Why Steve Smith will never return to Journey

[cudaclan]

FYI: http://www.journey-zone.com/Features/In ... _06-03.htm
Mention Journey to SS and look at his eyes.
SS does not feed off fame and spotlights.
He has expanded his catalog to ethnic percussion and looks at simple Rock n' Roll percussion as mundane.
Another noted drummer enjoys performing the Big Band era. Ironically, he too is a noted Rock drummer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bIchqJoxFQ

[Monker]

The special thing about Journey wasn't because any one player was the defining element. It wasn't just about the guitar playing, it wasn't just about the drums, it wasn't just about the singer, etc. It was how these 5 creative artists blended their unique approaches from various backgrounds into the whole. It was that collaboration and compromise which yielded the superior results. This is why Neal Schon in side projects isn't as good as when he's in Journey. Why Steve Perry solo isn't as good as when he's in Journey, etc. They all affected the outcome of the final song which no other 'inspired' band has been able to duplicate on their level.

EXACTLY. It's also why ROR isn't as good as the previous albums...It was NOT a 'band' effort...but a Perry effort with Schon and Cain riding his tux tails.

Granted, ROR was Perry's musical experiment, but you know what? He didn't have the right to do that. Journey wasn't Perry's band of studio musicians backing him. He was a part of a whole. If he wanted to make a solo album then he should have done that. Like I said, I liked the album for what it is, however, history shows a majority of Journey fans thought this was a backward step for them and the sales reflected it.

There has been talk that is exactly what Perry wanted to do - another solo album and the reason Perry had so much control over ROR is because that is what it took to keep him in Journey and not solo. Don't know how true that is tho.

[Monker]

Come off it Monker. We're not talking about some paddy field in Communist China. This was a multi-million dollar organisation with a heirachy. I don't see Smith or Valary's names on the publishing credits for Journeys songs. Sure, they played a part in the arrangements but let's not forget who actually wrote the songs. Perry, Schon and Cain. No wonder that by 1986 they felt they had the right to call the shots....

By ALL accounts, Journey had always completed the writing process of songs with the entire band's input. ROR is the ONLY Journey album where the bass and drums were not contributing to that process. That is a FACT. Deal with it.

As I have said soooo many times, I don't care about writing credits. That is all politics when it comes to who gets a writing credit, and the order of the writing credits. To say that Perry/Schon/Cain TOLD Steve Smith how to perform on every song he recorded with Journey is pure stupidity.

And, Perry was calling the shots by 1986...Not the three of them.

Of course it was because ROR was the only album recorded in the mid-1980s when drum machines, big simplistic snare drum patterns and heavy keyboards were not only what the radio stations and the market demanded - but also represented a whole new creative approach for traditional rock bands.

Ah, yes, and Journey just always followed musical trends...sure they did.

They were a BAND up until 1986. After ROR, they fell apart, never to completely recover. Again, that is a FACT, deal with it.

Time and time again people talk about ROR completely out of the context of its era. Again - why was it that Smith didn't embrace the new approach when other drummers - such as Phil Collins - had no problem with it? Was this really just an issue of Perry not speaking to Smith with enough respect?

I don't really care why he didn't embrace a particular style. I care why he didn't embrace Journey's new way of writing and recording. He was COMPLETELY in the right to rebel against it.

Even Perry wasn't involved in the ROR sessions from the beginning.

Oh, please, he produced the damn album. If he is going to take such a lofty position, he needs to take responsibility for the results as well.

All Smith had to in this environment do was keep it simple and get well-rewarded for doing so. The band was experimenting with a new approach and the drum machine was just a guide.

All Perry had to do was to let Steve Smith into the creative process. There is NO excuse for not doing that....NONE.

But like Dunbar before him it seems he found Journey too restrictive for his talents...

It wasn't 'too restrictive' until he was made into an outside guy being treated like a session player.

