Why Steve Smith will never return to Journey

[RockInDetroit]

Could someone fill me in? Not sure I understand why many say Steve Smith would only return if Steve Perry returned. I thought Steve Smith was fired by Perry from Journey before Radio On the Radio.

[amaron]

Could someone fill me in? Not sure I understand why many say Steve Smith would only return if Steve Perry returned. I thought Steve Smith was fired by Perry from Journey before Radio On the Radio.

If I'm not mistaken, Cain was the one who made the call to Valory and Smith.

I'm sure there was a LARGE monetary sum given to Smith and Valory for the reunion. Money seems to make things hurt less.

[brandonx76]

Could someone fill me in? Not sure I understand why many say Steve Smith would only return if Steve Perry returned. I thought Steve Smith was fired by Perry from Journey before Radio On the Radio.

If I'm not mistaken, Cain was the one who made the call to Valory and Smith.

I'm sure there was a LARGE monetary sum given to Smith and Valory for the reunion. Money seems to make things hurt less.

Money....and....Time

[RockInDetroit]

Could someone fill me in? Not sure I understand why many say Steve Smith would only return if Steve Perry returned. I thought Steve Smith was fired by Perry from Journey before Radio On the Radio.

If I'm not mistaken, Cain was the one who made the call to Valory and Smith.

I'm sure there was a LARGE monetary sum given to Smith and Valory for the reunion. Money seems to make things hurt less.

Are you kidding? You think Cain had that kinda clout back then? He was only on two albums at the time. It was Perry.

On VH1s Behind the Music they all said it was Perry not Cain. When I say 'all' I believe even Perry admitted it. Perry was viewed as a perfectionist who felt Smith and Valary were not holding their own.

Everyone wants to blame Cain.

[amaron]

Could someone fill me in? Not sure I understand why many say Steve Smith would only return if Steve Perry returned. I thought Steve Smith was fired by Perry from Journey before Radio On the Radio.

If I'm not mistaken, Cain was the one who made the call to Valory and Smith.

I'm sure there was a LARGE monetary sum given to Smith and Valory for the reunion. Money seems to make things hurt less.

Money....and....Time

Time dulls the pain.

Money makes it go away.

[amaron]

Could someone fill me in? Not sure I understand why many say Steve Smith would only return if Steve Perry returned. I thought Steve Smith was fired by Perry from Journey before Radio On the Radio.

If I'm not mistaken, Cain was the one who made the call to Valory and Smith.

I'm sure there was a LARGE monetary sum given to Smith and Valory for the reunion. Money seems to make things hurt less.

Are you kidding? You think Cain had that kinda clout back then? He was only on two albums at the time. It was Perry.

On VH1s Behind the Music they all said it was Perry not Cain. When I say 'all' I believe even Perry admitted it. Perry was viewed as a perfectionist who felt Smith and Valary were not holding their own.

Everyone wants to blame Cain.

You misread what I posted.

Perry made the decision, Cain made the call to Valory and Smith to inform them.

EDIT: I MIGHT be getting two things confused. I might be thinking of Cain calling Perry in 97. I remember Cain saying something in the BTM like "so I made the call."

[RockInDetroit]

Ok, so Cain made the call: Perry or Valory/Smith.

Still Perry was the one who wanted Smith out. So I don't see why Smith would only come back if Perry were there.

[chad]

Could someone fill me in? Not sure I understand why many say Steve Smith would only return if Steve Perry returned. I thought Steve Smith was fired by Perry from Journey before Radio On the Radio.

If I'm not mistaken, Cain was the one who made the call to Valory and Smith.

I'm sure there was a LARGE monetary sum given to Smith and Valory for the reunion. Money seems to make things hurt less.

Are you kidding? You think Cain had that kinda clout back then? He was only on two albums at the time. It was Perry.

On VH1s Behind the Music they all said it was Perry not Cain. When I say 'all' I believe even Perry admitted it. Perry was viewed as a perfectionist who felt Smith and Valary were not holding their own.

Everyone wants to blame Cain.

Perry didn't feel Smith and Valory were not holding their own....it had to do with creative difference, song selection, etc.

[Arkansas]

So I don't see why Smith would only come back if Perry were there.

Oh I think that Smith was being prophetic. I believe what he meant was that he didn't see Journey ever being BIG again without Perry. Therefore, he wasn't interested in being in anything less. It had nothing to do with personal animosity, and every thing to do with making a sound business decision. He'd rather play jazz than do the corndog circuit.


later~

[Monker]

So the success of grunge/alternative did indirectly kill off AOR as a real mainstream commnercial force. And the popularity of hip-hop amongst white suburban kids was another reason why melodic rock bands became marginalised.

No, it didn't. The fact that fail to recognize is that by 1988 bands like Journey, Styx, Foreigner, Kansas, etc, were ALREADY breaking up or struggling...MR was no longer as popular as it was in 1981. The truth is, IMO, another generation wanted 'their music'...and it wasn't going to be MR, and wasn't going to be the excessiveness of glam...which, if we are honest about it, the 80's generation latched onto.

