Moderator: Andrew
jrnychick wrote:Sorry Matthew--but I would basically re-do ROR. That album was way too ballad-heavy, and sounded too much like a Perry solo record. Too much pop, drum machine, and keyboard. Not enough Neal, and there was no rock and roll attitude.
Matthew wrote:jrnychick wrote:Sorry Matthew--but I would basically re-do ROR. That album was way too ballad-heavy, and sounded too much like a Perry solo record. Too much pop, drum machine, and keyboard. Not enough Neal, and there was no rock and roll attitude.
As Red said...there are only two ballads on that record...far fewer than on some other Journey records...but yes, it doesn't have much in the way of rock and roll attitude.
But does every Journey record have to have the same 'attitude' and style?
ROR was a smooth but melancholic record. Frontiers was driving and aggressive, almost metal at times. Escape was grandiose, epic rock music at its finest. Departure had a strong bluesy feel about it.
The point is that Journey pushed their sound as much as possible between Departure and ROR. They took risks in those days. Fyre was absolutely right when he said that Journey BADLY need to rediscover that same spirit now and so do we as fans. More than anything else I want to be surprised by Journey again.
As for Deen - well, I disagree with Fyre about him sticking to the drumming. "A Better Life" was by far the best track on Generations and it would be a shame if he wasn't used on the next album - as long as he can develop more of his own sound rather than simply imitating Perry, which he's very good at in concert.
heardonthestreet wrote:
I really didn't think that Deen sounded like Perry, Matt. He sounded like a vocalist with a very strong voice and great range. He didn't invoke any perryisms that I recall but he was able to really get lost in the song as Perry often did.
Matthew wrote:jrnychick wrote:Sorry Matthew--but I would basically re-do ROR. That album was way too ballad-heavy, and sounded too much like a Perry solo record. Too much pop, drum machine, and keyboard. Not enough Neal, and there was no rock and roll attitude.
As for Deen - well, I disagree with Fyre about him sticking to the drumming. "A Better Life" was by far the best track on Generations and it would be a shame if he wasn't used on the next album - as long as he can develop more of his own sound rather than simply imitating Perry, which he's very good at in concert.
FyreWyngz wrote:Is "A Better Life" the best track because of Deen's vocals? I don't think so. There's nothing about Deen's vocals on that or any other of his tracks that make me go "WOW!" In fact, his vocals come across as little more than imitations of Perry. NOT THAT THERE'S ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT. The fact of the matter is his sounding like Perry is part of the mass appeal to the general audience. Everyone will agree that Deen's "Mother, Father" is the bomb HOWEVER it's the bomb because, "He sounds just like Perry." While this makes me gag I can understand and appreciate how it appeals.
jrnyman28 wrote:I would like Neal to return to a more soulful playing...lately his solos are just blurs. He is trying to rock, but losing his "identity".
I still think a concept CD could be VERY cool because it would bring more unique lyrical compositions than the Love You songs they have been stuck in. They could also branch out and have a couple dark, angry, brooding, whatever, songs and still end the "story" with a positive spin which Journey is known for.
conversationpc wrote:FyreWyngz wrote:Is "A Better Life" the best track because of Deen's vocals? I don't think so. There's nothing about Deen's vocals on that or any other of his tracks that make me go "WOW!" In fact, his vocals come across as little more than imitations of Perry. NOT THAT THERE'S ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT. The fact of the matter is his sounding like Perry is part of the mass appeal to the general audience. Everyone will agree that Deen's "Mother, Father" is the bomb HOWEVER it's the bomb because, "He sounds just like Perry." While this makes me gag I can understand and appreciate how it appeals.
I've never thought that Deen sounds just like Perry at all. In fact, I thought Augeri sounded a whole lot more like Perry and that Deen sounded much different than Perry, more raspy and not as much range on the lower end stuff.
jrnyman28 wrote:They could also branch out and have a couple dark, angry, brooding, whatever, songs and still end the "story" with a positive spin which Journey is known for.
ohsherrie wrote:Deen's a good singer. He's a better singer than Augeri, but he's not a Perry or a Soto.
Matthew wrote:ohsherrie wrote:Deen's a good singer. He's a better singer than Augeri, but he's not a Perry or a Soto.
Deen's still a superior AOR singer, though, don't you think, Sherrie? In fact, on the basis of A Better Life alone I'd say he's better than most singers in the genre - such as Kelly Keagy of Night Ranger or anyone in Styx other than DDY or even Kevin Cronin of REO. Or am I getting carried away here?
ohsherrie wrote:Matthew wrote:ohsherrie wrote:Deen's a good singer. He's a better singer than Augeri, but he's not a Perry or a Soto.
