Time to move on ?

[MartyMoffatt]

I’ve been closely following all the forums (MR, JRUK, JourneyForums, JSS Forum, MR Noticeboard etc etc) and they all are pretty much universally condemning Journey’s recent actions.

It saddens me a little because, while what Journey (apparently) did was reprehensible, it seems to me there are individuals on these forums capable of much worse, yet everybody seems to hold the members of Journey to a much higher level of accountability than the rest of us mere mortals. I’ve seen arguments, aggression, threats, racism, discrimination etc representing some of the worst of human endeavours played out on these forums, with hardly an eyebrow raised. We seem to condone (and sometimes even encourage) failings in our own characters but expect nothing less than perfection in our heroes.

They are human, they have lives to live, livelihoods to worry about and like all humans they make mistakes. Yes, they made a *big* mistake here, in my opinion, but it’s their life. Perhaps we all need to get lives of our own. These sort of hirings and firings have gone on since the first days of rock’n’roll. It’s a cutthroat business and always has been, but usually people outside the immediate band and management are none the wiser. It is only this fishbowl that the internet creates that allows ‘fan’atical followers of any band to see, debate and question every move more or less as it happens.

And notice I said ‘apparently’ above. We don’t know for sure what went on, or who was involved in the decision making process. We know that Jeff was dumped from the band but not why, when or who by? Yet most people seem to have made assumptions or are speculating wildly. I remember not 12 months ago seeing similar assumptions and speculation and comments about Steve Augeri that people are now backtracking on.

I do feel sorry for Jeff. He did nothing wrong (and an awful lot right) and didn’t deserve to be ousted. However, Jeff’s personal fanbase has probably more than quadrupled due to the exposure he got during his tenure with the band and I think his long term prospects are very good indeed. He is a terrific talent and has a great attitude, and has a lot of capable and very supportive people around him. Over the past 3-4 years I’ve followed his career and got to know him just a little as a friend, and have come to respect him and his work enormously. I’ll continue to support him whatever he does in the future.

But does he need to be put on a pedestal, as seems to be happening here? I’m sure even Jeff would agree that Idol worship can be unhealthy, as it places unrealistic expectations on the person being worshipped. Jeff is human too - he has made mistakes in the past and will doubtless make more in the future. And when he does, will he be vilified the way Journey is being right now? I think part of the reason there is so much hatred towards the band right now is an indication of just how high a pedestal they had been placed upon.

I don’t condone anything that Journey may or may not have done here, but what’s happened has happened. Endless debating is not going to reverse the events of the past few weeks. It’s time to move on IMHO. Sorry if this post sounds pretentious or condescending – it’s not meant to, but my writing style means that is often how it is interpreted.

Marty

[rdekker]

Marty, my friend, you are so right. Great post !

[Sassie]

But JSS is not the only one they hurt, he is just the latest one they hurt. I think I am going to be mad at them for a little while longer. Sorry. I guess I just need a few days more.

[frostbite]

You're right Marty. I think the band are really dragging the name of Journey across muddy tracks by getting yet another singer in but it's their decision. Like you say, time to move on indeed.

[dugnet]

Spot on!

I don't actually think JSS and Journey's back catalogue are a "natural" fit, that is in no way to discredit JSS's obvious talent and the signifcant energy he brought to the band. He can move on a stronger person and an enhanced performer, his next move will be a positive one I am certain.

As for Journey, well I am not sure what happens there other than to say they still have the songs.

Life goes on and it isn't worth falling out about over an opinion about who is right and who is wrong.

[nikki]

Yes, it is time. No point in crying over spilt milk. Jeff seems to be moving on to bigger and better things, and maybe the rest of us should as well. He was treated badly and although that will irk me for some time to come, I still love the music even though I'm not too keen on the band itself right now. Just hoping Jeff's upcoming projects are not only sucessful but creatively satisfying for him. He's always been so good to us as fans, and it's better to focus on the positives this situation might bring about than the negatives, and that's what I'm opting to do at this time. I'll save my hostility for Van Halen, another great band who can't seem to get their shit together for their fans!

