OT: The sad state of rock...

[strangegrey]

Hey folks, I've been absent from forum life for a while...impending finals, grad school aps, job hunting and a litany of odd-job, around the house BS that the wife has thrust on me has really prevented me from having a life...at all.

But this morning, I felt it apropriate to jump in here and say something that I've been feeling for quite some time....but given the current front page news on MR.com, I couldn't help but voice...and I'm wondering if anyone else feels it too?

-------------

So this morning, I pop onto the site...to see the first two news bites pertain to Ratt and that Cindarella spin-off band. I wouldn't exactly characterize Ratt and off-shoots as anything ground breaking...but it resonates the fact that Rock (as we know and love...i.e. pre-Nirvana) has never really been healthy. When on any given day, you look at front page MR.com news and there's at least one or two stories, every day, outlining someone else getting fired from a band, or quiting a band...or refusing to reunite...or band members saying bad things about other band members as a result of the efforts to reunite...etc..etc..you get my drift. It seems to me, things are just funky...and have never been right. Remember the Night Ranger news? Why is it that no one can fucking get it straight about whether Watson was fired or quit? It's either one or the other!?!! This sounds as bad as when Sammy left/got fired from VH in 96. What are these people? Children?

Hell, in the past 6 months or so, we read:

* This recent bullshit with Ratt
* Similar bullshit with Naked Beggars
* More GnR crap (is there ever *not* GnR crap?)
* Jeff Watson quits/gets fired from Night Ranger
* TNT loses a singer
* EVH goes into rehab, reunion scrapped...yet STILL has a need to oneup sammy with this NASCAR horsecrap...
* Rumors of Mik Brown leaving Dokken (it's not really Dokken at this point ANYWAY!)
* Vito vs Mike Tramp soap Opera crap...
* Survivor changes singers AGAIN.
* Bon Jovi's broken up, Bon Jovi's back together again....Bon Jovi goes COUNTRY!?!? WTF?!
* and of course, Journey goes through ANOTHER singer change.

quick sidebar:
I'm not looking to start up the whole JSS vs. whomever dramma. Take that shit elsewhere, I'm largely in support of JSS in Journey. So Loons and Augeri-assassins, go to BT to cry about that shit!


The point I'm trying to make is that it seems, at least in our music, that these musicians can't fucking get past their egos and their idiocy. If they only just got past this shit, put the past in the past and got down to business, it seems like not only would they do something right by their fans...but the whole genre would get a boost (at least here in the US) because it would be healthy!!!

I was talking with someone the other day, and he was going through all of the bands that he was into...and for a large percentage of his favorite bands, they were still slagging away, touring, recording new albums....doing right by their fans...all with ORIGINAL members in tow (unless some extreme like a death prevented such a thing)...

However, when I started going down my list of favorite bands, NONE of them were functional original bands. VH, Journey, Night Ranger, Styx, FUCK ME...every one of my favorite bands from my childhood is now a fraction of what it was!!! Were these bands still around? Yeah, thanks to the guys remaining in the band that WANT to continue...but for whatever reason, these bands can't get seem to retain what made these bands great in the first place...am I grateful some of these bands are still slagging away with replacement players? Sure I am. But that's not the point...

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that the time for these bands to have done right by their fans is NOT now...meaning I am not pining for a return of Perry or Hagar or Roth or DeYoung....but every one of these fucking artists should have considered the long term ramifications of such squabling back in the late 80s/early 90s...it really seems they never once thought about the fans in all of this. They fought over Money, Drugs, who got the groupies, what color M&Ms to remove from the food tray...


This actually, (to tie in a slight Journey feel to this), is precisely why I think they will never be elected to the Hall of Fame, although I largely consider the R&RHoF to be a sham these days...but the fact of the matter is that Journey left ALOT on the table....and they couldn't get past the bullshit (whomever was responsible, I dont care!!!! NOT for this discussion). VH is equally to blame.....God knows how THEY got in!!! Styx, guilty. Night Ranger, now, GUILTY. There's more where that came from.


