Poll:What do you want from Steve Perry?

[Matthew]

Where'd you learn to count? I count 6 ballads on TBF and 5 on Arrival...

Six ballads? Are you counting "It's Just The Rain" and "TBF"? Because they aren't traditional ballads in the way WYLAW most certainly is.

WYLAW
DBDOMB
SSC
WITOY
ETF
IJTR

I don't care what you call a traditional ballad, the above mentioned songs are ballads...plain and simple. A spade's a spade, whether the handle is molded plastic or hand carved bubinga.

Well..whatever...the point is that Arrival was just as ballad-heavy as TBF give or take maybe one track at best...which disproves your argument that Perry was responsible for wimpifying the band and that Journey were liberated from sentimentality by his departure.

[strangegrey]

Well..whatever...the point is that Arrival was just as ballad-heavy as TBF give or take maybe one track at best...which disproves your argument that Perry was responsible for wimpifying the band and that Journey were liberated from sentimentality by his departure.

A few points, #1 Arrival has less ballads than TBF. #2, The number of ballads on TBF v. Arrival is not the only indicator of 'issues' I have have with TBF. We can add in other songs, non-ballads, that really give *me* issues with TBF. That utterly ridiculous Baby I'm leavin you is simply too awful to be able to quantify in words to you or anyone here. In addition to that, as I've already stated, a few of the other songs lack a certain tension (between Perry and Schon) that, I for one, feel is elemental to Journey's sound. You can claim that's Schon's fault all you want, but let's be real here. Perry's grappling for power within this band is WELL documented...and Schon's playing on record, suffered as a result. Both ROR and TBF could have been alot better if the two were on equal footing, something I feel wasn't the case during those two records.

The 'equal' footing bit may not have been the case during arrival, but Neal was certainly given the space he needed to *really* play on that record...I for one think he had a leash on him during TBF...Think long and hard about who was probably holding the other end.

[Matthew]

A few points, #1 Arrival has less ballads than TBF.

One less ballad, according to your reckoning.

That utterly ridiculous Baby I'm leavin you is simply too awful to be able to quantify in words to you or anyone here.

The worst song Journey have ever recorded. I'm with you all the way on that one. But it's hardly repesentative of the "non-ballads" on the album.

In addition to that, as I've already stated, a few of the other songs lack a certain tension (between Perry and Schon) that, I for one, feel is elemental to Journey's sound.

This is true to some extent. But you argue that this creative tension returned on Arrival. Are you saying that Schon had creative tension with Augeri? Not even Schon himself claims that....

You can claim that's Schon's fault all you want, but let's be real here. Perry's grappling for power within this band is WELL documented...and Schon's playing on record, suffered as a result. Both ROR and TBF could have been alot better if the two were on equal footing, something I feel wasn't the case during those two records.

The extraordinary combination between Perry's voice and Neal's guitar was very much in evidence on ROR. I agree that this had diminished to some extent on TBF but let's get real about this: the albums Schon has recorded without Perry from the late 1980s onwards have been disappointing. In fact, TBF is a highlight compared to all those mediocre side projects, muzak solo albums and duff post-Perry Journey albums. So I can't see any evidence to suggest that Perry suffocated Schon's talent at all.

As for the equal footing? Well, Schon isn't a passive or weak-minded character. He seems pretty ruthless and relentless to me. Yet you make out he was somehow victimized by Perry. Could it also be argued that Schon compromised his own artistic ambitions for commercial gain and therefore followed Perry's direction because Perry knew better than anyone else how to bring in the big bucks?

The 'equal' footing bit may not have been the case during arrival, but Neal was certainly given the space he needed to *really* play on that record...I for one think he had a leash on him during TBF...Think long and hard about who was probably holding the other end.

Schon was always constrained in Journey and that's a key reason why his solos were so devastatingly simple and direct in the Perry era. He had to make as much impact as possible in as little time as possible. This sense of economy and melody was one of his greatest strengths. The moment he was 'let off the leash' in Journey his solos declined in quality - and now he's shredding all over the place. Sure, it's spectacular to watch but his playing isn't nearly as moving or memorable as it was when Perry was yanking the chain.