Those were probably his intentions at the outset... but had Perry decided to commit to the band in 1998 Smith would have stayed on. Well, that's certainly the impression he gave on the BTM...but we've been down this road before haven't we?

You're wrong. 1998 was too late. He waited for whatever length of time he had set aside for Journey, and then went back to Vital Information. If Perry had come back in 1998, Steve Smith would have had other commitments. He left BEFORE Perry was fired.

[Matthew]

By ALL accounts, Journey had always completed the writing process of songs with the entire band's input. ROR is the ONLY Journey album where the bass and drums were not contributing to that process. That is a FACT. Deal with it.

I'm dealing with it just fine, Monker. I love the album and have no complaints about how it was recorded. You on the other hand still no have acceptance about this era of the band twenty years on.

To say that Perry/Schon/Cain TOLD Steve Smith how to perform on every song he recorded with Journey is pure stupidity.

Sure - but that's not what I said. Steve Smith contributed to the arrangements but he didn't write the melody or the lyrics on the four albums he wasn't shut out on. Had he done so we'd see his name on the credits. How about trying to deal with that?

Ah, yes, and Journey just always followed musical trends...sure they did.

I think Journey moved with the times. No, they didn't slavishly follow every trend - but they modernized their production to sound as contemporary as possible - and in much the same way as every other successful rock band did in the 1980s.

They were a BAND up until 1986. After ROR, they fell apart, never to completely recover. Again, that is a FACT, deal with it.

No - they were a band up until the end of the Frontiers tour in '83. You can try to keep pinning this all on Perry's control-freakery in '86 but the fact is that the hiatus and the solo projects were far more damaging to the band than telling Steve Smith to stick to a simple drum drack was. That hiatus was a group decision - but if you're looking to scapegoat individuals then look no further than Neal Schon who kept disrupting the group ethos with his side projects - with HSAS possibly having the most destructive consequences of all.

I don't really care why he didn't embrace a particular style. I care why he didn't embrace Journey's new way of writing and recording. He was COMPLETELY in the right to rebel against it.

No matter how hard you try to whitewash it Monker....it seems to me that Smith has owned his part in the fall out in 1986 and has learned from the mistakes he made. Perry has done the same. Only you keep insisting that Smith must forever be portrayed as some victim figure.

Here's Smith in an interview in Modern Drummers back in 1997:

Before, the band was incredibly important to me and the outlet was really crucial in that I wanted to demonstrate everything I knew, my ability and knowledge--and I was trying to squeeze everything in, which can cause a lot of tension.

In some ways it can create some great music, and there's something to be said for that. But behind that, there was also somewhat of a lack of awareness of what might be the most appropriate thing to play. Now I just cut to the chase without taking some unnecessary, circuitous route.

Having a lot of experience as a hired hand now, I do what the people who hire me want, and there are boundaries to be creative within, which is the challenge so I take the challenge and if they like it, great, and if they don't, I'm not attached to it; I'm just there to do my job. I've learned something through the experience, but I'm not attached to it. I approached this situation with that sense of professionalism and objectivity.

Oh, please, he produced the damn album. If he is going to take such a lofty position, he needs to take responsibility for the results as well.

Perry has never shirked responsibility for the album. In fact, he defends it to this day and rightly so. My point was that the early writing and recording sessions - and the early experimentation with technology - took place without Perry being there. This isn't to excuse anything. It's just another example - among many - to illustrate how Schon and Cain played a bigger part in ROR than you make out....

You're wrong. 1998 was too late. He waited for whatever length of time he had set aside for Journey, and then went back to Vital Information. If Perry had come back in 1998, Steve Smith would have had other commitments. He left BEFORE Perry was fired.

But he was asked to rejoin the band and go on tour wasn't he? And when he was told it would be without Perry he said: "No way..."

[Eric]

My memory is that Smith didn't want to be part of the rebuilding process when he had an established band of his own......