At this stage, I really think this genre, as sad as it is for me to admit, is in serious decline. Thank GOD there are artists out there like Winger and Whitesnake, who keep the flame burning in some way. Although, those acts aren't fully intact either...but the fact of the matter is that when you look at a genre and every major artist from that genre isn't really the same band but 1-3 originals surrounded by hired thugs...thats bad! I still support those guys that *want* to stay in the bands....but the fact of the matter is that it's still sad. Also, how many of these guys that are still doing it, do it for the music? or do it because they need to either maintain their excessive lifestyle or pay the 3-7 allimony checks every month?? Some are doing it for the right reasons, but alot arent!


Some other points I would add...is that I'm getting sick and tired of all of the 'tribute/cover' albums. I never thought Tesla would pull this shit...I didn't put it past the 9-arm band of assholes out of sheffield...but Tesla? Up until recently, I would have added them to the above list of bands that are still doing right. You're an original band...if you can't do right by your fans in a creative context, retire...!!!


Now, I will add, there are some groups doing right, like I said above... But they are most certainly the exception, rather than the rule. It really seems that this genre, which has a few undeniable leaders that refuse to get past their bullshit...is in a spiral downward.

I'd love to hear comments...but LET ME STESS. Keep the Loon and Assassin shit out of this!!!! This thread is WAY beyond Journey. It emcompasses the whole genre!

So what do you guys think? Did this genre get a bad hop? or did it shoot itself in it's foot!? For the longest time, I blamed Buckshot Cobain and his band of smelly men from Seatle for all the damage done in this genre...but alas, I was wrong...very wrong. I really think that the blame lies squarely on the shoulders of the egomaniacs within this very genre...and their inability to either get with reality or at least supress their delusions long enough to do something right for the fans.

Thoughts?

[Red13JoePa]

quick sidebar:
I'm not looking to start up the whole JSS vs. whomever dramma. Take that shit elsewhere, I'm largely in support of JSS in Journey. So Loons and Augeri-assassins, go to BT to cry about that shit!

Come on, Francois.
You're the originator of the nicks, keep 'em straight. Perry Jihadists, JSS Assassins and Augeri Drive By Shooters.

[strangegrey]

Ah, Fuck me...you're right! I can't even get past my own two feet. Thank God I'm not in the music business!!!

[Rockindeano]

That's a large long rant. Personally, all those bands except Journey are pure shit.

Here is the way I saw it Frank and Beans:


Hey folks, I've been absent from forum life for a while...impending finals, grad school aps, job hunting and a litany of odd-job, around the house BS that the wife has thrust on me has really prevented me from having a life...at all.

But this morning, I felt it apropriate to jump in here and say something that I've been feeling for quite some time....but given the current front page news on MR.com, I couldn't help but voice...and I'm wondering if anyone else feels it too?


* and of course, Journey goes through ANOTHER singer change.

quick sidebar:
I'm not looking to start up the whole JSS vs. whomever dramma. Take that shit elsewhere, I'm largely in support of JSS in Journey. So Loons and Augeri-assassins, go to BT to cry about that shit!


This actually, (to tie in a slight Journey feel to this), is precisely why I think they will never be elected to the Hall of Fame, although I largely consider the R&RHoF to be a sham these days...but the fact of the matter is that Journey left ALOT on the table....and they couldn't get past the bullshit (whomever was responsible, I dont care!!!! NOT for this discussion).


I'd love to hear comments...but LET ME STESS. Keep the Loon and Assassin shit out of this!!!! This thread is WAY beyond Journey. It emcompasses the whole genre!



Thoughts?

[Matthew]

The point I'm trying to make is that it seems, at least in our music, that these musicians can't fucking get past their egos and their idiocy. If they only just got past this shit, put the past in the past and got down to business, it seems like not only would they do something right by their fans...but the whole genre would get a boost (at least here in the US) because it would be healthy!!!
.
I really think that the blame lies squarely on the shoulders of the egomaniacs within this very genre...and their inability to either get with reality or at least supress their delusions long enough to do something right for the fans.

Thoughts?

But Strangegrey...the egomania, macho-posturing and hedonistic lifestyles were all qualities which helped to make the music so exciting in the first place, don't you think?

The REAL problem are the squeaky-clean,bland,corporate goody-goody careerist musicians who have no sense of danger or masculinity or edge at all - such as the endless lame indie bands and the pop idol contestants. This is today's problem...just as the whining, depressive music was the problem in the 1990s.

