Fallacy

[Monker]

When the controversy surrounding vocalist Steve Augeri's alleged use of backing tapes broke, it was on my message board. There has been talk of this issue for some time previous, long before it broke out early in 2006 – but I never wanted my message boards to be the focal point of the controversy.
Over the years I have allowed the boards to be known as a place where free speech is allowed so long as personal attacks are not made.
But, being that this was such an emotive and complex issue, with so many people very passionate about their respective opinions, it was not long before all hell broke loose and I was caught very much in the middle.
I did my best to allow everyone to have their say, but with two clear and defined points of view being so far apart, the board quickly turned into a nightmare to moderate.
Safe to say that I lost a great deal of time out of my year to that board.

I really have to write a response to that...and I don't care about the consequences. Say or do what you will.

The above statement is a complete misrepresentation of the history of this forum.

Whether you all (Andrew and everybody else), want to believe it or not, this forum has NEVER been 'known' as 'a place where free speech is allowed so long as personal attacks are not made.' It was known as a place where people could say WHATEVER THEY WANTED without any sort of meaningful consequence. Hell, I tested the boundaries of that SEVERAL TIMES and was allowed to say and do ANYTHING...and so were other people.

That is the reputation this forum had in certain circles BEFORE the Augeri/tape thing. The reaction to the Augeri/tape thing CEMENTED that reputation.

Personal attacks were allowed before the Augeri/tape thing. It happened to Perry fans constantly...you can even include me in on it, if you wish. But, it is a FACT that personal attacks were allowed here. It is a FACT that most of the time they went by with NO reaction from Andrew. It is a FACT that some people got away with it with no meaningful consequence.

The Augeri/tape thing saw it escalate to entire forums being attacked, entire segments of fans being attacked. It not only happened - it became the norm. During the last half of last year, I doubt a week went by that it didn't happen. An already bad situation was injected with crack and became totaly unmangable.

THAT is the truth. This was NEVER a forum where personal attacks were not allowed - until very recently.

The sad thing is that I know most people here, probably even Andrew, will never admit to it. It is too easy to turn away from things so shameful and ugly when you can get, or have, what YOU want anyway...and none of the above really affects you in any negative way.

After REPEATEDLY asking, telling, DEMANDING Andrew do SOMETHING to get control, and then having it turn on me as if I was the cause of the problems here - and NOTHING being done about the REAL problems, there is no way, NO WAY, I am going to let such a statement go by without a response.

Andrew deserves credit for getting what seems like a bit of control here...But, don't try to rewrite history.

[fightingilliniJRNY]

You came back to say that? You say the same thing every post.

[AR]

[Rockindeano]

Seriously, running over to a "better board" with intelligent coversation was great wasn't it? So why the need to come back here and bitch about rules?

I'll tell you why. Because you mam, have been bumped to the back of the line. No one wants to hear your wimpy crap about this and that.

[Andrew]

Guys....let Monker have his say. The posts following his statement only serve to make himself feel justified in what he posted. Do me a favor and leave it alone.

As for Monker - nice to see you in such good form. Good to know that some things in life can always be relied upon.

[Monker]

Seriously, running over to a "better board" with intelligent coversation was great wasn't it? So why the need to come back here and bitch about rules?

Why are you so jealous about journeyforums.com? I truly don't get it.

I'll tell you why. Because you mam, have been bumped to the back of the line. No one wants to hear your wimpy crap about this and that.

I'm only here for this one thread...until I'm sure Andrew reads it. Like I said, keep bumping it up.

You used to be the big man on MR..

I was? Didn't notice that.

Now, you're the little old lady crossing the street, and God willing, if I had a truck, I would run you wrinkled gray ugly fucking face over in a NY minute.

I already know that, Dean.

Get the fuck outta here. Don't you have a reopened thread over there at the cesspool graveyard to bash Andrew, Jeff and myself? That sounds like so much fun.

I'm not bashing you Dean. Get over yourself already.

TRULY PATHETIC.[/quote]

What is truly pathetic is you have no real response to the original post - because you know it's the truth.

[Andrew]

I'm not having a tit for tat here. I'll close this thread if you guys are going to go at it. You've both had your say - move on now.