[frostbite]

I think that just about says it all nikki.

[donnaplease]

Sorry, but I must respectfully disagree Marty. It is not yet time to 'move on'. That is EXACTLY what this band and it's management is hoping we'd say. Another fuck up?? Oh, well...move on. We don't want to be upfront and honest with our fans about our fuck ups? Oh, well...move on. As I've said before, and others have been quick to point out when it suits their argument, this is a BUSINESS. Can you imagine any other business treating their customers (many of them 30 year customers) in a comparable situation not once, but TWICE in the past year? How long would they be in business??? Yes, now they're trying to worm their way out of another sticky situation by saying "we want to sound like our 65 million units out there". Sure, that's a BRILLIANT strategy, because they think they will get instant forgiveness since they are in essence saying "we need the SP sound" and there are still a shitload of loyal SP fans out there. But, how dumb do they really think we are?

Not gonna work this time guys. JOURNEY has made themselves into the joke that they have become. They have to "own their own poo". And they'll be owning it for a while longer yet.

[MJM1959]

Wow. That's great. Let's just all gather round in a big circle and sing Kumbaya while we wait for the next new Journey release.

I don't bloody think so. This band did not just screw Jeff. They screwed the fans that allowed themselves to believe that there was something special in the future. Instead, we get a so-called band with no lead singer, no tour and no new album in the works. We get a band that is more concerned with their "legacy" than they are with the possibilty of straying away from their "Perry Comfort Zone" and doing anything new or creative.

Please excuse me if I am not ready to worship on bended knee at the pedastal of Journey.

[Eric]

They'll need to release an album for me to stay a fan...simple as that

[frostbite]

I made my feelings clear on the current Journey situation on another thread, I think they're running this once thoroughbred horse into the knackers yard, but Marty's not saying that the fans should just accept things and have a hug in, he even says that he doesn't condone their actions. There's nothing any of us can do about it but move on. I agree with Marty 100% that endless debate on the matter is pointless. I've made my decision and I've made my feelings clear. That's enough. My future Journey experiences will be purely via the CD player now. This revolving door singer approach doesn't appeal.

[wildone]

everyones intitled to mistakes ...but hopefuly we learn by them ...they obviously didn't..they just call it par for the course and they hide behind the line"It's just buisness"thats bullshit!Karma is coming around ...and there going to get a heaping spoonful!

[Saint John]

They'll need to release an album for me to stay a fan...simple as that

I have a hunch that they plan on doing EXACTLY that. If they wanted to continue playing the summer concert series they could have REALLY fucked Jeff and kept him on board. He's a tour veteran with a tested voice who has more than proven he can handle the rigors of the road. Even auditioning Jeremey tells me that they want a certain sound on their upcoming new music because it's too much of a risk to bring in an as of yet untested road singer to JUST sing the "Dirty Dozen."

[larocque6689]

As an "ex-fan", I don't have any interest in their upcoming album or tour or whomever they hire as vocalist. They've lost me. But as I wrote in another thread, there are other bands to follow. So yeah, if you want to call that moving on, you can.

[MartyMoffatt]

Sorry, but I must respectfully disagree Marty. It is not yet time to 'move on'. That is EXACTLY what this band and it's management is hoping we'd say. Another fuck up?? Oh, well...move on. We don't want to be upfront and honest with our fans about our fuck ups? Oh, well...move on. As I've said before, and others have been quick to point out when it suits their argument, this is a BUSINESS. Can you imagine any other business treating their customers (many of them 30 year customers) in a comparable situation not once, but TWICE in the past year? How long would they be in business??? Yes, now they're trying to worm their way out of another sticky situation by saying "we want to sound like our 65 million units out there". Sure, that's a BRILLIANT strategy, because they think they will get instant forgiveness since they are in essence saying "we need the SP sound" and there are still a shitload of loyal SP fans out there. But, how dumb do they really think we are?