Call me an old dinosaur but men were men back in the 70s and 80s and this was reflected in the rock music of that era. Sure, it can all seem absurd and corny now - but personally I love all the Spinal Tap type antics and it's great to see that all these old rock warriors are still living the dream!

No, they're not 'playing the game' in a pragmatic, professional way. But let's not ask these guys to behave like bank managers.

[strangegrey]

But Strangegrey...the egomania, macho-posturing and hedonistic lifestyles were all qualities which helped to make the music so exciting in the first place, don't you think?

Quite possible that this is exactly the lure of such bands...I dunno. Maybe I'm lamenting the very thing that I celebrated back in the 80s. WTF knows...good point, regardless.

[Rockindeano]

Call me an old dinosaur but men were men back in the 70s and 80s and this was reflected in the rock music of that era. Sure, it can all seem absurd and corny now - but personally I love all the Spinal Tap type antics and it's great to see that all these old rock warriors are still living the dream!

No, they're not 'playing the game' in a pragmatic, professional way. But let's not ask these guys to behave like bank managers.

Dude, you are talking about "men were men" and you have a picture of Friga in your avatar and your favourite cd is ROR. Kind of a conflict there don't you think?

[strangegrey]

The REAL problem are the squeaky-clean,bland,corporate goody-goody careerist musicians who have no sense of danger or masculinity or edge at all - such as the endless lame indie bands and the pop idol contestants. This is today's problem...just as the whining, depressive music was the problem in the 1990s.

Well, this is an issue. I'm not at all talking about the current state of rock....but it can certainly tie in...or worse, the fucking hate your father, do smack 90s....Each era since the 80s has a certain level of disfunctionality to it...that's for certain.

But the fact of the matter is that there were artists over the course of the entire history of rock that have had more longetivity....and partly because of their ability to remain grounded in one way shape or form.

Rush is a great example...as much as Geddy Lee's voice iritates the living fuck out of me....they've stuck to it...and they're still around....pisses me off, actually. A good friend loves these canadian asswipes...and I can't stand em....and every time we talk about this, he goes "Um, what's VH up to?" Fucker!

[Matthew]

But Strangegrey...the egomania, macho-posturing and hedonistic lifestyles were all qualities which helped to make the music so exciting in the first place, don't you think?

Quite possible that this is exactly the lure of such bands...I dunno. Maybe I'm lamenting the very thing that I celebrated back in the 80s. WTF knows...good point, regardless.

Maybe you're just getting old, Strangegrey.

[Matthew]

Call me an old dinosaur but men were men back in the 70s and 80s and this was reflected in the rock music of that era. Sure, it can all seem absurd and corny now - but personally I love all the Spinal Tap type antics and it's great to see that all these old rock warriors are still living the dream!

No, they're not 'playing the game' in a pragmatic, professional way. But let's not ask these guys to behave like bank managers.

Dude, you are talking about "men were men" and you have a picture of Friga in your avatar and your favourite cd is ROR. Kind of a conflict there don't you think?

Jonathan Cain is a role model for real men the world over.

[Matthew]

Each era since the 80s has a certain level of disfunctionality to it...that's for certain.

So too did the jazz scene in the 50s and 60s...the hippie movement...the glory days of hard rock in the 70s (look at led Zep) punk/new wave in the 70s/early 80s....the LA metal scene in the mid-80s...

In fact, most popular music musicians have always been degenerate and irresponsible.

Rush is a great example...as much as Geddy Lee's voice iritates the living fuck out of me....they've stuck to it...and they're still around....pisses me off, actually. A good friend loves these canadian asswipes...and I can't stand em....and every time we talk about this, he goes "Um, what's VH up to?" Fucker!

Yes - Rush are definitely an exception to the norm. But even Alex Lifeson recently got arrested for brawling in a bar, didn't he?

But the appeal of Rush's music is possibly a bit different to that of - say - VH or Ratt. No-one who ever call Rush a good time, party band.

