OT: Border guard trial

[Saint John]

What did we learn if anything from the Berlin Wall? From the Great Wall of China? From Jurassic Park?

The Berlin wall was a wall built to separate two halves of a country, against the will of its inhabitants. It was a symbol of oppression, not for the safety of those living within the two countries. It wasn't built to protect the interior of a country from those who would do harm to it.

The Great Wall of China is a better example. It was built to protect China's northern borders. I don't think most people view it as a symbol of oppression.

Whatever example you can come up with, this is a totally different situation. This is an unusual time in history, in that a single terrorist successfully sneaking into this country, can detonate a small nuclear device and kill hundreds of thousands of people in just a few minutes. In my opinion, we need the wall and other technological solutions to help make this country more secure. Will a wall keep out all illegal immigrants? No, but it would certainly go a long way towards making us more secure.

There you go - either purposely missing THE POINT or trying to detour it:

The point being is that no matter what laws we write or what walls we build - life finds a way.

What do the two walls BOTH have in common? What does segregation have in common? What does ANY law, fence, or means of SEPARATING people ALWAYS come to?

An end.

LIFE FINDS A WAY.

Life found a way to "tear down" the Great Wall. Life found a way to tear down the Berlin Wall. Life found a way to end segregation.

Life can NOT be contained. It will risk everything and BURST through barriers. What risks were taken to break the barrier of gravity as we rocketed to the moon? Think of all of the barriers broken in the name of science. I could list COUNTLESS examples to support how LIFE FINDS A WAY.

I don't think you're at all respectful - maybe not even aware - of this fundamental of LIFE.

Talk about wasting tax dollars! You want to support building something that LIFE will eventually find a way over, under, around, and through!

In the words of John Lennon:
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

This isn't some fairy tale. Evidence that people can live in peace is all around us. The end of segregation and the establishment of rights for women and children are but a few.

Rather than raising walls we need to talk about building bridges. We need to acknowledge that life is bigger than any of us - that it's a burning fire deep within us ALL - fueling us on our quest to blaze new trails towards freedom and a better life. To boldly go where...wait a minute...better stop there.

Dang - I've GOT to announce my intentions to run for president! Look out Billary!

1) Comparing oppressed people to criminals is ludicrous, and 2) John Lennon's acid-induced ramblings contained about as much substance as Terry Schiavo's stomach moments before she died. And please refer to them as "criminals" NOT "life" as it's nauseating and incorrect.

[SteveForever]

There you go - either purposely missing THE POINT or trying to detour it:

There you go - ascribing motives to people that don't have those motives. No one can have a civilized discussion with you. I probably disagree more with Ohsherrie than I do you but she at least recognizes that I'm being honest. You just can't seem to do that.

I questioned your intent. Why not simply clarify? I didn't question your honesty - aren't you ascribing a motive to me? Aren't you playing the victim here? Isn't that something you accuse me of doing?

I'm talking about building bridges and empowering peace. If I'm being uncivilized then what is civil about the ideas here of raising walls, imprisonment, and execution.

Frye, what is civil about raising walls, imprisonment and execution...? hmmm....let me think.
How about protection of innocent lives, property and the rights of citizens in the U.S. that pay huge taxes and have lost lives in wars over centuries to make this country the great place it is? It would be wonderful if everyone could have a country as great as ours, but they don't and there are reasons we have to have barriers in life. What you are talking about is absolute fantasy and I have a feeling you are just trying to annoy people, because surely you understand the consequences that go with these problems.

You love the Latin culture, but the most dangerous gangs in America right now are Latin and Vietnamese.
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7244879/site/newsweek/
Imprisonment is a must for these hardened criminals that are mostly here illegally. Did you know over 400 innocent Mexican women and young girls have been murdered in recent years just over the border of El Paso=these are unsolved mysteries....think about it.
www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/8955 ... 1171298674

Mexico is a dangerous place and even the police can be very corrupt there. America has done wonderful things thru our government, churches and civil groups to help the people neighboring us to help them survive, but we can't simply just open the borders! Right now they are risking their own lives to come over here thru water sources, underground tunnels and in the backs of trucks, wheel wells, you name it. This wall that people are proposing along with other ideas could actually be saving lives.

The Mexican government has to get their act together too and show some responsibility towards their culture. Its not all up to us. I don't want to debate with you, but seriously, you have got to be kidding with the build a bridge. I love Mexican people and I love their culture, but life is difficult and not fair. There has to be some control over the drugs coming from over the border and other illegal activity.
Anyway, Jurrasiac Park is just a fantasy.

[Abitaman]

Real life case in my town
Woman has two kids, the father of her last kid was killed. He was an illegal immigrant using a fake social security. She wants to sue the government for his taxes to support her kid. It said to be known that she knew he was not a citizen and was trying to get him in the country. Should she sue for the money? Is she entitled to the tax money they he paid in ? Should she be sued by the government or imprisoned?-ERIC

[RedWingFan]

1) Comparing oppressed people to criminals is ludicrous, and 2) John Lennon's acid-induced ramblings contained about as much substance as Terry Schiavo's stomach moments before she died. And please refer to them as "criminals" NOT "life" as it's nauseating and incorrect.

saint john, I'm nominating this post as post of the week. Instant classic

[conversationpc]

I questioned your intent. Why not simply clarify? I didn't question your honesty - aren't you ascribing a motive to me? Aren't you playing the victim here? Isn't that something you accuse me of doing?

I'm talking about building bridges and empowering peace. If I'm being uncivilized then what is civil about the ideas here of raising walls, imprisonment, and execution.

You said I was PURPOSELY missing the point or TRYING to detour it. If that's not ascribing a motive to someone, I don't know what is.