[NealIsGod]

That hiatus was a group decision - but if you're looking to scapegoat individuals then look no further than Neal Schon who kept disrupting the group ethos with his side projects - with HSAS possibly having the most destructive consequences of all.

You're talking out of your ass. Schon has always been 100% committed to Journey. Perry is the one who "never felt like part of the band" and is the sole reason they hung it up from 1986 to 1996. And he is also the reason it fell apart again. Perry is the one who was too fickle to handle being in a band anymore.

[Matthew]

That hiatus was a group decision - but if you're looking to scapegoat individuals then look no further than Neal Schon who kept disrupting the group ethos with his side projects - with HSAS possibly having the most destructive consequences of all.

You're talking out of your ass. Schon has always been 100% committed to Journey. Perry is the one who "never felt like part of the band" and is the sole reason they hung it up from 1986 to 1996. And he is also the reason it fell apart again. Perry is the one who was too fickle to handle being in a band anymore.

100% committed? How many side-project albums did Schon release during Journey's peak? Three? Or was it four? And it really is no secret that this caused tensions within the band....

And Perry was 100% responsible for everything going wrong? Well, he wasn't solely responsible for the crucial three year hiatus in 1984-1986, was he?

Nor can you blame him for the plummeting album sales either....given that you keep banging on about how the credit for the success in the first place should be handed out equally amongst all the band members.

And you can't hold Perry responsible for Cain and Schon decciding to form Bad English instead of hiring a new singer in Journey....

Sure - we all know that Perry felt he couldn't go on and even his most loyal supporters have been frustrated and baffled by his behaviour in '86 and '98. God knows I have...

But Schon has had TWENTY ONE years to try and fill the void Perry left in early 1987....and to get Journey 'back on track'. If you want to know why Journey have let you down so badly since then then surely you must hold Neal "100% committed" Schon at least PARTLY responsible.

Honestly Nig...this kind of extreme, black and white thinking makes you sound like a such fanatic....

[NealIsGod]

That hiatus was a group decision - but if you're looking to scapegoat individuals then look no further than Neal Schon who kept disrupting the group ethos with his side projects - with HSAS possibly having the most destructive consequences of all.

You're talking out of your ass. Schon has always been 100% committed to Journey. Perry is the one who "never felt like part of the band" and is the sole reason they hung it up from 1986 to 1996. And he is also the reason it fell apart again. Perry is the one who was too fickle to handle being in a band anymore.

100% committed? How many side-project albums did Schon release during Journey's peak? Three? Or was it four? And Perry and Herbert have been totally open about the fact that this caused tensions within the band.

And Perry was 100% responsible for everything going wrong? Well, he wasn't solely responsible for the crucial three year hiatus in 1984-1986, was he?

Nor can you blame him for the plummeting album sales either....given that you keep banging on about how the credit for the success in the first place should be handed out equally amongst all the band members.

And you can't hold Perry responsible for Cain and Schon decciding to form Bad English instead of hiring a new singer in Journey....

Sure - we all know that Perry felt he couldn't go on and even his most loyal supporters have been frustrated and baffled by his behaviour in '86 and '98. God knows I have...

But Schon has had TWENTY ONE years to try and fill the void Perry left in early 1987....and to get Journey 'back on track'. If you want to know why Journey have let you down so badly since then then surely you must hold Neal "100% committed" Schon at least PARTLY responsible.

Honestly Nig...this kind of extreme, black and white thinking makes you sound like a such fanatic....

Everyone knows Schon can't sit still. It's what makes him a great musician. If Perry would have wanted to continue to make albums and tour, then they would have. You act like Perry was waiting for Neal instead of the other way around.

[Matthew]

Everyone knows Schon can't sit still. It's what makes him a great musician. If Perry would have wanted to continue to make albums and tour, then they would have. You act like Perry was waiting for Neal instead of the other way around.

