? For All Journey Followers And Experts

[T-TIME]

here is a question that i just can't get past. high majority of posters seem to keep refering back to neil and cain having these huge egos and that is what caused the demise of jss. why would these two make such a decision that is so against what the fans are diggin? wouldn't the egos want the credit for making such a clutch decision bring jss on board and taking them to new heights? something else has to be bigger. lead singers always get the most attention. they are the front man. anyone in front of journey (past or present) will always command the attention. good or bad. they have done it the right way for so many years, it's hard to believe they would suddenly forget how.

[Soto All The Way]

here is a question that i just can't get past. high majority of posters seem to keep refering back to neil and cain having these huge egos and that is what caused the demise of jss. why would these two make such a decision that is so against what the fans are diggin? wouldn't the egos want the credit for making such a clutch decision bring jss on board and taking them to new heights? something else has to be bigger. lead singers always get the most attention. they are the front man. anyone in front of journey (past or present) will always command the attention. good or bad. they have done it the right way for so many years, it's hard to believe they would suddenly forget how.

First learn how to fuking type. U place capitols at the beginning of each sentence. I got a head ache reading your post....

Two.....U answered your own question.....JSS got bigger and better responses than the two fucking morons on either sie of him.........POOOOF!!!! He's Gone!!!


e-

[Rhiannon]

There's more to this story than anyone uninvolved needs to be concerned with.
Speculation is pointless, useless, and the repetitive questioning of the same subject is lame.
Next.

[T-TIME]

here is a question that i just can't get past. high majority of posters seem to keep refering back to neil and cain having these huge egos and that is what caused the demise of jss. why would these two make such a decision that is so against what the fans are diggin? wouldn't the egos want the credit for making such a clutch decision bring jss on board and taking them to new heights? something else has to be bigger. lead singers always get the most attention. they are the front man. anyone in front of journey (past or present) will always command the attention. good or bad. they have done it the right way for so many years, it's hard to believe they would suddenly forget how.

First learn how to fuking type. U place capitols at the beginning of each sentence. I got a head ache reading your post....

Two.....U answered your own question.....JSS got bigger and better responses than the two fucking morons on either sie of him.........POOOOF!!!! He's Gone!!!


e-

1. that was so necessary. proof read your own post before bust mine
2. take a tylenol you fucking bitch

[Playitloudforme]

It's NEAL, not Neil.

[Little Lenny]

Who knows what goes on behind closed doors? No one will know unless they are told.
However, I do think you answered your own qustion T-Time. Jeff has been popular in Europe for a long time, and I think when he joined Journey they didn't realise his full potential. He's more than just a singer, he actually participates with the audience, he is a real showman, and unfortunately I dont think that was something that was taken into the equation...

Apologies to anyone reading this message if there are any grammatical or spelling mistakes, I ahve a learning difficulty. Sometimes people make mistakes because of that, maybe something we should all bare in mind.

[bionic]

here is a question that i just can't get past. high majority of posters seem to keep refering back to neil and cain having these huge egos and that is what caused the demise of jss. why would these two make such a decision that is so against what the fans are diggin? wouldn't the egos want the credit for making such a clutch decision bring jss on board and taking them to new heights? something else has to be bigger. lead singers always get the most attention. they are the front man. anyone in front of journey (past or present) will always command the attention. good or bad. they have done it the right way for so many years, it's hard to believe they would suddenly forget how.

Much has been said since Jeff was let go,many rumours of who is in line to take the spot have surfaced, my take on all this is basically they are living in the shadow of Perry still. Much has been said of the fact that Perry controlled the band well maybe he did and to great effect i feel.Lets be honest since he left they have done everything wrong, they hired Augeri because he sounded like Perry and even looked like him,but he was nearly 40 and his voice was in its twilight years,within two years he was having problems and then he went to tape,Arrival was a good record Red13 average and Generations had moments,then Augeri was gone.Jeff came in and saved the day but he is still not that close to Perry as thay would like,they have to protect the legacy blah blah.Jeff is out and maybe Jeremy the tribute band singer is in,they want another Perry,they are not concerned with new releases only the shows make the money now.
I feel they have given up on the future to hold on to the past.
Regarding the bands ego's no matter how big their ego's are they would have Perry back in an instant, its more about the sound of the band and some were along the line they felt Jeff was not right for the Journey sound and the Journey sound is what makes them money!
I dont like what has happened as they have tested the fans these past years and to be honest i am not sure if i care anymore

[rdekker]

JSS was not what the fans wanted, it's only a handful of fans that regularly post on these forums. The majority of the so called 'fans' that visit the concerts don't even know that Perry left and they expect journey to sound like Journey, therefor this decision was made.