[squirt1]

Matthew- Correct! That voice singing to that guitar and answering each other back up and down the scales was the soul of Journey. Perry knows it and so does Neal. Just watch any 80's tour. Plus, look at the dedication photo at the end of the Perry / Journey DVD a few years back with Perry/Schon as one face as a tribute at the end.

[strangegrey]

A few points, #1 Arrival has less ballads than TBF.

One less ballad, according to your reckoning.

How do figure??....I count 6 ballads on TBF and 5 on arrival.

That utterly ridiculous Baby I'm leavin you is simply too awful to be able to quantify in words to you or anyone here.

The worst song Journey have ever recorded. I'm with you all the way on that one. But it's hardly repesentative of the "non-ballads" on the album.

Again, Ballads are just one issue....If you want to fixate that, fine...but there are other songs on TBF that I have 'issues' with, as already stated.

In addition to that, as I've already stated, a few of the other songs lack a certain tension (between Perry and Schon) that, I for one, feel is elemental to Journey's sound.

You argue that this creative tension returned on Arrival - but who was Schon sparring with? Schon never claimed there was any creative tension between him and Augeri.

I did NOT say creative tension. If you want to try to put words in my mouth, try harder. The tension I'm referring to, is a timbrel tension. You have Steve Perry's silky voice mated with an almost furious guitar. It's what made journey work....Most bands that meet with success have similar success. Plant/Page didn't have much 'creative' tension....but the end result of Led Zep provides this same tension that makes Led Zep work. Some of that came back with Arrival, because Schon was most likely allowed to play a bit more....and Steve replicated a small fraction of that silkiness that Perry had.

It's not an overt tension...but something under the surface. ROR is missing it to a certain extent, and it's all but gone on TBF save for a few tracks.

The extraordinary combination between Perry's voice and Neal's guitar was very much in evidence on ROR. I agree that this had diminished to some extent on TBF but let's get real about this: it's not as though Schon is on amazing form on all the records he recorded without Perry. His best work was ALWAYS with Perry even up until 1996. I can't see any evidence whatsover on all those mediocre side projects, muzak solo albums and duff post-Perry Journey albums to suggest that Perry suffocated Schon's talent in any way at all.

As for the equal footing? Well, Schon isn't a passive or weak-minded character. He seems pretty ruthless and relentless to me. Yet you make out he was somehow victimized by Perry. Could it also be argued that Schon compromised his own artistic ambitions for commercial gain and therefore followed Perry's direction because Perry knew better than anyone else how to bring in the big bucks?

Well, a few things..again, I'm not talking about the overall combination of Perry's voice/Schon's guitar. We can all agree there's something extraordinary there. But what's the underlying reason...that's where this tension comes from. It's like saying chocolate and peanut butter go together...but WHY?

As for Schon being the victim, I dunno...and you can't pretend you know either. It's been *well* documented by people far more in the know than anyone here that Schon didn't know which end was up during ROR. If he was on stable footing, he probably would have stuck up for Smitty and Ross when Perry decided to fire them. As for TBF, I dunno...again, you don't either. Perhaps there were other things at play...perhaps as you say, the need to really put together something that'll sell so he can sign a few checks to ex-wives, etc...who knows.

Schon was always constrained in Journey and that's a key reason why his solos were so devastatingly simple and direct in the Perry era. He had to make as much impact as possible in as little time as possible. This sense of economy and melody was one of his greatest strengths. The moment he was 'let off the leash' in Journey his solos declined in quality - and now he's shredding all over the place. Sure, it's spectacular to watch but his playing isn't nearly as moving or memorable as it was when Perry was yanking the chain.

Oh Puleaze, Not many guys out there, from a guitarist's point of view, can show real knowledge of Schon's work better than I (and I know I sound like a complete pompous douche nozzle by even saying that here)...but I've been playing for well over 20 years and I've intensely studied schon's playing for pretty much all of it. I can show you plenty of examples where Perry isn't involved in something Neal does, and his sense of melody and economy come ringing through. Perry's NOT the reason why Schon is one of the best melodic guitarists on the planet. Far from it...I mean, hell, you wanna go off the deep end and credit Perry with inventing the telephone or building the world's first superconductor, fine...but you can not credit him with something as Divinely given a talent as Schon's sense of melody. I won't buy it!

