OT -Respect vs. Innocence

by **Socratic Methodist** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:24 am

Maybe this won't end up being a 'Hot topic', but I figured I'd throw it out there.

In terms of 'Respect', why does one have to 'earn' it? Why can't it be one of those things you just get until you are proven unworthy of it?

I mean you don't have to 'earn' innocence. You are presumed innocent untill proven guilty.

Why can't one be respected until proven worthy of disrespect?

by **Sassie** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:41 am

When I was young I was taught to respect all adults. But now we don't do that because there are so many bad people in the world. Grown ups can't always be trusted. That's why I believe people have to earn respect now.

Innocent until proven guilty is what our founding fathers believed was the correct way to go about things. It has worked out pretty good for us. But of course there will always be people that believe otherwise. And sometimes there is so much evidence you would be a fool to think they were innocent. I have been guilty of that a few times. (ok maybe more than a few)

by **Socratic Methodist** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:49 am

Sassie wrote:When I was young I was taught to respect all adults. But now we don't do that because there are so many bad people in the world. Grown ups can't always be trusted. That's why I believe people have to earn respect now.

Innocent until proven guilty is what our founding fathers believed was the correct way to go about things. It has worked out pretty good for us. But of course there will always be people that believe otherwise. And sometimes there is so much evidence you would be a fool to think they were innocent. I have been guilty of that a few times. (ok maybe more than a few)

Well the reason I asked the question in this manner is because i equate giving someone respect with being innocent, and not giving someone respect as guilty of something that prevents you from giving it. And if one is innocent untill proven guilty, then it SHOULD follow that someone is afforded the decency to be respected until a reason is given to be treated otherwise....

by **Sassie** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:56 am

I understand what you are saying and I really agree with you. But there is too much cynicism in the world for that now I think.

by **jrnychick** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:01 am

Sassie wrote:When I was young I was taught to respect all adults. But now we don't do that because there are so many bad people in the world. Grown ups can't always be trusted. That's why I believe people have to earn respect now.

I basically agree with you, Sassie, but I think some people go too far in the other direction. For example, I want my daughter's friends to call me by my last name. I'm not their buddy, so they don't need to call me Lisa. I'm not their equal, and I think I should be shown respect because I'm their friend's mom. I have told people who have questioned me about it that when the kids are 16 and some guy is trying to get in my daughter's pants I certainly don't want him calling me Lisa. He will NOT be my equal then, so why should he be now at 7 years old?
There are many kids today who are disrespectful to the adults they know they can trust. I have heard many a child mouth off to their parent and the parent does nothing about it. Last summer I saw a kid (6 years old) slap his t-ball coach in the face! The parent did NOTHING.

by **Sassie** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:16 am

jrnychick wrote:
Sassie wrote:When I was young I was taught to respect all adults. But now we don't do that because there are so many bad people in the world. Grown ups can't always be trusted. That's why I believe people have to earn respect now.

I basically agree with you, Sassie, but I think some people go too far in the other direction. For example, I want my daughter's friends to call me by my last name. I'm not their buddy, so they don't need to call me Lisa. I'm not their equal, and I think I should be shown respect because I'm their friend's mom. I have told people who have questioned me about it that when the kids are 16 and some guy is trying to get in my daughter's pants I certainly don't want him calling me Lisa. He will NOT be my equal then, so why should he be now at 7 years old?
There are many kids today who are disrespectful to the adults they know they can trust. I have heard many a child mouth off to their parent and the parent does nothing about it. Last summer I saw a kid (6 years old) slap his t-ball coach in the face! The parent did NOTHING.

Some parents don't teach their children to be respectful. And they should. My Mother would have killed me if I had done something like that. That parent is the one that needed to be taught respect. Imagine what kind of adult that child will grow up to be. Scary!

by **G.I.Jim** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:39 am

Sassie wrote:
jrnychick wrote:
Sassie wrote:When I was young I was taught to respect all adults. But now we don't do that because there are so many bad people in the world. Grown ups can't always be trusted. That's why I believe people have to earn respect now.

I basically agree with you, Sassie, but I think some people go too far in the other direction. For example, I want my daughter's friends to call me by my last name. I'm not their buddy, so they don't need to call me Lisa. I'm not their equal, and I think I should be shown respect because I'm their friend's mom. I have told people who have questioned me about it that when the kids are 16 and some guy is trying to get in my daughter's pants I certainly don't want him calling me Lisa. He will NOT be my equal then, so why should he be now at 7 years old?
There are many kids today who are disrespectful to the adults they know they can trust. I have heard many a child mouth off to their parent and the parent does nothing about it. Last summer I saw a kid (6 years old) slap his t-ball coach in the face! The parent did NOTHING.