[Monker]

Guys....let Monker have his say. The posts following his statement only serve to make himself feel justified in what he posted. Do me a favor and leave it alone.

As for Monker - nice to see you in such good form. Good to know that some things in life can always be relied upon.

Two things:

1. I gave you credit for trying to clean things up. Funny how people miss that part.

2. I've had my say, and I know you read it. So, you can do what you want with this thread. Close it, delete it, let it be, whatever...what I wanted to say is heard.

[Andrew]

Heard loud and clear and I for one certainly appreciate the fact that you recognize that things are going so well here. I will continue to ensure that remains the case.

[RedWingFan]

Good to know that some things in life can always be relied upon.

You mean it's now death, taxes and Monker?

[ohsherrie]

Monker,

You're right in that there were times when Perry fans weren't given a fair shake on this board, but we got beyond that. At least those of us who wanted to get beyond it did. The difference between here and VH1 is that there was a human being, Andrew, who could tell whether someone was sincere or just stirring shit. If not, he would have gotten rid of me a long time ago.

As far as the Tapegate controversy, this was the only board that gave everyone the chance to have their say regardless of their stand on it. I know you weren't happy with it, but not everyone is going to be happy with fairness if it doesn't lean in their direction. At that time Andrew was being completely fair in letting everyone have their say. This board became a free for all and got a bad rep for it. It ended up not being in Augeri's favor and that alienated some people. That's not Andrew's fault. That's the way the truth came down.

I respect you Monker, but I really think you've lost your objectivity here.


Sherrie

[AR]

I think there is a lot more "intelligent" Journey conversation going on here lately. Did any other message board give first hand reports of the Florida shows? Who else had representatives shooting footage to put up on youtube?

You can thank the posters here at MR for that.

I wrote the Florida diary in a non-confrontational manner mostly, so anyone who had interest in the trip could read it - regardless of what forum you enjoy posting in.

[Monker]

As far as the Tapegate controversy, this was the only board that gave everyone the chance to have their say regardless of their stand on it. I know you weren't happy with it, but not everyone is going to be happy with fairness if it doesn't lean in their direction.

You're wrong. I never had a problem with tapegate being 'discussed'...except maybe when Andrew told people to stop - AND THEY REFUSED.

I had a problem with BT'ers constatntly being attacked, mocked, pics posted, etc....EVEN AFTER ANDREW TOLD THEM TO STOP.

I had a problem with the posts turning away from 'discussing' 'tapes' to insults and attacks to anyone who disagreed with it....and it continuing EVEN AFTER ANDREW SAID "no more personal attacks", and he said it again, and again, and again, and again...etc.

I had a problem with CONSTANTLY being under the attack of a handful of people here, pictures posted to mock me, blah, blah, blah...and Andrew somewhat encouraging it by laughing it off himself.

I had a problem with people *I* respected being driven off this forum by the antics of a few posters turning the topic of conversation away from Journey, the music, the band, etc...and towards the people making any type of discenting opinion.

I had a problem with certain posters 'blowing up' on the forum, Andrew saying he is going to do this and that if it happens again - and saying the same things over, and over, and over again to the VERY SAME PEOPLE...and nothing really being done to correct the situation.

Those are the things I repeatedly ranted about in the past...to the point ot totaly frustrating people here, including Andrew. Those are the things I was talking about in the first post in the thread. Those are the things that EARNED the reputation this forum now has. THAT is what Andrew is now trying to correct. But, he can't do it by rewriting history...Saying this forum did not allow personal attacks is NOT TRUE.

It has very little to do with the actual 'discussion' of tapes.

[AR]

As far as the Tapegate controversy, this was the only board that gave everyone the chance to have their say regardless of their stand on it. I know you weren't happy with it, but not everyone is going to be happy with fairness if it doesn't lean in their direction.

You're wrong. I never had a problem with tapegate being 'discussed'...except maybe when Andrew told people to stop - AND THEY REFUSED.

I had a problem with BT'ers constatntly being attacked, mocked, pics posted, etc....EVEN AFTER ANDREW TOLD THEM TO STOP.

I had a problem with the posts turning away from 'discussing' 'tapes' to insults and attacks to anyone who disagreed with it....and it continuing EVEN AFTER ANDREW SAID "no more personal attacks", and he said it again, and again, and again, and again...etc.

