OT - The New Thread

[Socratic Methodist]

Hi Laura, thanks for responding....As always, I'm not attacking you.

I think the hilighted quote in your response is unsound. People are convicted on a daily basis for making assumptions on individual's mental states, and more specifically, 'intent'. Doctors who have never mudered anybody are called on to make a judgement on a person who HAS.

Non-military people are making judgements on the Iraq war. Supervisors are hired just for their supervisory skills, without knowledge of the actual job they are supervising. I don't think you have to walk a mile in anyone's shoes to have a take on things.

I think the 'mile in my shoes' defense(and that is what it is) is a defense mechanism people use when they are being questioned/challenged on a given issue. When they can't think of anything to say, and are uncomfortable. Justifying one's actions can be a bitch.

People just don't like being confronted on a decision they have made....especially when they are wrong.

I certainly didn't feel like I was attacked! My idea (the one you've highlighted) was that it is really difficult to fully understand the abortion issue from a woman's point of view,especially one that has actually experienced the fact.I haven't,nor I ever will,so all I can do is guess.
Sure,we can all understand the implications of abortion,people in charge can make laws or try to educate the masses,debates can go on and on...

See,I am not exactly trying to defend abortion,it's more trying to analyze the possible reasons why it happens.

I also promised myself not to analyze anything from Friday to Monday...

Ok, fair enough....but let me put it to you this way:

Why do athletes get such exorbinant amounts of money? Give up? Because they CAN.

Why do women get abortions? Because they CAN. If something isn't against the law, why not do it.

Enjoy your weekend! I promise not to analyze anything in the next 2 days, either....

[Red13JoePa]

I've never really understood the POV of an individual who shot another individual to death either.

Never walked a mile in their shoes or anything like that, so live and let live I guess. Kill the babies if you feel like it. It's inside YOUR body afterall, not mine.

Tell that to Al Pacino in Godfather II.

[ArnelRox]

Do you think pregnant women should be allowed to smoke 2 packs a day? Do you think a pregnant woman should be allowed to START a crack habit? Even though it could result in damage to the child?

Of course not. What person in their right mind would?

Yes, she was! Rape is illegal!

Um dude ur delusional. It becomes a crime AFTER it's committed. There is nothing to prevent a girl from her parent doing it to her. Or boy for that matter.

I could turn it around and say, "let's just make rape legal, then nothing will be wrong with it" That'd be ridiculous wouldn't it?

Huh? Please get those drugs u need!

Now you're trying to paint an innocent life as the abuser or the criminal!

I'm gonna quote Matthew here "Eh?" There's really nothing else to say to this.

[ArnelRox]

I think most women if they decided to have an abortion would do so very early in the pregnancy. However, there are some who feel they don't have complete choice unless they have that choice up to the point of birth. While many (including myself) have banged our heads against the wall trying to agree as to when life starts, I think most can agree that when it can obviously live outside of the mother's womb, it's a separate human being.

Very well said Greg.

[ArnelRox]

I understand that women considering an abortion for whatever reason go through real, powerful emotions and, for whatever reasons, they may decide to go through with it. I understand that women who become pregnant by rape or inces, may not want to go through with the pregnancy and that the decision one way or the other is excruciating. Even though I can't fully understand it, I acknowledge it.

However, the unborn child is not able to speak for himself/herself. Shouldn't he/she have rights also? Shouldn't someone be allowed to speak for them since they are not able to make decisions about their own body? Despite the fact that the unborn child's father may have been a raping, incestuous scumbag, does that mean the child should die for his/her father's sin? While it's important to not forget the situation that an unfortuante woman is in, it's also important not to forget the most innocent person of all who has no voice to speak for themselves.

Dave, I understand ur points here & I know & respect u greatly for all that u & ur wife have done. Please understand that in some situations, bringing a baby into the life it would have to live would not be ideal. & sometimes, adopting the child is not an option available due to the girl being underage & parents making decisions. I was a child of an extramarital affair & grew up in horrendous abuse. If I had the voice to speak for myself in the womb, I would have asked my mother to abort me rather than go thru the life I did.

(Of course, then u would all have missed out on the opportunity of having me to argue with!)

[Socratic Methodist]

I think most women if they decided to have an abortion would do so very early in the pregnancy. However, there are some who feel they don't have complete choice unless they have that choice up to the point of birth. While many (including myself) have banged our heads against the wall trying to agree as to when life starts, I think most can agree that when it can obviously live outside of the mother's womb, it's a separate human being.

Very well said Greg.

Ok, now we've entered the realm of metaphysics. Honestly, I thought we would get to this point sooner, but, oh well.

So now we think that life starts when the child can live outside of the mother's womb. Ok.

Let's look further into things that are - but really aren't untill they are 'tangible'.

Let's take intellectual property, for example:

Let's say a person invented something, and hasn't made a prototype yet. But tells a friend about the idea. Now does the 'idea' make it an invention, and therefore open to be 'stolen', or does it actually have to be made into said invention in order for it REALLY to exist - and stolen?

Does an invention have to live outside the brain to actually be more than just an idea?

See the problem? is an 'idea' a real thing? Is a fetus a person? Same issue.

[ArnelRox]

Why do women get abortions? Because they CAN. If something isn't against the law, why not do it.

But it's done in countries where it is still against the law. Ireland, for example. It was done long before it was ever legal & long before there were doctors to do it safely. Women drank concoctions centuries ago to end pregnancies.

[Socratic Methodist]

Why do women get abortions? Because they CAN. If something isn't against the law, why not do it.

But it's done in countries where it is still against the law. Ireland, for example. It was done long before it was ever legal & long before there were doctors to do it safely. Women drank concoctions centuries ago to end pregnancies.

