OT: The resurrection

[Rip Rokken]

Thanks for the reference.

No problem -- that is a great verse, and a good example of what we lack in our society these days. I don't begrudge anyone their beliefs, and certainly don't want to force anything down anyone's throat. What perplexes me these days, though, is the lack of willingness from so many people to even investigate things -- check them out -- just to see whether they might be true or not (like the Bereans).

Example -- I see a pretty wild story on several mainsteam news sites, and tell someone about it. They say, "Ahh... that's just an urban myth". I say, "No, I read it on abcnews.com, cbsnews.com, and watched a special about it on 20/20. It was all over the place." They reply, "I don't believe that really happened."

I mean... ??? At least check it out to see if it's true before dismissing it as false, right? Stephen Colbert coined a humorous term last year called "Truthiness", which I believe is defined as "truth that comes from the gut -- not from fact". It's just amazing to me that in our society, so many people just speak and believe whatever they want to believe, ignoring any evidence to the contrary, and not being willing to investigate any other lines of thought. I'm not talking about topics of religion here, but anything -- politics, science, history, whatever. It's a real problem in this country, and getting worse.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

So if it is a literal story then why didn't Adam and Eve die when they ate of the tree...?

They didn't physically die immediately, but introduced death into the world through their action. Like being bitten by a snake -- you don't immediately drop -- takes the poison time to spread and do it's work.

More importantly I think is to realize what life and death really are. Life comes from Christ, and death is nothing more than separation from God. Adam originally walked with God, and now was separated from God thru his actions. In the Christian faith, death is not a cessation of existence -- we all exist for eternity, but whether we do so in the presence of God or the absence of God determines whether we have eternal life or suffer real death.

So you're saying that God lied!

As I previously quoted:
Genesis 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

You're regurgitating the traditional interpretation of the story which immediately contradicts God!

This is much like when Fuandamentalists try to explain God creating everything in 6 days. The geological record contradicts this so the Fundamentalist has to reply, "But what exactly is a day in God's eyes - why, it could very well be 1 billion years."

Sorry - but I believe you're missing the point of the story entirely.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

To say that it has nothing to do with the mind is flat-out wrong. There's a scripture in the New Testement (can't remember where it is right off the top of my head) that talked about how a certain group of Christians "searched the scriptures daily" to verify that what they were taught was so. Obviously, the truths in scripture need to be internalized to be of any value but God did give us a mind for a reason.

Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

This doesn't at all contradict what I was saying neither does it support that "scripture" "should" be verified through some mental exercise. Why don't we also argue that "Hell" isn't a "bad" word because it's in the Bible!

So the Bereans took time to verify Paul by studying. Wow. Should we also sacrifice animals on the alter? How about enslaving people - should we also do that, too? The Bible speaks of those (and many other horrifying things) as being "proper".

Good grief.

Sorry - but the Bible isn't a mental exercise. It's to help move one along on their spiritual journey. If it's not doing that then it's being misused and abused.

[Saint John]

Genesis? Only thing good about Genesis is that they're touring.

[Rip Rokken]

They didn't physically die immediately, but introduced death into the world through their action. Like being bitten by a snake -- you don't immediately drop -- takes the poison time to spread and do it's work.

More importantly I think is to realize what life and death really are. Life comes from Christ, and death is nothing more than separation from God. Adam originally walked with God, and now was separated from God thru his actions. In the Christian faith, death is not a cessation of existence -- we all exist for eternity, but whether we do so in the presence of God or the absence of God determines whether we have eternal life or suffer real death.

So you're saying that God lied!

As I previously quoted:
Genesis 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

LOL -- I said no such thing, and what I did say was pretty clear. The verse does not read that they would drop dead immediately on the spot, such as if lightning were to strike them, which is how you seem to be interpreting it. It only said that they would die... That day they became "dead men walking", no longer able to physically walk with God in the garden, but having to relate to Him indirectly thru such things as the sacrifice of animals. Death in its ultimate sense is nothing more than the separation of man and God.

Friend, I could continue to debate you on these things, but all scriptural knowledge is given by God himself, which renders these kind of debates somewhat useless. You also have to be able to see what God accomplished as a whole throughout the entire Bible, so the point-by-point stuff is also useless to some degree. If you are really interested in seeing these things, you have to pray for God to reveal those things to you. Heck, I tell people that if they will just cry out to God to show Himself truly to them (or even prove His existence to them), He will honor that. Just simply, "God, if you really exist, I am asking that you show yourself to me and let me know that it is you." He will answer you, and this I know. May not be according to our time-frame, but it will happen.

