OT: The resurrection

[conversationpc]

Just a recommendation here... There is a great little book that talks a bit about the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus. It is called More Than A Carpenter by Josh McDowell. He didn't buy the evidence either and while setting out to find the evidence went from an atheist to a believer. Anyway, just to put that out there.

A similar thing happened to Lee Strobel, former legal editor for the Chicago Tribune and rabid atheist. By rabid, I mean he absolutely hated Christianity with a passion and all it stood for. By his own account, he lived a very immoral life and was on the road to ruining his marriage and his relationship with his children. His wife became a Christian and he set out to try to prove Christianity false. He ended up becoming a Christian in the process, similar to what happened with Josh McDowell. He's written several good books: "The Case for Christ", "The Case for Easter", etc.

[Indyjoe]

Just a recommendation here... There is a great little book that talks a bit about the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus. It is called More Than A Carpenter by Josh McDowell. He didn't buy the evidence either and while setting out to find the evidence went from an atheist to a believer. Anyway, just to put that out there.

A similar thing happened to Lee Strobel, former legal editor for the Chicago Tribune and rabid atheist. By rabid, I mean he absolutely hated Christianity with a passion and all it stood for. His wife became a Christian and he set out to try to prove Christianity false. He ended up becoming a Christian in the process, similar to what happened with Josh McDowell. He's written several good books: "The Case for Christ", "The Case for Easter", etc.

Thanks, I thought about some of those as well but thought there would be no way the person I was recommending to would read those. I do hope he might give a chance to the little book, or to those!

I appreciate the thoughtful way that you can give an "answer", which is what I was referring to in my post to you in the SouthBenders thread.

~Wendy

[conversationpc]

I appreciate the thoughtful way that you can give an "answer", which is what I was referring to in my post to you in the SouthBenders thread.

Thanks but I fear that I too often revert to my more emotional side and wear it on my sleeve when I ought to take the kinder, gentler approach. I find it hard to remove myself from that, though.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

I appreciate the thoughtful way that you can give an "answer", which is what I was referring to in my post to you in the SouthBenders thread.

Thanks but I fear that I too often revert to my more emotional side and wear it on my sleeve when I ought to take the kinder, gentler approach. I find it hard to remove myself from that, though.

I knew you were a girl all along!

I think the thing to consider in just about everything in life is that stuff is about belief. The evidence was staggering against O.J. but the jury still believed him innocent. Despite the geological record some people believe the Earth was created in 6 days per the Bible. How about woman being created from Adam's rib?

I believe that the Bible and the story of Jesus are wonderful however I don't believe that they're at all entirely historical nor accurate accounts of reality. To say that the resurrection truly happened based on the "evidence" of the Bible is purely a matter of BELIEF. One is free to believe whatever one wants however belief doesn't make something true.

Was Eve truly - physically - born of Adam's rib OR is it a clever metaphor that puts Eve at the SIDE of Adam in EQUALITY as the poetic response to the story is that if Eve were born from a bone in Adam's habd then he might pound her - and if she were born from a bone in his foot then he might stomp upon her. Rather, she was "born" of his rib so that she might walk beside him in equality. And as the story explains - she did. She had access to and spoke with God just like Adam did because they were both naked and unashamed which is to say that they were not yet "dead of the spirit" and "born of the flesh".

History of the first two humans or a beautiful metaphor?

What to believe...?

[conversationpc]

I believe that the Bible and the story of Jesus are wonderful however I don't believe that they're at all entirely historical nor accurate accounts of reality. To say that the resurrection truly happened based on the "evidence" of the Bible is purely a matter of BELIEF. One is free to believe whatever one wants however belief doesn't make something true.

I won't get into a debate on origins here but there is actual evidence of the resurrection if you care to look at it. Yes, in the end, it does require faith to put one's trust in Jesus, but it's not a blind kind of faith.

[Rhiannon]

Response coming soon... needed to be edited a little for coherency.

[Indyjoe]

I appreciate the thoughtful way that you can give an "answer", which is what I was referring to in my post to you in the SouthBenders thread.

Thanks but I fear that I too often revert to my more emotional side and wear it on my sleeve when I ought to take the kinder, gentler approach. I find it hard to remove myself from that, though.

What to believe...?

The Truth.

The book I was talking about looks like this...



See if your library has it!! Or the ones Dave mentioned, those are great.

~Wendy

[StoneCold]

I know the op is about the resurrection but I immediately tie it to the end of the world.

Always heard fear is a motivating factor in whether to believe or not.

What keeps most of us from not being criminals in the first place?

[conversationpc]

I know the op is about the resurrection but I immediately tie it to the end of the world.

Always heard fear is a motivating factor in whether to believe or not.