[Saint John]

1) Comparing oppressed people to criminals is ludicrous, and 2) John Lennon's acid-induced ramblings contained about as much substance as Terry Schiavo's stomach moments before she died. And please refer to them as "criminals" NOT "life" as it's nauseating and incorrect.

saint john, I'm nominating this post as post of the week. Instant classic

Just calling it the way I see it. And thank you, sir.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

What did we learn if anything from the Berlin Wall? From the Great Wall of China? From Jurassic Park?

The Berlin wall was a wall built to separate two halves of a country, against the will of its inhabitants. It was a symbol of oppression, not for the safety of those living within the two countries. It wasn't built to protect the interior of a country from those who would do harm to it.

The Great Wall of China is a better example. It was built to protect China's northern borders. I don't think most people view it as a symbol of oppression.

Whatever example you can come up with, this is a totally different situation. This is an unusual time in history, in that a single terrorist successfully sneaking into this country, can detonate a small nuclear device and kill hundreds of thousands of people in just a few minutes. In my opinion, we need the wall and other technological solutions to help make this country more secure. Will a wall keep out all illegal immigrants? No, but it would certainly go a long way towards making us more secure.

There you go - either purposely missing THE POINT or trying to detour it:

The point being is that no matter what laws we write or what walls we build - life finds a way.

What do the two walls BOTH have in common? What does segregation have in common? What does ANY law, fence, or means of SEPARATING people ALWAYS come to?

An end.

LIFE FINDS A WAY.

Life found a way to "tear down" the Great Wall. Life found a way to tear down the Berlin Wall. Life found a way to end segregation.

Life can NOT be contained. It will risk everything and BURST through barriers. What risks were taken to break the barrier of gravity as we rocketed to the moon? Think of all of the barriers broken in the name of science. I could list COUNTLESS examples to support how LIFE FINDS A WAY.

I don't think you're at all respectful - maybe not even aware - of this fundamental of LIFE.

Talk about wasting tax dollars! You want to support building something that LIFE will eventually find a way over, under, around, and through!

In the words of John Lennon:
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

This isn't some fairy tale. Evidence that people can live in peace is all around us. The end of segregation and the establishment of rights for women and children are but a few.

Rather than raising walls we need to talk about building bridges. We need to acknowledge that life is bigger than any of us - that it's a burning fire deep within us ALL - fueling us on our quest to blaze new trails towards freedom and a better life. To boldly go where...wait a minute...better stop there.

Dang - I've GOT to announce my intentions to run for president! Look out Billary!

1) Comparing oppressed people to criminals is ludicrous, and 2) John Lennon's acid-induced ramblings contained about as much substance as Terry Schiavo's stomach moments before she died. And please refer to them as "criminals" NOT "life" as it's nauseating and incorrect.

1) I wasn't comparing oppressed people to criminals. I was pointing to how those who came to this country BEFORE it was a white man-organized nation had written and unwritten laws that were entirely disregarded by the white man. Laws. That's what we're talking about - right? What about THEIR laws? The white man ran to this country to escape laws! They came here for sanctuary from laws that they didn't like and then turned right around and imposed their own laws on the Native Americans! Talk about criminal behavior. RECOGNIZE! Hence, my point - no matter what laws are written they only serve THOSE WHO WRITE THEM. Eventually, life will find a way regardless of any laws, walls, or other obstacles thrown in the path by hystera, intolerance, and ignorance.

2) John Lennon's song Imagine is FAR from an acid-induced rambling. It's a LUCID and deeply spiritual yearning in the vein of MLK's "I Have A Dream". It was played in NY during the dropping of the New Year's ball. It's a song that MANY revere.

To make light of Terry Schiavo is beyond sick.

You want me to refer to illegals as "criminals" rather than "life". Sorry. Life is life regardless of any legal or societal status - kind of like how you're life despite the fact that your words say otherwise.

[Saint John]

What did we learn if anything from the Berlin Wall? From the Great Wall of China? From Jurassic Park?

The Berlin wall was a wall built to separate two halves of a country, against the will of its inhabitants. It was a symbol of oppression, not for the safety of those living within the two countries. It wasn't built to protect the interior of a country from those who would do harm to it.

The Great Wall of China is a better example. It was built to protect China's northern borders. I don't think most people view it as a symbol of oppression.

Whatever example you can come up with, this is a totally different situation. This is an unusual time in history, in that a single terrorist successfully sneaking into this country, can detonate a small nuclear device and kill hundreds of thousands of people in just a few minutes. In my opinion, we need the wall and other technological solutions to help make this country more secure. Will a wall keep out all illegal immigrants? No, but it would certainly go a long way towards making us more secure.

There you go - either purposely missing THE POINT or trying to detour it:

The point being is that no matter what laws we write or what walls we build - life finds a way.

What do the two walls BOTH have in common? What does segregation have in common? What does ANY law, fence, or means of SEPARATING people ALWAYS come to?

An end.

LIFE FINDS A WAY.

Life found a way to "tear down" the Great Wall. Life found a way to tear down the Berlin Wall. Life found a way to end segregation.

Life can NOT be contained. It will risk everything and BURST through barriers. What risks were taken to break the barrier of gravity as we rocketed to the moon? Think of all of the barriers broken in the name of science. I could list COUNTLESS examples to support how LIFE FINDS A WAY.

I don't think you're at all respectful - maybe not even aware - of this fundamental of LIFE.

Talk about wasting tax dollars! You want to support building something that LIFE will eventually find a way over, under, around, and through!

In the words of John Lennon:
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

This isn't some fairy tale. Evidence that people can live in peace is all around us. The end of segregation and the establishment of rights for women and children are but a few.