Some parents don't teach their children to be respectful. And they should. My Mother would have killed me if I had done something like that. That parent is the one that needed to be taught respect. Imagine what kind of adult that child will grow up to be. Scary!

I think once a child reaches about 2 years of age...they're ready for a throat punch! LOL!!! Just kidding. Don't call DSS on me! :lol:

Seriously, they should be at least 4 before you do that! :lol:

by **slucero** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:48 am

Socratic Methodist wrote:Well the reason I asked the question in this manner is because i equate giving someone respect with being innocent, and not giving someone respect as guilty of something that prevents you from giving it. And if one is innocent untill proven guilty, then it SHOULD follow that someone is afforded the decency to be respected until a reason is given to be treated otherwise....

I'm not sure I follow this.... I don't think its so black and white...

A child should respect his/her father because, well he's their father.... but that doesn't necessarily mean the father is "innocent".... he could be in prison for gods sakes.... or be guilty of something else the kid may consider offensive.... meaning... sometimes (as in the case above) respect is implied... and innocence is not part of respect.

by **Little Lenny** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:08 am

looking at this logically you don't earn innocence because you are born innocent, in other words you come into the world untarnished, unbiassed and without prejudical thoughts,etc. Therefore, you are innocent until societal influences tarnish you.
However, You must earn respect, mainly due to the fact that you have been tarnished and will have picked up bad habits, no matter how small, along your journey through life.This is coupled with the fact that deep in our primitive psyche we are still animals (baseline), and there is a need for a pecking order as well as learning to knows ones place within that pecking order, which logically means having to earn respect.

Just my thought on this topic , thanks I like stuff like this, good stuff to get the cogs turning and the old grey matter working ...

by **ohsherrie** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:09 am

I try to respect everyone until they give me reason to suspect that they don't deserve it. Then they have to earn it back. As far as innocent until proven guilty, I have a harder time with that when evidence indicates otherwise.

I do however, think it's a mistake in these times to teach children that they should respect all adults. That's a dilemma because after a few generations of kids being taught, even if unintentionally, to suspect all adults as potential "bad people" eventually it's going to become so that trust and respect have to be earned rather than automatically given. As a by product of that thinking it's going to become harder to assume innocence until proven guilty.

What's more important keeping your kids safe or being fair to innocent agults? That's a no brainer because kids (normally) are the only true innocents.

by **Little Lenny** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:28 am

ohsherrie wrote:I try to respect everyone until they give me reason to suspect that they don't deserve it. Then they have to earn it back. As far as innocent until proven guilty, I have a harder time with that when evidence indicates otherwise.

.

well even that is harking back to our animal instincts again, look at the animal kingdom, some groups of animals will chastise others within their group and put them down a peg or two until they learn their place. It's all about respect, learning how to respect and where you are situated in the pecking order.

as far as innocent until proven guilty goes, we have to have it that way round. Don't know how things work in the US, or elsewhere but here in the UK that is most definitely the case. It has been known for cases to be brought against people only to find out that the evidence was incorrect, or someone has testified wrongly and a person ahs gone to jail on one twist of fate...how does the person that was innocent in the first place earn back the time they have lost behind bars because of lousy evidence etc...we used to ahve a programme over here in the UK called ROUGH JUSTICe http://www.btinternet.com/~peter.hill34/hill.htmand it basically took up the cases of people who had spent years in jail, and basically they had been wrongfully jailed because of a misscarriage of Justice. that is why people have to be innocent until proven guilty, and I know it stinks when it may be the case that sometimes guilty people get off scott free...

by **Socratic Methodist** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:50 am

OK....let me get this thread back on track. BTW, I really like the answers that were given. Nobody was attacking anybody....COOL!

That being said: The reason I posted this was because of the movie 'Pride'. I watched it last night, and it got me to thinking during this one scene. This movie is about competitive swimming. And it stars Terence Howard, Bernie Mac, and Tom Arnold.

Anyway, during this one scene(BTW, this movie takes place mainly in 1974) Terence Howard's character shows up at a swim meet in an ALL white school with his BLACK swim team. During the last race, a student of Arnold's kicks a boy on Howard's team during the 'flip'(when they turn around and come back to the start point)....Well the black kid finally makes it back to the start, jumps out of the pool and approaches the white kid yelling about how he was kicked(he was going to be in the lead if he wasn't kicked). After a few shoves, Arnold says this gem, ' Yeah maybe my kid made a bonehead move, but you gotta EARN respect!'

And this got me to thinking about this thread. Is there a pecking order for respect? In all aspects of life. And should it be given freely at the beginning, or earned?