I had a problem with CONSTANTLY being under the attack of a handful of people here, pictures posted to mock me, blah, blah, blah...and Andrew somewhat encouraging it by laughing it off himself.

I had a problem with people *I* respected being driven off this forum by the antics of a few posters turning the topic of conversation away from Journey, the music, the band, etc...and towards the people making any type of discenting opinion.

I had a problem with certain posters 'blowing up' on the forum, Andrew saying he is going to do this and that if it happens again - and saying the same things over, and over, and over again to the VERY SAME PEOPLE...and nothing really being done to correct the situation.

Those are the things I repeatedly ranted about in the past...to the point ot totaly frustrating people here, including Andrew. Those are the things I was talking about in the first post in the thread. Those are the things that EARNED the reputation this forum now has. THAT is what Andrew is now trying to correct. But, he can't do it by rewriting history...Saying this forum did not allow personal attacks is NOT TRUE.

It has very little to do with the actual 'discussion' of tapes.

I
I
I
I

Not self centered or anything are you?

Start your own board and run it anyway you see fit.

[Lula]

You are one "I" short, AR .

[ohsherrie]

I'm really sorry you feel that way Monker. I wish I knew how to close the chasm but I don't.

[Monker]

I think there is a lot more "intelligent" Journey conversation going on here lately.

I have not made that argument.

My point is about 'civil' discussion...The posts that you, and other people, made that Andrew deleted in this thread do not promote civil discussion. Neither did Dean's original post, before he edited it. Neither did the original thread Andrew deleted about your FL trip.

Those are the things Andrew needs to deal with, which he never did before. THAT is why journeyforuns.com was needed - for the people who didn't want to put up with it any longer...and for those who didn't want to put up with BT, either.

I have confidence in both Sky and Frank because I have dealt them before. I know their limits and what they will allow and won't. If it's not what you, or whoever, doesn't like...I couldn't care less. Don't post there, post in both places. Post at the Annex. In the big picture, it makes absolutely no difference at all.

[RedWingFan]

As far as the Tapegate controversy, this was the only board that gave everyone the chance to have their say regardless of their stand on it. I know you weren't happy with it, but not everyone is going to be happy with fairness if it doesn't lean in their direction.

You're wrong. I never had a problem with tapegate being 'discussed'...except maybe when Andrew told people to stop - AND THEY REFUSED.

I had a problem with BT'ers constatntly being attacked, mocked, pics posted, etc....EVEN AFTER ANDREW TOLD THEM TO STOP.

I had a problem with the posts turning away from 'discussing' 'tapes' to insults and attacks to anyone who disagreed with it....and it continuing EVEN AFTER ANDREW SAID "no more personal attacks", and he said it again, and again, and again, and again...etc.

I had a problem with CONSTANTLY being under the attack of a handful of people here, pictures posted to mock me, blah, blah, blah...and Andrew somewhat encouraging it by laughing it off himself.

I had a problem with people *I* respected being driven off this forum by the antics of a few posters turning the topic of conversation away from Journey, the music, the band, etc...and towards the people making any type of discenting opinion.

I had a problem with certain posters 'blowing up' on the forum, Andrew saying he is going to do this and that if it happens again - and saying the same things over, and over, and over again to the VERY SAME PEOPLE...and nothing really being done to correct the situation.

Those are the things I repeatedly ranted about in the past...to the point ot totaly frustrating people here, including Andrew. Those are the things I was talking about in the first post in the thread. Those are the things that EARNED the reputation this forum now has. THAT is what Andrew is now trying to correct. But, he can't do it by rewriting history...Saying this forum did not allow personal attacks is NOT TRUE.

It has very little to do with the actual 'discussion' of tapes.

Monker I've enjoyed reading some of your posts in the past. I've agreed with you more times than not. But the complaining, whining and crying is getting out of hand. If you are going to continue, could you please change your Predator avatar. It's the complete opposite of you behavior. Could you maybe change it to Bill Paxton's character in the "Aliens" movie. I can't remember the character name, but he was complaining and whining all the time.
Ripley (Sigourney Weaver) made a comment about the little girl Newt surviving for months among the Aliens, and Paxton's character with the line of the movie comes back, "Well why don't we put her in charge!" That's the av for you man.

