Time to move on ?

[*Laura]

OMG!!!

http://www.totally-funky.co.uk/pages/funky/productView.asp?ID=1162&SID=35

The McDuck: "Duck under my kilt!"
Presented in a matching box with clear dome window.
Each duck measures 100 x 80 x 90mm. PVC construction.

Not suitable for children under 36 months.

[SusieP]

Exactly! I saw the gold ring among all the garbage.

Gollum, is that you?????

My preciousssssss.

Actually,I think Gollum is Jeff.Right now he has the Ring.

I think Neal is Gollum .... or maybe a hobbit.

I say that humorously, but in all seriousness, we might look back at some of these business decisions some years from now and realize just how much goodwill toward Journey was squandered for short-term gains.

Neal's feet aren't big enough to be a Hobbit.

And as has been said earlier, I really don't think the bulk of Journey concert-goers will have any idea what has just gone down.

Any squandered goodwill and any respect lost towards them will be from the fans - like us- who post on firums such as MR. And I think we are in the minority.
So they will get away with it.



For what it's worth, I think what WILL hurt them [even if only a little] will be JSS's success. His fan base had already grown when Journey fans who hadn't heard of him got into him. Now, people who feel outraged on his behalf will probably buy more of his CD's and go to see him live. So his fan base will be bigger than it would have been because of this situation.

If they DID can him because they were experiencing 'professional jealousy' then, that will really piss them off.
But if they canned him because they really felt he wasn't right for Journey, then hopefully they will be happy for him.
Either way, JSS wins.

[SusieP]

OMG!!!

http://www.totally-funky.co.uk/pages/funky/productView.asp?ID=1162&SID=35

The McDuck: "Duck under my kilt!"
Presented in a matching box with clear dome window.
Each duck measures 100 x 80 x 90mm. PVC construction.

Not suitable for children under 36 months.

Shame he's said 'no more rubber toys.'
That one is pretty suitable. I think.

[styxman]

OMG!!!

http://www.totally-funky.co.uk/pages/funky/productView.asp?ID=1162&SID=35

The McDuck: "Duck under my kilt!"
Presented in a matching box with clear dome window.
Each duck measures 100 x 80 x 90mm. PVC construction.

Not suitable for children under 36 months.

Shame he's said 'no more rubber toys.'
That one is pretty suitable. I think.

Holy Fuck Susie, you ain't never gonna let this duck thing go are ya! A scottish duck..cool
Laura, the secretary is an upstanding person, I'm trying to get her to go down on her knees but she's not havin' it

As for movin' on, I think that's what the topic is about...I have, ain't interested in current Journey at all and most certainly not interested in discussin' it anymore, regardless of who joins, they're washed up...I'm just waiting for a Perry solo project anytime in the next 15 years...I've a lot of patience. I need new music to listen to not the same old 80's back catalogue.....I'm just tired of it. I rather see DDY in concert than Journey, never thought I'd say that

[SusieP]

OMG!!!

http://www.totally-funky.co.uk/pages/funky/productView.asp?ID=1162&SID=35

The McDuck: "Duck under my kilt!"
Presented in a matching box with clear dome window.
Each duck measures 100 x 80 x 90mm. PVC construction.

Not suitable for children under 36 months.

Shame he's said 'no more rubber toys.'
That one is pretty suitable. I think.

Holy Fuck Susie, you ain't never gonna let this duck thing go are ya! A scottish duck..cool
Laura, the secretary is an upstanding person, I'm trying to get her to go down on her knees but she's not havin' it

As for movin' on, I think that's what the topic is about...I have, ain't interested in current Journey at all and most certainly not interested in discussin' it anymore, regardless of who joins, they're washed up...I'm just waiting for a Perry solo project anytime in the next 15 years...I've a lot of patience. I need new music to listen to not the same old 80's back catalogue.....I'm just tired of it. I rather see DDY in concert than Journey, never thought I'd say that

Once and for all will you accept that Perry Como is never making another album.




[P.S. I had let the duck subject drop, until I saw those while looking for Wellington boots yesterday. Yes, the floods are getting closer to SusieP's neck of the woods. ]

[Henley]

I’ve seen arguments, aggression, threats, racism, discrimination etc representing some of the worst of human endeavours played out on these forums, with hardly an eyebrow raised.

