fuck the fans and fuck the players

[Wheels Of Fyre]

Hey - I used "fuck" in one of my threads! Maybe this one won't get locked.

The first JOURNEY lineup change involved their then drummer Prairie Prince. Not much is known/reported about the early JOURNEY with him however his departure appears to have been amicable. After their debut album guitarist George Tickner left for medical school. No apparent story there, either.

Enter vocalist Robert Fleischman. His story is ugly. The fans weren't happy about JOURNEY bringing him in and evolving from an instrumental group to one built around vocals. The fans felt betrayed and as he recalls it they'd be "flipping me off every night." Not only did RF feel the wrath of the fans he was perhaps the first in a series of players to feel the infamous JOURNEY knife in the back. You know the story. HH found a way to keep him occupied back stage during a sound check while SP went on stage to sing one of Robert's songs! Now THAT was some kind of knife. JOURNEY almost seems proud of that historical moment! It seems to have set a precedence: fuck the fans and fuck the players - just do what you have to do to make $$$.

You all know the story, too how SP was "eased" into the lineup so as not to fuck the fans too hard or too fast. In fact, his first performance was during an encore in which he sang just 2 songs before an audience of about 600 people at the Old Waldorf in San Francisco, 1977. As expected SP wasn't immediately embraced by the fans. They again felt betrayed and either turned away or eventually converted. Of course, new fans arrived that propelled the band to the edges of superstardom - right up to the point where GR departed as the band felt they had (per SP) "taken that type of music as far as they could take it." Once again the fans were fucked and enraged.

Enter JC. With him JOURNEY lost fans but gained some, too. Considering the successes of the next 3 albums with him (E5C4P3, Frontiers, and ROR) and E5C4P3 being their first and only #1 album - you could argue that JC was THE reason for the music that's now commonly understood by fans and the music world as their "legacy sound". Success tends to change minds and history. By this time the fucking of RF, GR, and the fans was a faded memory.

Then SP thought he'd have a go! After ROR he decided to "retire" or whatever - it's just not clear what his problems were but there were apparently MANY. He fucked JOURNEY and the fans as EVERYONE waited...and waited...and waited...nearly ten loooooooooooooooooooong years when $$$ brought back the "classic" lineup for the disjointed and disappointing studio effort TBF which did manage to generate one grammy nomination but ended up in the horniest fan fucking extravaganza ever as the band stroked everyone to the edge of climax and then - ...pffft... they parted ways yet again. The fans were left with the biggest, most painful case of blue balls in the history of blue balls.

I'm still spinning from mine so please excuse my cutting to the chase. I'd review what happened with SA and JSS but we all know about it. Ultimately, the band is merely following their ideology: "fuck the fans and fuck the players - just do what you have to do to make $$$." Sadly, you can't argue that it doesn't work.

[Perry86fan]

I agree with you to a point.......but we don't know why Mr P left other than he was toast. And i wonder why? His mom had passed away and i am sure that was other things as well.But for whatever reason he made that band.

I do feel for SA he was used and when he could do no more he was out.And yes i remember tapegate. JSS we don't know either and i feel very sure they wanted the old ways and not try something new.But JSS is great he will make it he has the right stuff.

Fyre hope this dose not get closed. Would love to read what others thought about it.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

I agree with you to a point.......but we don't know why Mr P left other than he was toast. And i wonder why? His mom had passed away and i am sure that was other things as well.But for whatever reason he made that band.

I do feel for SA he was used and when he could do no more he was out.And yes i remember tapegate. JSS we don't know either and i feel very sure they wanted the old ways and not try something new.But JSS is great he will make it he has the right stuff.

Fyre hope this dose not get closed. Would love to read what others thought about it.

Thanks for the response!

I think you hit another point: being used. The players and fans are used in order to make a buck.

I've always argued and understood that making money by selling art is NOT a bad thing. I think the question is: are you making art for a living or are you living through your art?

What's that old saying? "This is how I make a living but it's not my life." I can understand that coming from me. I'm just a Joe Schlub who goes off to work every day.

Goes off to work.

I WORK for a living but my work is NOT my life. Making music and performing on stage is NOT work. If you say that it is then you are NOT making music nor performing. Making music and performing on stage is an ART - a CRAFT through which the human condition and experience is expressed. Making music and performnig on stage doesn't take work. It takes humanity.

An artist says, "I live through my art and my art lives through me." If your art resonates with an audience then you'll have a few bucks thrown your way BUT if you're USING your art and your audience just so you can buy a new motorcycle or some mansion in the hills then you're no longer an artist. It's just that simple.