[AR]

I think there is a lot more "intelligent" Journey conversation going on here lately.

I have not made that argument.

My point is about 'civil' discussion...The posts that you, and other people, made that Andrew deleted in this thread do not promote civil discussion. Neither did Dean's original post, before he edited it. Neither did the original thread Andrew deleted about your FL trip.

Those are the things Andrew needs to deal with, which he never did before. THAT is why journeyforuns.com was needed - for the people who didn't want to put up with it any longer...and for those who didn't want to put up with BT, either.

I have confidence in both Sky and Frank because I have dealt them before. I know their limits and what they will allow and won't. If it's not what you, or whoever, doesn't like...I couldn't care less. Don't post there, post in both places. Post at the Annex. In the big picture, it makes absolutely no difference at all.

Really? I have been attacked there plenty in a personal nature. What's so civil about that? Didn't see those posts removed. The only traffic there is in one thread where it's an MR bashing session.

[Rockindeano]

You're wrong. I never had a problem with tapegate being 'discussed'...except maybe when Andrew told people to stop - AND THEY REFUSED.

Oh no? You had told me a hundred times, it was all made up so I could get my 15 minutes of fame. Don't make me dig that shit up. In fact, I will ask TNC to..he loves working for/with me.

I had a problem with the posts turning away from 'discussing' 'tapes' to insults and attacks to anyone who disagreed with it....and it continuing EVEN AFTER ANDREW SAID "no more personal attacks", and he said it again, and again, and again, and again...etc.

A volatile situation as Tapegate is going to bring about colossal emotional outbursts. Some here are so pissed they "lost to me" that they cannot bring themselves back here and face the music. that isn't because of me mind you. Blame Mr. Augeri for their red faced situation.

I had a problem with CONSTANTLY being under the attack of a handful of people here, pictures posted to mock me, blah, blah, blah...and Andrew somewhat encouraging it by laughing it off himself.

Prove it that Andrew laughed at your pics. Sir, and I use the term loosely, you are out of line. Now me, yes, I laughed my ass off at your picture. Dude, if I had a face like yours...one that looks like a Caterpillar bulldozer turned donuts on it for 50 minutes straight, I would be hiding...forget posting..I would be deep under cover.

I had a problem with people *I* respected being driven off this forum by the antics of a few posters turning the topic of conversation away from Journey, the music, the band, etc...and towards the people making any type of discenting opinion.

Well, there are many of us, who I respect, being run off strangays board...for No reason. I will call it a wash.

I had a problem with certain posters 'blowing up' on the forum, Andrew saying he is going to do this and that if it happens again - and saying the same things over, and over, and over again to the VERY SAME PEOPLE...and nothing really being done to correct the situation.

Andrew had to allow the debate to take place. You can't see through that? And why he did it?

Those are the things I repeatedly ranted about in the past...to the point ot totaly frustrating people here, including Andrew. Those are the things I was talking about in the first post in the thread. Those are the things that EARNED the reputation this forum now has. THAT is what Andrew is now trying to correct. But, he can't do it by rewriting history...Saying this forum did not allow personal attacks is NOT TRUE.

Hell, I'll take the reputation as Rock Musics BEST board anyday. And guess what? You are not a part of it.

[Saint John]

I think there is a lot more "intelligent" Journey conversation going on here lately.

I have not made that argument.

My point is about 'civil' discussion...The posts that you, and other people, made that Andrew deleted in this thread do not promote civil discussion. Neither did Dean's original post, before he edited it. Neither did the original thread Andrew deleted about your FL trip.

Those are the things Andrew needs to deal with, which he never did before. THAT is why journeyforuns.com was needed - for the people who didn't want to put up with it any longer...and for those who didn't want to put up with BT, either.

I have confidence in both Sky and Frank because I have dealt them before. I know their limits and what they will allow and won't. If it's not what you, or whoever, doesn't like...I couldn't care less. Don't post there, post in both places. Post at the Annex. In the big picture, it makes absolutely no difference at all.

Monker, I see you have close to 3500 posts. How many of them were you NOT complaining/bitching in? Were you ever cool or have you always been a complete tool like you are now?

[RedWingFan]

As far as the Tapegate controversy, this was the only board that gave everyone the chance to have their say regardless of their stand on it. I know you weren't happy with it, but not everyone is going to be happy with fairness if it doesn't lean in their direction.