[Matthew]

How do figure??....I count 6 ballads on TBF and 5 on arrival.

That's why I said Arrival had one less ballad.

Again, Ballads are just one issue....If you want to fixate that, fine...but there are other songs on TBF that I have 'issues' with, as already stated.

I wasn't fixating on the ballads. We were talking about the truly awful reggae number.

Well, a few things..again, I'm not talking about the overall combination of Perry's voice/Schon's guitar. We can all agree there's something extraordinary there. But what's the underlying reason...that's where this tension comes from. It's like saying chocolate and peanut butter go together...but WHY?

I agree - it's hard to explain or describe why Perry and Schon worked so unbelievably well together.

As for Schon being the victim, I dunno...and you can't pretend you know either. It's been *well* documented by people far more in the know than anyone here that Schon didn't know which end was up during ROR.

And it's been well-documentated that Schon loves money and Perry makes a ton of it.

Oh Puleaze, Not many guys out there, from a guitarist's point of view, can show real knowledge of Schon's work better than I (and I know I sound like a complete pompous douche nozzle by even saying that here)...but I've been playing for well over 20 years and I've intensely studied schon's playing for pretty much all of it. I can show you plenty of examples where Perry isn't involved in something Neal does, and his sense of melody and economy come ringing through. Perry's NOT the reason why Schon is one of the best melodic guitarists on the planet. Far from it...I mean, hell, you wanna go off the deep end and credit Perry with inventing the telephone or building the world's first superconductor, fine...but you can not credit him with something as Divinely given a talent as Schon's sense of melody. I won't buy it!

Of course I'm not claiming that Perry gave Schon his extraordinary talent. Nor was I saying that melody deserted Schon when he wasn't working with Perry. But I think it's reasonable to say that his relationship with Perry inspired him to record his best work. And the same is true of Perry. He never reached the same heights without Schon.

Also, Strangegrey - you must admit that Neal's playing has lost some of its economy recently - especially live. Sure, I can understand why he would want to develop or change his style after all these years but the new frenetic style - brilliant and awe-inspiring as it is - is less memorable than his classic work from the 70s and 80s.

[Matthew]

That voice singing to that guitar and answering each other back up and down the scales was the soul of Journey. Perry knows it and so does Neal.

So true, Squirt. And that's why I don't think it's Loonish to say that Journey lost their soul when Perry left. It's like Schon is now going up and down the scales in a void...

Sure, JSS brings incredible energy and charisma to the group. But can his relationship with Schon be described as 'soulful'? There's a sense of fun and camaraderie between them...but musically there is a superficiality, perhaps. We'll see if there's some depth there with the new album, I guess.

[ohsosoto]

This board does nothing for me anylonger.

stop it ,, nothing has changed,, just less to talk about , we have 4 or 5 new posters and they are cool,, the old regulars that came back are cool... so where are you?!

well, if journey would give up something new, we would have something new to chat about.

[Matthew]

This board does nothing for me anylonger.

stop it ,, nothing has changed,, just less to talk about , we have 4 or 5 new posters and they are cool,, the old regulars that came back are cool... so where are you?!

well, if journey would give up something new, we would have something new to chat about.

Something new to talk about? You're making me nervous...

[ohsosoto]

This board does nothing for me anylonger.

stop it ,, nothing has changed,, just less to talk about , we have 4 or 5 new posters and they are cool,, the old regulars that came back are cool... so where are you?!

well, if journey would give up something new, we would have something new to chat about.

Something new to talk about? You're making me nervous...

i know....

[Crazie Scarab]

[quote="RockinDeano"]This board does nothing for me anylonger, but I can't read this crap and let it go by unchecked.
quote]

Later, limpdick!

[ohsosoto]

Even WCTNGOF? Come on Red...you know you secretly love that one.

They should have given that song to REO.

NIG - I take it you're not a fan of mid-80s REO either.

No, Hi Infidelity and earlier.

hey, reo is coming to our local fair this summer. yea!