It is only this fishbowl that the internet creates that allows ‘fan’atical followers of any band to see, debate and question every move more or less as it happens.

Yet most people seem to have made assumptions or are speculating wildly. I remember not 12 months ago seeing similar assumptions and speculation and comments about Steve Augeri that people are now backtracking on.
IMarty

Articulate and well thought out post. It is a disappointing time for some understandably. To turn this frustration into a free for all insult-fest against each other is ridiculous and counter-productive. Life isn't fair, that's a given.
I trust Jeff appreciated all the support and well wishes he received at the time this happened. I bet he also wants to get on with his life and career and not dwell incessantly on this disappointment. I'm sure it would be gratifying to him to see his fans shift gears with him.

[squirt1]

All I can say is that I did go to see Jeff. He was a talented musician/writer who got the crowd into the music. That was a real accomplishment considering their previous debacle w Augeri. They have the behavior of teenagers and are just below zero in my book. So I won't buy or attend anymore. Marty should reopen BT. I want a front row seat for that one. And, hey band, no amount of time will take this away. Has time healed the Perry firing? Idiots !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jrnysc]

No that is not. I had asked on here that day if anyone knew who that may be, or could they get the IP address. No one ever responded that I saw. There again, I believe in truth and fairness. I have no idea if it was legit or not. I can only say it gave you the sense it was someone close to the situation, responding to Dean's accusations, and it did not stay but a few minutes, and it disappeared. I tried to get some others to read it and see what they thought, and it was gone that quick before we could even get back there to read it.

I cant remember which thread it was in but Andrew responded about this situation. Apparently the poster on the blog also signed up here & he was able to look up the IP address & check it w/the blog poster (I assume thru Deano). He connected it (somehow) w/a long time BT poster. He knew it was a fake post on the blog, someone looking to stir up trouble. I dont blame Deano for erasing it after he found this out.

Does that help ease ur doubts about this situation any?

I just want the truth. That is all I can say.

[jrnysc]

All I can say is that I did go to see Jeff. He was a talented musician/writer who got the crowd into the music. That was a real accomplishment considering their previous debacle w Augeri. They have the behavior of teenagers and are just below zero in my book. So I won't buy or attend anymore. Marty should reopen BT. I want a front row seat for that one. And, hey band, no amount of time will take this away. Has time healed the Perry firing? Idiots !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Am I one of the idiots? If so, perhaps you should look at when I joined here, and when you joined here.

[treetopovskaya]

i'm moving on but i'm still upset. grr...

[Matthew]

grr...

That wasn't very menacing, Treetopovsksaya.....

[JH'sTXfan]

They are human, they have lives to live, livelihoods to worry about and like all humans they make mistakes. Yes, they made a *big* mistake here, in my opinion, but it’s their life. Perhaps we all need to get lives of our own. These sort of hirings and firings have gone on since the first days of rock’n’roll. It’s a cutthroat business and always has been, but usually people outside the immediate band and management are none the wiser. It is only this fishbowl that the internet creates that allows ‘fan’atical followers of any band to see, debate and question every move more or less as it happens.
...
But does he need to be put on a pedestal, as seems to be happening here? I’m sure even Jeff would agree that Idol worship can be unhealthy, as it places unrealistic expectations on the person being worshipped. Jeff is human too - he has made mistakes in the past and will doubtless make more in the future. And when he does, will he be vilified the way Journey is being right now? I think part of the reason there is so much hatred towards the band right now is an indication of just how high a pedestal they had been placed upon.

I don’t condone anything that Journey may or may not have done here, but what’s happened has happened. Endless debating is not going to reverse the events of the past few weeks. It’s time to move on IMHO. Sorry if this post sounds pretentious or condescending – it’s not meant to, but my writing style means that is often how it is interpreted.

Marty

Thank you Marty. Like water off a ducks back...a rubber one.

[squirt1]

Jrnysc- What does when I joined here have to do with anything? My family is raised and I have more time the last few yrs. I have bought Journey cd's and attended Journey concerts since the late 70's. Were you even born yet? Plus, I was calling the band idiots ! Anyone that walks away from a real chance to be relevant again at their age are idiots ! Even more so since 80's music is getting popular again.