I guess another way of looking at this is...maybe these old rockers just don't know when to leave the stage gracefully. I mean...who really cares anymore about Night Ranger except Andrew? They had their moment in the spotlight and now that moment has passed. And no amount of humility and co-operation and group hugging is going to bring them back. Same goes for Ratt.

I guess Aerosmith and Metallica are other exceptions though. They both managed to straighten themselves out and become a functioning unit again. But in both cases their best days were behind them and the madness and debauchery which nearly destroyed them was also a key reason for the fire and energy in their early, classic work.

[conversationpc]

Rush is a great example...as much as Geddy Lee's voice iritates the living fuck out of me....they've stuck to it...and they're still around....pisses me off, actually. A good friend loves these canadian asswipes...and I can't stand em....and every time we talk about this, he goes "Um, what's VH up to?" Fucker!

I love Rush and it always greatly pleases me when they tick other people off.

[strangegrey]

I guess another way of looking at this is...maybe these old rockers just don't know when to leave the stage gracefully. I mean...who really cares anymore about Night Ranger except Andrew? They had their moment in the spotlight and now that moment has passed. And no amount of humility and co-operation and group hugging is going to bring them back. Same goes for Ratt.

I guess Aerosmith and Metallica are other exceptions though. They both managed to straighten themselves out and become a functioning unit again. But in both cases their best days were behind them and the madness and debauchery which nearly destroyed them was also a key reason for the fire and energy in their early, classic work.

I'm going to quote Smokey and The Bandit...well, paraphrase. "It depends on what part of the country you're standing in, to determine just how dumb you are." It's all perspective...I ceratinly cared about the Night Ranger news...as they were one of my favorite bands growing up. But I certainly see your point with respect to it not affecting much people.

I'm going to go out on a limb here (and fully expect someone, to pull out the chainsaw to cut me down)...and say that it isn't much different for Journey. I'm being a realist here...part of the reason tapegate didn't make it to the front page of the NY times is that the distance with which Journey can extend its influence is greatly impaired (especially compared to days of old). If tapegate were about a more current artist, it would be front page news.

As far as Aerosmith...I'll give you them...but Metallica? Dunno about that one. They have and always will be a tremendously disfunctional band. All one has to do is watch that documentary about the making of St Anger to realize just how fucked up each one of those band members is. Sad to say, but I think Metallica shot it'self in the foot with Napster.

[conversationpc]

As far as Aerosmith...I'll give you them...but Metallica? Dunno about that one. They have and always will be a tremendously disfunctional band. All one has to do is watch that documentary about the making of St Anger to realize just how fucked up each one of those band members is. Sad to say, but I think Metallica shot it'self in the foot with Napster.

I think it was before Napster. I actually kinda liked the "Load" album but I remember thinking while listening to the first single, "Until it Sleeps", something along the lines of "Did they quit playing their instruments while they were off for the last couple of years or what???"

[Matthew]

I'm going to go out on a limb here (and fully expect someone, to pull out the chainsaw to cut me down)...and say that it isn't much different for Journey. I'm being a realist here...part of the reason tapegate didn't make it to the front page of the NY times is that the distance with which Journey can extend its influence is greatly impaired (especially compared to days of old). If tapegate were about a more current artist, it would be front page news.

Yes - you're probably right, Strangegrey.

Metallica? Dunno about that one. They have and always will be a tremendously disfunctional band. All one has to do is watch that documentary about the making of St Anger to realize just how fucked up each one of those band members is. .

Exactly - and that's surely a big reason why they made such dark and angry music so brilliantly. And let's be honest - their personal problems haven't stopped the band from becoming one of the most financially successful acts with incredible longevity too. St Anger was a low-point to be sure - but equally that documentary did show them trying to change their behaviour and personal relationships in exactly the way you want Night Ranger and VH to do.

Too early to tell whether it will result in a great album though....

[ohsherrie]

In fact, most popular music musicians have always been degenerate and irresponsible.

I'm not sure I'd use the word degenerate to apply to all of them, but I do think you have a point. The very artistic talents and personality traits that make them great musicians also make them a little difficult at times. Put two or more of these personality types together in one band and you've got a volatile situation. The more successful the band, the more egos get inflated and the tinder box ignites.

In the cases of our favorite 80's groups, this was the era of bombastic stadium rock. Maybe some personalities became as bombastic as their images.