I've never considered fear to be a motivating factor in anything related to my faith. There are some who use it, ala Jonathan Edwards' "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God", but I don't personally think it's effective at all. Most people I know with a genuine faith in Christ began following him out of a sense of grattitude and self-realization that they weren't good enough to "get the job done".

[Indyjoe]

learn Koine Greek (as I did) and read the Gospels in their original language. And dig a little. You'll be surprised what you learn.

I took a brief 16 week class in Koine Greek (1 time a week) offered from a seminary professor - l loved it, but need to dig much deeper. Another class is being offered that is First Year Greek which will be much more difficult. Yikes! That brief one was one of the hardest classes I have ever had! I am not so good at languages.

~Wendy

[Rhiannon]

I spent an entire semester deep in intensive study of the historical basis for religion, the Bible, etc. Including all of the apocrypha, gnostic gospels, and literatures of early Christian societies. My senior thesis was an effort to prove (in sorts) a direct congruency between religious folkloric myth and scientific-based fact.

In studying all this I, personally, found there to be an overwhelming amount of evidence to support the idea of Biblical story as a solid fact. However, the main thing in understanding this is to realize that to read a verse and take from it a literal translation would be profoundly inaccurate. Notwithstanding the chasm in centuries of translation discrepancies, the influence from political ideologies passed down through generations, and all that we in modern-day take for 'granted' about what we know... take yourself out of what you think you understand about these stories, and approach them as if you'd never seen them before. Then understand that the manner in which the Gospels themselves were written (first as oral tradition, and with oral tradition you must understand the subtlties of metaphoric and allegorical understanding that would've been assumed in those times, but are now lost upon the general non-scholastic population).

With as thin of a background in theosophical archaeology as I have, I can say there is an honest link between everything. Including other anthropological factors such as the validity of the location of Christ's tomb and how he even ended up with a tomb. Do you think there was a tomb for everyone? He was not of high social status, nor was he rich by any means, yet he had a tomb. Given to him by one of the 'socialites' of Jerusalem. As a next step in obvious reasoning, we must ask then why did this rich man give away his tomb (which was highly taboo, and by Judaic law made him unclean)?

I could go on for days about this citing examples. But I recommend for any of you that have the time and hunger, learn Koine Greek (as I did) and read the Gospels in their original language. And dig a little. You'll be surprised what you learn.

In the end, and not to state the obvious, it all comes down to faith and willingness to be open minded.

And regardless of what you believe personally, the greatest thing anyone can do is educate themselves. Knowledge is your best bet. And for the believers, what better way to grow in that belief than to learn all you can about it. All sides of the story, every aspect and facet you can find. Then formulate a conclusion for yourself.

*Lecture over.*

[Rhiannon]

I took a brief 16 week class in Koine Greek (1 time a week) offered from a seminary professor - l loved it, but need to dig much deeper. Another class is being offered that is First Year Greek which will be much more difficult. Yikes! That brief one was one of the hardest classes I have ever had! I am not so good at languages.

~Wendy

The only problem with that is the First Year Greek sometimes isn't the Koine Greek, which will prove basically useless in translating the original books. Koine was the 'vulgar' or 'slang' Greek used at the time, also in relation to the oral traditions. If you do decide to take the class though and need any help, I'd be glad to assist.

One of my concentrations was biblical languages. Boring to some, but fun for me.

[RedWingFan]

In studying all this I, personally, found there to be an overwhelming amount of evidence to support the idea of Biblical story as a solid fact.

I knew there was a reason I liked you!

[Indyjoe]

I took a brief 16 week class in Koine Greek (1 time a week) offered from a seminary professor - l loved it, but need to dig much deeper. Another class is being offered that is First Year Greek which will be much more difficult. Yikes! That brief one was one of the hardest classes I have ever had! I am not so good at languages.

~Wendy

The only problem with that is the First Year Greek sometimes isn't the Koine Greek, which will prove basically useless in translating the original books. Koine was the 'vulgar' or 'slang' Greek used at the time, also in relation to the oral traditions. If you do decide to take the class though and need any help, I'd be glad to assist.

Thanks so much!! I need to go back and really study my notes.

~Wendy

[AR]

This is a summary of my master's thesis when I was at St. Mary's Seminary studying to be a priest.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Did Jesus Drink Beer?

A while ago, I was asked by a group of friends during a bull-session, "Did Jesus Christ drink beer?"
I think it is good to talk about Jesus for whatever reason. (Philippians 1: 18 seems to be a precedent.)

We have no direct evidence from the Bible. Thankfully, a major scholar who is also my internet friend helped me find the pertinent information.

A Christian, or other admirer of Jesus, who concludes that He DID NOT drink beer honors His call to good living, and to avoid things that can lead to misbehavior and/or health problems.

A Christian, or other admirer of Jesus, who concluded that He DID drink beer honors His essential humanity, and the theological truth that He was like us in every way except for our sinfulness.

