JC (Friga) Saint or Sinner - take no prisoners?

[Wheels Of Fyre]

Even if I can't stand somebody - if I think they've got a valid point then I'll say so. I don't let personal likes/dislikes get in the way of things.

In this case NO. I was absolutely NOT agreeing with his comments.

I enjoy good insults as much as anybody but geez - do we HAVE to go to places like this?

Thank u Fyre. Ur a good man.

I swear it's true. I had a Charlie Brown sweater when I was a kid.

[Matthew]

I don't know what ur talking about or where Andrew said that Journey instead of taking this deal should have self-financed. Can u please give me a source for that? I also don't know where it was said this was just a distribution deal. I haven't gotten that impression from what was said about this deal. But if u know something I don't, please share it. (See, u seem to have way more insider info than me on this.)

It was around the time when Journey played Winds of Freedom in Virginia. I asked Andrew whether or not there was any news about a record deal because an ominous silence seemed to be developing. He said he felt the band would go the REO route. I guess this was before he heard about the interest from the UK label...

I expected they would if they did one.

You've just disputed that the album would cost them money in your previous post! And now you're saying you expect them to foot the bill....

They were but I guess they're not anymore. Thanks a lot.

Of course they weren't personal. Don't blow this up to portray yourself as a put upon creature.

I express my opinions. They have always been my opinions. Why is it that u believe ur entitled to have & express ur opinions about this band here, on TBJF, & God knows where else, but no one else is allowed to have a different opinion? Are those the rules of this forum Matty?

You can say what you like, Susie. Who's stopping you? No-one. Plenty are disagreeing with you but you're hardly being silenced are you?

[Matthew]

Even if I can't stand somebody - if I think they've got a valid point then I'll say so. I don't let personal likes/dislikes get in the way of things.

In this case NO. I was absolutely NOT agreeing with his comments.

I enjoy good insults as much as anybody but geez - do we HAVE to go to places like this?

Thank u Fyre. Ur a good man.

I swear it's true. I had a Charlie Brown sweater when I was a kid.

Hey Fyre - we've got to page 30. Want to call it a day? Or will you eventually get around to replying to my long response to one of your ramblings about MTV or whatever it was?

[ArnelRox]

[conversationpc]

Nice. Real nice Dave. What a great guy u are. I'm always claiming the part of a victim. Yeah sure. So what Joe said is just fine in ur book. & ur a father? Gee. What does that tell us?

U do realize Matthew & I are just having fun, right? We've both laughed our asses off about this whole thing & shared it privately.

When you exhibit a certain behavior again and again and again, such as your constant gay jokes with Matthew, one has to wonder if you don't really mean what you're saying even though you claim you're joking about it. If it's not true, it certainly borders on obsessive regardless.

As far my being a father, buzz off. That's none of your business and has nothing to do with this discussion.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

Even if I can't stand somebody - if I think they've got a valid point then I'll say so. I don't let personal likes/dislikes get in the way of things.

In this case NO. I was absolutely NOT agreeing with his comments.

I enjoy good insults as much as anybody but geez - do we HAVE to go to places like this?

Thank u Fyre. Ur a good man.

I swear it's true. I had a Charlie Brown sweater when I was a kid.

Hey Fyre - we've got to page 30. Want to call it a day? Or will you eventually get around to replying to my long response to one of your ramblings about MTV or whatever it was?

I'll get to it just as soon as you get off your lazy ass and climb up into the loft to retrieve Arrival so you can scan the JC sofa pose for your AV!

[ArnelRox]

[Matthew]

Even if I can't stand somebody - if I think they've got a valid point then I'll say so. I don't let personal likes/dislikes get in the way of things.

In this case NO. I was absolutely NOT agreeing with his comments.

I enjoy good insults as much as anybody but geez - do we HAVE to go to places like this?

Thank u Fyre. Ur a good man.

I swear it's true. I had a Charlie Brown sweater when I was a kid.

Hey Fyre - we've got to page 30. Want to call it a day? Or will you eventually get around to replying to my long response to one of your ramblings about MTV or whatever it was?