Being an artist is the highest form of existence. I say this because I've been there. Whether it was something I'd drawn on paper or performed on stage - I lived through my art and my art lived through me. And there's no greater ertun than to see how others are enlivened by your art. THAT'S what it's all about. When you're an artist your #1 concern is: what can I give to my audience? I can't tell anymore if JOURNEY's at all interested or happy to give.

[DerriD]

Sounds like a pretty accurate capsulated review to me.

[JrnySuxBalls]

An artist says, "I live through my art and my art lives through me." If your art resonates with an audience then you'll have a few bucks thrown your way BUT if you're USING your art and your audience just so you can buy a new motorcycle or some mansion in the hills then you're no longer an artist. It's just that simple.

If you refer to your latest album as "product", there's a sign that the artistry is being lost.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

An artist says, "I live through my art and my art lives through me." If your art resonates with an audience then you'll have a few bucks thrown your way BUT if you're USING your art and your audience just so you can buy a new motorcycle or some mansion in the hills then you're no longer an artist. It's just that simple.

If you refer to your latest album as "product", there's a sign that the artistry is being lost.

BINGO! Nail on the head RIGHT THERE.

[Behshad]

An artist says, "I live through my art and my art lives through me." If your art resonates with an audience then you'll have a few bucks thrown your way BUT if you're USING your art and your audience just so you can buy a new motorcycle or some mansion in the hills then you're no longer an artist. It's just that simple.

If you refer to your latest album as "product", there's a sign that the artistry is being lost.

BINGO! Nail on the head RIGHT THERE.

let me guess, cause it wasn't produced by Shakira ?;)

[Wheels Of Fyre]

An artist says, "I live through my art and my art lives through me." If your art resonates with an audience then you'll have a few bucks thrown your way BUT if you're USING your art and your audience just so you can buy a new motorcycle or some mansion in the hills then you're no longer an artist. It's just that simple.

If you refer to your latest album as "product", there's a sign that the artistry is being lost.

BINGO! Nail on the head RIGHT THERE.

let me guess, cause it wasn't produced by Shakira ?;)

Shakira is an artist in every sense of the word. She's also got an incredible caboose!

[ArnelRox]

He fucked JOURNEY and the fans as EVERYONE waited...and waited...and waited...nearly ten loooooooooooooooooooong years when $$$ brought back the "classic" lineup for the disjointed and disappointing studio effort TBF which did manage to generate one grammy nomination but ended up in the horniest fan fucking extravaganza ever as the band stroked everyone to the edge of climax and then - ...pffft... they parted ways yet again. The fans were left with the biggest, most painful case of blue balls in the history of blue balls..

I'll agree w/u up to this point. Obviously this is not the 1st time this band has acted this way. It's their MO.

I'm just not so sure anymore that Perry fucked them at all. Yes he was toast after ROR. He lost his Mom, he broke up w/his girlfriend. But I imagine the hatred in that band right about then was pretty damn awful as well. Herbie says it had been awful for yrs. People say it was horrible for Augeri. Maybe it was horrible for Jeff too. Lots of bands perform together but hate each other. In light of recent events, I suspect Perry couldnt take it anymore. 9 yrs later he tried to give it a go again. But maybe the hatred got the better of him again & his hip issue pushed him into never wanting to work w/FrigFro again.

All that aside, does ur mommy know ur using this many cusswords today?

[Wheels Of Fyre]

He fucked JOURNEY and the fans as EVERYONE waited...and waited...and waited...nearly ten loooooooooooooooooooong years when $$$ brought back the "classic" lineup for the disjointed and disappointing studio effort TBF which did manage to generate one grammy nomination but ended up in the horniest fan fucking extravaganza ever as the band stroked everyone to the edge of climax and then - ...pffft... they parted ways yet again. The fans were left with the biggest, most painful case of blue balls in the history of blue balls..

I'll agree w/u up to this point. Obviously this is not the 1st time this band has acted this way. It's their MO.

I'm just not so sure anymore that Perry fucked them at all. Yes he was toast after ROR. He lost his Mom, he broke up w/his girlfriend. But I imagine the hatred in that band right about then was pretty damn awful as well. Herbie says it had been awful for yrs. People say it was horrible for Augeri. Maybe it was horrible for Jeff too. Lots of bands perform together but hate each other. In light of recent events, I suspect Perry couldnt take it anymore. 9 yrs later he tried to give it a go again. But maybe the hatred got the better of him again & his hip issue pushed him into never wanting to work w/FrigFro again.