You're wrong. I never had a problem with tapegate being 'discussed'...except maybe when Andrew told people to stop - AND THEY REFUSED.

I had a problem with BT'ers constatntly being attacked, mocked, pics posted, etc....EVEN AFTER ANDREW TOLD THEM TO STOP.

I had a problem with the posts turning away from 'discussing' 'tapes' to insults and attacks to anyone who disagreed with it....and it continuing EVEN AFTER ANDREW SAID "no more personal attacks", and he said it again, and again, and again, and again...etc.

I had a problem with CONSTANTLY being under the attack of a handful of people here, pictures posted to mock me, blah, blah, blah...and Andrew somewhat encouraging it by laughing it off himself.

I had a problem with people *I* respected being driven off this forum by the antics of a few posters turning the topic of conversation away from Journey, the music, the band, etc...and towards the people making any type of discenting opinion.

I had a problem with certain posters 'blowing up' on the forum, Andrew saying he is going to do this and that if it happens again - and saying the same things over, and over, and over again to the VERY SAME PEOPLE...and nothing really being done to correct the situation.

Those are the things I repeatedly ranted about in the past...to the point ot totaly frustrating people here, including Andrew. Those are the things I was talking about in the first post in the thread. Those are the things that EARNED the reputation this forum now has. THAT is what Andrew is now trying to correct. But, he can't do it by rewriting history...Saying this forum did not allow personal attacks is NOT TRUE.

It has very little to do with the actual 'discussion' of tapes.

Monker I've enjoyed reading some of your posts in the past. I've agreed with you more times than not. But the complaining, whining and crying is getting out of hand. If you are going to continue, could you please change your Predator avatar. It's the complete opposite of you behavior. Could you maybe change it to Bill Paxton's character in the "Aliens" movie. I can't remember the character name, but he was complaining and whining all the time.
Ripley (Sigourney Weaver) made a comment about the little girl Newt surviving for months among the Aliens, and Paxton's character with the line of the movie comes back, "Well why don't we put her in charge!" That's the av for you man.

Aha!!!! Your new av should be.... Private Hudson. Seriously the Predator looks silly next to your words

[Behshad]

As far as the Tapegate controversy, this was the only board that gave everyone the chance to have their say regardless of their stand on it. I know you weren't happy with it, but not everyone is going to be happy with fairness if it doesn't lean in their direction.

You're wrong. I never had a problem with tapegate being 'discussed'...except maybe when Andrew told people to stop - AND THEY REFUSED.

I had a problem with BT'ers constatntly being attacked, mocked, pics posted, etc....EVEN AFTER ANDREW TOLD THEM TO STOP.

I had a problem with the posts turning away from 'discussing' 'tapes' to insults and attacks to anyone who disagreed with it....and it continuing EVEN AFTER ANDREW SAID "no more personal attacks", and he said it again, and again, and again, and again...etc.

I had a problem with CONSTANTLY being under the attack of a handful of people here, pictures posted to mock me, blah, blah, blah...and Andrew somewhat encouraging it by laughing it off himself.

I had a problem with people *I* respected being driven off this forum by the antics of a few posters turning the topic of conversation away from Journey, the music, the band, etc...and towards the people making any type of discenting opinion.

I had a problem with certain posters 'blowing up' on the forum, Andrew saying he is going to do this and that if it happens again - and saying the same things over, and over, and over again to the VERY SAME PEOPLE...and nothing really being done to correct the situation.

Those are the things I repeatedly ranted about in the past...to the point ot totaly frustrating people here, including Andrew. Those are the things I was talking about in the first post in the thread. Those are the things that EARNED the reputation this forum now has. THAT is what Andrew is now trying to correct. But, he can't do it by rewriting history...Saying this forum did not allow personal attacks is NOT TRUE.

It has very little to do with the actual 'discussion' of tapes.

If all that you say is so true (which its not),,,, and you can find SO many things SO wrong with this forum, why do you come back!? Why do you feel the NEED to get abused!? If you come here JUST to point out flaws of this forum, then whats the point!? Shouldnt you have more fun at the other forum making fun of Jeff !?
You need the attention so bad that you're willing to get it , even if it means that it comes with some abuse.