I'll get to it just as soon as you get off your lazy ass and climb up into the loft to retrieve Arrival so you can scan the JC sofa pose for your AV!

I haven't got a scanner, Fyre! Who was it that posted that picture recently?

[conversationpc]

I really don't care what ur opinion is of me. Ur nothing but an asshole who likes to insult people & fight battles u imagine are happening anyway. U make things that are funny, personal.

You've got to be kidding. Out of anyone on the forum, you would have to be THE MOST hypocritical to actually post this statement not to mention that you insulted me in this very post AND made it personal.

[Red13JoePa]

Red13 dragged the subject in & u continued it.

Ask Matthew if he took any of this seriously? I have & he didn't.

I really don't care what ur opinion is of me. Ur nothing but an asshole who likes to insult people & fight battles u imagine are happening anyway. U make things that are funny, personal. I guess that's why u get along so well w/Red13.

No, Forrest.

YOU brought it up. (I then referred to it here and DaveConvPc said NOTHING about it besides dismissing it as hooey) That means OPEN SEASON on any fairly tale you pull down off the Young And The Restless' script database.

Crackpot.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

You mean the three men and dog who used to show up to watch one of Greg Rolie's jazz odysseys on the hammond organ?

Number of fans (with or without dogs) isn't the point. The point was that when SP joined they lost a large part of their fan base and had to start from scratch.

When you look at the big picture it can be argued that SP's voice, MTV, and Friga's looks had more to do with the success of E5C4P3 than the song writing!

Firstly, MTV was launched in 1981. Nobody watched it and in any case the playlist was largely made up of English new wave bands. Also Journey didn't record any videos for the singles.

I had to research this a little. There were 3 million subscribers - that's hardly "nobody". I believe JOURNEY's pre-E5C4P3 videos were played.

Yes - the Houston show was filmed in late 1981. But how many people watched it? And to what extent was Cain's looks important to this performance? After all, this wasn't a highly stylized show was it?

How many people watched it isn't the point. The point is that MTV as a NEW medium partnered with JOURNEY to produce something. The fact that JOURNEY partnered with MTV indicates that even they knew the importance of the partnership.

Cain's looks were important for LIVE performances, MTV and media coverage.

The Houston show wasn't stylized because SP wasn't that kind of a performer and neither was JOURNEY. They were straight-forward performers with no gimmicks.

The fact is...Journey broke into the big leagues in '81 due to RADIO.

Define "big leagues". To me the big leagues is getting A song on the radio and JOURNEY did that in 1978.

And Cain's genius for simple and memorable keyboard riffs

LOL!!! So if it was ALL JC then please tell me WHERE is this genius NOW? Where has it been since 1996 when he last did something noteworthy (with SP, of course).

You speak as if Gregg Rolie couldn't play an intro!

BTW the DSB intro is memorable ONLY because of Ross' super riffs that fatten it up into something. Take away Ross' bass and there's hardly anytihng there!

I'd say that most people - both then and now - have no idea who Rolie or Cain are. Perry and Schon were the two truly visible members of the band. You say that Cain's 'looks' were a factor in the band's success.

I said his looks were MORE a factor than his songwriting. This is self-evident. Nobody's trying to rewrite anything. You've even agreed that JC's done SQUAT as a solo performer so why are you charging that anyone's trying to rewrite history? The history speaks for itself. The only time JC's had ANY success has been as a partner with REAL talent.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

I haven't got a scanner, Fyre! Who was it that posted that picture recently?

In this thread? I don't know - I missed it!

[conversationpc]

BTW the DSB intro is memorable ONLY because of Ross' super riffs that fatten it up into something. Take away Ross' bass and there's hardly anytihng there!

That's a load of crap. I've heard the intro played without bass and, though it doesn't sound as good, it's certainly still easily identifiable.

I said his looks were MORE a factor than his songwriting. This is self-evident.

No, it's not self-evident. It's kinda funny how all the people are coming out of the woodwork now claiming that Cain's songwriting wasn't all that important to the band's success, where before people were arguing to the death that his songwriting was almost as much a part of the band's success as Perry's vocals.