[Matthew]

As far as Aerosmith...I'll give you them...but Metallica? Dunno about that one. They have and always will be a tremendously disfunctional band. All one has to do is watch that documentary about the making of St Anger to realize just how fucked up each one of those band members is. Sad to say, but I think Metallica shot it'self in the foot with Napster.

I think it was before Napster. I actually kinda liked the "Load" album but I remember thinking while listening to the first single, "Until it Sleeps", something along the lines of "Did they quit playing their instruments while they were off for the last couple of years or what???"

I'd put it even further back...to 1986-1988...when they didn't allow themselves enough time to deal with Cliff Burton's death and the consequences of it. Burton was a phenomenal talent and gave the band a depth and subtlety they never recaptured. Whereas Newsted was a perfectly competant bass player - but he wasn't able to fill the void. Anyway...this is just my take on the huge dip in quality after the first three albums. Maybe there were other factors at work too.

[7 Wishes]

Most of those asswipe grunge bands are either dead or DOA, thankfully. Plus, Beddie Wetter of Toe Jam is looking more and more like the Loaf every year...

"Dougnuts...is there anything they CAN'T do?"
- Homer

[Matthew]

In fact, most popular music musicians have always been degenerate and irresponsible.

I'm not sure I'd use the word degenerate to apply to all of them, but I do think you have a point. The very artistic talents and personality traits that make them great musicians also make them a little difficult at times. Put two or more of these personality types together in one band and you've got a volatile situation. The more successful the band, the more egos get inflated and the tinder box ignites.

In the cases of our favorite 80's groups, this was the era of bombastic stadium rock. Maybe some personalities became as bombastic as their images.

You're right Sherrie. The word degenerate doesn't apply to all of them. Whereas bombastic most certainly does.

[AR]

Still together and making new quality music.

[Red13JoePa]

Dude, you are talking about "men were men" and you have a picture of Friga in your avatar and your favourite cd is ROR. Kind of a conflict there don't you think?

I am guy and I dig ROR.
Secondly, tread carefully when ripping Cain. A mere flex of his left pec would send you pinwheeling across the room.

[Matthew]

Dude, you are talking about "men were men" and you have a picture of Friga in your avatar and your favourite cd is ROR. Kind of a conflict there don't you think?

I am guy and I dig ROR.
Secondly, tread carefully when ripping Cain. A mere flex of his left pec would send you pinwheeling across the room.

[CatEyes]

However, we were thinking along the same lines this morning ........(both of us need to be afraid)

I agree with what you said about the genre itself losing ground. I also feel that the music business itself is going thru growing pains/upheaval these days - and a lot of the "artists" are too weak for the ride. It takes a certain amount of courage and strength to NOT give in to a lot of the problems that are discussed on the front page (I just shook my head the whole time I was reading it)

Just recently Lyor Cohen, chief executive of U.S. Recorded Music for Warner Music Group, wrote a piece for Forbes Magazine http://www.forbes.com/free_forbes/2007/0507/124.html in which he basically patted himself on the back for a lot that went on in the 80's and 90's. One part was very interesting and it made me think about Journey and how they are so amazing live:

Ahmet Ertegun, the inimitable music magnate who passed away last year, left me with a telling memory. Once an A&R executive was bending his ear about a hot new band. Finally Ahmet asked him a single question, which embarrassed the man into silence: "Have you seen the band live?"

Ahmet knew that finding good music is about going out, making contact with people and listening. It's about going to a dive, getting your shoes stepped on, drinks spilled on you, jostling for a view and loving it. That's all part of the live experience, and there's no substitute for it--not just for the audience, but for the musicians, whose creativity fuels the industry.

As much as technology transforms the world, as powerful as all these peer-to-peer or social networks are becoming, the most important network is still composed of real, live people dealing with one another face-to-face. Showing up in person still matters. It's true in friendship. It's true in business. It's true in music. When certain people walk into a room, molecules change, energy shifts--and things start to happen.