[conversationpc]

Sorry - but the Bible isn't a mental exercise. It's to help move one along on their spiritual journey. If it's not doing that then it's being misused and abused.

That's a pretty dogmatic statement from someone who seems to believe it is all a matter of individual interpretation and experience. If that's the case, your above statement cannot possibly coexist comfortably with your philosophy.

This is much like when Fuandamentalists try to explain God creating everything in 6 days. The geological record contradicts this so the Fundamentalist has to reply, "But what exactly is a day in God's eyes - why, it could very well be 1 billion years."

Not all "Fuandementalists" believe in 6 literal days of creation. Besides that, when God created the world, there was no such thing as a literal 24-hour day yet anyway.

Regardless, all these other things are just side matters. The real questions are these...

Is Jesus who he claimed to be and, if so, did he prove it by literally, physically rising from the dead?

[conversationpc]

Genesis? Only thing good about Genesis is that they're touring.

"Selling England By the Pound" is their best album. Good stuff.

[Saint John]

Genesis? Only thing good about Genesis is that they're touring.

"Selling England By the Pound" is their best album. Good stuff.

Dave, you know I respect the shit out of you. Please don't take me seriously (like anyone does!!!). I've been drinking non-stop for 21 hours. Just trying to ruffle the forum...nothing more. You're a cool motherfucker. What you say makes sense...even though it's bullshit.

[Rip Rokken]

Regardless, all these other things are just side matters. The real questions are these...

Is Jesus who he claimed to be and, if so, did he prove it by literally, physically rising from the dead?

Right on... the absolute, most central point. You have to start from there and work your way out. Outside the resurrection of Christ, debates on creation, Noah's Ark, Jacob's Ladder, the flight from Egypt, Jericho, Sodom & Gomorrah, who the Nephilim really were (haha), etc.... are largely pointless.

But all the Garden of Eden talk did remind me of an old story:

When Sherlock Holmes passed away he found St. Peter waiting for him at the Pearly Gates. "We're glad you've finally come Mr. Holmes," Pete said. "We have a mystery for you to solve." "Tell me about it," says Sherlock. "With all the souls up here we've lost track of Adam and Eve, we need you to find them." "I'll do my most," says Sherlock.

A few weeks later Sherlock returns with a man and woman to St. Peter.

"Allow me to introduce Adam and Eve," Sherlock says to St. Peter. "I need to be sure, how are you certain this is Adam and Eve?" Pete asks. "Elementary my dear St. Peter," responds Sherlock Holmes. "They have no navels."

[Wheels Of Fyre]

They didn't physically die immediately, but introduced death into the world through their action. Like being bitten by a snake -- you don't immediately drop -- takes the poison time to spread and do it's work.

More importantly I think is to realize what life and death really are. Life comes from Christ, and death is nothing more than separation from God. Adam originally walked with God, and now was separated from God thru his actions. In the Christian faith, death is not a cessation of existence -- we all exist for eternity, but whether we do so in the presence of God or the absence of God determines whether we have eternal life or suffer real death.

So you're saying that God lied!

As I previously quoted:
Genesis 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

LOL -- I said no such thing, and what I did say was pretty clear. The verse does not read that they would drop dead immediately on the spot, such as if lightning were to strike them, which is how you seem to be interpreting it. It only said that they would die... That day they became "dead men walking", no longer able to physically walk with God in the garden, but having to relate to Him indirectly thru such things as the sacrifice of animals. Death in its ultimate sense is nothing more than the separation of man and God.

Friend, I could continue to debate you on these things, but all scriptural knowledge is given by God himself, which renders these kind of debates somewhat useless. You also have to be able to see what God accomplished as a whole throughout the entire Bible, so the point-by-point stuff is also useless to some degree. If you are really interested in seeing these things, you have to pray for God to reveal those things to you. Heck, I tell people that if they will just cry out to God to show Himself truly to them (or even prove His existence to them), He will honor that. Just simply, "God, if you really exist, I am asking that you show yourself to me and let me know that it is you." He will answer you, and this I know. May not be according to our time-frame, but it will happen.