[ArnelRox]

[conversationpc]

No asshole. U brought it up. Quit lying. Or is that the only thing u CAN do. U are such a hysterical idiot. U think ur so great but no one else does except maybe Dave.

Get some help w/that psychotic anger please.

I thought u were out of this thread? Couldn't help peaking, could you?

[ArnelRox]

[Wheels Of Fyre]

BTW the DSB intro is memorable ONLY because of Ross' super riffs that fatten it up into something. Take away Ross' bass and there's hardly anytihng there!

That's a load of crap. I've heard the intro played without bass and, though it doesn't sound as good, it's certainly still easily identifiable.

How can it be a load of crap when you admit it doesn't sounds as good? THAT is what I was saying. Ultimately, the piano intro is no more "memorable" or "genius" than any other third-rate piano player could play! There was a kid in high school that I wrote some songs with and he could knock out similar riffs at the drop of the hat. I was amazed but he always said it was nothing. He wound up being a flight attendant so he must've been right.

I said his looks were MORE a factor than his songwriting. This is self-evident.

No, it's not self-evident. It's kinda funny how all the people are coming out of the woodwork now claiming that Cain's songwriting wasn't all that important to the band's success, where before people were arguing to the death that his songwriting was almost as much a part of the band's success as Perry's vocals.[/quote]

You're NOT addressing the facts presented here. JC has done NOTHING on his own. Nothing. I'm not coming out of any woodwork. I've always said that it was his PARTNERSHIP that made for great songs. I'm stressing that here, too. The "genius" of JC lies NOT in his piano playing and/or songwriting. His genius lies in partnering. Oh, and keen eye for fashion

[conversationpc]

How can it be a load of crap when you admit it doesn't sounds as good? THAT is what I was saying.

That's not what you said. You said it was memorable ONLY because of Ross' bass.

[Matthew]

Number of fans (with or without dogs) isn't the point. The point was that when SP joined they lost a large part of their fan base and had to start from scratch.

Of course the number of fans is the point. Journey had virtually no fan base when SP joined. They had nothing to lose. You make out that Journey were making a sacrifice of some kind when Perry joined....

I had to research this a little. There were 3 million subscribers - that's hardly "nobody". I believe JOURNEY's pre-E5C4P3 videos were played.

An audience of 3 million in America? That's tiny, Fyre....

The point is that MTV as a NEW medium partnered with JOURNEY to produce something. The fact that JOURNEY partnered with MTV indicates that even they knew the importance of the partnership.

Yes, I can imagine they saw the potential of MTV - but was it enough of a presence in 1981 to influence the hiring of Jonathan Cain? In fact...did MTV even exist in the month when Cain was hired?

And what about 1986? MTV was fully established by then and Journey refused to make any promotional videos. Shows just how preoccupied they were with the new medium...

Cain's looks were important for LIVE performances, MTV and media coverage.

Do you think Greg Rolie recommended Cain for his looks?

The Houston show wasn't stylized because SP wasn't that kind of a performer and neither was JOURNEY. They were straight-forward performers with no gimmicks.

EXACTLY. You make out that Journey were like Whitesnake in 1987 or something. Look at the DVD Fyre. What a bunch of badly dressed and slightly geeky blokes. Look at the Frontiers videos. Not even a hint of stylishness or cool. Journey's image was a disaster but it didn't matter because Journey were never marketed as pretty boys were they?

Define "big leagues". To me the big leagues is getting A song on the radio and JOURNEY did that in 1978.

To me it's stadium tours...top ten singles...and multi-platinum albums...and becoming a household name. Journey were not at this stage in 1978.

You speak as if Gregg Rolie couldn't play an intro!

Name one that can compare to DSB or WCN.

The only time JC's had ANY success has been as a partner with REAL talent.

Well, in the post you wrote after this one you said:

"His genius lies in partnering."

So do you believe the genius in the songwriting was a two-way rather than a parasitical process? You seem a bit confused on this issue, Fyre.