As would have it, one of my favorite writers/critics/all around biz guy Bob Lefsetz (who holds a similar contempt as I do for label heads like Cohen) responded to Lyor's editorial - it can be found at http://lefsetz.com/wordpress/. Lefsetz goes on and on, however at the very end is another part that maybe Jouney/Irving need to consider:

Great artists don't like to be told what to do.

So great artists are now going it alone. The music landscape will be ruled in the future by a completely different coterie. People who are trustworthy, who aren't into winning through intimidation. They'll gain their toehold via the Internet that still has majors scratching their heads. They'll use the new systems to deliver desirable music to niches however small. They'll realize we're living in a golden era of opportunity.

Yup, Lyor is all doom and gloom, but there's never been a better time to be a musician, or an entrepreneur. And stunningly, they're often one and the same. And, those working at the long in the tooth major labels are usually neither.

Very early on, I got bored with the entire "I am a rock star - I am a bad boy" image - The Stones were the original bad boys, followed closely by Aerosmith - and they are still strong - In my opinion, if your band is not that good or that strong, stop trying to play the bad boy roll. Oh and your mother wants her clothes back.

Journey never played the bad boy card, even when everybody else did - that could have been part of the reason for some idiots to think they are just a chick's band.

These days the labels are trying to sell us "music" that the "artists" do not have the talent or strength to show up live and perform. And a lot of groups from back in the day are just issuing statements as to why they can no longer play together.

Sucks.

Just my opinion and not that of the management.

Cat

[Red13JoePa]

Dude, you are talking about "men were men" and you have a picture of Friga in your avatar and your favourite cd is ROR. Kind of a conflict there don't you think?

I am guy and I dig ROR.
Secondly, tread carefully when ripping Cain. A mere flex of his left pec would send you pinwheeling across the room.

Deano would attempt to retailiate with a fruitless boiler bump, nimble Caino would simply sidestep and squash him between his biceps and forearm.

Dude is jacked.

[*Laura]

For the longest time, I blamed Buckshot Cobain and his band of smelly men from Seatle for all the damage done in this genre...but alas, I was wrong...very wrong. I really think that the blame lies squarely on the shoulders of the egomaniacs within this very genre...

At one point I've done that too - blaming certain genres for damaging others.Sure it's wrong.I hate grunge,I hate hip-hop,but I cannot be unfair and say that these are the reasons why the big AOR bands are in the shades...It would be too simple.
The artists themselves have a lot to do with the way things evolve.After all,they are making the music,it's their personalities that shine through.

IMO,a band's life depends on the sanity of its members.
If they can survive the change of times,if they can tame their egos enough to get along and then keep their passion for music stronger than their passion for money...LOL,it's a nice theory but it's not working in reality.

The more I think,the more I realize that all the famous rock musicians were underprivileged kids who saw rock stardom as a way out.That background generates problems later...Fame is a bitch.


I secretly blame Bono for everything.
Seriously,Bono is a disappointment.He gave up his rock aura just to make sure that he stays relevant.

[strangegrey]

Still together and making new quality music.

A VERY good example of some of the few that know how to keep the torch burning. Sad that there aren't more like CT, but they've done right.

[strangegrey]

I secretly blame Bono for everything.
Seriously,Bono is a disappointment.He gave up his rock aura just to make sure that he stays relevant.

He had a Rock aura?

[*Laura]

I secretly blame Bono for everything.
Seriously,Bono is a disappointment.He gave up his rock aura just to make sure that he stays relevant.

He had a Rock aura?

A yellowish one. Now is kinda green-ish.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

But this morning, I felt it apropriate to jump in here and say something that I've been feeling for quite some time....BLAH, BLAH, BLAH...

Thoughts?

Yes. I think you're getting old.

When JOURNEY, etc. were hot in their day my parents were saying EXACTLY what you're saying now. When Bill Haley, Little Richard, and Elvis were hot in their day my grand parents were saying this.

The reality is that music and musical tastes and styles change.

I think JOURNEY wrote a song about this - yeah - something about every generation...

[CatEyes]

The more I think,the more I realize that all the famous rock musicians were underprivileged kids who saw rock stardom as a way out.That background generates problems later...Fame is a bitch.

Very true - and i think that is the same with Sports - a lot of young high school and college kids, talented - yes, but to them they just see it as a way out- and problems ensue.

Cat