[jrnysc]

Jrnysc- What does when I joined here have to do with anything? My family is raised and I have more time the last few yrs. I have bought Journey cd's and attended Journey concerts since the late 70's. Were you even born yet? Plus, I was calling the band idiots ! Anyone that walks away from a real chance to be relevant again at their age are idiots ! Even more so since 80's music is getting popular again.

I wasn't trying to be personal. Did not know who you were referring too. Yes, I was born in 70. Im simply saying I have been HERE a long time. Im not a BT'r. If you KNOW the band are idiots, I respect that. I wasn't there, so I don't know. That is all I'm saying.

[squirt1]

jrnysc- Ok good, all is fine. I never call people names here. Well, maybe after I have been attacked but usually not even then. Look at the track record. 1st Neal DID NOT want Perry in the band and Herbie insisted because they were dying. Then after Perry joins all of a sudden huge hits radio play, record sales and I think some tours sold 2 million tickets. They were playing stadiums ! I think the Rose Bowl sold out 5 consecutive nights. They accomplished nothing much w Augeri and Jeff gave us fans a small chance at someone who could help us forget SP. Oops forget NEVER, but ease our pain. But those idiots blew that to smitherines in a very timely fashion. Now, I choose to let them twist in the wind. They think this will blow over.

[ohsherrie]

Impressive post Marty. You make a lot of good, rational points and what you say should be possible, but in messageboard reality it doesn't work.

I haven't read every post in this thread because I just don't have time, so if I repeat something someone else has already said, I'm sorry.

Why would we be expected to be over our anger and resentment over what just happened to Jeff when we haven't let go of the bitterness over Perry yet. I don't mean just the Perry - 'heads, 'loons, or whatever either. His voice and character has been dissected and demeaned on the Journey boards for 8 or 9 yrs by the very people who said they had "moved on" with Journey in '98. They obviously haven't moved on from their bitterness at Perry though.

But now that it's Frig's and Fro's characters and motives that are being picked apart and stomped on we should just get over what they did to Jeff two weeks ago?

If it was in the nature of internet fandom to get over it and move on neither Perry nor Augeri would have become equally hot topics of conversation along with Jeff for the last two weeks in relation to this last fiasco.

Not saying that's a good or a bad thing, just that it's the way it is.

[Red13JoePa]

messageboard reality

Oxymoron or is there such a thing?

[JH'sTXfan]

messageboard reality

Oxymoron or is there such a thing?

Sounds like pimple cream

[Rick]

messageboard reality

Oxymoron or is there such a thing?

Sounds like pimple cream

LMAO!!

[ohsherrie]

messageboard reality

Oxymoron or is there such a thing?

Well, maybe I should have said "reality of messageboard behaviour".

[(Crazy)Dulce Lady]

grr...

That wasn't very menacing, Treetopovsksaya.....

I agree with tree. grrr. that's all we can muster cuz we have moved on.

btw, Matthew--I LOVE Stephen Stills. saw him in concert in high school and I can still sing every word he has ever written to this day. thanks for the reminder.

back to topic. move forward. don't look back.

[strangegrey]

But now that it's Frig's and Fro's characters and motives that are being picked apart and stomped on we should just get over what they did to Jeff two weeks ago?

Personally, I think it's very easy for people that are either cursed with the ability to seperate the musician from the character...or those that are unwiling to look at the truth.

If you're someone that can actually look at a musician (*especially* someone that writes these songs) and say "the way they conduct themselves IRL should have no bearing...it's still good music and they're still great players" You're lucky. Wait, I don't really mean that. To be able to seperate this isn't good fortune...it's really bad fortune for you as the listener.... because then you're not getting everything you can out of the music....and I sincerely mean that. To be able to feel the emotion of a guitar solo like Whos Cryin Now or to really get the desperation in Perrys voice on any given song, you have to believe that they as people EMOTE the emotion in their music....and for you to believe that they are emoting, you need to believe there's an intrinsic good in the person behind that emotion...because without any of those elements, it's just brush strokes on a kanvas, nothing more nothing less. So I feel sorry for the people that seem to be able to seperate their actions from their music. Because you're not getting ALL the music. You're just pulling a smattering of qualities out of it that you like...but you're not GETTING it. The day you start hearing music emoted to you...you will find it next to impossible to seperate the man from the music. A good musician channels the emotion to you through the music. If you know the musician on the other end is not genuine, how on earth can you have an emotional connection with the song?!?! It's impossible!