Despite what God said about immediately dying you contradict that by saying that they didn't die immediately but rather, they introduced death through their actions. I'm sorry but that's calling God a liar and furthermore it's entirely nonsensical to me.

God said that they would die and they DID. I'm saying that they DID - they died of the spirit and were born into the flesh - in other words they lost their innocence and were born into a carnal existence. It's merely and simply a story about puberty.

I'm sorry if you find this offensive but I have to say that I find the idea of "original sin" and Adam and Eve being my ancestors as nothing but pure rubbish.

As for your suggestion to pray to God - well, that was a little creepy.

[conversationpc]

Genesis? Only thing good about Genesis is that they're touring.

"Selling England By the Pound" is their best album. Good stuff.

Dave, you know I respect the shit out of you. Please don't take me seriously (like anyone does!!!). I've been drinking non-stop for 21 hours. Just trying to ruffle the forum...nothing more. You're a cool motherfucker. What you say makes sense...even though it's bullshit.

[conversationpc]

As for your suggestion to pray to God - well, that was a little creepy.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

Sorry - but the Bible isn't a mental exercise. It's to help move one along on their spiritual journey. If it's not doing that then it's being misused and abused.

That's a pretty dogmatic statement from someone who seems to believe it is all a matter of individual interpretation and experience. If that's the case, your above statement cannot possibly coexist comfortably with your philosophy.

Why not?

This is much like when Fuandamentalists try to explain God creating everything in 6 days. The geological record contradicts this so the Fundamentalist has to reply, "But what exactly is a day in God's eyes - why, it could very well be 1 billion years."

Not all "Fuandementalists" believe in 6 literal days of creation. Besides that, when God created the world, there was no such thing as a literal 24-hour day yet anyway.

Please!

Gen 1:5
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

The Hebrew for "day" is "yowm" which means hot; a day (as in the warm hours) either from sunrise to sunset or from one sunrise to the next.

When Genesis was writtem there wasn't much in the way of Geologists. So this nifty little yarn was created in order to help explain how things came into being. A couple thousand years later Geologists (and Cosmologists) came along and proved otherwise. Uh, oh. So how can "6 day believers" respond? Uh - well...maybe when God created the world - there was no such thing as a literal 24-hour day.

Come on! Isn't it time to put the fairy tales and the apologetics aside and accept the fact that the Bible isn't what tradition says it is?

People once believed:
1. The Universe was created in 6 days.
2. The Earth is flat and the Universe revolves around it.
3. That Adam and Eve were the first humans.

People believed these things - and defended them with their lives because the Bible - this "evidence" said it was so!!!

Cosmologists and Geologists have disproved #1. Copernicus, Galileo, and Columbus blew away #2. Darwin flushed #3 down the toilet.

Despite all of these developments you continue to sell and perpetuate the "old" traditions. Well, I'm not buying!

Regardless, all these other things are just side matters. The real questions are these...

Is Jesus who he claimed to be and, if so, did he prove it by literally, physically rising from the dead?

Firstly, these questions ASSUME that Jesus existed. The REAL and more gutsy question is:
Did Jesus truly exist and was he who he claimed to be? If so, did he prove it by literally, physically, rising from the dead?

Considering the "evidence" I'm compelled to say, "NO" to all of the above.

Is that such a terrible thing? No. I live my life according to the sayings that have been attributed by Jesus. It wouldn't matter to me if they were attributed to the Cookie Monster! I like what Buddha said, "Don't believe anything - even what I say UNLESS it rings true to you." Ultimately, Jesus' existence makes no difference to me - his words ring true - I have the ears to hear...

[Wheels Of Fyre]

As for your suggestion to pray to God - well, that was a little creepy.

Sorry but if you're going to preach then do so - don't cop out and tell someone to go pray! If you REALLY believe in what you believe then you'll find a way to express it.

[Rhiannon]

The following is meant as a joke and to lighten the mood, please take it that way.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

The following is meant as a joke and to lighten the mood, please take it that way.

PERFECT!!!

[strangegrey]

{snip of dumbshit dribble}

I thought you were going to stop posting here...that you were ashamed to hang with racists...why don't you stick to your word...please?

[conversationpc]

Gen 1:5
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

The Hebrew for "day" is "yowm" which means hot; a day (as in the warm hours) either from sunrise to sunset or from one sunrise to the next.