[Ms_M]

[JrnySuxBalls]

JSS was not what the fans wanted, it's only a handful of fans that regularly post on these forums.

Best reviews in years, and record deal negotiations because of JSS.

But, sadly too ROCK for those county fairs & Branson Missouri.

[SusieP]

JSS was not what the fans wanted, it's only a handful of fans that regularly post on these forums. The majority of the so called 'fans' that visit the concerts don't even know that Perry left and they expect journey to sound like Journey, therefor this decision was made.

I'd go along with this theory.
The fans on here aren't really representative of the thousands who buy Journey tickets.
It would be nice to think we are, but I think we may be deluding ourselves.

[Eric]

JSS was not what the fans wanted, it's only a handful of fans that regularly post on these forums. The majority of the so called 'fans' that visit the concerts don't even know that Perry left and they expect journey to sound like Journey, therefor this decision was made.

You are underestimating the free promo work the hard core online fans have done on behalf of Journey the past 9 years. And, again...when I go to a show I bring along a group of friends. That would be a group they lose, not one person.

In will give them a chance if they release new music though.

[GollyWally]

The band and their management are handling the current debacle in the same manner they always have--a polished nonsensical statement, followed by a deafening silence that spawns the acrimony of their most loyal fans.

In regards to JSS taking Journey to "new heights," the operative word is "new," and not "greater." A JSS-fronted Journey would certainly have been new, but the band will NEVER achieve the multi-platinum and touring sucess they had with Perry. That ship has sailed.

[*Laura]

[Clasicrockldy]

Who knows what goes on behind closed doors? No one will know unless they are told.
However, I do think you answered your own qustion T-Time. Jeff has been popular in Europe for a long time, and I think when he joined Journey they didn't realise his full potential. He's more than just a singer, he actually participates with the audience, he is a real showman, and unfortunately I dont think that was something that was taken into the equation...

Frack (Neal) knew already Jeff's full potential, since Frack worked and toured with Jeff during the Soul Sirkus days, so I don't buy that argument. Journey got the best reviews from the critics in years !

Frick and Frack should of kept Jeff in there. They could of still done the dirty dozen, plus do new music. Frick and Frack's egos always get in the way, and for them now to think of their legacy, it is a little too late for that.

[Red13JoePa]

First learn how to fuking type. U place capitols at the beginning of each sentence. I got a head ache reading your post....

Two.....U answered your own question.....JSS got bigger and better responses than the two fucking morons on either sie of him.........POOOOF!!!! He's Gone!!!


e-

I think the poster's point was "Haven't they been used to being sort of a singer centric band their whole careers?

NOW it bugs them to the point where they can't take it anymore, in their 50s when most dudes attain a clarity of thought and peace of mind with their given lots with maturity aquired with age? Isn't that one of the biggest praises of the Trial By Fire album, the showcasing of a band in maturity?

It's not that damn simple.

[NoMoreTails]

I think there's definitely something other than the ego bs behind this decision. Maybe Jeff was too close to a number of fans, this being a band that has distanced themselves from the fans even in an internet age where other bands have been interactive. Maybe something as simple as Assoff saying he'd book the band in fairs, etc rather than shed or arena packages unless they had someone as "Perry" as they can find, doesn't Irv now hold considerable interest in the company that controls all the best venues? Maybe JSS was too assertive, they supposedly avoided Chalfant for that reason. Journey letting JSS go because of something as silly as his getting attention from the audience?? Greed is a much bigger concern for these guys than ego, remember these are the guys that would likely take Perry back regardless of the state of his voice. If NS and JC are concerned about being the center of attention, that's something they'd never consider.

[Red13JoePa]

If NS and JC are concerned about being the center of attention, that's something they'd never consider.

Nope.

It's an easy canned reason to explain what right now remains the inexplicable.

[CatEyes]

.... doesn't Irv now hold considerable interest in the company that controls all the best venues?

Yes he does .

I have posted about it previously .... and the company had already bought out HOB to have smaller venues which Irv can use for his artists that do not fill the larger ones.

Cat

[Red13JoePa]

Damn, TNC was right again. Irv has MEGA power and pull.

[Rhiannon]

Good one Michelle!