As for those that are unwilling to look at the truth, you are either subject to the above musician/music disconnect....or you're simply lost from reality that you refuse to see that the people that wrote all these songs that stamped your life, were liars, frauds and frankly, full of shit. If you're unwilling to see the truth...and at the same time, do not have this flaw of being able to seperate art from the artist....then you'll never see the light. Fucka and Fro are *hoping* that there's enough of you out there to support them and their allimony checks....even in light of the mass exodus of fans that do see music as it should...and have since walked away from the band.


To a great deal of us...it's not a case of "Moving On"....Anger will eventually fade...and some of us might be able to actually stomach a journey song here or there in the future. But the fact of the matter is that the band's legacy is shattered...completely. The band's magic, has not faded. It's all out been cast aside.....

To anyone that feels the band can retain any of that, after the actions of the past 6 years....you and the band deserve eachother....and I'm expecting someone to take offense to that. Go ahead....the fact of the matter is that if you are willing to let the wool get pulled over your eyes by Fro and Friga.....you deserve to have your wallets sucked dry by them.


It's not a case of "Moving On" unless you mean "moving away".

This band is dead to me...and so many other fans. We're just still very angry that it had to die this way instead of respectfully and gracefully....

[*Laura]

Why would we be expected to be over our anger and resentment over what just happened to Jeff when we haven't let go of the bitterness over Perry yet. I don't mean just the Perry - 'heads, 'loons, or whatever either. His voice and character has been dissected and demeaned on the Journey boards for 8 or 9 yrs by the very people who said they had "moved on" with Journey in '98. They obviously haven't moved on from their bitterness at Perry though.

I guess it's a different kind of anger,Sherrie.What happened with SP is one thing - and his history with Journey is WAY different than Jeff's - and what happened to Jeff is another.
In SP's case, "moving on" is a hard thing to do because he will always be Journey's vocal trademark.Even the fans that have been ripping him apart over the years know that there will never be another one like him.Maybe that's exactly the reason of their anger.Perry will never be forgotten.
Hell,from the recent events we can see that not even Journey themselves can move on!

In Jeff's case,the anger will diminish because he'll be working on his own and will sure come up with great fresh music for the fans.
His history with Journey was too short and maybe it was better that way.I was telling someone that the damage would have been a lot worse if Jeff would have been fired after giving much more to the band - ideas,studio work,recordings,etc...I think his fans (old and new) will move on after a while and leave all this anger behind when Jeff will re-launch his career.

Because of the way Jeff was treated,the level of the current bitterness is understandable.
At least Steve Perry got a phone call...you know?

[conversationpc]

If you're someone that can actually look at a musician (*especially* someone that writes these songs) and say "the way they conduct themselves IRL should have no bearing...it's still good music and they're still great players" You're lucky. Wait, I don't really mean that. To be able to seperate this isn't good fortune...it's really bad fortune for you as the listener.... because then you're not getting everything you can out of the music....and I sincerely mean that. To be able to feel the emotion of a guitar solo like Whos Cryin Now or to really get the desperation in Perrys voice on any given song, you have to believe that they as people EMOTE the emotion in their music....and for you to believe that they are emoting, you need to believe there's an intrinsic good in the person behind that emotion...because without any of those elements, it's just brush strokes on a kanvas, nothing more nothing less. So I feel sorry for the people that seem to be able to seperate their actions from their music. Because you're not getting ALL the music. You're just pulling a smattering of qualities out of it that you like...but you're not GETTING it. The day you start hearing music emoted to you...you will find it next to impossible to seperate the man from the music. A good musician channels the emotion to you through the music. If you know the musician on the other end is not genuine, how on earth can you have an emotional connection with the song?!?! It's impossible!

As for those that are unwilling to look at the truth, you are either subject to the above musician/music disconnect....or you're simply lost from reality that you refuse to see that the people that wrote all these songs that stamped your life, were liars, frauds and frankly, full of shit.

Neal and/or Jon may not be the greatest of people in the world, but that doesn't mean they didn't feel genuine emotions at the time they wrote or recorded those songs. That doesn't mean that I or anyone doesn't "get it".