When Genesis was writtem there wasn't much in the way of Geologists. So this nifty little yarn was created in order to help explain how things came into being. A couple thousand years later Geologists (and Cosmologists) came along and proved otherwise. Uh, oh. So how can "6 day believers" respond? Uh - well...maybe when God created the world - there was no such thing as a literal 24-hour day.

Fyre, I've seen actual Bible scholars who've studied the Hebrew scriptures and understand it far better than you that believe what is referred to in the first chapter of Genesis is not meant to be a literal 24-hour day. BTW, the word is "yom" is also an acceptable variant, just as an FYI.

People once believed:
1. The Universe was created in 6 days.
2. The Earth is flat and the Universe revolves around it.
3. That Adam and Eve were the first humans.

I don't care what people once believed.

Darwin flushed #3 down the toilet.

Evolutionary so-called science has undergone more changes than the traditions you keep slamming Christianity with. You seem to have quite a bit of faith in evolution despite its many flaws yet you continually flog Christians who "perpetuate the old traditions".

Firstly, these questions ASSUME that Jesus existed. The REAL and more gutsy question is:
Did Jesus truly exist and was he who he claimed to be? If so, did he prove it by literally, physically, rising from the dead?

Considering the "evidence" I'm compelled to say, "NO" to all of the above.

I'm sorry but no one really takes anyone seriously who claims that Jesus never existed. There is more historical evidence for his existence than there is for other historical figures that no one ever questions. For instance...

Did Hannibal really exist?

I want to wrap up by showing how easy it is to produce a scenario where we can deny the historicity of a major public figure. When I published this spoof on the Secular Web's discussion board it was taken seriously even though with hindsight it seems ridiculous. The comments in italics are annotations to bring out points of similarity with the various Jesus Myth ideas in currency.

I would invite any Jesus Mythologist to explain to me the substantial differences between their theory and the spurious one below.

To ask whether or not the great Carthaginian general Hannibal every actually existed might seem rather pointless. An exercise for a student learning about the nature of historical evidence perhaps but not something any serious scholar would waste time on. But maybe we should not be too hasty in acquiescing with the opinion of establishment historians (in other words, there's a plot by academics stifling debate).

In fact, although there is plenty of writing about Hannibal, none of it is contemporary and there is no archaeological evidence for him at all (not surprising given the Romans razed the city from whence he came). Furthermore he is not mentioned in any Carthaginian sources - incredible given he was supposed to be their greatest leader (there are no Carthaginian sources as the Romans burnt their city down)! We find when we actually try to pin him down he tends to recede further into the mists of time. His exploits, such as leading elephants over the Alps, are clearly legendary (the sceptic pretends to be incredulous but seems happy to buy his own amazing theory) and it is not hard to find a motive for the creation of this colourful character by Roman writers (as long we can invent a motive for fabrication we can assume that fabrication exists).

Rome and Carthage were great trading rivals in the Western Mediterranean and it did not take them long to come to blows. Rome signed a peace treaty but, under the leadership of the elder Cato desperately wanted to rid itself permanently of the competition. (this is actually true and so helps to hide when we slip into fantasy) They needed an excuse and the idea they came up with was brilliant. Like all ancient civilisations, the Romans rewrote history as it suited them to demonstrate their own prowess. (a useful and exaggerated generalisation) Consequently we should not be surprised to find that they invented a great enemy from Carthage to demonstrate the threat still existed and justify a further war to wipe them out.

The author of the fiction was Cato himself (we need someone to point the finger at and note how there is no distinction made between the background material above and theorising here) who we know wrote the earliest Roman History (true as well, actually). But it was intended simply as a justification for a further war with Carthage. It contained the details of Hannibal's alleged campaigns against the Romans including victories on Italian soil (it might well do but Cato's history has conveniently not survived). Cato brilliantly combined the truth with his own anti-Carthaginian propaganda with the intention of goading Rome into another wholly unjustified war with the old enemy (give the fabricator lots of credit for his invention). Once the war was over and Carthage razed to the ground, the Romans were able to ensure that only their version of history survived (this is important as it enables all other sources to be declared forgeries).

Therefore the myth of the great Carthaginian war leader became fact and later Roman historians like the notoriously unreliable Livy (we have to denigrate counter sources) simply assumed Cato's fabrications were true (because the ancients were stupid and simply could not do any research themselves).

http://www.bede.org.uk/jesusmyth.htm

[conversationpc]

As for your suggestion to pray to God - well, that was a little creepy.