[FinnFreak]

Dunno, I mean, shit...the songs on Arrival are just better....It might not be perry singing them, but to me that have that classic journey tension....1/2 the songs on TBF do as well...but the other half just sound like FTLOSM II to me...

I guess this is another example of differences in taste and differences in what means Journey to people. To me Arrival is a good melodic rock album in the Journey vein, but the vocals are just "good but not great" so it just isn't quite Journey calibre.

I have to agree with Sherrie here...Journey's music is a matter of tastes,but maybe that's what's makes us all such an interesting fanbase.

As for TBF,I strongly believe that it's one of Journey's masterpieces.I truly love Arrival,it IS a great melodic album,but after something as majestic as TBF it sounds like a sweet breeze after an F4 tornado.At least that's how I hear it.

And there ya go.

Sums it up for me: TBF is simply beautiful.

heh... and - IJTR is one of my favorite tracks off that album...

[*Laura]

I notice no one voted for a Christmas album...

That would be an excellent project,imo.I imagine SP would do a great job on some traditional Christmas carols,maybe even making them rock a little.
It would suit his FTLOSM-like quality voice,not to mention that he could put an extra-soulfulness in any Christmas song out there.

I bet it would get some nice airplay during the Holidays..Hell,I would play those songs in the middle of the Summer too!

My,I would just love to hear something like that.
Plus,a Christmas album wouldn't require any touring,right?

[Matthew]

I notice no one voted for a Christmas album...

That would be an excellent project,imo.I imagine SP would do a great job on some traditional Christmas carols,maybe even making them rock a little.
It would suit his FTLOSM-like quality voice,not to mention that he could put an extra-soulfulness in any Christmas song out there.

I bet it would get some nice airplay during the Holidays..Hell,I would play those songs in the middle of the Summer too!

My,I would just love to hear something like that.
Plus,a Christmas album wouldn't require any touring,right?

No Shania! Say it isn't so! A Xmas album from the Voice would be my worst nightmare. It would also confirm the opinion of most critics that the guy is a cheesy crooner and not a legendary genius.

[*Laura]

I notice no one voted for a Christmas album...

That would be an excellent project,imo.I imagine SP would do a great job on some traditional Christmas carols,maybe even making them rock a little.
It would suit his FTLOSM-like quality voice,not to mention that he could put an extra-soulfulness in any Christmas song out there.

I bet it would get some nice airplay during the Holidays..Hell,I would play those songs in the middle of the Summer too!

My,I would just love to hear something like that.
Plus,a Christmas album wouldn't require any touring,right?

No Shania! Say it isn't so! A Xmas album from the Voice would be my worst nightmare. It would also confirm the opinion of most critics that the guy is a cheesy crooner and not a legendary genius.

Cheesy crooner? Why?There are some really beautiful Christmas songs out there,sentimental and melodic...He would re-arrange them beautifully.
If you like "It's Just The Rain" or "When I Think Of You" from TBF,then you might love a Perry style Christmas song as well.

But,hey,this is just MY wish.My Christmas wish,if you wish.


Edit -- Critics? The're just a bunch of yapping yentas who never liked Perry or Journey anyway.

[Matthew]

Cheesy crooner? Why?There are some really beautiful Christmas songs out there,sentimental and melodic...He would re-arrange them beautifully.
If you like "It's Just The Rain" or "When I Think Of You" from TBF,then you might love a Perry style Christmas song as well.

Sorry - I was having visions of the Voice wearing a Santa hat next to a log fire and recording tracks with jingle bells and school choirs in the background. I guess the IJTR and TBF treatment could work though....

Edit -- Critics? The're just a bunch of yapping yentas who never liked Perry or Journey anyway.

Don't get me wrong Shania. The opinions of all those dopes at Rolling Stone have never affected my appreciation of Perry's gifts. But there is a part of me that would love to see Perry get the recognition and respect he deserves. And I reckon Perry himself would love to see that too. I'm tired of acts like the Clash getting all the accolades year after year...

I mean...if Neil Diamond - of all people - can finally win the critics over and enjoy a commercial revival in his 60s then there's no reason why the Voice can't too.

[*Laura]

Sorry - I was having visions of the Voice wearing a Santa hat next to a log fire and recording tracks with jingle bells and school choirs in the background. I guess the IJTR and TBF treatment could work though....