Here are the facts as best I have been able to determine.


Wine was in widespread use, and used ceremonially, for example during the passover feast. Nazarites (people who temporarily or permanently had special abstinences including alcoholic beverages) would not drink it, and John the Baptist did not, a fact for which he was criticized. However, Jesus did drink wine, and was criticized for this. The impossibility of pleasing everyone is very true-to-life.

Fermented grain beverages were widely available in ancient Palestine. My cyberfirend Michael M. Homan has done a scholarly study in which he argues that the Hebrew word often translated "strong drink" was fermented barley, which he think is reasonably considered beer. (A purist might require that "beer" contain hops, and that other such beverates be called ales.) His work is very detailed and paints a vivid and extensive picture of fermented grain beverages in the ancient Near East. After reading this article, I decided that it was clear that such beverages were popular in Jesus's community. Click here to read his article on the subject, and here for his article on the actual meaning of casting bread on the waters.

Wine is fruit juice, which is tasty. It is only thanks to pasteurization and refrigeration that we can enjoy fruit juices unfermented. Though I am not an expert, I would conclude that wine was drunk for its flavor as much as (or more than) for its intoxicating properties.

However, we must think that beer was prepared for its alcohol content, since no one will want to eat soggy bread or barley mush simply because it tastes good. Beer must have been less expensive than wine, since barley is much more plentiful than grapes. It seems to me that beer must have been the party drink for people who wanted to get a buzz.

Actually, the ancient Near East's beer sounds horrible, at least by today's standards. Even Professor Homan's appreciation and scholarship don't really make it sound like something I would want to drink myself. It lacked hops, and could not be enjoyed really cold the way we like it. It seems reasonable to think that many people, even those who wanted the intoxicating effect, did not actually like the warm, flat drink.

In summary, fermented grain beverages that might reasonably be called beer were available in Jesus's community. However, I can find no reason to believe that everybody drank the stuff.

You can decide for yourself whether to believe that Jesus did, or did not, drink beer.

[Rhiannon]

In studying all this I, personally, found there to be an overwhelming amount of evidence to support the idea of Biblical story as a solid fact.

I knew there was a reason I liked you!

I grew up Methodist, my family is your traditional Southern Bible-believin' crowd. Great people. But I had more of an inquisitive mind... I like to find things out for myself. I believe what I believe and typically keep that to myself. Sometimes though things need to be shared.
Thanks

[RedWingFan]

This is a summary of my master's thesis when I was at St. Mary's Seminary studying to be a priest.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Did Jesus Drink Beer?

This is as far as I got!!! LMAO. Can't read anymore

[Rhiannon]

You can decide for yourself whether to believe that Jesus did, or did not, drink beer.

Ed, you are so cool! ...Actually, I remember studying this at one point. My professor had been on a dig in one of the sites believed to be Bethany beyond Jordan and they found ancient remnants of what you might call a micro-brewery.

[Indyjoe]

I took a brief 16 week class in Koine Greek (1 time a week) offered from a seminary professor - l loved it, but need to dig much deeper. Another class is being offered that is First Year Greek which will be much more difficult. Yikes! That brief one was one of the hardest classes I have ever had! I am not so good at languages.

~Wendy

The only problem with that is the First Year Greek sometimes isn't the Koine Greek, which will prove basically useless in translating the original books. Koine was the 'vulgar' or 'slang' Greek used at the time, also in relation to the oral traditions. If you do decide to take the class though and need any help, I'd be glad to assist.

One of my concentrations was biblical languages. Boring to some, but fun for me.

Not boring to me!!! I almost took Hebrew but I just did not think I would be able to do it. I would LOVE to learn it though! Greek seemed easier until I found out that some words had over a hundred forms

~Wendy

[Rhiannon]

One of my concentrations was biblical languages. Boring to some, but fun for me.

Not boring to me!!! I almost took Hebrew but I just did not think I would be able to do it. I would LOVE to learn it though! Greek seemed easier until I found out that some words had over a hundred forms

~Wendy

Oh! Take Hebrew if you can! It is absolutely amazing, a very beautiful language. I only had one course, since my interests were in NT traditions. Greek actually is easier once you get settled into it. It took me until I was into my third course (an exegesis on Paul's letters... all in GREEK! ) to find the rhythm. If you know English, you can learn Greek. That's what my first-semester professor said. Its true.

[Indyjoe]

One of my concentrations was biblical languages. Boring to some, but fun for me.

Not boring to me!!! I almost took Hebrew but I just did not think I would be able to do it. I would LOVE to learn it though! Greek seemed easier until I found out that some words had over a hundred forms

~Wendy

Oh! Take Hebrew if you can! It is absolutely amazing, a very beautiful language. I only had one course, since my interests were in NT traditions. Greek actually is easier once you get settled into it. It took me until I was into my third course (an exegesis on Paul's letters... all in GREEK! ) to find the rhythm. If you know English, you can learn Greek. That's what my first-semester professor said. Its true.