Sorry but if you're going to preach then do so - don't cop out and tell someone to go pray! If you REALLY believe in what you believe then you'll find a way to express it.

Please direct your post towards the person who you claim was preaching to you. That wasn't me.

[ohsherrie]

I don't begrudge anyone whatever belief they need. I do resent people trying to impose their beliefs upon me, thinking that my life somehows needs their beliefs, and/or assuming that I've reached my conclusions on this subject out of ignorance.

Nothing could be further from the truth. I reached my conclusions after years of seeking, studying and soul searching.

I was very active in a church for many years. I was the choir director, chair of the Bible School committee, directed the Christmas pageants, made the costumes for many of the pageants, and was a Sunday School teacher. In other words, I gave it every chance, but there were just too many things that had no answers and blind faith just isn't something I can do. That came to a head for me during one of my Sunday School lessons. I taught the teenage class. One of the boys asked me (earnestly, not as a smartass) to explain to him why all religions thought their way was the only way to get to heaven but the Baptist way was the only one that was right. I couldn't answer that because I had the same doubts that this boy did. I told him that the most important thing was to believe in God, but that he'd have to ask the Pastor for any further explanation. That was my last day teaching Sunday School.

The Pastor (who was and still is a dear friend) spent an entire day at my house trying to sell me on letting blind faith fill in the gaps where he couldn't give me answers. I didn't work and he ended the day by telling me I was what he called an intellectual doubter. I had a hard time with the concept of Immaculate Conception, I wanted to know where Cain's wife came from. I wanted to know how it was possible for Noah to have two of every species of animal on earth and his family on a relatively small ship for 40 days and 40 nights, parting of the Red Sea, Lot's wife into pillar of salt, etc, I'm sure you get the picture.

Anyway, good on all of you who are happy in your religion. Just please, don't try to tell me that "my children are just going to rot in their graves" because I don't believe the same mythology that you do.

As to my post about virtous men and riches. That was paraphrasing on my part. My whole point was missed by most, but that's not surprise.

Here are a few of the actual passages. The first few are from Jesus(yes he was a real man, the question is, was he really the Son of God) the others are from the Old Testamant.



Matthew 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

Matthew 6:19 – 21
19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures on earth, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth not rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

21 For Where your treasure is, there will be your heart.

Matthew 10:9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses.

Matthew 19:23 - 24
23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

1 Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

James 2: 5 – 6
5 Hearken, my beloved the brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?



Deuteronomy 8:13 – 14
13 And when thy herds and thy flocks multiply, and thy silver and thy gold is multiplied, and all that thou hast is multiplied;

14 The thine heart be lifted up, and thou forget the Lord thy God, which brought thee forth out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

Proverbs 23: 4 – 5
4 Labour not to be rich: cease from thine own wisdom.

5 Wilt thou set thine eyes upon that which is not? For riches certainly make themselves wings; they fly away as an eagle towards heaven.

[Moon Beam]

Personally I think sometimes Blind Faith can be the best thing
to hold water in.
I know if I think about my faith and God to much I get overwelmed.
For me it's a good thing to just feel the love of his creations, miracles and know someday
all my questions will be answered.

[ohsherrie]

I know what you're saying Gerene and that's sort of where I am too. I accept that there is a God even though I can't see him because I feel and see the evidence of his presence all around me. It's the in-between people that I have problems with. I don't need any particular religious philosophy defining how I should worship or what I should feel and think about God.

I personally don't think God is all that crazy about all the interference either.




PS Dave: St Nicolas was absolutely a real person. His legend got blown all out of proportion too.

[Rip Rokken]

As for your suggestion to pray to God - well, that was a little creepy.

Sorry but if you're going to preach then do so - don't cop out and tell someone to go pray! If you REALLY believe in what you believe then you'll find a way to express it.

Hey, man, whatever... haha! What's creepy about talking to the creator of all things? Nothing to lose, anyway. You only stand to gain. But your call.

I'm not here to preach, and it's really not the forum for me to debate this topic. I can't even give you all the answers if I tried. Like Moon Beam said, sometimes blind faith is best.

John 20:29 Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."

1 Peter 1:8-9 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

[conversationpc]

PS Dave: St Nicolas was absolutely a real person. His legend got blown all out of proportion too.

Yes, I know St. Nicolas was a real person. That's what I was saying.