Not gonna work this time guys. JOURNEY has made themselves into the joke that they have become. They have to "own their own poo". And they'll be owning it for a while longer yet.

Life is too short to carry this much angst around. OK, so you are pissed off with what has happened – me too – but any amount of hand wringing, sulking, shouting, complaining or arguing isn’t going to change what’s happened in the slightest.

Regarding your comments about business, frankly you would be amazed at just how many stupid, whimsical decisions are taken every day at boardroom level in many businesses. Whether they regret those decisions is a matter for hindsight, but I’ve seen at first hand decisions that have no basis in logic and are nothing short of cretinous. But businesses ARE businesses – they are not there for the customer’s benefit. The customer is just the means to an end (profit) and if a business isn’t screwing its customers it is screwing its suppliers or screwing its employees. If it isn’t doing any of those things it likely won’t stay in business long. I know that sounds cynical, and not all companies are like that but a great many are. And to my mind, Journey are no different. They are no better and no worse.

As a customer you have a choice. If you don’t like their current product there are lots of other suppliers of this kind of melodic rock music. It doesn’t degrade the value of their music you already own.

Let’s look at the positives of this sorry situation. JSS is now free to be really creative and showcase his talents in areas that simply wouldn’t have been possible with Journey – and I know many long time JSS fans are actually happy about that. Journey can continue to satisfy those fans that just want to hear the Dirty Dozen (and let’s face it, except for a few hundred or so more demanding people here on these forums, that is still probably 99% of their fanbase). Whether they do that with a new singer or just through re-issues/re-mastering etc of material already in existence, the music lives on.

I would love to hear new material from Journey, but if it’s not going to happen C’est la Vie. We were privileged to witness some fantastic concerts with both Steve Augeri and with Jeff Scott Soto in recent years and nothing will take that away. Maybe they can recapture that magic with another vocalist, maybe not. Either way I’m not going to lose sleep over it.

Marty

[EightyRock]

Couldn't disagree more with you, Marty. Journey screwed 3 singers and their most loyal fanbase. After tapegate, people were pissed and disgusted by what they had become. It didn't get better...it got WORSE. Now they claim going back in time with a Perry sound-a-like is their/OUR future with this band.
No thanks. They've bitten the hand that feeds them three times. I won't spend a dime on them, or let them off the hook for their shitty decisions. You can stomach all they've done in the past 10 years and go on like they're the great musical entity we once knew? Go for it.

[NealIsGod]

They'll need to release an album for me to stay a fan...simple as that

I have a hunch that they plan on doing EXACTLY that. If they wanted to continue playing the summer concert series they could have REALLY fucked Jeff and kept him on board. He's a tour veteran with a tested voice who has more than proven he can handle the rigors of the road. Even auditioning Jeremey tells me that they want a certain sound on their upcoming new music because it's too much of a risk to bring in an as of yet untested road singer to JUST sing the "Dirty Dozen."

Hmmm... you may be on to something, SJ. Journey makes most of their money touring and from their back catalog, doubt that much revenue would come from a new CD. But I am not interested in a band that just tours every year without releasing new music. So I hope you're right.

[MartyMoffatt]

Couldn't disagree more with you, Marty. Journey screwed 3 singers and their most loyal fanbase. After tapegate, people were pissed and disgusted by what they had become. It didn't get better...it got WORSE. Now they claim going back in time with a Perry sound-a-like is their/OUR future with this band.
No thanks. They've bitten the hand that feeds them three times. I won't spend a dime on them, or let them off the hook for their shitty decisions. You can stomach all they've done in the past 10 years and go on like they're the great musical entity we once knew? Go for it.