As far as sports go - Rookies are less thans. They have to pay their dues. Then they get respect. To ME, this isn't fair. So Arnold was basically saying that Howard was Black, and a new coach, so he and his team had to earn respect. WRONG.

And as far as children and parents go....I only think kids should respect their parents, WITHOUT QUESTIONING IT, up to a certain age. After that, the kid decides if his parents deserve to be respected after that. I'm not hardcore oldschool. I don't think parents deserve respect just because. if your father's a dickhead, he doesn't deserve repsect just cos. Sorry.

by **ohsherrie** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:06 am

OK, so if the only reason Terrence Howard and his swimmers weren't being shown respect is because they were black that was wrong. If they weren't being shown respect because they were new to the competition that's also wrong because even being new they deserve respect for being there. In that kind of situation they deserved respect until they did something to lose it.

In life in general however, I think there are many different levels of respect and disrepect. For example, a homeless beggar in a huge city deserves to be respected as a human being more so than a convicted violent criminal. If there were some way to know who you were dealing with, a homeless beggar who led an honest life and fell into his circumstances through no fault of his own deserves more respect than a successful, wealthy businessman who became successful by unethical means.

by **Socratic Methodist** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:13 am

ohsherrie wrote:OK, so if the only reason Terrence Howard and his swimmers weren't being shown respect is because they were black that was wrong. If they weren't being shown respect because they were new to the competition that's also wrong because even being new they deserve respect for being there. In that kind of situation they deserved respect until they did something to lose it.

In life in general however, I think there are many different levels of respect and disrepect. For example, a homeless beggar in a huge city deserves to be respected as a human being more so than a convicted violent criminal. If there were some way to know who you were dealing with, a homeless beggar who led an honest life and fell into his circumstances through no fault of his own deserves more respect than a successful, wealthy businessman who became successful by unethical means.

Hi....I don't know if this is what you are saying but.....

A rookie ballplayer should be respected as a human being, but other than that - all other respects must be earned?

Is this what you are implying? Just trying to clarify.

by **ohsherrie** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:23 am

Socratic Methodist wrote:
Hi....I don't know if this is what you are saying but.....

A rookie ballplayer should be respected as a human being, but other than that - all other respects must be earned?

Is this what you are implying? Just trying to clarify.

No, I'm saying that a rookie ball player who makes it to the show should be respected for getting to the show. He shouldn't be respected for his accomplishments as much as the guy who has the highest RBI on the team though because he hasn't earned that much professional respect yet. However, the rookie deserves as much respect as a human being as the star of the team unless he's done something to lose respect.

by **slucero** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:25 am

Socratic Methodist wrote:.......And as far as children and parents go....I only think kids should respect their parents, WITHOUT QUESTIONING IT, up to a certain age. After that, the kid decides if his parents deserve to be respected after that. I'm not hardcore oldschool. I don't think parents deserve respect just because. if your father's a dickhead, he doesn't deserve repsect just cos. Sorry.

hmmm... think that could that be the cause of all the wise-assed kids in the US now?.....

A phrase comes to mind... "there's a huge difference between being a mother/father and being a parent"...

Here's a good example... my father. (Remember - anyone can be a father.....)

Undiagnosed depression caused my father to try and kill himself (how's that for the ultimate asshole award), yet I always respected him as a great father. Up until his suicide attempt he was a great parent too. The anger I held towards him for his actions made me choose to lose respect for him... until I realized what he did was all about him and not about me.... so I chose to see him as just my Dad (and the great parent) again....

The moral breakdown of "families" in our society can be directly tied to the breakdown in implied respect for ones mother and father. We see it everyday in children who talk back to their parents, fight with their parents, get pregnant just because, and do so many other things that wouldn't even be statistics 30 years ago....

by **ArnelRox** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:34 am

Socratic Methodist wrote:And as far as children and parents go....I only think kids should respect their parents, WITHOUT QUESTIONING IT, up to a certain age. After that, the kid decides if his parents deserve to be respected after that. I'm not hardcore oldschool. I don't think parents deserve respect just because. if your father's a dickhead, he doesn't deserve repsect just cos. Sorry.

If parents don't deserve respect at all, they shouldn't be respect at all.

by **ArnelRox** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:41 am

slucero wrote:Here's a good example... my father. (Remember - anyone can be a father.....)

Undiagnosed depression caused my father to try and kill himself (how's that for the ultimate asshole award), yet I always respected him as a great father. Up until his suicide attempt he was a great parent too. The anger I held towards him for his actions made me choose to lose respect for him... until I realized what he did was all about him and not about me.... so I chose to see him as just my Dad (and the great parent) again....