The Eagles reunion was quite different. They were a country-rock band from the 1970s - and had no associations with the 1980s at all. As for Styx, Journey, Foreigner...yes, they did get a bit of attention but nothing like the popularity they enjoyed in the 1980s. And not even Herbie Herbert could have bucked the downward trend in the 1990s....as any member of Mr Big can tell you.

True...But, "Hell Freezes Over" turned those bands into "Heritage" bands...and they are all sorta lumped together regardless of genre....It just happens that many from the early '80s are MR bands.

As for Bad English..they "made waves" in 1989. Their next - and last - album was released in 1991 which was the same year "Nevermind" came out. And what happened? It sank with barely a trace. So I don't know why you are bringing Bad English into the equation here.

"Backlash" sank simply because the band broke up before the album was even released. Why would anybody want to promote, or play, a band that didn't even exist any longer. Shortly after it was released, Neal was in Hardline and promoting it as the next band that was to make it big. The truth is, it did not sink because of grunge, and are also the only Journey related band to have a #1 single.

[Rick]

Journey should have stuck with the successful format. Escape and Frontiers were monsters. Escape had such great songs about ordinary Joes, it hit home with lots of folks. It had great melodies and hooks and talked about life's issues. Frontiers, while being a more serious record, did much of the same. Not as well for me though.

Then they just throw all of that out the window and do ROR. WTF? SP might have cowritten some great songs, but he should have never been let in control. It only got worse on TBF.

I like nearly every track on Escape. I like many on Frontiers. I like a few on ROR, and I like two on TBF. It just went into a nose dive. For me anyway. Speaking of Anyway, that's the ONLY song I like from FTLOSM, and there's only a couple from Street Talk I like.

I realize that times change and music changes with it, but I'm damn sure that Journey got derailed, and I think it was the control freak that fucked it up. I love the guys voice, it's second to none, and would pay big bucks to see him front Journey again, but he did fuck it up.

[Monker]

He was hired for the same reasons Perry was - and that included bring a more vocal sounds to a mostly instrumental band.

That is hilarious Monker...."more vocal sounds"...like it was an mere embellishment rather than one of the MAIN REASONS for Journey's eventual success.

You are missing the point. Even before Infinity, on the "Next" album, Journey was trying to move a way from being a mostly instrumental band and more of a vocal band. That is why they hired Fleischman, to be a front-man and be dedicated to singing...not a singer/guitarist or a singer/keyboardist.

In fact, I would take "Wheel In the Sky" over something like "Patiently" any day.

Oh I'm sure you would. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if you said it was the greatest song you ever heard.

Oh, I don't know if I'd say that. I'd say the same thing about other Journey songs too. I like "Mother Father" more then Patiently too. What, you a bit pissed that I dissed a Perry song?

The truth is that Fleischman DID contribute to Journey without even recording an album with him. Even his solo album from way back then had a bunch of songs sharing writing credits with Gregg and Neal...and they sound VERY much like Journey songs.

Well, it's certainly true that Mr Big had a Number One hit single in 1992 with "To Be With You" but other than that this moment of glory the band were nowhere near as big as Journey were in the early 1980s. Nowhere near. And by 1994 Mr Big weren't charting at all. Whereas Journey were....

He had other bands he managed as well. His career did not slip at all...he simply broadened his base since he did not have to spend any time concentrating on Journey.

Absolutely. He took over Herbie's job. He was even deciding album covers and album names. He took on changing their sound and the band itself. Yes, it is Perry's fault - he took on the role and he should take the responsibility.

I've already said - twice - that Perry has taken the responsibility for ROR and has never distanced himself from that project. As for the power shift...well, of course that happened. But this was a serious flaw in Herbert's management. He got out-witted by the talent. Hardly the act of an awesome Zvengali who can do no wrong.

Then quit asking "Is that Perry's fault too?" when you already know the answer...Do you just need me to make a post so you are reminded that Steve Perry already said these things?

Also, he did not get "out-witted". He got out-voted. Neal and Cain where the dim-wits who sided with Perry during both ROR and TBF.

IMO - 1985-87 was under PERRY's watch - not Herbie's.

I'd agree. And in that time they recorded their third AOR masterpiece in a row...
[/quote]

A 'masterpiece'? I would not even consider Frontiers a 'masterpiece'. Escape, and maybe Infinity are Journey's "masterpieces". THOSE are the times where all of the band's creative talent came TOGETHER to create the best art they could deliver. ROR was FAR from a masterpiece.

Monker - if ROR hadn't sucked in your world it would still absolutely kill you to give Perry any credit.

You're wrong. When I picked ROR back then, I was EXPECTING to hear this 'masterpiece', in your words. Instead I heard pop crap. If I had heard the excellence that I knew could deliver, which followed all of the Perry interviews, which followed the success of Street Talk, I would be giving Perry a HUGE amount of credit since he took so much control over the album.

A couple of pages back I tried to demonstrate to NMT that I wasn't some flaming Perry fanatic and I listed a few criticisms of the guy to show that I was capable of being vaguely reasonable and balanced on the subject. One day I'd love to hear you come up with - say - five reasons why Perry was good for this band or what makes him an extraordinary talent or ANYTHING which isn't whiney or bitchy about the guy.