Maybe I didn’t make my point clear enough. I’m not saying we should all forgive and forget, and if your view is to say ‘enough is enough – I want no more to do with Journey’ I respect and value that view. All I’m saying is that this endless merry-go-round of bitterness isn’t productive for anybody. I’m just suggesting that maybe it’s time to draw a line under it and move on, in whatever direction your conscience takes you. We don’t own the band. They follow their own path and we either go along for the ride or we get off. It’s like riding a bus – you can choose when to get on or off, but you can’t insist the bus driver then changes his route just to suit you.

For the record, I’ve never held Journey, or any other band, up as anything other than talented musicians. That way I’m not as disappointed if they let me down at a personal level.

Marty

[NealIsGod]

Couldn't disagree more with you, Marty. Journey screwed 3 singers and their most loyal fanbase. After tapegate, people were pissed and disgusted by what they had become. It didn't get better...it got WORSE. Now they claim going back in time with a Perry sound-a-like is their/OUR future with this band.
No thanks. They've bitten the hand that feeds them three times. I won't spend a dime on them, or let them off the hook for their shitty decisions. You can stomach all they've done in the past 10 years and go on like they're the great musical entity we once knew? Go for it.

Maybe I didn’t make my point clear enough. I’m not saying we should all forgive and forget, and if your view is to say ‘enough is enough – I want no more to do with Journey’ I respect and value that view. All I’m saying is that this endless merry-go-round of bitterness isn’t productive for anybody. I’m just suggesting that maybe it’s time to draw a line under it and move on, in whatever direction your conscience takes you. We don’t own the band. They follow their own path and we either go along for the ride or we get off. It’s like riding a bus – you can choose when to get on or off, but you can’t insist the bus driver then changes his route just to suit you.

For the record, I’ve never held Journey, or any other band, up as anything other than talented musicians. That way I’m not as disappointed if they let me down at a personal level.

Marty

Right on, Marty. If JSS himself is moving on, which he has already stated he is, then everybody else should, too. Wallowing in disappointment and resentment just makes you a miserable person.

[CatEyes]

... But does he need to be put on a pedestal, as seems to be happening here? I’m sure even Jeff would agree that Idol worship can be unhealthy, as it places unrealistic expectations on the person being worshipped. Jeff is human too - he has made mistakes in the past and will doubtless make more in the future. And when he does, will he be vilified the way Journey is being right now? I think part of the reason there is so much hatred towards the band right now is an indication of just how high a pedestal they had been placed upon.

spot on, here Marty ....... the higher the pedastal, the bigger the fall and our angst ---

The one thing I do disagree with is the suggestion to "move on"

Perry fans were told to get a life and move on - Augeri fans were told the same thing. Both groups of fans have been terribly attacked and vilified.

There is a natural process to grieving - and a good deal of it includes anger and questioning - demanding answers - and that process needs to be allowed to happen.

Granted some peope grieve differently and longer than others.

I do not want to make the mistake of putting all Perry fans in one pile or all Augeri fans in one pile - that is what happened in the past and a lot of the anger just went on and on and on and on (like the song says.)

I certainly do not want to lump all Soto fans or Journey fans into piles.

To each his own - and time will pass and anger will subside. Some will hold onto it because they feel that anger and hatered and the entitlement to each is all they have.

There is more.

So much more.

If you chose to hate Journey that's your choice. But instead of hating everyone else - go hug your kid.

Cat

[NealIsGod]

There is a natural process to grieving

Really? Who died?

[Escape Artist]

I have let it go, I gave Jeremey a listen and enjoyed his vocals and I will support Journey IF and only IF they record new music.

I am not interested in a "nostalgia" band.

But by all means...enough is enough.

[CatEyes]

There is a natural process to grieving

Really? Who died?

Grieving is not just for death.

Humans go through a "grieving" process anytime there is a change in their lives that effects them greatly - mostly from a feeling of loss and loss of control over the events of their lives.