Rather than raising walls we need to talk about building bridges. We need to acknowledge that life is bigger than any of us - that it's a burning fire deep within us ALL - fueling us on our quest to blaze new trails towards freedom and a better life. To boldly go where...wait a minute...better stop there.

Dang - I've GOT to announce my intentions to run for president! Look out Billary!

1) Comparing oppressed people to criminals is ludicrous, and 2) John Lennon's acid-induced ramblings contained about as much substance as Terry Schiavo's stomach moments before she died. And please refer to them as "criminals" NOT "life" as it's nauseating and incorrect.

1) I wasn't comparing oppressed people to criminals. I was pointing to how those who came to this country BEFORE it was a white man-organized nation had written and unwritten laws that were entirely disregarded by the white man. Laws. That's what we're talking about - right? What about THEIR laws? The white man ran to this country to escape laws! They came here for sanctuary from laws that they didn't like and then turned right around and imposed their own laws on the Native Americans! Talk about criminal behavior. RECOGNIZE! Hence, my point - no matter what laws are written they only serve THOSE WHO WRITE THEM. Eventually, life will find a way regardless of any laws, walls, or other obstacles thrown in the path by hystera, intolerance, and ignorance.

2) John Lennon's song Imagine is FAR from an acid-induced rambling. It's a LUCID and deeply spiritual yearning in the vein of MLK's "I Have A Dream". It was played in NY during the dropping of the New Year's ball. It's a song that MANY revere.

To make light of Terry Schiavo is beyond sick.

You want me to refer to illegals as "criminals" rather than "life". Sorry. Life is life regardless of any legal or societal status - kind of like how you're life despite the fact that your words say otherwise.

You live in a fantasy-filled, utopic wonderland. Your ideas, much like John Lennon's, are neither possible nor practical. In so many words, you're condoning lawlessness because of what the "white man" did over 200 years ago. Sorry, but explaining that to a 12 year old rape victim at the hands of "life" will probably give her little comfort. The statistics about how "life" has affected California alone are staggering. Violent crimes, rapes, murders and drug-dealing seem to be "life's" way of acclimating into society. Maybe your raggy clan of coffee bean pickers are a bit more civil, but to try to mask the fact that these people are criminals is reprehensible. And I just love the two people you cited as examples. Lennon couldn't deal with reality so he was in a constant state of illusion/sedation and MLK passed the time at night by surrounding himself with sleazy hookers, whom he often beat. The two of them, much like you, lived in fantasy land.

[conversationpc]

1) I wasn't comparing oppressed people to criminals. I was pointing to how those who came to this country BEFORE it was a white man-organized nation had written and unwritten laws that were entirely disregarded by the white man. Laws. That's what we're talking about - right? What about THEIR laws? The white man ran to this country to escape laws! They came here for sanctuary from laws that they didn't like and then turned right around and imposed their own laws on the Native Americans! Talk about criminal behavior. RECOGNIZE! Hence, my point - no matter what laws are written they only serve THOSE WHO WRITE THEM. Eventually, life will find a way regardless of any laws, walls, or other obstacles thrown in the path by hystera, intolerance, and ignorance.

Well, many tribes of native Americans didn't exactly exhibit civilized behavior, either. Many of them were warlike and not any more peaceful than those from Europe that came here to make a new life for themselves.

2) John Lennon's song Imagine is FAR from an acid-induced rambling. It's a LUCID and deeply spiritual yearning in the vein of MLK's "I Have A Dream". It was played in NY during the dropping of the New Year's ball. It's a song that MANY revere.

Some of the sentiment behind "Imagine" was admirable but I at least disagree with the thought of imagining that there's no religion or heaven. True, some have caused great harm under the guise of religion, but it's also brought a lot of good.

To make light of Terry Schiavo is beyond sick.

This, I agree with. I can't believe I said that in reference to something you said.

You want me to refer to illegals as "criminals" rather than "life". Sorry. Life is life regardless of any legal or societal status - kind of like how you're life despite the fact that your words say otherwise.

Does that also extend to unborn children who could be aborted? Just curious to see if you're consistent.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

What did we learn if anything from the Berlin Wall? From the Great Wall of China? From Jurassic Park?

The Berlin wall was a wall built to separate two halves of a country, against the will of its inhabitants. It was a symbol of oppression, not for the safety of those living within the two countries. It wasn't built to protect the interior of a country from those who would do harm to it.

The Great Wall of China is a better example. It was built to protect China's northern borders. I don't think most people view it as a symbol of oppression.

Whatever example you can come up with, this is a totally different situation. This is an unusual time in history, in that a single terrorist successfully sneaking into this country, can detonate a small nuclear device and kill hundreds of thousands of people in just a few minutes. In my opinion, we need the wall and other technological solutions to help make this country more secure. Will a wall keep out all illegal immigrants? No, but it would certainly go a long way towards making us more secure.

There you go - either purposely missing THE POINT or trying to detour it:

The point being is that no matter what laws we write or what walls we build - life finds a way.

What do the two walls BOTH have in common? What does segregation have in common? What does ANY law, fence, or means of SEPARATING people ALWAYS come to?

An end.

LIFE FINDS A WAY.

Life found a way to "tear down" the Great Wall. Life found a way to tear down the Berlin Wall. Life found a way to end segregation.

Life can NOT be contained. It will risk everything and BURST through barriers. What risks were taken to break the barrier of gravity as we rocketed to the moon? Think of all of the barriers broken in the name of science. I could list COUNTLESS examples to support how LIFE FINDS A WAY.

I don't think you're at all respectful - maybe not even aware - of this fundamental of LIFE.