Last but not least, your obsession with Dean is just a bit too freaky. I wonder what your life would consist of if you didnt know he existed....

[Monker]

But the complaining, whining and crying is getting out of hand. If you are going to continue, could you please change your Predator avatar. It's the complete opposite of you behavior.

Actualy, it's there because Dean once said I was "One ugly mother-fucker."...Which is an exact quote from Predator.

So, I think it absolutely fits...as did my sig, until Andrew deleted it.

[Monker]

Really? I have been attacked there plenty in a personal nature. What's so civil about that? Didn't see those posts removed. The only traffic there is in one thread where it's an MR bashing session.

Yes, really. Tell me why the post above is going to make ANY difference at all in that forum, or this one.

[Monker]

Oh no? You had told me a hundred times, it was all made up so I could get my 15 minutes of fame. Don't make me dig that shit up. In fact, I will ask TNC to..he loves working for/with me.

Well, that's a different topic.

If you can find a post where I told Andrew to stop the tapegate shit, I'd like to see the thread...it should be an interesting read.

A volatile situation as Tapegate is going to bring about colossal emotional outbursts. Some here are so pissed they "lost to me" that they cannot bring themselves back here and face the music. that isn't because of me mind you. Blame Mr. Augeri for their red faced situation.

I didn't blame you...I did not specificaly name ANYONE.

But, if you wish to take credit for ignoring Andrew's repeated requests to not make personal attacks, I'm not going to stop you.

Prove it that Andrew laughed at your pics. Sir, and I use the term loosely, you are out of line.

I did not say that. I said pics posted to mock me. The specific example is the pic with shit all over the toilet with the words, "I took a Monker.", or whatever it said. He was out of line in his comments.

I had a problem with certain posters 'blowing up' on the forum, Andrew saying he is going to do this and that if it happens again - and saying the same things over, and over, and over again to the VERY SAME PEOPLE...and nothing really being done to correct the situation.

Andrew had to allow the debate to take place. You can't see through that? And why he did it?

Blowing up on a forum isn't 'debate'. It resolved NOTHING and gave him and this forum a bad reputation.

Hell, I'll take the reputation as Rock Musics BEST board anyday. And guess what? You are not a part of it.

I'm not saying I want to be part of it any longer.

I'm saying it is incorrect to state this forum allowed open discussion as long as there were no personal attacks. This forum allowed personal attacks almost from the very begining, until very recently. That is the REAL history of this forum.

[Monker]

If all that you say is so true (which its not),,,, and you can find SO many things SO wrong with this forum, why do you come back!?

I never "left". I decided to post because I felt a need to publicly reply to the incorrect history of this forum. It's really not very complicated.

Why do you feel the NEED to get abused!?

I don't....which is why I no longer post here. But, I know when I start a thread like this one that it is going to happen - because that is how the members of this forum have decided to use it.

If you come here JUST to point out flaws of this forum, then whats the point!?

Because I practicly BEGGED Andrew to get control of this forum MONTHS ago...geez. For him to say that it has always been as it is today is NOT true. I'm not going to let a statement like that stand without a post in this forum.

Shouldnt you have more fun at the other forum making fun of Jeff !?

No, it's more fun to make fun of LV or Perry.

You need the attention so bad that you're willing to get it , even if it means that it comes with some abuse.

Wrong. Sometimes I feel the need to write something, and post it, regardless of the consequences. Gee, I would think THIS forum would know something about that.

Last but not least, your obsession with Dean is just a bit too freaky. I wonder what your life would consist of if you didnt know he existed....

Huh? I did not even mention Dean in my post(s). The truth is there were/are others acting out besides just Dean - which is why I tried to avoid specifying names. I am NOT saying Dean is the ONLY person who ignored Andrew's requests. The forum in general did.

[Andrew]

I'm saying it is incorrect to state this forum allowed open discussion as long as there were no personal attacks. This forum allowed personal attacks almost from the very begining, until very recently. That is the REAL history of this forum.

Ok Monker, you got me. Guilty as charged. This has always been an abusive forum and I can't deny it any longer.

Now, that said - and given the current happy state of things here - this should be all that is needed to be said. Be sure to drop by if you have any other outstanding issues.

Bye for now.