It can be the loss of a job - it can be a divorce - it can be illness - moving to a new city, even if it is a good thing and you are looking forward to a new job and new friends.

hell new furniture can bring some people to tears!!

[Moon Beam]

Marty though I feel what you say about holding on to the anger
or disappointment is true I don't entirely agree with your conclusions.
These are message fourms that your speaking about where the
only way people can communicate is through typed words.
A lot of it is just that, typed words, thoughts on the screen.
Without them there would be no message boards.
Yes there can be a happy middle ground but if the fans don't make their
thoughts or feelings known the musicians will never know the best way
to improve on their craft and keep the fans coming back for more.
With or without scandal there will always be unhappy fans.
At least in these forums fans can have their say in more than just a ticket stub or
CD/DVD sale.

If I choose to support the band I have spent over 25 years loving yet
still choose to complain about things I don't like within their Members
that's my bag to deal with.


Good post Marty I enjoyed reading it.

[NealIsGod]

There is a natural process to grieving

Really? Who died?

Grieving is not just for death.

Humans go through a "grieving" process anytime there is a change in their lives that effects them greatly - mostly from a feeling of loss and loss of control over the events of their lives.

It can be the loss of a job - it can be a divorce - it can be illness - moving to a new city

And this compares to those things?

[CatEyes]

There is a natural process to grieving

Really? Who died?

Grieving is not just for death.

Humans go through a "grieving" process anytime there is a change in their lives that effects them greatly - mostly from a feeling of loss and loss of control over the events of their lives.

It can be the loss of a job - it can be a divorce - it can be illness - moving to a new city

And this compares to those things?

To some fans it might ...... even tho it doesn't to you.

So NIG I am not going to spar with you over this. I made my post and defined it for you.


Cat

[NealIsGod]

There is a natural process to grieving

Really? Who died?

Grieving is not just for death.

Humans go through a "grieving" process anytime there is a change in their lives that effects them greatly - mostly from a feeling of loss and loss of control over the events of their lives.

It can be the loss of a job - it can be a divorce - it can be illness - moving to a new city

And this compares to those things?

To some fans it might ...... even tho it doesn't to you.

So NIG I am not going to spar with you over this. I made my post and defined it for you.

No sparring, just trying to show that many people take it way too seriously. Not saying you do.

[Lady Luck]

hell new furniture can bring some people to tears!!

It did me until I got it paid off. LOL!

[Liz22562]

Nice post Marty! Music plays a part of our lives, no doubt. Yet to see a few people get so emotionally upset and enraged by the decisions of a band that hatred is spewed to anyone that does not decide to go with the grain is beyond belief.

Jeff is a big boy and can take care of himself. No doubt he was blessed to be able to join Journey for a brief time and sing the music that had some type of meaning to him and fans alike. I'm sure he learned a huge lesson in the events that occurred and will know what to look out for in the future. He will forever be known as extremely fan friendly and classy in the music industry and that is something that a great deal of performers can not admit too. He has helped create some wonderful memories for some of you. Hold on to that instead of raging against anyone else. There is a scarey amount of hatred being dished out on these message boards and it is truly sad.

If you are tired of Journey - there are so many other artists out there that have just as good, if not better music to offer!

Peace to all~

[****]

There is a natural process to grieving

Really? Who died?

Grieving is not just for death.

Humans go through a "grieving" process anytime there is a change in their lives that effects them greatly - mostly from a feeling of loss and loss of control over the events of their lives.

It can be the loss of a job - it can be a divorce - it can be illness - moving to a new city

And this compares to those things?

To some fans it might ...... even tho it doesn't to you.

So NIG I am not going to spar with you over this. I made my post and defined it for you.

No sparring, just trying to show that many people take it way too seriously. Not saying you do.

Understandable - but that is their prerogative to be as upset or not upset as they want to. And I think if those people want to be furious - or be euphoric - then they should be allowed without the fear of being slammed. Thats all I think some people are saying. (correct me if I'm wrong)