Eh? Where do I give the impression that Perry was waiting for Neal? All I said was that Schon pissed Perry off during the band's peak for NOT being 100% committed...ironic given later events, I''ll admit...and that Schon's passivity and reliance on Perry was a key reason why nothing happened in Journey for ten years after ROR.

[Moon Beam]

100% committed? How many side-project albums did Schon release during Journey's peak? Three? Or was it four? And it really is no secret that this caused tensions within the band...

That's the whole point for me Matthew.
Neal always continued to make new music.
It is irrelevant that it was solo stuff.
I love Perry, he has always been my fave vocalist
but he only tried making new music a few times then
stopped.......no I do not consider backing vocals on others
works as a new musical effort.

[NealIsGod]

Everyone knows Schon can't sit still. It's what makes him a great musician. If Perry would have wanted to continue to make albums and tour, then they would have. You act like Perry was waiting for Neal instead of the other way around.

Eh? Where do I give the impression that Perry was waiting for Neal? All I said was that Schon pissed Perry off during the band's peak for NOT being 100% committed...ironic given later events, I''ll admit...and that Schon's passivity and reliance on Perry was a key reason why nothing happened in Journey for ten years after ROR.

So... you say Schon relied on Perry, but he was able to form a pretty kick ass band with Bad English and another with Hardline, not to mention HSAS. How is that relying on Perry?

[Matthew]

100% committed? How many side-project albums did Schon release during Journey's peak? Three? Or was it four? And it really is no secret that this caused tensions within the band...

That's the whole point for me Matthew.
Neal always continued to make new music.
It is irrelevant that it was solo stuff.
I love Perry, he has always been my fave vocalist
but he only tried making new music a few times then
stopped.......no I do not consider backing vocals on others
works is a new musical effort.

Sure Moon Beam...I wish Perry was as profilic as Schon...but this argument is about Journey's break up in the mid-80s. And by 1984 Neal's solo projects weren't at all irrelevant to the group dynamic at that time.

All I'm arguing in this thread is that everyone played a role in the band falling apart. Some more than others to be sure - but the portrayal of Smith and Schon in particular as Saint-like martyrs in all this really is a load of old tosh.

[Matthew]

Everyone knows Schon can't sit still. It's what makes him a great musician. If Perry would have wanted to continue to make albums and tour, then they would have. You act like Perry was waiting for Neal instead of the other way around.

Eh? Where do I give the impression that Perry was waiting for Neal? All I said was that Schon pissed Perry off during the band's peak for NOT being 100% committed...ironic given later events, I''ll admit...and that Schon's passivity and reliance on Perry was a key reason why nothing happened in Journey for ten years after ROR.

So... you say Schon relied on Perry, but he was able to form a pretty kick ass band with Bad English and another with Hardline, not to mention HSAS. How is that relying on Perry?

I said: "Schon's passivity and reliance on Perry was a key reason why nothing happened IN JOURNEY for ten years after ROR."

NIG - have you had your morning coffee yet?

[Moon Beam]

I don't think that Schon's solo efforts had anything to do
with them not making new music for years.
I think their ego's with each other when working together
had a big chunk of that break up.

[NealIsGod]

Everyone knows Schon can't sit still. It's what makes him a great musician. If Perry would have wanted to continue to make albums and tour, then they would have. You act like Perry was waiting for Neal instead of the other way around.

Eh? Where do I give the impression that Perry was waiting for Neal? All I said was that Schon pissed Perry off during the band's peak for NOT being 100% committed...ironic given later events, I''ll admit...and that Schon's passivity and reliance on Perry was a key reason why nothing happened in Journey for ten years after ROR.

So... you say Schon relied on Perry, but he was able to form a pretty kick ass band with Bad English and another with Hardline, not to mention HSAS. How is that relying on Perry?

I said: "Schon's passivity and reliance on Perry was a key reason why nothing happened IN JOURNEY for ten years after ROR."

NIG - have you had your morning coffee yet?