The first part... Actually,it's a nice comforting vision.I like it.

Don't get me wrong Shania. The opinions of all those dopes at Rolling Stone have never affected my appreciation of Perry's gifts. But there is a part of me that would love to see Perry get the recognition and respect he deserves. And I reckon Perry himself would love to see that too. I'm tired of acts like the Clash getting all the accolades year after year...

I mean...if Neil Diamond - of all people - can finally win the critics over and enjoy a commercial revival in his 60s then there's no reason why the Voice can't too.

Rolling Stone is the crappiest media source out there,so I don't even bother including them in the Critics category.
It was an overall Journey/Perry dissing that went on since they stepped foot in the charts.They were too good for the boneheads (some wouldn't even go to see a Journey show and wrote reviews out of their asses )
Success brought them all that malicious envy and for some reason I believe that not much has changed since.

Perry IS highly respected,not by the critics,but by all those who know and understand what he stands for...The musicians and the fans.

Everything is upside down in this world,Matthew...That's why acts like The Clash get the accolades.
Can't you see the valuable things/people are belittled while the low quality products/people are ruling the business? Sad.

[FinnFreak]

Edit -- Critics? The're just a bunch of yapping yentas who never liked Perry or Journey anyway.

Really - who cares about the critics..? The numbers (of fans) don't lie.


Not that sure about holiday-themed albums though... they just aren't for everyone... Easter Albums are way underrated... and for a good reason.


John -

[Matthew]

Everything is upside down in this world,Matthew...That's why acts like The Clash get the accolades.
Can't you see the valuable things/people are belittled while the low quality products/people are ruling the business? Sad.

Yes I do, Shania - but equally that isn't always true. There are numerous high-quality rock acts who have strong critical and commercial reputations: artists such as Queen, Aerosmith and Van Halen have long had a 'credibility' Journey have never achieved. Even Boston are treated with more respect.

Also Shania - you must have felt motivated at least to some extent by the fact that the magazine and publishing industries have ignored Perry over the years. You are after all the author of a book on Perry - so you can't be entirely indifferent to whether or not Perry gets written about in an admiring and substantial way. Yes, you're a fan - but you're also a critic now too.

[*Laura]

Everything is upside down in this world,Matthew...That's why acts like The Clash get the accolades.
Can't you see the valuable things/people are belittled while the low quality products/people are ruling the business? Sad.

Yes I do, Shania - but equally that isn't always true. There are numerous high-quality rock acts who have strong critical and commercial reputations: artists such as Queen, Aerosmith and Van Halen have long had a 'credibility' Journey have never achieved. Even Boston are treated with more respect.

Also Shania - you must have felt motivated at least to some extent by the fact that the magazine and publishing industries have ignored Perry over the years. You are after all the author of a book on Perry - so you can't be entirely indifferent to whether or not Perry gets written about in an admiring and substantial way. Yes, you're a fan - but you're also a critic now too.

I agree with the first part.I was expressing a general view on the way good and bad products/people/bands/whatever are perceived today.
Everything lacks in quality,so maybe that's why those act you have mentioned are standing out today.
There's a lot of business politics involved in the ranking,too.

Yes,I do care how critics write about Perry,and it maddens me to see him put down by some people who either just love to be critical and get attention, either have no idea what they are talking about.
It does upset me,but it's not a Loon-like reaction.I just think it's not fair,because Perry is way too gifted and he worked his ass off for as long he was capabale of doing it.

I'm a critic,but I never ever wrote a review about a band or a singer if I didn't do my homework and understood my subject.
In Perry's case I guess I'm a fan-critic combo,aware of his genius,but not blinded.Also respectful,hence the tone of my book.

[NoMoreTails]

Sure, JSS brings incredible energy and charisma to the group. But can his relationship with Schon be described as 'soulful'? There's a sense of fun and camaraderie between them...but musically there is a superficiality, perhaps. We'll see if there's some depth there with the new album, I guess.

It remains to be seen how "Journey" new material with JSS will be, but evidently you haven't heard Soul Sirkus as Soul Goes On and Coming Home have as much "soul" as anything Schon and Perry ever did, in fact I'd say more than anything Journey ever did.