Talk about wasting tax dollars! You want to support building something that LIFE will eventually find a way over, under, around, and through!

In the words of John Lennon:
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

This isn't some fairy tale. Evidence that people can live in peace is all around us. The end of segregation and the establishment of rights for women and children are but a few.

Rather than raising walls we need to talk about building bridges. We need to acknowledge that life is bigger than any of us - that it's a burning fire deep within us ALL - fueling us on our quest to blaze new trails towards freedom and a better life. To boldly go where...wait a minute...better stop there.

Dang - I've GOT to announce my intentions to run for president! Look out Billary!

1) Comparing oppressed people to criminals is ludicrous, and 2) John Lennon's acid-induced ramblings contained about as much substance as Terry Schiavo's stomach moments before she died. And please refer to them as "criminals" NOT "life" as it's nauseating and incorrect.

1) I wasn't comparing oppressed people to criminals. I was pointing to how those who came to this country BEFORE it was a white man-organized nation had written and unwritten laws that were entirely disregarded by the white man. Laws. That's what we're talking about - right? What about THEIR laws? The white man ran to this country to escape laws! They came here for sanctuary from laws that they didn't like and then turned right around and imposed their own laws on the Native Americans! Talk about criminal behavior. RECOGNIZE! Hence, my point - no matter what laws are written they only serve THOSE WHO WRITE THEM. Eventually, life will find a way regardless of any laws, walls, or other obstacles thrown in the path by hystera, intolerance, and ignorance.

2) John Lennon's song Imagine is FAR from an acid-induced rambling. It's a LUCID and deeply spiritual yearning in the vein of MLK's "I Have A Dream". It was played in NY during the dropping of the New Year's ball. It's a song that MANY revere.

To make light of Terry Schiavo is beyond sick.

You want me to refer to illegals as "criminals" rather than "life". Sorry. Life is life regardless of any legal or societal status - kind of like how you're life despite the fact that your words say otherwise.

You live in a fantasy-filled, utopic wonderland. Your ideas, much like John Lennon's, are neither possible nor practical. In so many words, you're condoning lawlessness because of what the "white man" did over 200 years ago. Sorry, but explaining that to a 12 year old rape victim at the hands of "life" will probably give her little comfort. The statistics about how "life" has affected California alone are staggering. Violent crimes, rapes, murders and drug-dealing seem to be "life's" way of acclimating into society. Maybe your raggy clan of coffee bean pickers are a bit more civil, but to try to mask the fact that these people are criminals is reprehensible. And I just love the two people you cited as examples. Lennon couldn't deal with reality so he was in a constant state of illusion/sedation and MLK passed the time at night by surrounding himself with sleazy hookers, whom he often beat. The two of them, much like you, lived in fantasy land.

Stop watching Jerry Springer and recognize.

I gave examples here of how LIFE FINDS A WAY. It always will.

Women used to be considered as PROPERTY of their husbands. We've been a nation of SLAVERY. We've been a nation that's OPPRESSED. Children were abused for labor...

Do I REALLY have to cite EVERY major social and civil progression?

As for your smearing of Lennon and MLK - any sins they may have committed are between them and God.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

In so many words, you're condoning lawlessness because of what the "white man" did over 200 years ago. Sorry, but explaining that to a 12 year old rape victim at the hands of "life" will probably give her little comfort.

To address this. I'm not condoning lawlessness and to suggest that is simply ridiculous. I'm merely illustrating that laws are of benefit to those who write them. It used to be against the law for a woman to vote! Are you following at all?

Listen to you. You want to explain rape to the victim...? What do you expect to explain? Whether it's an illegal or your uncle doing the raping - what is there to explain?

[Wheels Of Fyre]

You want me to refer to illegals as "criminals" rather than "life". Sorry. Life is life regardless of any legal or societal status - kind of like how you're life despite the fact that your words say otherwise.

Does that also extend to unborn children who could be aborted? Just curious to see if you're consistent.

Absolutely. Unborn children are indeed LIFE. And while it's a traumatic event - sometimes one life must be given in order for another to survive. Life finds a way. It can die trying.

[NealIsGod]

Absolutely. Unborn children are indeed LIFE.

Funny, I always heard life begins at 40.

[Saint John]

In so many words, you're condoning lawlessness because of what the "white man" did over 200 years ago. Sorry, but explaining that to a 12 year old rape victim at the hands of "life" will probably give her little comfort.

To address this. I'm not condoning lawlessness and to suggest that is simply ridiculous. I'm merely illustrating that laws are of benefit to those who write them. It used to be against the law for a woman to vote! Are you following at all?

Listen to you. You want to explain rape to the victim...? What do you expect to explain? Whether it's an illegal or your uncle doing the raping - what is there to explain?

Sure you're condoning lawlessness....."Technically, illegals are criminals however sometimes laws have to be bent and even broken in the course of seeking and preparing a better life."

You are CLEARLY condoning the breaking of our laws. Moreover, the statistics in California alone support the claim that these illegals engage in a variety of criminal behaviors. Finally, standard logic (deductive) tells us that you ARE condoning lawlessness.
Dude, it's pretty simple to figure out that you're the guy in high school who never had friends or got laid. This alienation pushed you to the fringe where you adopted the idea of marrying someone from another country. Now, because of your newly found "identity" you've made it your life's crusade to try to empower those who are less fortunate. While certainly a noble cause, you fail to see that in your hastiness to settle all problems "Latin" you fail to apply practical principles in your often overzealous methods/ideas. It is because of this, that many of your ideas/beliefs are irresponsible, and at times dangerous. Try taking the "S" off of your chest, retire your cape for a day and return to earth. As for me, I'm done with you and your ramblings. While others might enjoy kicking your ass in debates, I've grown tired of it.