Deen's still a superior AOR singer, though, don't you think, Sherrie? In fact, on the basis of A Better Life alone I'd say he's better than most singers in the genre - such as Kelly Keagy of Night Ranger or anyone in Styx other than DDY or even Kevin Cronin of REO. Or am I getting carried away here?
I'd say you're drifting a bit Matt,but everyone has a right to their own opinion. Deen is without a doubt as good as most of the others, but I think Kevin Cronin and Tommy Shaw have him beat. That's JMO though.
ohsherrie wrote:Matthew wrote:ohsherrie wrote:Deen's a good singer. He's a better singer than Augeri, but he's not a Perry or a Soto.
Deen's still a superior AOR singer, though, don't you think, Sherrie? In fact, on the basis of A Better Life alone I'd say he's better than most singers in the genre - such as Kelly Keagy of Night Ranger or anyone in Styx other than DDY or even Kevin Cronin of REO. Or am I getting carried away here?
I'd say you're drifting a bit Matt,but everyone has a right to their own opinion. Deen is without a doubt as good as most of the others, but I think Kevin Cronin and Tommy Shaw have him beat. That's JMO though.
Matthew wrote:ohsherrie wrote:Matthew wrote:ohsherrie wrote:Deen's a good singer. He's a better singer than Augeri, but he's not a Perry or a Soto.
Deen's still a superior AOR singer, though, don't you think, Sherrie? In fact, on the basis of A Better Life alone I'd say he's better than most singers in the genre - such as Kelly Keagy of Night Ranger or anyone in Styx other than DDY or even Kevin Cronin of REO. Or am I getting carried away here?
I'd say you're drifting a bit Matt,but everyone has a right to their own opinion. Deen is without a doubt as good as most of the others, but I think Kevin Cronin and Tommy Shaw have him beat. That's JMO though.
The appeal of Tommy Shaw is completely beyond me - but yes, you're right about Cronin. Although his voice hasn't got that much depth to it, Cronin is one of the most distinctive vocalists in melodic rock...whereas Deen perhaps is a little more generic (plus he's only recorded one song!). Still...I'd rather listen to Deen singing..but maybe that just means I've got crap taste.
Matthew wrote:ohsherrie wrote:Matthew wrote:ohsherrie wrote:Deen's a good singer. He's a better singer than Augeri, but he's not a Perry or a Soto.
Deen's still a superior AOR singer, though, don't you think, Sherrie? In fact, on the basis of A Better Life alone I'd say he's better than most singers in the genre - such as Kelly Keagy of Night Ranger or anyone in Styx other than DDY or even Kevin Cronin of REO. Or am I getting carried away here?
I'd say you're drifting a bit Matt,but everyone has a right to their own opinion. Deen is without a doubt as good as most of the others, but I think Kevin Cronin and Tommy Shaw have him beat. That's JMO though.
The appeal of Tommy Shaw is completely beyond me - but yes, you're right about Cronin. Although his voice hasn't got that much depth to it, Cronin is one of the most distinctive vocalists in melodic rock...whereas Deen perhaps is a little more generic (plus he's only recorded one song!). Still...I'd rather listen to Deen singing..but maybe that just means I've got crap taste.
ohsherrie wrote:Matthew wrote:ohsherrie wrote:Matthew wrote:ohsherrie wrote:Deen's a good singer. He's a better singer than Augeri, but he's not a Perry or a Soto.
Deen's still a superior AOR singer, though, don't you think, Sherrie? In fact, on the basis of A Better Life alone I'd say he's better than most singers in the genre - such as Kelly Keagy of Night Ranger or anyone in Styx other than DDY or even Kevin Cronin of REO. Or am I getting carried away here?
I'd say you're drifting a bit Matt,but everyone has a right to their own opinion. Deen is without a doubt as good as most of the others, but I think Kevin Cronin and Tommy Shaw have him beat. That's JMO though.
The appeal of Tommy Shaw is completely beyond me - but yes, you're right about Cronin. Although his voice hasn't got that much depth to it, Cronin is one of the most distinctive vocalists in melodic rock...whereas Deen perhaps is a little more generic (plus he's only recorded one song!). Still...I'd rather listen to Deen singing..but maybe that just means I've got crap taste.
Interesting that you used the word generic to describe Deen's voice. That's exactly the word I used to describe the song A Better Life the first time I heard it.