[Little Lenny]

Who knows what goes on behind closed doors? No one will know unless they are told.
However, I do think you answered your own qustion T-Time. Jeff has been popular in Europe for a long time, and I think when he joined Journey they didn't realise his full potential. He's more than just a singer, he actually participates with the audience, he is a real showman, and unfortunately I dont think that was something that was taken into the equation...

Frack (Neal) knew already Jeff's full potential, since Frack worked and toured with Jeff during the Soul Sirkus days, so I don't buy that argument. Journey got the best reviews from the critics in years !

Frick and Frack should of kept Jeff in there. They could of still done the dirty dozen, plus do new music. Frick and Frack's egos always get in the way, and for them now to think of their legacy, it is a little too late for that.

It wasn't an argument, it was a thought. I know full well he (jeff) toured with Soul Sirkus, but even so sometimes people can still underestimate the potential of people around uthem, it happens all the time it is called human nature.

I agree totally with you about keeping Jeff as the singer, he has a magnificent voice in my opinion, as well as a briliant stage presence. The point of my thought was to high light the fact that no one really knows why this happened, in other words what we all think is , and will be, nothing more than mere speculation until otherwise proven to be the fact.

[CatEyes]

Damn, TNC was right again. Irv has MEGA power and pull.

From my fave bob lefsetz http://www.lefsetz.com

http://lefsetz.com/wordpress/index.php/archives/2007/05/15/jockeying-for-position/

Lefsetz Letter Archives Subscribe to the Lefsetz Letter
Oh, PeyoteIn My LifeJockeying For Position
Who’s going to win the music business war?

It certainly won’t be Sony, or BMG. Sony wants out of the music business. As does BMG. Unfortunately, no one can meet their price, so they’re holding for now. But they want to get out. Oh, there’s an expansion into music publishing, but no non-traditional ventures are being contemplated. It appears they’re going to run the ship until Clive Davis dies or becomes too frail to work, then they’re going to freak out. As for Rick Rubin’s recent deal with Columbia? If only you could sell CDs, if only online weren’t about singles. If only revenue were growing instead of collapsing.

Then there’s Universal Music. With the biggest market share, operating in a vacuum. Doug Morris and Jimmy Iovine wanted to be innovators at the turn of the century, with the Farm Club and PressPlay, but after being burned they’ve changed strategy. Now it’s all about the check. They’re sitting upon a huge copyright asset, if you want to distribute music in the new world, you’ve got to go through them, and you’ve got to pay for the privilege. Planning for the future, insuring their place in the coming landscape? Not really an issue. Especially since the OWNER of the operation wants out, but like Sony and BMG can’t find anybody to sell to, not at a reasonable price.

Then comes EMI. EMI has Ames, but not much else. Roger Ames knows where every dollar in a record deal is buried. He’s what Warner needs. But EMI does not have the assets of Warner. EMI is in survival mode.

And then there’s Warner. Unlike his compatriots owning major labels, Richard Parsons decided to get out, he didn’t want to weather the storm, he wanted his money now, before the asset went down in value even further. So, the company was sold to private equity interests. Although Warner is embracing digital strategies, there’s no overall music business play. Oh, they want to strong-arm their artists into giving them rights, but there’s no desire to truly get into the touring or management businesses. Hell, their interest in Azoff’s company was just sold to Barry Diller.

Irving Azoff. Is it now his time? Is this his David Geffen moment? Now that DreamWorks has failed, now that Geffen is a billionaire without portfolio, is Irving plotting to take over the music business?

Well we read that Jeff Kwatinetz was taking over the music business. But Firm clients come and go, as do their managers, Jeff’s always striking up innovative record deals that generate no heat. His moment appears gone.

And then there are our friends up north, Terry McBride and his Nettwerk crew. They’re the ones talking innovation, but that’s all in service to their artists, they’re managers through and through. As are their east coast counterparts at Q Prime. Cliff and Peter experienced a debacle in venue ownership, they’ve now got Snow Patrol and Jimmy Page, but they’re hands-on managers, they’re not interested in the tectonic plates, tilting the world at large.

But Michael Rapino is.

Michael Rapino is younger than most of the household names. He hasn’t made his fortune yet. This is his time to make a move. He’s sold what doesn’t interest him, and bought what does. He’s got not only Trunk, but MusicToday. And suddenly, he’s in ticketing.

But isn’t that the domain of TicketMaster?

The coming music story is how new players akin to Microsoft will enter the sphere and eat up market share. Computer-savvy tots with their ears to the ground, who know what the public really wants. No deals will be made with majors, if there are record companies at all, you presently don’t know their names. But these acts WILL have to play live. And who will control that arena?