[CatEyes]

You speak as if Gregg Rolie couldn't play an intro!

Name one that can compare to DSB or WCN.

Black Magic Woman

[mistiejourney]

Deleted by the author - that's me!

[Wheels Of Fyre]

How can it be a load of crap when you admit it doesn't sounds as good? THAT is what I was saying.

That's not what you said. You said it was memorable ONLY because of Ross' bass.

Right. And you said:
"I've heard the intro played without bass and, though it doesn't sound as good..."

You're saying that Ross' bass adds something to it and THAT is what I was saying!

"...it's certainly still easily identifiable."

So are about 3,000 other piano intros! Big deal.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

Of course the number of fans is the point. Journey had virtually no fan base when SP joined. They had nothing to lose. You make out that Journey were making a sacrifice of some kind when Perry joined....

No. I've been very clear that when SP joined that they had to start from scratch and build up their fan base which JC inherited.

An audience of 3 million in America? That's tiny, Fyre....

And you said "nobody". 3 million is a LOT for a new medium like that. What you fail to recognize are all of the fans of MTV who were NOT one of the 3 million subscribers but rather watched at their friend's houses. MYV was HUGE. Were you NOT paying attention then? We ALWAYS had MTV parties. Every weekend.

Yes, I can imagine they saw the potential of MTV - but was it enough of a presence in 1981 to influence the hiring of Jonathan Cain?

Absolutely. Everybody saw the video revolution coming a mile away. You speak as if it was invented on the spot and launched the very same day in August, 1981! It was planned long before that.

In fact...did MTV even exist in the month when Cain was hired?

It was on the horizon and destined to kill the radio. It doesn't matter if it yet had been launched.

And what about 1986? MTV was fully established by then and Journey refused to make any promotional videos. Shows just how preoccupied they were with the new medium...

Right. ROR was released that year and was something of a political statement against MTV despite the fact that they recorded the Houston show in conjunction with them! There's that pathology again!

Eventually they DID record LIVE videos.

Have you ever seen SP's OH, Sherrie video? SP HATED videos and made it clear in the filming of that one. The guy just wanted to sing and let the song and his voice be the art so ROR was really no surprise.

Do you think Greg Rolie recommended Cain for his looks?

I don't know but it wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't part of the equation.

EXACTLY. You make out that Journey were like Whitesnake in 1987 or something. Look at the DVD Fyre. What a bunch of badly dressed and slightly geeky blokes. Look at the Frontiers videos. Not even a hint of stylishness or cool. Journey's image was a disaster but it didn't matter because Journey were never marketed as pretty boys were they?

Not as pretty boys but they were previously marketed as classy dressers. It just so happens that by the time of E5C4P3 that that fashion statement had passed and jeans and t-shirts were in. Of course, that fad passed quickly and they went back to the tuxedo shirts, permed hair, and *choke* painted smocks!

To me it's stadium tours...top ten singles...and multi-platinum albums...and becoming a household name. Journey were not at this stage in 1978.

You're definition is goofy.

When JOURNEY started the big leagues was getting a record label to sign you. This pretty much assured radio play - ultimately, I think the two went hand in hand. THAT was the big leagues.

Stadium tours were invented during the course of JOURNEY's career.

Name one that can compare to DSB or WCN.

No thanks.

[Red13JoePa]

Come on back, JRox.

[mistiejourney]

Deleted by author - that's me!

[Monker]

Fyre, do you just enjoy making things up as you go along?

No. I've been very clear that when SP joined that they had to start from scratch and build up their fan base which JC inherited.

The dynamics of the fanbase changed with Perry, because the music changed. However, there is absolutely no evidence that Journey had to 'start over'. You are just inventing that to prove your own point.

Sure, JC 'inherited' that fanbase. But, it had a HUGE expansion with Escape. That is absolutely UNDENIABLE. Both concert sales, album sales, hit singles, and national polls prove that.