I think I will take it when I can. Your classes sound so interesting!

[Greg]

I spent an entire semester deep in intensive study of the historical basis for religion, the Bible, etc. Including all of the apocrypha, gnostic gospels, and literatures of early Christian societies. My senior thesis was an effort to prove (in sorts) a direct congruency between religious folkloric myth and scientific-based fact.

In studying all this I, personally, found there to be an overwhelming amount of evidence to support the idea of Biblical story as a solid fact. However, the main thing in understanding this is to realize that to read a verse and take from it a literal translation would be profoundly inaccurate. Notwithstanding the chasm in centuries of translation discrepancies, the influence from political ideologies passed down through generations, and all that we in modern-day take for 'granted' about what we know... take yourself out of what you think you understand about these stories, and approach them as if you'd never seen them before. Then understand that the manner in which the Gospels themselves were written (first as oral tradition, and with oral tradition you must understand the subtlties of metaphoric and allegorical understanding that would've been assumed in those times, but are now lost upon the general non-scholastic population).

With as thin of a background in theosophical archaeology as I have, I can say there is an honest link between everything. Including other anthropological factors such as the validity of the location of Christ's tomb and how he even ended up with a tomb. Do you think there was a tomb for everyone? He was not of high social status, nor was he rich by any means, yet he had a tomb. Given to him by one of the 'socialites' of Jerusalem. As a next step in obvious reasoning, we must ask then why did this rich man give away his tomb (which was highly taboo, and by Judaic law made him unclean)?

I could go on for days about this citing examples. But I recommend for any of you that have the time and hunger, learn Koine Greek (as I did) and read the Gospels in their original language. And dig a little. You'll be surprised what you learn.

In the end, and not to state the obvious, it all comes down to faith and willingness to be open minded.

And regardless of what you believe personally, the greatest thing anyone can do is educate themselves. Knowledge is your best bet. And for the believers, what better way to grow in that belief than to learn all you can about it. All sides of the story, every aspect and facet you can find. Then formulate a conclusion for yourself.

*Lecture over.*

Now I know why I like you so much Ri!

[CatEyes]

And regardless of what you believe personally, the greatest thing anyone can do is educate themselves. Knowledge is your best bet. And for the believers, what better way to grow in that belief than to learn all you can about it. All sides of the story, every aspect and facet you can find. Then formulate a conclusion for yourself.

*Lecture over.*

Absofrigginglutely.



Cat

[Rhiannon]

I guess I'm the resident Theologian now, huh?

[CatEyes]

I guess I'm the resident Theologian now, huh?

Amen, sistah!!!

[Wheels Of Fyre]

In studying all this I, personally, found there to be an overwhelming amount of evidence to support the idea of Biblical story as a solid fact.

Name ONE piece of "evidence".

[Wheels Of Fyre]

I believe that the Bible and the story of Jesus are wonderful however I don't believe that they're at all entirely historical nor accurate accounts of reality. To say that the resurrection truly happened based on the "evidence" of the Bible is purely a matter of BELIEF. One is free to believe whatever one wants however belief doesn't make something true.

I won't get into a debate on origins here but there is actual evidence of the resurrection if you care to look at it. Yes, in the end, it does require faith to put one's trust in Jesus, but it's not a blind kind of faith.

And do you still believe in Santa Claus...?

[Wheels Of Fyre]

I appreciate the thoughtful way that you can give an "answer", which is what I was referring to in my post to you in the SouthBenders thread.

Thanks but I fear that I too often revert to my more emotional side and wear it on my sleeve when I ought to take the kinder, gentler approach. I find it hard to remove myself from that, though.

What to believe...?

The Truth.

The book I was talking about looks like this...



See if your library has it!! Or the ones Dave mentioned, those are great.

~Wendy

What's not truthful about what I said regarding Adam and Eve...?

[Indyjoe]

I appreciate the thoughtful way that you can give an "answer", which is what I was referring to in my post to you in the SouthBenders thread.

Thanks but I fear that I too often revert to my more emotional side and wear it on my sleeve when I ought to take the kinder, gentler approach. I find it hard to remove myself from that, though.

What to believe...?

The Truth.

The book I was talking about looks like this...



See if your library has it!! Or the ones Dave mentioned, those are great.

~Wendy

What's not truthful about what I said regarding Adam and Eve...?

I meant with regard to what to believe... the Truth = God's Word. I do believe that the story of Adam and Eve is literal, btw.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

I meant with regard to what to believe... the Truth = God's Word. I do believe that the story of Adam and Eve is literal, btw.

So if it is a literal story then why didn't Adam and Eve die when they ate of the tree...?