[NealIsGod]

At least Steve Perry got a phone call...you know?

THAT'S why he hates getting calls!

[strangegrey]

Neal and/or Jon may not be the greatest of people in the world, but that doesn't mean they didn't feel genuine emotions at the time they wrote or recorded those songs. That doesn't mean that I or anyone doesn't "get it".

Believe what you want...you're entitled. I don't think there's shred of genuine honesty left in them...and as a result, the music doesn't mean anything to me anymore. Herbie effectively said as much himself, in that big interview he did. He just feel the connection...and he's probably seen the bad karma, bullshit, crap more than ANYONE.

After a while, you simply can't feel anything in the music because it came from such reprehensible characters.

[CatEyes]

At least Steve Perry got a phone call...you know?

THAT'S why he hates getting calls!

rothflmao!!!

He thought it was Cain again hehehehe

[MartyMoffatt]

Hmm interesting thoughts Frank, but I’m not sure I agree with you. I listen to a piece of music for what it means to ME, not what I think it might have meant to it’s creator, or base my enjoyment on whether or not that person is a saint. In fact for probably at least 95% of the music I’ve heard and enjoy listening to I have absolutely no knowledge of the person or persons behind the music whatsoever. And I don’t intend to do a character assessment of every artist just so I can listen to their stuff and get sentimental about it with a clear conscience.

I don’t think that lessens my ability to enjoy the music to its fullest. Every piece of music is a performance – it’s artificial, not real life, so divorcing the artist from his art is quite simple in my mind. If I look at a painting, I don’t dwell on the troubled psyche of the artist. I look for what the painting means to me, and I appreciate (as does the artist) that everybody will see the painting differently.

Now there are a lot of very good and thoughtful points made throughout this thread, and I’ve enjoyed reading the different points of view. I appreciate that people will react to the current situation in many different ways, depending on their character, their assessment of what happened, their history with the band, maybe even inherent prejudices. I’m not saying that we should all move on with Journey and forget or forgive all that’s happened. For some, that is exactly what they’ll do, for others they have already completely lost all interest in the band. Some will never move on.

Between these extremes there are still all manner of emotions. For many there is a simmering bitterness, hatred or simple grieving process to go through still and perhaps these messageboards are helping with that process. I just wondered if the constant bitterness and open anger expressed was actually prolonging it instead of helping it.

Marty

[conversationpc]

Believe what you want...you're entitled. I don't think there's shred of genuine honesty left in them...and as a result, the music doesn't mean anything to me anymore.

Believe what you want...you're entitled.

Herbie effectively said as much himself, in that big interview he did. He just feel the connection...and he's probably seen the bad karma, bullshit, crap more than ANYONE.

Good for Herbie but his feelings on the matter don't mean squat to me.

After a while, you simply can't feel anything in the music because it came from such reprehensible characters.

As I said before, because they're reprehensible characters doesn't mean that others who know about it can't find their music meaningful to them. If you can't or won't get around that then more power to you but don't try to tell me that I have a "musician/music disconnect", that I'm lost from reality, or that I'm "unwilling to see the truth". I'm as upset as anyone over what those morons have done to the band but, eventually, I'll be able to enjoy the music again.

[Saint John]

Neal and/or Jon may not be the greatest of people in the world, but that doesn't mean they didn't feel genuine emotions at the time they wrote or recorded those songs. That doesn't mean that I or anyone doesn't "get it".

Believe what you want...you're entitled. I don't think there's shred of genuine honesty left in them...and as a result, the music doesn't mean anything to me anymore. Herbie effectively said as much himself, in that big interview he did. He just feel the connection...and he's probably seen the bad karma, bullshit, crap more than ANYONE.

After a while, you simply can't feel anything in the music because it came from such reprehensible characters.

That's unfortunate Frank. I respect the heck out of what you're saying, but I just can't agree. The music, specifically the catalog, is protected in a special place and time. It's untouchable. I have such fond memories to go with each of those songs that no dastardly act can tarnish them in any way. They're MINE, and I refuse to let those two greedy backstabbers pry into the special times in my life. Besides, Steve Perry deserves better. He gave us everything. Please remember that.