[RossValoryRocks]

It's obvious Fyre you are communist at heart. You want people to be GIVEN freely what should be earned. A better life is a good thing, but it has to be done legally and the work put in to ACHIEVE it. Illegals don't want to do the legal part at least, and some don't even want that.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

In so many words, you're condoning lawlessness because of what the "white man" did over 200 years ago. Sorry, but explaining that to a 12 year old rape victim at the hands of "life" will probably give her little comfort.

To address this. I'm not condoning lawlessness and to suggest that is simply ridiculous. I'm merely illustrating that laws are of benefit to those who write them. It used to be against the law for a woman to vote! Are you following at all?

Listen to you. You want to explain rape to the victim...? What do you expect to explain? Whether it's an illegal or your uncle doing the raping - what is there to explain?

Sure you're condoning lawlessness....."Technically, illegals are criminals however sometimes laws have to be bent and even broken in the course of seeking and preparing a better life."

You are CLEARLY condoning the breaking of our laws.

Twist away but you're getting further away with every turn.

I'm STATING A FUNDAMENTAL TRUTH regarding the HUMAN CONDITION. What don't you get? When the LAW that women were NOTHING but PROPERTY and therefore had NO RIGHTS let alone the right to vote was BENT and then BROKEN - what happened?

I could use your line of argument and say that we'd be better off reinstating that law!

You want to maintain laws that are GOOD FOR YOU. That's fine. But please don't twist what I'm saying. I'm not attacking ANY law. I'm stating what is clear to anyone who isn't caught up in hysteria.

[RossValoryRocks]

In so many words, you're condoning lawlessness because of what the "white man" did over 200 years ago. Sorry, but explaining that to a 12 year old rape victim at the hands of "life" will probably give her little comfort.

To address this. I'm not condoning lawlessness and to suggest that is simply ridiculous. I'm merely illustrating that laws are of benefit to those who write them. It used to be against the law for a woman to vote! Are you following at all?

Listen to you. You want to explain rape to the victim...? What do you expect to explain? Whether it's an illegal or your uncle doing the raping - what is there to explain?

Sure you're condoning lawlessness....."Technically, illegals are criminals however sometimes laws have to be bent and even broken in the course of seeking and preparing a better life."

You are CLEARLY condoning the breaking of our laws.

Twist away but you're getting further away with every turn.

I'm STATING A FUNDAMENTAL TRUTH regarding the HUMAN CONDITION. What don't you get? When the LAW that women were NOTHING but PROPERTY and therefore had NO RIGHTS let alone the right to vote was BENT and then BROKEN - what happened?

I could use your line of argument and say that we'd be better off reinstating that law!

You want to maintain laws that are GOOD FOR YOU. That's fine. But please don't twist what I'm saying. I'm not attacking ANY law. I'm stating what is clear to anyone who isn't caught up in hysteria.

How fucking stupid are you really? You are equating 2 things that have nothing in common.

The women you refer to were CITIZENS of this country, who were granted rights that had been taken away by archaic laws.
Illegals are not citizens of this country and have NO LEGAL STANDING TO DEMAND we change shit for them.
You are advocating we just open our borders, I can't begin to tell you how fucking stupid that it.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

It's obvious Fyre you are communist at heart. You want people to be GIVEN freely what should be earned. A better life is a good thing, but it has to be done legally and the work put in to ACHIEVE it. Illegals don't want to do the legal part at least, and some don't even want that.

The real problem is that you want to define people in order to bring about a sense of comfort through a primitive "Us against Them" ideology and mentality. You want to categorize people in order that their flaws and virtues can be readily identified and either praised or systematically attacked. It's the easy way out. People and the human condition are far more complex than that.

Back in the 50's calling me a Communist would've been tantamount to crying "Witch!" a few centuries ago! It doesn't carry the weight it once did as this is 2007 and people now don't view Communists and Witches as breaking any unwritten laws and/or as threats to the established society.

Thanks for helping me make my points!

I am in agreement that the legal way is the way to go however life isn't as black and white as we'd like it to be. Here I am accused of living in a fantasy world and yet I'm the only one recognizing that life is anything but black and white. If you think it is then I would suggest that that's a utopia that is entirely unattainable - always has been and always will be.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

How fucking stupid are you really? You are equating 2 things that have nothing in common.

The women you refer to were CITIZENS of this country, who were granted rights that had been taken away by archaic laws.
Illegals are not citizens of this country and have NO LEGAL STANDING TO DEMAND we change shit for them.
You are advocating we just open our borders, I can't begin to tell you how fucking stupid that it.

I suppose I'm as stupid as you want to think. Or perhaps I'm smart like a fox.

Illegals - by law - have absolutely no rights to demand anything to be changed. They have rights - as human beings - to ask for change. Just as women who were indeed citizens BUT had NO RIGHTS to vote in order to make changes!

Women were "granted" rights? You really need to review hisktory regarding this matter. Many women risked their lives, suffered, and died in the FIGHT for rights.

[RossValoryRocks]

It's obvious Fyre you are communist at heart. You want people to be GIVEN freely what should be earned. A better life is a good thing, but it has to be done legally and the work put in to ACHIEVE it. Illegals don't want to do the legal part at least, and some don't even want that.

The real problem is that you want to define people in order to bring about a sense of comfort through a primitive "Us against Them" ideology and mentality. You want to categorize people in order that their flaws and virtues can be readily identified and either praised or systematically attacked. It's the easy way out. People and the human condition are far more complex than that.