You say "passivity and reliance", I say "giving a crucial band member space and time to get his shit together".

[NoMoreTails]

That hiatus was a group decision - but if you're looking to scapegoat individuals then look no further than Neal Schon who kept disrupting the group ethos with his side projects - with HSAS possibly having the most destructive consequences of all.

Absolute BS. From what I read at the time HSAS was only about a 6 week project from the writing to rehearsal to the live show, the Schon & Hammer albumes took about a month apiece. I doubt Perry cared in the least, he just wanted an excuse for launching his solo career.

[Matthew]

You say "passivity and reliance", I say "giving a crucial band member space and time to get his shit together".

You make it sound like the noble and generous act. We could equal;ly say..."waiting around for his meal-ticket to arrive in the post".

[Matthew]

That hiatus was a group decision - but if you're looking to scapegoat individuals then look no further than Neal Schon who kept disrupting the group ethos with his side projects - with HSAS possibly having the most destructive consequences of all.

Absolute BS. From what I read at the time HSAS was only about a 6 week project from the writing to rehearsal to the live show, the Schon & Hammer albumes took about a month apiece. I doubt Perry cared in the least, he just wanted an excuse for launching his solo career.

You doubt Perry cared in the least? Well, Perry said himself that he did care.

You can dismiss this as him creating excuses to record his own solo stuff...but why would Perry need an excuse? Surely the fact remains that rightly or wrongly Schon/Hammer and HSAS did cause tensions....and it represented the first stages in the disintegration of the band.

Why does saying this touch such a nerve with you slavish devotees of Neal Schon?

[NealIsGod]

You say "passivity and reliance", I say "giving a crucial band member space and time to get his shit together".

You make it sound like the noble and generous act. We could equal;ly say..."waiting around for his meal-ticket to arrive in the post".

And if Neal and Jon had brought in a new singer in 1987 or 88, they would have been vilified for turning their backs on Perry.

They can't win with you loons.

[Eric]

So... you say Schon relied on Perry, but he was able to form a pretty kick ass band with Bad English and another with Hardline, not to mention HSAS. How is that relying on Perry?

This is evidence that he tried to wait for Perry.

[Matthew]

You say "passivity and reliance", I say "giving a crucial band member space and time to get his shit together".

You make it sound like the noble and generous act. We could equal;ly say..."waiting around for his meal-ticket to arrive in the post".

And if Neal and Jon had brought in a new singer in 1987 or 88, they would have been vilified for turning their backs on Perry.

They can't win with you loons.

Oh what are you going on about NIG? I think Schon and Cain did exactly the right thing from 1987 to 1998.

All I'm saying that not EVERYTHING that went on after 1983 was Steve Perry's fault. If you hadn't so bitterly demonised the guy for so many years you'd still have enough rationality and common sense to see that every band member - to a greater or lesser extent - had a part to play.

[NealIsGod]

You say "passivity and reliance", I say "giving a crucial band member space and time to get his shit together".

You make it sound like the noble and generous act. We could equal;ly say..."waiting around for his meal-ticket to arrive in the post".

And if Neal and Jon had brought in a new singer in 1987 or 88, they would have been vilified for turning their backs on Perry.

They can't win with you loons.

Oh what are you going on about NIG? I think Schon and Cain did exactly the right thing in '87. And so did Perry. Journey's time had come and gone.

All I'm saying that not EVERYTHING that went on after 1983 was Steve Perry's fault. If you hadn't so bitterly demonised the guy for so many years you'd still have enough rationality and common sense to see that every band member - to a greater or lesser extent - had a part to play.

Don't complicate it - If Perry wanted to be in Journey, the band would have continued. You can blame whoever you want for driving Perry away from the music biz for 8 years, but Perry himself made that decision.

[Rockindeano]

So... you say Schon relied on Perry, but he was able to form a pretty kick ass band with Bad English and another with Hardline, not to mention HSAS. How is that relying on Perry?