True.

But you know what? I don't want to go to jail. So I don't commit any crimes.

Minus the exceptions we've talked about, if women didn't fuck around, they wouldn't have to have abortions. If a baby is not wanted, then they shouldn't screw around.

[ArnelRox]

But you know what? I don't want to go to jail. So I don't commit any crimes.

I don't think they throw u in jail for having an abortion in all those countries. The doctor, yes.

Minus the exceptions we've talked about, if women didn't fuck around, they wouldn't have to have abortions. If a baby is not wanted, then they shouldn't screw around.

U know that hits home w/me. I know u said "exceptions" but I didn't fuck around to get pregnant.

Also, I just want to add one thing. U seem to put all the onus on women here. Isn't it also fair to say that men should wrap up their dicks or not fuck around? It takes a woman AND a man to make a baby after all!

[Socratic Methodist]

But you know what? I don't want to go to jail. So I don't commit any crimes.

I don't think they throw u in jail for having an abortion in all those countries. The doctor, yes.

Minus the exceptions we've talked about, if women didn't fuck around, they wouldn't have to have abortions. If a baby is not wanted, then they shouldn't screw around.

U know that hits home w/me. I know u said "exceptions" but I didn't fuck around to get pregnant.

Also, I just want to add one thing. U seem to put all the onus on women here. Isn't it also fair to say that men should wrap up their dicks or not fuck around? It takes a woman AND a man to make a baby after all!

See this is the typical female response....you say it takes TWO people to make the baby, but the women's feelings are all that matter when the decision for abortion comes up. You can't have it BOTH ways. Either the father is in the entire process, or isn't a factor AT ALL.

So it takes a man AND a woman to make a child. But only a woman to KILL one? Is that what you are saying?

[ArnelRox]

See this is the typical female response....you say it takes TWO people to make the baby, but the women's feelings are all that matter when the decision for abortion comes up. You can't have it BOTH ways. Either the father is in the entire process, or isn't a factor AT ALL.

So it takes a man AND a woman to make a child. But only a woman to KILL one? Is that what you are saying?

Don't twist my words please. If a woman is raped, then it was not her decision to have sex, let alone get pregnant. In that situation, she has the right to decide what to do with the baby IMO. No I do not feel the father has a right to anything except life in prison getting raped by Bubba up his ass.

In a situation where a couple have sex & the woman gets pregnant, I do believe she should talk to the father about it if he's still in her life. If he has dumped her & moved on, then it's really none of his business, is it? This happened to a very good friend of mine. She got pregnant during their engagment. He dumped her & got married to someone else on the day she was in labor. 17 years later, he showed up wanting to see his son. Nice. He hadn't paid a penny for all those years. When he realized his son had major problems, he disappeared again. Oh wait, he did give him a whopping $20 during that meeting. Generous, huh?

On the other side of that coin, a very good male friend of mine was passionately in love w/a woman he was in a long-term relationship w/hoping to marry. She disappeared one day breaking his heart. Somehow, he found out that she had a baby & it took him several yrs & a lot of money to have the right to see his daughter. I don't think that's right either. He's a very good daddy.

But that's not really talking about abortion. If u notice, I have consistently talked about abortion when a woman is raped & how that applies.

[Socratic Methodist]

But you know what? I don't want to go to jail. So I don't commit any crimes.

I don't think they throw u in jail for having an abortion in all those countries. The doctor, yes.

Minus the exceptions we've talked about, if women didn't fuck around, they wouldn't have to have abortions. If a baby is not wanted, then they shouldn't screw around.

U know that hits home w/me. I know u said "exceptions" but I didn't fuck around to get pregnant.

Also, I just want to add one thing. U seem to put all the onus on women here. Isn't it also fair to say that men should wrap up their dicks or not fuck around? It takes a woman AND a man to make a baby after all!

I don't see how I was twisting your words when I was repsonding to this comment.....cause you were NOT talking about rape in this comment.

And I have one question for you? Have you listened to any of those bands yet?1 Whaddya watin' for, eh?

[scarygirl]

I agree with that. No matter my feelings on said subject, it always comes out as one sided, the oh, "if women didn't fuck around" argument.

But you know what? I don't want to go to jail. So I don't commit any crimes.

I don't think they throw u in jail for having an abortion in all those countries. The doctor, yes.

Minus the exceptions we've talked about, if women didn't fuck around, they wouldn't have to have abortions. If a baby is not wanted, then they shouldn't screw around.

U know that hits home w/me. I know u said "exceptions" but I didn't fuck around to get pregnant.

Also, I just want to add one thing. U seem to put all the onus on women here. Isn't it also fair to say that men should wrap up their dicks or not fuck around? It takes a woman AND a man to make a baby after all!

I don't see how I was twisting your words when I was repsonding to this comment.....cause you were NOT talking about rape in this comment.

And I have one question for you? Have you listened to any of those bands yet?1 Whaddya watin' for, eh?

[ohsherrie]

Men will aways think of women as no more than their whores, servants and incubators. Some of them love their whore and/or servant and/or incubator, but still they're are no more than what the man deems them to be.

If that son of a bitch puts a baby in there then she should have that baby even if it kills her. After all, she's already lived her life and had the privilege of being fucked and impregnated by him. What more could a simple whore, servant or incubator want?



Is that an extreme and unfair statement? Damn right it is. But it's no more extreme or unfair than having men decide what a woman should or should not have a right to do with her body. Men have no clue about it, so why should they have a say in it?

[Red13JoePa]

Why?

Well for one thing, it is not ONLY the woman's body at issue.