Back in the 50's calling me a Communist would've been tantamount to crying "Witch!" a few centuries ago! It doesn't carry the weight it once did as this is 2007 and people now don't view Communists and Witches as breaking any unwritten laws and/or as threats to the established society.

Thanks for helping me make my points!

I am in agreement that the legal way is the way to go however life isn't as black and white as we'd like it to be. Here I am accused of living in a fantasy world and yet I'm the only one recognizing that life is anything but black and white. If you think it is then I would suggest that that's a utopia that is entirely unattainable - always has been and always will be.

Not black and white...RIGHT and WRONG...you are WRONG on so many level it is astounding.
I wasn't name calling, I was point out your obvious philosophy.
It is WRONG to break laws...while you may see it as some kind of NOBLE undertaking...it isn't.
The money that illegals make and of which a majority is sent OUT of the US (If you would have read the statistics I posted you would know this) takes away from our society here. The taxes they DON'T PAY (and don't give me your bullshit about using stolen SS#'s as that is a whole OTHER crime), the using of our social security system that they haven't paid a DIME into, takes away from the responsible people and NON CRIMINALS who have paid into it.
You have some kind of Robin Hood complex or something, but you are STILL wrong, and by promoting, perhaps even aiding and abetting the breaking of our laws because they don't fit your world view is just about as criminal as those who ARE breaking the laws.

[RossValoryRocks]

I suppose I'm as stupid as you want to think. Or perhaps I'm smart like a fox.

No I am sure you are pretty stupid...and naieve in the extreme.

Illegals - by law - have absolutely no rights to demand anything to be changed. They have rights - as human beings - to ask for change. Just as women who were indeed citizens BUT had NO RIGHTS to vote in order to make changes!

They have NO RIGHT to ask us to change OUR laws to accomodate them. Should a rapist have the right to demand that the laws be changed? Or a pedophile?? Or any other criminal for that matter? NO is the answer.

Women were "granted" rights? You really need to review hisktory regarding this matter. Many women risked their lives, suffered, and died in the FIGHT for rights.

I know all about the sufferage movement...the difference is they WERE CITIZENS...your fucking illegals friends AREN'T.

[Blueskies]

I just read some of this......and Frye...I applaud you.....you have excellent debating skills .....you can convey your viewpoints clearly without letting your emotions take control and resorting to personal attacks even though they have been leveled at you several times here.....and you stand up and say what your opinions and beliefs are...not letting those that disagree with you browbeat you into being a clone to their way of thinking. Very impressive and commendable, sir. Those that are arguing against you could learn a few things from not only what you saying saying but how you say it. ....but, some are so set in their viewpoints, biases and prejudices......their racist attitudes and their need to be "right" in their minds...they refuse to listen to another side of an issue and keep an open mind ...perhaps learning something new that would change their opinion. The blatent racist statements and the need for some to resort to calling you stupid just defeats their own strength in their arguments ( and I might add that the personal attacks are not condoned by Andrew on his board) it shows how close minded and biased they are and how they think anyone that thinks differently then them are wrong.....like I said they have weakened their positions with ignorant statements and having to resort to name calling when they either dont know all their facts or cant correlate their thoughts into an effective argument. Again...I applaud you for maintaining your viewpoints and your debating skills without the need to resort to slander and to personally attack someone that disagrees with you.

[Saint John]

I just read some of this......and Frye...I applaud you.....you have excellent debating skills .....you can convey your viewpoints clearly without letting your emotions take control and resorting to personal attacks even though they have been leveled at you several times here.....and you stand up and say what your opinions and beliefs are...not letting those that disagree with you browbeat you into being a clone to their way of thinking. Very impressive and commendable, sir. Those that are arguing against you could learn a few things from not only what you saying saying but how you say it. ....but, some are so set in their viewpoints, biases and prejudices......their racist attitudes and their need to be "right" in their minds...they refuse to listen to another side of an issue and keep an open mind ...perhaps learning something new that would change their opinion. The blatent racist statements and the need for some to resort to calling you stupid just defeats their own strength in their arguments ( and I might add that the personal attacks are not condoned by Andrew on his board) it shows how close minded and biased they are and how they think anyone that thinks differently then them are wrong.....like I said they have weakened their positions with ignorant statements and having to resort to name calling when they either dont know all their facts or cant correlate their thoughts into an effective argument. Again...I applaud you for maintaining your viewpoints and your debating skills without the need to resort to slander and to personally atttack someone that disagrees with you.

We HAVE submitted facts in order to enhance our stances. It's WYNGZ that HASN'T. And if you're intelligent enough to sort through our "namecalling" you'll see that his debating skills are minimal. He simply uses the "race card" when his often ridiculous viewpoints are exploited. He still hasn't found a way to prove that illegal immigration IS a good thing. The statistics regarding California probably had something to do with that. Instead he rambles how "life finds a way." But the only thing that HAS been proven in our argument is that "life" has found a way to rob, kill and sell drugs. And certainly there ARE illegal immigrants that are here working hard in search of a better life for their families......but they entered the country illegally nonetheless, making them criminals subject to IMMEDIATE deportation.