Slucero I'm so sorry u had to go thru that. I think u hit the keyword in saying "undiagnosed depression". That's probably what his attempt was all about really. Some people, when severely depressed, really think they are doing the world a favor by leaving it, thereby sparing all others of having to put up w/thm. Depression is a terrible thing. I'm glad it's no longer a shameful thing to seek help for it. Again, I'm sorry for ur experience.

Ur right ANYONE can be a father. But u need a license to drive....

by **slucero** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:37 am

JR (Susie) wrote:
slucero wrote:Here's a good example... my father. (Remember - anyone can be a father.....)

Undiagnosed depression caused my father to try and kill himself (how's that for the ultimate asshole award), yet I always respected him as a great father. Up until his suicide attempt he was a great parent too. The anger I held towards him for his actions made me choose to lose respect for him... until I realized what he did was all about him and not about me.... so I chose to see him as just my Dad (and the great parent) again....

Slucero I'm so sorry u had to go thru that. I think u hit the keyword in saying "undiagnosed depression". That's probably what his attempt was all about really. Some people, when severely depressed, really think they are doing the world a favor by leaving it, thereby sparing all others of having to put up w/thm. Depression is a terrible thing. I'm glad it's no longer a shameful thing to seek help for it. Again, I'm sorry for ur experience.

Ur right ANYONE can be a father. But u need a license to drive....

Thanks for the kind words..... ironically - I'm probably a better man because of the experience.... and really have a much better appreciation for my Dad and the rest of my family.... so even in my Dad's darkest moment, he ultimately taught me a most valuable lesson.

cheers!

by **Little Lenny** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:50 pm

I've just sat and read through some of these replies, and it's nice to see no one jumping on someone elses back and creating a squabble, and very fitting for such a thread, as we are all being respectful of one and others views. :-)

Slucero I appreciate everything what you say, and can understand your inital anger at your dad, but with maturity and hindsight you must appreciate how he must ahve been feeling..as you say you ahve a better appreciation of him now and that is good :-)

This made me think of something. I said That baseline we are all animals in our most primitive state of mind, and that a pecking order is just a way of rankingwhere we are but it is travelled up and down like a road throughout life, and that is because of respect our thoughts, actions and how we reac within society and within our families etc

However, It is regarding what slucero said about HIs ( am I right in assuming you are male? if not I apologise)...my Bro-in-law has to deal with children who are still climbing the pecking order everday, these children however have one problem, they ahve all attempted suiceide due to various reasons, peer pressure, sibling pressure parent pressure, grown up/adult pressure and in a lot of cases abuse fom the emotional to the physical and sexual...some of these children have become so depressed and also have begun to think the world would be a better place without them...

My brother in Law has my deepest respect for taking these children and helping them fit back into society, and to help them to learn how to respect themselves again...because that is the thing I forgot you also ahve to be able to respect yourself, but these poor children have had that right taken away from them , basically because they ahve become tarnished by some one who could not respect tham and did not care about thier innocence.

I guess what IM trying to say is while one is a right(innocence) and one must be earned(respect), they are as interconnected as you can get in our formative years, and if that set of mechanics is not working right then it could ahve a major impact upon our lives... :-)

If there are any spelling mistakes sorry bout that, i ahve to take my time with these things as I ahve a learning difficulty, and IM rushing!! LOL..found out when I was in my last year of my degree at Uni ..would you believe it!!

by **slucero** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:26 pm

hey LL... yup I'm a male... lol

pass on my respect to your brother for the good work he does... it takes a good man to do those things

I firmly believe all children are born innocent... and that all children fundamentally KNOW the difference between "right and wrong".... its only through their upbringing that they are exposed to the "shades of gray", the half-truths and white lies our society accepts and propagates.....

by **Little Lenny** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:58 pm

slucero wrote:hey LL... yup I'm a male... lol

pass on my respect to your brother for the good work he does... it takes a good man to do those things

I firmly believe all children are born innocent... and that all children fundamentally KNOW the difference between "right and wrong".... its only through their upbringing that they are exposed to the "shades of gray", the half-truths and white lies our society accepts and propagates.....

and there in lies the answer :-)

we are all innocent until our environments erodes that innocence. I will most certainly pass on your respect to my brother -in-law.

Well I wish there more threads like this im really into this stuff,like i said before I like to get the old grey matter working. trying to keep my brian coordinating is something I really ahve to do all the time.. other wise spelling speech and physical coordination go to pot LOL..in other words I turn into a mispelling porky piglet who trips over her own feet!! LMAO

MR

OT -Respect vs. Innocence

OT -Respect vs. Innocence

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