And you said "nobody". 3 million is a LOT for a new medium like that. What you fail to recognize are all of the fans of MTV who were NOT one of the 3 million subscribers but rather watched at their friend's houses. MYV was HUGE. Were you NOT paying attention then? We ALWAYS had MTV parties. Every weekend.

YOU obviously were not paying much attention. In the beginning MTV did NOT have a huge influence on what was a 'hit' and what wasn't...and it certainly was not the case in the early 80's and the Escape concert, etc. That influence did not come until later AFTER MTV was integrated into American culture.

And, your comments about Jonathan's looks being so important are absolute bullshit. JC's looks were somehow important to Journey's success? More important then his influence over over the songwriting? Give me a break, that is such an ignorant statement that I can't believe someone would make such an argument on a Journey forum.

Absolutely. Everybody saw the video revolution coming a mile away. You speak as if it was invented on the spot and launched the very same day in August, 1981! It was planned long before that.

It was 'planned'? Again, you are inventing things. It was never planned. Who planned it? The Beatles? The Monkey's? TV and video had always been flirted with...even back in the 50's...but the idea of a channel on cable for 'music video' was NOT planned. There wasn't even enough 'music video' to fill up the time when it was launched. If anything, it was very 'unplanned'.

It was on the horizon and destined to kill the radio. It doesn't matter if it yet had been launched.

And, it did NOT 'kill radio'. It completely changed the type of music on the radio....but it absolutely did NOT kill radio. Seems to me that I could turn on the radio right now and listen to music. But, if I turn on MTV, I bet I don't see a music video. Which is REALLY 'dead'? If you want to see the latest video, you go to the internet, not cable.

Right. ROR was released that year and was something of a political statement against MTV despite the fact that they recorded the Houston show in conjunction with them! There's that pathology again!

Eventually they DID record LIVE videos.

Yep, that is true...and the ROR doc was on MTV. But, MTV was NOT a huge part of Journey's success...especially in the early 80's.

Not as pretty boys but they were previously marketed as classy dressers. It just so happens that by the time of E5C4P3 that that fashion statement had passed and jeans and t-shirts were in. Of course, that fad passed quickly and they went back to the tuxedo shirts, permed hair, and *choke* painted smocks!

LOL...Journey was not 'marketed' for their looks! In those days, Herbie wanted Journey albums to be known for the giant scarab...not Gregg's Monster!

To me it's stadium tours...top ten singles...and multi-platinum albums...and becoming a household name. Journey were not at this stage in 1978.

You're definition is goofy.

Maybe he is...But, he is absoluely correct.

When JOURNEY started the big leagues was getting a record label to sign you. This pretty much assured radio play - ultimately, I think the two went hand in hand. THAT was the big leagues.

What? Again, making things up. Having a record deal does not gaurantee airplay. Even after three albums with Perry, they did not have THAT much airplay. Look up how many top 10 singles Journey had prior to Escape. Your argument is so full of holes that SpongeBob could use it as a jellyfish net.

Stadium tours were invented during the course of JOURNEY's career.

LOL. So? They were not invented BECAUSE OF JOURNEY! Other bands were doing it too.

[Clasicrockldy]

30 pages in this thread and no one has yet posted that pic of Frack on the couch!

[Red13JoePa]

Mistie and Fire, I made some changes to a post that was quoted by you guys, can you guys do the same?

Thx

[Wheels Of Fyre]

Fyre, do you just enjoy making things up as you go along?

No. It's called clarifying through "dialogue" or "discussion". I can understand why this is difficult to recognize as it's rarely something I've seen you do

The dynamics of the fanbase changed with Perry, because the music changed. However, there is absolutely no evidence that Journey had to 'start over'. You are just inventing that to prove your own point.

The band had a following that followed because of the MUSIC that JOURNEY played. That music changed and as Neal has even acknowledged - they lost a big portion of their fans BUT ultimately gained a much larger one.

It's baffling to me how you can recognize that things changed with the musical change (SP and focus on vocals) but you can't define that for what it was: starting over. They took a complete DETOUR from what they were doing. How is that NOT starting over?