[Blueskies]

I just read some of this......and Frye...I applaud you.....you have excellent debating skills .....you can convey your viewpoints clearly without letting your emotions take control and resorting to personal attacks even though they have been leveled at you several times here.....and you stand up and say what your opinions and beliefs are...not letting those that disagree with you browbeat you into being a clone to their way of thinking. Very impressive and commendable, sir. Those that are arguing against you could learn a few things from not only what you saying saying but how you say it. ....but, some are so set in their viewpoints, biases and prejudices......their racist attitudes and their need to be "right" in their minds...they refuse to listen to another side of an issue and keep an open mind ...perhaps learning something new that would change their opinion. The blatent racist statements and the need for some to resort to calling you stupid just defeats their own strength in their arguments ( and I might add that the personal attacks are not condoned by Andrew on his board) it shows how close minded and biased they are and how they think anyone that thinks differently then them are wrong.....like I said they have weakened their positions with ignorant statements and having to resort to name calling when they either dont know all their facts or cant correlate their thoughts into an effective argument. Again...I applaud you for maintaining your viewpoints and your debating skills without the need to resort to slander and to personally atttack someone that disagrees with you.

We HAVE submitted facts in order to enhance our stances. It's WYNGZ that HASN'T. And if you're intelligent enough to sort through our "namecalling" you'll see that his debating skills are minimal. He simply uses the "race card" when his often ridiculous viewpoints are exploited. He still hasn't found a way to prove that illegal immigration IS a good thing. The statistics regarding California probably had something to do with that. Instead he rambles how "life finds a way." But the only thing that HAS been proven in our argument is that "life" has found a way to rob, kill and sell drugs. And certainly there ARE illegal immigrants that are here working hard in search of a better life for their families......but they entered the country illegally nonetheless, making them criminals subject to IMMEDIATE deportation.

If you noticed I was not getting into the content of this debate but was just pointing out the manner in which it is being debated.....and when you say he is using the " race card" in his viewpoints and you find that ridiculous.....you do not see that when you called his family "a raggy clan of coffee bean pickers" that a statement like that cannot be viewed as even more ridiculous and totally weakens anything you have to say on the issue with a very clearly biased, racist stance. I did not name names in my post that was directed to Frye.....you exposed yourself on that one. Like I said....your racist remarks and your need to personally attack someone or someones family totally weakens your arguments and shows little strength of intelligence in a debate.

[Saint John]

I just read some of this......and Frye...I applaud you.....you have excellent debating skills .....you can convey your viewpoints clearly without letting your emotions take control and resorting to personal attacks even though they have been leveled at you several times here.....and you stand up and say what your opinions and beliefs are...not letting those that disagree with you browbeat you into being a clone to their way of thinking. Very impressive and commendable, sir. Those that are arguing against you could learn a few things from not only what you saying saying but how you say it. ....but, some are so set in their viewpoints, biases and prejudices......their racist attitudes and their need to be "right" in their minds...they refuse to listen to another side of an issue and keep an open mind ...perhaps learning something new that would change their opinion. The blatent racist statements and the need for some to resort to calling you stupid just defeats their own strength in their arguments ( and I might add that the personal attacks are not condoned by Andrew on his board) it shows how close minded and biased they are and how they think anyone that thinks differently then them are wrong.....like I said they have weakened their positions with ignorant statements and having to resort to name calling when they either dont know all their facts or cant correlate their thoughts into an effective argument. Again...I applaud you for maintaining your viewpoints and your debating skills without the need to resort to slander and to personally atttack someone that disagrees with you.

We HAVE submitted facts in order to enhance our stances. It's WYNGZ that HASN'T. And if you're intelligent enough to sort through our "namecalling" you'll see that his debating skills are minimal. He simply uses the "race card" when his often ridiculous viewpoints are exploited. He still hasn't found a way to prove that illegal immigration IS a good thing. The statistics regarding California probably had something to do with that. Instead he rambles how "life finds a way." But the only thing that HAS been proven in our argument is that "life" has found a way to rob, kill and sell drugs. And certainly there ARE illegal immigrants that are here working hard in search of a better life for their families......but they entered the country illegally nonetheless, making them criminals subject to IMMEDIATE deportation.

If you noticed I was not getting into the content of this debate but was just pointing out the manner in which it is being debated.....and when you say he is using the " race card" in his viewpoints and you find that ridiculous.....you do not see that when you called his family "a raggy clan of coffee bean pickers" that a statement like that cannot be viewed as even more ridiculous and totally weakens anything you have to say on the issue with a very clearly biased, racist stance. I did not name names in my post that was directed to Frye.....you exposed yourself on that one. Like I said....your racist remarks and your need to personally attack someone or someones family totally weakens your arguments and shows little strength of intelligence in a debate.

While a poor choice of words, the fact remains that he said they DO pick coffee beans. And if you saw their clothes they were raggy. Thus, the statement IS FACTUALLY accurate. And it's NOT racist. THAT is a stupid term. There is no such thing as racism, as we're all part of the same one. Dumbass.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

I just read some of this......and Frye...I applaud you.....you have excellent debating skills .....you can convey your viewpoints clearly without letting your emotions take control and resorting to personal attacks even though they have been leveled at you several times here.....and you stand up and say what your opinions and beliefs are...not letting those that disagree with you browbeat you into being a clone to their way of thinking. Very impressive and commendable, sir. Those that are arguing against you could learn a few things from not only what you saying saying but how you say it. ....but, some are so set in their viewpoints, biases and prejudices......their racist attitudes and their need to be "right" in their minds...they refuse to listen to another side of an issue and keep an open mind ...perhaps learning something new that would change their opinion. The blatent racist statements and the need for some to resort to calling you stupid just defeats their own strength in their arguments ( and I might add that the personal attacks are not condoned by Andrew on his board) it shows how close minded and biased they are and how they think anyone that thinks differently then them are wrong.....like I said they have weakened their positions with ignorant statements and having to resort to name calling when they either dont know all their facts or cant correlate their thoughts into an effective argument. Again...I applaud you for maintaining your viewpoints and your debating skills without the need to resort to slander and to personally attack someone that disagrees with you.

