malcolm suggested that "Life finds a way." That you can't control life. That it will endure and risk everything in order to survive. As it turns out he was right. The frog DNA that they used to complete the broken DNA dinosaur allowed the dinosaurs to produce asexually.

The point being is that no matter what laws we write or what walls we build - life finds a way.

Fuck it...just shoot them then.

[conversationpc]

The Berlin wall was a wall built to separate two halves of a country, against the will of its inhabitants. It was a symbol of oppression, not for the safety of those living within the two countries. It wasn't built to protect the interior of a country from those who would do harm to it.

The Great Wall of China is a better example. It was built to protect China's northern borders. I don't think most people view it as a symbol of oppression.

Whatever example you can come up with, this is a totally different situation. This is an unusual time in history, in that a single terrorist successfully sneaking into this country, can detonate a small nuclear device and kill hundreds of thousands of people in just a few minutes. In my opinion, we need the wall and other technological solutions to help make this country more secure. Will a wall keep out all illegal immigrants? No, but it would certainly go a long way towards making us more secure.

OMG Dave, can this be the apocalypse? The only thing I can find to even marginally disagree with your post on is that it's terrorism that is the only concern with all the illegal immigration.

Well, I don't think terrorism is the only concern about illegal immigration but it is the MAJOR concern I have.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

What did we learn if anything from the Berlin Wall? From the Great Wall of China? From Jurassic Park?

The Berlin wall was a wall built to separate two halves of a country, against the will of its inhabitants. It was a symbol of oppression, not for the safety of those living within the two countries. It wasn't built to protect the interior of a country from those who would do harm to it.

The Great Wall of China is a better example. It was built to protect China's northern borders. I don't think most people view it as a symbol of oppression.

Whatever example you can come up with, this is a totally different situation. This is an unusual time in history, in that a single terrorist successfully sneaking into this country, can detonate a small nuclear device and kill hundreds of thousands of people in just a few minutes. In my opinion, we need the wall and other technological solutions to help make this country more secure. Will a wall keep out all illegal immigrants? No, but it would certainly go a long way towards making us more secure.

There you go - either purposely missing THE POINT or trying to detour it:

The point being is that no matter what laws we write or what walls we build - life finds a way.

What do the two walls BOTH have in common? What does segregation have in common? What does ANY law, fence, or means of SEPARATING people ALWAYS come to?

An end.

LIFE FINDS A WAY.

Life found a way to "tear down" the Great Wall. Life found a way to tear down the Berlin Wall. Life found a way to end segregation.

Life can NOT be contained. It will risk everything and BURST through barriers. What risks were taken to break the barrier of gravity as we rocketed to the moon? Think of all of the barriers broken in the name of science. I could list COUNTLESS examples to support how LIFE FINDS A WAY.

I don't think you're at all respectful - maybe not even aware - of this fundamental of LIFE.

Talk about wasting tax dollars! You want to support building something that LIFE will eventually find a way over, under, around, and through!

In the words of John Lennon:
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

This isn't some fairy tale. Evidence that people can live in peace is all around us. The end of segregation and the establishment of rights for women and children are but a few.

Rather than raising walls we need to talk about building bridges. We need to acknowledge that life is bigger than any of us - that it's a burning fire deep within us ALL - fueling us on our quest to blaze new trails towards freedom and a better life. To boldly go where...wait a minute...better stop there.

Dang - I've GOT to announce my intentions to run for president! Look out Billary!

[conversationpc]

There you go - either purposely missing THE POINT or trying to detour it:

There you go - ascribing motives to people that don't have those motives. No one can have a civilized discussion with you. I probably disagree more with Ohsherrie than I do you but she at least recognizes that I'm being honest. You just can't seem to do that.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

There you go - either purposely missing THE POINT or trying to detour it:

There you go - ascribing motives to people that don't have those motives. No one can have a civilized discussion with you. I probably disagree more with Ohsherrie than I do you but she at least recognizes that I'm being honest. You just can't seem to do that.

I questioned your intent. Why not simply clarify? I didn't question your honesty - aren't you ascribing a motive to me? Aren't you playing the victim here? Isn't that something you accuse me of doing?

I'm talking about building bridges and empowering peace. If I'm being uncivilized then what is civil about the ideas here of raising walls, imprisonment, and execution.