Matthew wrote:ohsherrie wrote:
Interesting that you used the word generic to describe Deen's voice. That's exactly the word I used to describe the song A Better Life the first time I heard it.
Yes - but I reckon Deen's voice has a quality to it that just lifts the song above the norm. I mean...take "Believe In Me" by JSS or the entire back catalogue of Talisman. All very generic too, don't you think?
Still...I guess it's hard for any singer or band to not sound generic unless they have in some way invented or shaped the genre in the first place. No-one could argue that - say- Boston's first album was generic because nobody had recorded an album with that style and approach before. Same with the other orginators...including classic Journey.
sindee67 wrote:
Like I said earlier in this thread, PASSION..Steve Perry had PASSION, Cronin has passion, Lennon had passion...SING IT LIKE YOU MEAN IT!
You have to feel the lyrics, be a part of the music. I think Soto has that, I think Deen has that. PASSION is your answer.
ohsherrie wrote:Matthew wrote:ohsherrie wrote:
Interesting that you used the word generic to describe Deen's voice. That's exactly the word I used to describe the song A Better Life the first time I heard it.
Yes - but I reckon Deen's voice has a quality to it that just lifts the song above the norm. I mean...take "Believe In Me" by JSS or the entire back catalogue of Talisman. All very generic too, don't you think?
Still...I guess it's hard for any singer or band to not sound generic unless they have in some way invented or shaped the genre in the first place. No-one could argue that - say- Boston's first album was generic because nobody had recorded an album with that style and approach before. Same with the other orginators...including classic Journey.
To me generic means indistinct, so I guess that's sort of the same thing you're saying. A Better Life sounded to me like a general example of a melodic rock song that such as Journey might have done. In fact that's what Arrival sounds like to me too. It's enjoyable, but not distinctive.
Matthew wrote:
But Sherrie - we could say that about any number of Journey songs. TBF sounds like a melodic rock album done in Journey's typical style. But it was the vocals and the guitar which made it distinctive. I totally agree with you about Arrival - other than Neal's guitar it was a dime-a-dozen AOR album. Whereas "A Better Life" was - for me anyway - the first time since TBF that Journey managed to haul themselves above the fray again. No, not to the Olympian heights of the Perry days but a huge improvement nonetheless. And the reason? Deen Castronovo!
Matthew wrote:sindee67 wrote:
Like I said earlier in this thread, PASSION..Steve Perry had PASSION, Cronin has passion, Lennon had passion...SING IT LIKE YOU MEAN IT!
You have to feel the lyrics, be a part of the music. I think Soto has that, I think Deen has that. PASSION is your answer.
Sure - but a performer needs talent too. There were plenty of punk bands out there who sang it like they meant it but you wouldn't want to be anywhere near a speaker when they did.
ohsherrie wrote:I guess this is one of those rare times when you and I just don't hear it the same way Matt. I like Deen and think he's a very good singer. I also think A Better Life is a good song, but neither the singer nor the song has that undefinable something that sets them apart from the pack for me.
sindee67 wrote:Matthew wrote:sindee67 wrote:
Like I said earlier in this thread, PASSION..Steve Perry had PASSION, Cronin has passion, Lennon had passion...SING IT LIKE YOU MEAN IT!
You have to feel the lyrics, be a part of the music. I think Soto has that, I think Deen has that. PASSION is your answer.
Sure - but a performer needs talent too. There were plenty of punk bands out there who sang it like they meant it but you wouldn't want to be anywhere near a speaker when they did.
You got me there, I forgot about YOKO ONO's album..Oh, Lord, flashbacks!!! THANKS!
Matthew wrote:ohsherrie wrote:I guess this is one of those rare times when you and I just don't hear it the same way Matt. I like Deen and think he's a very good singer. I also think A Better Life is a good song, but neither the singer nor the song has that undefinable something that sets them apart from the pack for me.
Sherrie - at the risk of falling out completely - I have to say I feel much the same way about JSS. He's a superb frontman in concert and I love the way he posts here and he really deserves a big break - but does he have that undefinable something that truly sets him apart from other talented and hard-working performers in the genre? Well, I guess he does to some extent - but no more or less than Deen, to my ears anyway.
Let's be honest though...there are only about five or six singers who are really set apart from the pack in melodic rock. Perry, Lou Gramm, Freddie Mercury, Kevin Cronin, Brad Delp, Peter Cetera....maybe a couple of others. These guys are the true originals. Even Jimi Jamison is borderline...much as I love his voice.
ohsherrie wrote:Matthew wrote:ohsherrie wrote:I guess this is one of those rare times when you and I just don't hear it the same way Matt. I like Deen and think he's a very good singer. I also think A Better Life is a good song, but neither the singer nor the song has that undefinable something that sets them apart from the pack for me.