Yes, right now we’ve got a giant struggle over the live business. Who will be the gatekeeper, who will cash the check. The record companies are also-rans. And the online distributors? With licensing so complicated, on such onerous terms, smart money is staying out, there’s no movement in that world, it’s been ceded to iTunes.

But in the physical world, we’ve got a jockeying for position heretofore unseen.

And it all comes down to Irving.

Is Irving just in it for the check? Or does he want the power?

Who knows. But if you want to know what happens in the future, watch him.

Irving assembled a management powerhouse to neutralize the labels, to prevent them from dictating to him. FRONTLINE’S policy would be of equal weight to the label’s policy.

But you’ve got to look back further. To AEG. Irving Azoff built AEG. By resuscitating ConcertsWest. Eventually Irving sold his interest to Anschutz, and Randy Phillips took the day to day reins, but Irving’s got a special place in their board room. He’s entitled to favors. And he returns favors. That Live Nation doesn’t get.

But Live Nation needs Irving’s acts. Irving’s partner Howard Kaufman has kept the sheds alive for years. Albeit at high prices, but you’ve got to have SOMEBODY to bring in the customer.

Can you say Def Leppard/Journey? Can you say Chicago/Earth, Wind & Fire/this year’s oldie? Can you say Fleetwood Mac?

Michael Rapino cannot afford to piss off Irving Azoff. Now more than ever, Irving’s got the biggest stable of acts, and concert promotion is all about the acts.

But now Irving has made Rapino’s life even worse. He’s gotten in bed with the thorn in Rapino’s side, TicketMaster.

Oh, there’s been a link forever. With the name Larry Solters. Yes, Irving’s positively old school, he knows it’s about relationships, and information, and he’s got both.

So now what?

Well, IAC/TicketMaster bought the Thomas H. Lee/Bain stake. But Warner’s still got a piece of Frontline. Is this significant? Well, maybe to the point that Irving’s got a special relationship with Warner. At least until he gets frustrated and makes their life hell.

But it’s Irving who controls the landscape now. Suddenly, Irving’s a linchpin in Warner, Live Nation, IAC/TicketMaster… Suddenly, the brilliant poker player has more cards than anybody. How’s he going to play them? What does he WANT?

Warner, Live Nation and TicketMaster are fighting for their lives. Good idea to line up with TicketMaster, kind of like Sirius buying Howard Stern. If Rapino sells his own tickets, TicketMaster is fucked. But if Irving’s in between, does TicketMaster keep its deal?

And Irving controls the only thing that counts. The talent. It’s not like movies or TV, you can’t create a new roster out of thin air.

Maybe Irving just wants a check. He’s certainly sold for a price in the past. Or maybe he wants to control the business. If not in name, then reality.

One thing is clear. The wagons are circling, we’re in the final throes of consolidation. Everyone thought it was about the labels, but really it’s about the gig. Who controls the gig.

Right now, Irving Azoff controls the gig.

By: bob | 2007/05/15 | Music Business | Trackback | Comments [RSS 2.0]

Many in the business and many fans as well do not like Irving. He prides himself on his nic in the the biz "The Poison Pygmy" . One of his most notable quotes is (this is from memory) "I am sick and tired of my artists taking 85% of my money".

Gotta lov'm

Cat

[Socratic Methodist]

Couldn't this be included in EVERY thread in the past 30 days?

[Rhiannon]

Couldn't this be included in EVERY thread in the past 30 days?

Not every thread... but I'll say 95% of them.

I'm shocked people keep asking the same questions instead of reading the answers to when they were asked the first 40 times.

[ohsherrie]

Couldn't this be included in EVERY thread in the past 30 days?

Not every thread... but I'll say 95% of them.

I'm shocked people keep asking the same questions instead of reading the answers to when they were asked the first 40 times.

It's amazing isn't it? It's almost as if some people are afraid their comments may get lost in someone else's thread so the start one of their own.

[Rhiannon]

It's amazing isn't it? It's almost as if some people are afraid their comments may get lost in someone else's thread so the start one of their own.

I believe they call that douchebagging.

[Rick]

From my fave bob lefsetz http://www.lefsetz.com

Just signed up. Read some of his articles and he's great.

[Ms_M]

Good one Michelle!

Thanks!!

[lidobar]

First learn how to fuking type. U place capitols at the beginning of each sentence. I got a head ache reading your post....

e-

i don't believe in capitalism.