[Deb]

Sure, JSS brings incredible energy and charisma to the group. But can his relationship with Schon be described as 'soulful'? There's a sense of fun and camaraderie between them...but musically there is a superficiality, perhaps. We'll see if there's some depth there with the new album, I guess.

It remains to be seen how "Journey" new material with JSS will be, but evidently you haven't heard Soul Sirkus as Soul Goes On and Coming Home have as much "soul" as anything Schon and Perry ever did, in fact I'd say more than anything Journey ever did.

Matt, I agree with NMT here, especially on Coming Home, JSS was definately channelling Perry on that one. Loved it first time I heard it. Have a listen to that one.

[Red13JoePa]

Where'd you learn to count? I count 6 ballads on TBF and 5 on Arrival...

Six ballads? Are you counting "It's Just The Rain" and "TBF"? Because they aren't traditional ballads in the way WYLAW most certainly is.

And, here's the kicker....Neal's playing lacks that fire...the tension between Perry and Neal isn't there.

I agree that Schon's work on that album lacked the fire and the quality of the previous Journey albums. But that's his responsibility not Perry's.

In fact, I'd go as far as to say that the last solo Schon played on record which blew me away was...Be Good To Yourself. I haven't heard anything as good as that since...with Perry or without.

However he's still on fire in concert....even though he has lost some of the simplicity and emotion he used to have.

2 things here.
I DO absolutely count It's Just The Rain amongst the ballads. And like other needless and superfluous things on Trial By Fire (the melodramatic and totally out of place strings that open One More, the jungle sounds opening Colors Of The Spirit) the damn rain sounds at the end of IJTR almost wreck the song and make it over-the-top.


The other thing is, I agree with your last point and would like to see Neal reduce some of the extended shredding in certain solos now.

[NealIsGod]

The other thing is, I agree with your last point and would like to see Neal reduce some of the extended shredding in certain solos now.

Blasphemer.

[Matthew]

evidently you haven't heard Soul Sirkus as Soul Goes On and Coming Home have as much "soul" as anything Schon and Perry ever did, in fact I'd say more than anything Journey ever did.

I've heard these tracks - and I like them. But to say that these songs are more soulful than anything Schon and Perry ever did seems like wild praise to me.

[Matthew]

And like other needless and superfluous things on Trial By Fire (the melodramatic and totally out of place strings that open One More, the jungle sounds opening Colors Of The Spirit) the damn rain sounds at the end of IJTR almost wreck the song and make it over-the-top.

I love those damn rain sounds at the end of IJTR and at the start of TBF! The jungle/pan pipe thing on COTS is lame, though.

[Matthew]

Sure, JSS brings incredible energy and charisma to the group. But can his relationship with Schon be described as 'soulful'? There's a sense of fun and camaraderie between them...but musically there is a superficiality, perhaps. We'll see if there's some depth there with the new album, I guess.

It remains to be seen how "Journey" new material with JSS will be, but evidently you haven't heard Soul Sirkus as Soul Goes On and Coming Home have as much "soul" as anything Schon and Perry ever did, in fact I'd say more than anything Journey ever did.

Matt, I agree with NMT here, especially on Coming Home, JSS was definately channelling Perry on that one. Loved it first time I heard it. Have a listen to that one.

Blasphemer!

[*Laura]

Blasphemer.

That word coming out of your avatar. Priceless.

[Red13JoePa]

evidently you haven't heard Soul Sirkus as Soul Goes On and Coming Home have as much "soul" as anything Schon and Perry ever did, in fact I'd say more than anything Journey ever did.

I've heard these tracks - and I like them. But to say that these songs are more soulful than anything Schon and Perry ever did seems like wild praise to me.

Agree with that deserter, NMT here.
Soul Goes On off WorldPlay HAS that soul feeling/vibe. God, what a beauty that song is musically. If it weren't a ballad I'd almost say I like it.
Schon/Perry had this going on on Don't Be Down On Me, Baby, too on TBF.

But while everything in and of itself sounds incredible on TBF, which is to say all the players, most of it didn't sound together to me, the songs didn't sound as together as they did on Arrival for the most part.