Sherrie - at the risk of falling out completely - I have to say I feel much the same way about JSS. He's a superb frontman in concert and I love the way he posts here and he really deserves a big break - but does he have that undefinable something that truly sets him apart from other talented and hard-working performers in the genre? Well, I guess he does to some extent - but no more or less than Deen, to my ears anyway.
Let's be honest though...there are only about five or six singers who are really set apart from the pack in melodic rock. Perry, Lou Gramm, Freddie Mercury, Kevin Cronin, Brad Delp, Peter Cetera....maybe a couple of others. These guys are the true originals. Even Jimi Jamison is borderline...much as I love his voice.
No falling out here Matt. You're right. There can only be a relatively few true standout voices by the very definition of the word. Jeff does a great job on the classics. Much better, IMO, than his immediate predecessor, but whether the new album will come up to the standard of quality that I expect from Journey remains to be seen. I have more hope for them than I've had for 10 years. Will they ever sound like they did with Perry again? Nope, but I'd rather have a whole new distinctively Journey sound than an imitation Perry sound that doesn't quite make it.
Matthew wrote:ohsherrie wrote:Matthew wrote:ohsherrie wrote:I guess this is one of those rare times when you and I just don't hear it the same way Matt. I like Deen and think he's a very good singer. I also think A Better Life is a good song, but neither the singer nor the song has that undefinable something that sets them apart from the pack for me.
Sherrie - at the risk of falling out completely - I have to say I feel much the same way about JSS. He's a superb frontman in concert and I love the way he posts here and he really deserves a big break - but does he have that undefinable something that truly sets him apart from other talented and hard-working performers in the genre? Well, I guess he does to some extent - but no more or less than Deen, to my ears anyway.
Let's be honest though...there are only about five or six singers who are really set apart from the pack in melodic rock. Perry, Lou Gramm, Freddie Mercury, Kevin Cronin, Brad Delp, Peter Cetera....maybe a couple of others. These guys are the true originals. Even Jimi Jamison is borderline...much as I love his voice.
No falling out here Matt. You're right. There can only be a relatively few true standout voices by the very definition of the word. Jeff does a great job on the classics. Much better, IMO, than his immediate predecessor, but whether the new album will come up to the standard of quality that I expect from Journey remains to be seen. I have more hope for them than I've had for 10 years. Will they ever sound like they did with Perry again? Nope, but I'd rather have a whole new distinctively Journey sound than an imitation Perry sound that doesn't quite make it.
I agree with every word of that post, Sherrie!
Matthew wrote:ohsherrie wrote:Matthew wrote:ohsherrie wrote:I guess this is one of those rare times when you and I just don't hear it the same way Matt. I like Deen and think he's a very good singer. I also think A Better Life is a good song, but neither the singer nor the song has that undefinable something that sets them apart from the pack for me.
Sherrie - at the risk of falling out completely - I have to say I feel much the same way about JSS. He's a superb frontman in concert and I love the way he posts here and he really deserves a big break - but does he have that undefinable something that truly sets him apart from other talented and hard-working performers in the genre? Well, I guess he does to some extent - but no more or less than Deen, to my ears anyway.
Let's be honest though...there are only about five or six singers who are really set apart from the pack in melodic rock. Perry, Lou Gramm, Freddie Mercury, Kevin Cronin, Brad Delp, Peter Cetera....maybe a couple of others. These guys are the true originals. Even Jimi Jamison is borderline...much as I love his voice.
No falling out here Matt. You're right. There can only be a relatively few true standout voices by the very definition of the word. Jeff does a great job on the classics. Much better, IMO, than his immediate predecessor, but whether the new album will come up to the standard of quality that I expect from Journey remains to be seen. I have more hope for them than I've had for 10 years. Will they ever sound like they did with Perry again? Nope, but I'd rather have a whole new distinctively Journey sound than an imitation Perry sound that doesn't quite make it.
I agree with every word of that post, Sherrie!
strungout wrote: With ya on "A Better Life" Matt, definately my favorite post Perry Journey track.......so far.![]()
ohsherrie wrote:To me the standout song on Generations is Out Of Harms Way. Not because the vocals were distinctive but because of the overall sound of it combined with the message. It just grabbed me.
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