A heartfelt thanks. I truly appreciate that - it means more than I could ever put into words.

[Blueskies]

I just read some of this......and Frye...I applaud you.....you have excellent debating skills .....you can convey your viewpoints clearly without letting your emotions take control and resorting to personal attacks even though they have been leveled at you several times here.....and you stand up and say what your opinions and beliefs are...not letting those that disagree with you browbeat you into being a clone to their way of thinking. Very impressive and commendable, sir. Those that are arguing against you could learn a few things from not only what you saying saying but how you say it. ....but, some are so set in their viewpoints, biases and prejudices......their racist attitudes and their need to be "right" in their minds...they refuse to listen to another side of an issue and keep an open mind ...perhaps learning something new that would change their opinion. The blatent racist statements and the need for some to resort to calling you stupid just defeats their own strength in their arguments ( and I might add that the personal attacks are not condoned by Andrew on his board) it shows how close minded and biased they are and how they think anyone that thinks differently then them are wrong.....like I said they have weakened their positions with ignorant statements and having to resort to name calling when they either dont know all their facts or cant correlate their thoughts into an effective argument. Again...I applaud you for maintaining your viewpoints and your debating skills without the need to resort to slander and to personally atttack someone that disagrees with you.

We HAVE submitted facts in order to enhance our stances. It's WYNGZ that HASN'T. And if you're intelligent enough to sort through our "namecalling" you'll see that his debating skills are minimal. He simply uses the "race card" when his often ridiculous viewpoints are exploited. He still hasn't found a way to prove that illegal immigration IS a good thing. The statistics regarding California probably had something to do with that. Instead he rambles how "life finds a way." But the only thing that HAS been proven in our argument is that "life" has found a way to rob, kill and sell drugs. And certainly there ARE illegal immigrants that are here working hard in search of a better life for their families......but they entered the country illegally nonetheless, making them criminals subject to IMMEDIATE deportation.

If you noticed I was not getting into the content of this debate but was just pointing out the manner in which it is being debated.....and when you say he is using the " race card" in his viewpoints and you find that ridiculous.....you do not see that when you called his family "a raggy clan of coffee bean pickers" that a statement like that cannot be viewed as even more ridiculous and totally weakens anything you have to say on the issue with a very clearly biased, racist stance. I did not name names in my post that was directed to Frye.....you exposed yourself on that one. Like I said....your racist remarks and your need to personally attack someone or someones family totally weakens your arguments and shows little strength of intelligence in a debate.

While a poor choice of words, the fact remains that he said they DO pick coffee beans. And if you saw their clothes they were raggy. Thus, the statement IS FACTUALLY accurate. And it's NOT racist. THAT is a stupid term. There is no such thing as racism, as we're all part of the same one. Dumbass.

Well, at least you partially get the point by admitting that it was a poor choice of words...but only partially because you go on to use terms such as stupid and dumbass, thereby proving my stance on intelligent debate vs. an intellectually challenged argument. Remarks such as yours shows frustration and a lack of control thereby letting emotions get in the way of expressing well thought out, intelligent viewpoints. I whole heartedly agree we are all just a part of one race...the human race....but it is naive to say there is no such thing as racism. Thats like saying there is no such thing as eliticism or class systems. There are the bigated, biased, judgemental and mis- informed in every race and every culture. Racism is nothing more then an expression of fear and lack of understanding to what is not known or unfamiliar.......and it is prevalent in our society as well as others. Unfortunitely people are judged on appearance and on stereotypes of their race and/or culture........it has been done in this thread.....and you have done it here with your remark of raggy clothes....thereby judging them on appearance and dress rather then who they are as people....so you make unfair assumptions with a statement like that. The clothes do not make the person.........neither does skin color, hair style, hair length, hair color, piercings, tattoos, etc...or different cultural ways, traditions, customs and interests.... people are judged unfairly by these things and assumptions to their character is made without knowing them as a person. You continue to show examples of racism, classism, and elitism in your remarks.....thereby strengthening my arguments. Thanks for the assist, though it was not needed.......you have shown enough examples in the rest of the thread and in others.

[Blueskies]

I just read some of this......and Frye...I applaud you.....you have excellent debating skills .....you can convey your viewpoints clearly without letting your emotions take control and resorting to personal attacks even though they have been leveled at you several times here.....and you stand up and say what your opinions and beliefs are...not letting those that disagree with you browbeat you into being a clone to their way of thinking. Very impressive and commendable, sir. Those that are arguing against you could learn a few things from not only what you saying saying but how you say it. ....but, some are so set in their viewpoints, biases and prejudices......their racist attitudes and their need to be "right" in their minds...they refuse to listen to another side of an issue and keep an open mind ...perhaps learning something new that would change their opinion. The blatent racist statements and the need for some to resort to calling you stupid just defeats their own strength in their arguments ( and I might add that the personal attacks are not condoned by Andrew on his board) it shows how close minded and biased they are and how they think anyone that thinks differently then them are wrong.....like I said they have weakened their positions with ignorant statements and having to resort to name calling when they either dont know all their facts or cant correlate their thoughts into an effective argument. Again...I applaud you for maintaining your viewpoints and your debating skills without the need to resort to slander and to personally attack someone that disagrees with you.

A heartfelt thanks. I truly appreciate that - it means more than I could ever put into words.

You're welcome.....stay true to your convictions and to your ideals and opinions....not everyone will agree with them but they are you and you have the right to express and defend them without getting personally attacked for them when you have not done it to others here......keep walking the high road....it's a better route to take on the journey.

[Saint John]

"Your welcome"....it's actually you're, not your.

[Blueskies]

"Your welcome"....it's actually you're, not your.

thanks!