This is evidence that he tried to wait for Perry.

Euro, Neal didn't try to wait on Perry...He DID wait on Perry, too fucking long I might add. That is all on Perry. You cannot spin the fact that Espee was a big boy..he had a job to do and simply said "fuck it" I am taking the day, week, month and decade off. Where Neal and Princess fucked up was they actually waited for him.

[AR]

I got a rock.

[Matthew]

Don't complicate it - If Perry wanted to be in Journey, the band would have continued. You can blame whoever you want for driving Perry away from the music biz for 8 years, but Perry himself made that decision.

Are you talking to me NIG? When did I blame anyone for "driving Perry away from the music biz?

Sure - Schon would have followed Perry's lead whatever Perry decided to do. But Perry decided to move on. So I repeat - is it Perry's fault that Schon decided against hiring a new singer to 'let the Journey continue' in the late 1980s?

Amazing to think that I'm having to spell this out to one of the goons who have repeatedly argued that Perry was 'just another band member'. If Perry was so replaceable then you wouldn't be bitching at him twenty years on for leaving. You'd be bitching at Schon for not having hired someone else sooner....

[Matthew]

Euro, Neal didn't try to wait on Perry...He DID wait on Perry, too fucking long I might add. That is all on Perry.[/quote You cannot spin the fact that Espee was a big boy..

No- I'm trying to make the case that Schon is a big boy who is responsible for his own life. He waited for Perry. Fine. That was HIS choice.

Where Neal and Princess fucked up was they actually waited for him.

Fair enough. At least you're acknowledging that Schon had his part to play in the band's downward spiral. Which is the simple and - I had imagined - uncontroversial point I was making.

[NealIsGod]

I'm not a goon, Matthew. Don't take out your frustration at being passed around TBJF like a prison bitch out on me.

[NoMoreTails]

You doubt Perry cared in the least? Well, Perry said himself that he did care.

You can dismiss this as him creating excuses to record his own solo stuff...but why would Perry need an excuse? Surely the fact remains that rightly or wrongly Schon/Hammer and HSAS did cause tensions....and it represented the first stages in the disintegration of the band.

Why does saying this touch such a nerve with you slavish devotees of Neal Schon?

I don't think Perry needed an excuse, but apparently he thought he did.
Perry was plotting his exit from Journey for a solo career as early as prior to recording Frontiers as Cain once stated that upon Jon's revealing Faithfully Perry asked for it for his solo record. Even if Schon made it know that he wanted HSAS to be a premanent arrangement I don't believe Perry cared in the least as he was about to work on Street Talk, likely with no intention of ever returning to Journey. What strikes a nerve is your unwillingness to see Perry's demolition of the band between Frontiers and ROR.

[Matthew]

I'm not a goon, Matthew. Don't take out your frustration at being passed around TBJF like a prison bitch out on me.

And to think I was under the impression that I'd put those morons straight...

[Matthew]

I don't think Perry needed an excuse, but apparently he thought he did.
Perry was plotting his exit from Journey for a solo career as early as prior to recording Frontiers as Cain once stated that upon Jon's revealing Faithfully Perry asked for it for his solo record.

NMT - what evidence is there that Perry was plotting to leave Journey and opposed to simply doing a solo album whilst remaining a member of Journey? I'm curious...

Even if Schon made it know that he wanted HSAS to be a premanent arrangement I don't believe Perry cared in the least as he was about to work on Street Talk, likely with no intention of ever returning to Journey. What strikes a nerve is your unwillingness to see Perry's demolition of the band between Frontiers and ROR.

Right...Schon releases three albums outside of Journey and no-one cares and it's completely harmless. Whereas Perry releases one solo album and he demolishes the band.

I'm not denying that Perry was the main reason for the band's demise in '87. He was the main reason for the band's success, after all - so it would figure....but come on NMT....you can't pin the hiatus entirely on Perry.