Five reasons Perry was good for the band:
All of his vocals on album from Infinity thru ROR.
His outstanding vocals when they were at their peak on the Departure tour.
LTS
Recording "Open Arms" when others did not want to.
loosening up the reigns the past few years and allowing 'classic' Journey music to have other outlet on film and TV.

[Matthew]

The fact that fail to recognize is that by 1988 bands like Journey, Styx, Foreigner, Kansas, etc, were ALREADY breaking up or struggling...MR was no longer as popular as it was in 1981. The truth is, IMO, another generation wanted 'their music'...and it wasn't going to be MR, and wasn't going to be the excessiveness of glam...which, if we are honest about it, the 80's generation latched onto.

I agree Monker...but in my defence of the ROR era I've just been arguing that AOR in general was in decline and you have been arguing that it wasn't - and that had Herbert retained control the possibilities for Journey in the late 80s/early 90s would have been limitless. Or have I misunderstood you?

"Backlash" sank simply because the band broke up before the album was even released. Why would anybody want to promote, or play, a band that didn't even exist any longer. Shortly after it was released, Neal was in Hardline and promoting it as the next band that was to make it big. The truth is, it did not sink because of grunge, and are also the only Journey related band to have a #1 single.

Yes, good point about Bad English splitting up before Backlash came out. The mention of the Number One single is irrelevant though to our conversation about the imapct of grunge because it was a hit in 1989.

[Matthew]

So I don't see why Smith would only come back if Perry were there.

Oh I think that Smith was being prophetic. I believe what he meant was that he didn't see Journey ever being BIG again without Perry. Therefore, he wasn't interested in being in anything less. It had nothing to do with personal animosity, and every thing to do with making a sound business decision. He'd rather play jazz than do the corndog circuit.


later~

I totally agree Arkansas....

[Matthew]

You are missing the point. Even before Infinity, on the "Next" album, Journey was trying to move a way from being a mostly instrumental band and more of a vocal band. That is why they hired Fleischman, to be a front-man and be dedicated to singing...not a singer/guitarist or a singer/keyboardist.

No - I didn't miss the point. That was my point. That Fleischman was hired to be a frontman and lead vocalist and that is why Fleischman can be considered as an example of Herbert making a mistake....irregardless of Fleischman's minor song-writing role.

Oh, I don't know if I'd say that. I'd say the same thing about other Journey songs too. I like "Mother Father" more then Patiently too. What, you a bit pissed that I dissed a Perry song?

No - I've simply noticed that many fans who are essentially hostile to Perry - like yourself - routinely inflate the significance and talent of Fleischman in an attempt to minimize Perry's place in the band's history.

The truth is that Fleischman DID contribute to Journey without even recording an album with him. Even his solo album from way back then had a bunch of songs sharing writing credits with Gregg and Neal...and they sound VERY much like Journey songs.

True - and I like that solo album. But it came out in 1979 so I'm not sure how this contributed to Journey's sound - given that it most resembles Infinity and Evolution which had already been released and recorded.

He had other bands he managed as well. His career did not slip at all...he simply broadened his base since he did not have to spend any time concentrating on Journey.

Broadened his base? Or spread himself too thinly? Either way - his career peaked with Journey back in the early 80s.

Then quit asking "Is that Perry's fault too?" when you already know the answer...Do you just need me to make a post so you are reminded that Steve Perry already said these things?

Yes. Please remind me....

Also, he did not get "out-witted". He got out-voted. Neal and Cain where the dim-wits who sided with Perry during both ROR and TBF.

Then Herbert must take responsibility for not being persuasive or credible enough to win Schon and Cain around. His job was to manage the band. He was in a position of authority and he lost that authority. And you expect us to believe that Hebert could have kept Journey at the top for another decade when he couldn't even keep on top of his own band?

A 'masterpiece'? I would not even consider Frontiers a 'masterpiece'. Escape, and maybe Infinity are Journey's "masterpieces". THOSE are the times where all of the band's creative talent came TOGETHER to create the best art they could deliver. ROR was FAR from a masterpiece.

We'll have to agree to differ on this, Monker. To me Frontiers and ROR are masterpieces of the genre. But both of our views on this are highly subjective...

You're wrong. When I picked ROR back then, I was EXPECTING to hear this 'masterpiece', in your words. Instead I heard pop crap. If I had heard the excellence that I knew could deliver, which followed all of the Perry interviews, which followed the success of Street Talk, I would be giving Perry a HUGE amount of credit since he took so much control over the album.

Okay Monker. Fair enough. I just don't think I've ever heard you praise the guy even when he has - in your view - delivered.

Five reasons Perry was good for the band:
All of his vocals on album from Infinity thru ROR.
His outstanding vocals when they were at their peak on the Departure tour.
LTS
Recording "Open Arms" when others did not want to.
loosening up the reigns the past few years and allowing 'classic' Journey music to have other outlet on film and TV.

Until now!

I stand corrected, Monker. Although putting in "LTS" as the only example of his song-writing contributions to the band is a little low on generosity, don't you think?