Sure, JC 'inherited' that fanbase. But, it had a HUGE expansion with Escape. That is absolutely UNDENIABLE. Both concert sales, album sales, hit singles, and national polls prove that.

Right. No argument there. I'm arguing that the success of the album was NOT necessarily via the "genius" of JC.

And you said "nobody". 3 million is a LOT for a new medium like that. What you fail to recognize are all of the fans of MTV who were NOT one of the 3 million subscribers but rather watched at their friend's houses. MYV was HUGE. Were you NOT paying attention then? We ALWAYS had MTV parties. Every weekend.

YOU obviously were not paying much attention. In the beginning MTV did NOT have a huge influence on what was a 'hit' and what wasn't...

It was an added vehicle. You can argue to what degree all you want but that's not the point. In the Steve Perry/JOURNEY interview which aired during the success of E5C4P3 Steve Perry was asked about JOURNEY videos. He said that JOURNEY was one of the first bands to make them. I believe he said, "They're funny lookin' but we did 'em." I have the interview on cassette somewhere. He also noted that MTV indeed WAS an important vehicle in the PROMOTION of bands. He noted that when they first started there wasn't any MTV around and that you had to be good LIVE in order to get record deals. In other words, MTV made it possible for artists that perhaps weren't the best musical performers be successful through IMAGERY.

Without running on the point that I was trying to make was that MTV was a factor. To what degree is debatable.

And, your comments about Jonathan's looks being so important are absolute bullshit. JC's looks were somehow important to Journey's success? More important then his influence over over the songwriting? Give me a break, that is such an ignorant statement that I can't believe someone would make such an argument on a Journey forum.[.quote]

I venture that it's something you never heard anyone express. Had you made the observation then I'm sure yuo'd think it was pure genius.

JC's mug gave JOURNEY a fresh new look - something they desperately needed simply because it helped them capture a younger audience - something they couldn't do with the sophisticated image of Gregg Rolie. Youth is where the $$$ is. It's always been that way. If you do NOT think looks are important to being successful in music then you're so far out in left field that you'll need NASA to help guide you back!

It was 'planned'? Again, you are inventing things. It was never planned. Who planned it? The Beatles? The Monkey's? TV and video had always been flirted with...even back in the 50's...but the idea of a channel on cable for 'music video' was NOT planned. There wasn't even enough 'music video' to fill up the time when it was launched. If anything, it was very 'unplanned'.

You're right. MTV just got together one day and started making it all up as they went along.

Just because their initial efforts seem flawed to you doesn't mean that it wasn't thought out.

And, it did NOT 'kill radio'. It completely changed the type of music on the radio....but it absolutely did NOT kill radio. Seems to me that I could turn on the radio right now and listen to music. But, if I turn on MTV, I bet I don't see a music video. Which is REALLY 'dead'? If you want to see the latest video, you go to the internet, not cable.

MTV killed the radio because of what I quoted SP above in regards to bands no longer needing to be great musicians but rather have great images.

Sure. You can turn on the radio. That doesn't mean it isn't dead. The radio today hasn't half the impact that it once had in promoting artists. In other words, it's dead. Killed by MTV.

When JOURNEY started the big leagues was getting a record label to sign you. This pretty much assured radio play - ultimately, I think the two went hand in hand. THAT was the big leagues.

What? Again, making things up. Having a record deal does not gaurantee airplay.

Right. That's why I said "pretty much assured".

Geez - man I don't know. I don't know what's worse - when words get stuffed into my mouth or when plain old black and white type just isn't clear enough.

Even after three albums with Perry, they did not have THAT much airplay. Look up how many top 10 singles Journey had prior to Escape.

All I can say is that I recall JOURNEY being on the radio ALL THE TIME when I was a kid. I grew up near Cleveland so maybe that's why.

Stadium tours were invented during the course of JOURNEY's career.

LOL. So? They were not invented BECAUSE OF JOURNEY! Other bands were doing it too.

Right. You clearly missed the point again.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

Mistie and Fire, I made some changes to a post that was quoted by you guys, can you guys do the same?

Thx

Done. I hope you approve