All that aside, does ur mommy know ur using this many cusswords today?

That wasn't a dig on SP. Note that I said "the band stroked everyone". What SP did was to single-handedly put the band and fans on hold. I certainly don't know all of the details be they legal or what BUT it seems clear that he somehow forced the "retirement" of the band. I suppose everyone had some bucks socked away at that point so it probably wasn't much of a financial problem for the band but I guess what bothers me is that his attitude appeared to be that he was bigger than the band.

On the other hand the control freak thing about SP has never made sense to me considering that his claim was that he never felt like he was part of the band. If he was such a control freak and if he felt like he was bigger than the band then I can't see why he would make that comment.

My head is really spinning now.

Please don't tell my mother about my behavior!

[Greg]

Yeah sounds good to me. That's why I am wondering that IF Journey continues, will this just be a repeat of history, or is this incident so much worse, because we have had interaction with Jeff and well...we have the internet?

[ArnelRox]

What SP did was to single-handedly put the band and fans on hold.

That's like saying Bon Scott, Freddie Mercury or Brad Delp did that by dying. Or Magic Johnson did it when he became HIV+. I just can't agree. Perry had burnout in 87 & a health issue in 96. He doesnt owe the fans his life. Nor did any of the other people mentioned.

BUT it seems clear that he somehow forced the "retirement" of the band.

Only b/c he was the lead singer & very tough to replace. But he didnt owe the band his life anymore than he owed the fans. If u become too unhealthy to work, are u forcing ur company into retirement? No. That's ludicrous.

I guess what bothers me is that his attitude appeared to be that he was bigger than the band.

I've never gotten that impression from Perry himself. However in my opinion he was & still is bigger than the band. Me & other fans have made him that way. He has never done anything to perpetuate that attitude.

On the other hand the control freak thing about SP has never made sense to me considering that his claim was that he never felt like he was part of the band. If he was such a control freak and if he felt like he was bigger than the band then I can't see why he would make that comment.

Was that the whole paragraph he said or was it edited for dramatic effect? Cyndy & Lora have said several times that it was edited heavily. Since they were there, I trust them.

Please don't tell my mother about my behavior!

Sure. What's her phone number? I'd like to praise u to her

[brandonx76]

Reminda me of another mantra: "Save the world, save the cheerleader"

[Wheels Of Fyre]

What SP did was to single-handedly put the band and fans on hold.

That's like saying Bon Scott, Freddie Mercury or Brad Delp did that by dying. Or Magic Johnson did it when he became HIV+. I just can't agree. Perry had burnout in 87 & a health issue in 96. He doesnt owe the fans his life. Nor did any of the other people mentioned.

That's not at all what I'm saying.

Like I said, I don't know the circumstances but it's clear that the band didn't/couldn't go on without him.

Neal has stated that his one regret is that they didn't go on without him. That perhaps suggests that they could - so maybe SP didn't have as much to do with it as I'm suggesting. Again, I don't know anything for sure. I can only look at the facts and draw conclusions.

Ironically - most people will say how unloyal FrigFro are BUT they seemed awfully loyal to SP to wait nearly 10 years for him. However I can't help but wonder if they were being loyal or simply waiting for their "meal ticket" to come back around. It's very possible that they figured going on withouy SP would've been suicide.

Back to SP. Consider the facts:
- He held the knife to RF's back, too
- HH's accusations of SP "shanghai'ing" people.
- Gregg Rolie's departing statement, "This guy's out of control."
- SP's seemingly control-freakish behavior about the movie Monster.
- SP's need to "approve" the Soprano's use of DSB.
- SP's maniacal behavior during ROR which he to this day regrets.
- SP's "Don't crack the stone." plea/demand.
- The "order" that JOURNEY's catalog can NOT be re-recorded with any other singer.

AND the one that bothers me the most is his CONSTANT teasing and misleading of the fans regarding any comeback. The icing on the cake was that ChiSox player who "reported" to the media that SP was working on something for a comeback!!! Make a decision one way or the other and STOP messing with everyone's heads and hearts! These head games are SO indicative of a control freak.

I think there's enough to argue that SP's far from a saint and maybe closer to a control freak.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that because the results speak for themselves. I'm simply saying that SP's saga follows suit with JOURNEY's in that fans and players were - you know - fucked.

Please don't tell my mother about my behavior!

Sure. What's her phone number? I'd like to praise u to her

Aw, shucks....