[Indyjoe]

Hi Sherrie,

I don't begrudge anyone their beliefs either, or wish to impose on anyone. This started as a discussion initially with Wheels of Fyre which he seems to be okay with and not meant to offend anyone. He brought up in another thread the lack of evidence for the resurrection and I just suggested a book I thought he might like to read. All in all I think it has been a good discussion, and I in no way meant to offend anyone. I love a good discussion, even though it is really hard to have one this way!

~Wendy

[conversationpc]

Anyway, good on all of you who are happy in your religion. Just please, don't try to tell me that "my children are just going to rot in their graves" because I don't believe the same mythology that you do.

Mythology?

As to my post about virtous men and riches. That was paraphrasing on my part. My whole point was missed by most, but that's not surprise.

The point was missed because you didn't explain it thoroughly but I see your point now.

[Perrydise]

Interesting topic. I have enjoyed reading it throughly.

As for me, my faith and relationship are very close and personal to me, which I believe they should be for all. I have seen things occur, where darkness has turned into light. I have seen people struggle with their death and I can seen people go peacefully. There is one thing I fully dislike, I find it to be a total blasphemy and that is when these so called "preachers" both on TV and in the pulpits on Sundays tell you the more money you send or drop in the bucket, that moves you to the front of the line when Heaven calls. All these people do is prey on the weak of heart, souls and those with very low self esteem. Faith lives in the heart and soul and not in some televangelists newly formed "Jesus Christ Inc."

Ohsherrie told of her experience...

"One of the boys asked me (earnestly, not as a smartass) to explain to him why all religions thought their way was the only way to get to heaven but the Baptist way was the only one that was right. " Each religion believes this way. I was with some friends and we were talking about religion and one person said that the only way was the Baptist way. Obviously all hell broke out. There was a 6 yr old little girl playing with her Barbie as the converstaion was going on, she solved the problem. She looked at us and said " Ya know, God is so big, he can fit into all the religions, so why are you fighting?"

Out of the mouths of babes.

[Rip Rokken]

I know what you're saying Gerene and that's sort of where I am too. I accept that there is a God even though I can't see him because I feel and see the evidence of his presence all around me. It's the in-between people that I have problems with. I don't need any particular religious philosophy defining how I should worship or what I should feel and think about God.

I personally don't think God is all that crazy about all the interference either.

Hey -- your experiences in church are pretty common these days, and not all that unexpected in light of what man has done to Christianity over time. There is a lot of falsity in many assemblies, for sure, and a study of church history will reveal just how much has been added over time that is nothing more than human tradition, and definitely non-scriptural. I was exactly where you were -- too many questions and tired of the shallow, rehearsed answers. I don't doubt for a minute that many of those folks were sincere (though many were not) -- they were just incapable of providing what I needed. Luckily I found answers that restored peace to me, and have allowed me to go on as a Christian. In a nutshell, just that God is perfect, has a plan, and is not hindered by the will of man. What is of man is of man, and what is of God is of God. He is busy doing exactly what He wants to do in spite of the fallacies of modern churches. That's where my faith today lies.

[conversationpc]

"One of the boys asked me (earnestly, not as a smartass) to explain to him why all religions thought their way was the only way to get to heaven but the Baptist way was the only one that was right. " Each religion believes this way. I was with some friends and we were talking about religion and one person said that the only way was the Baptist way. Obviously all hell broke out. There was a 6 yr old little girl playing with her Barbie as the converstaion was going on, she solved the problem. She looked at us and said " Ya know, God is so big, he can fit into all the religions, so why are you fighting?"

Out of the mouths of babes.

There's one major problem with what that girl said, though, innocent as it was. If Jesus really is who he claimed to be, the Son of God, Son of Man, sinless savior, and only way to the Father, then that doesn't really leave much room for other religions to be true.

[Indyjoe]

Interesting topic. I have enjoyed reading it throughly.

As for me, my faith and relationship are very close and personal to me, which I believe they should be for all. I have seen things occur, where darkness has turned into light. I have seen people struggle with their death and I can seen people go peacefully. There is one thing I fully dislike, I find it to be a total blasphemy and that is when these so called "preachers" both on TV and in the pulpits on Sundays tell you the more money you send or drop in the bucket, that moves you to the front of the line when Heaven calls. All these people do is prey on the weak of heart, souls and those with very low self esteem. Faith lives in the heart and soul and not in some televangelists newly formed "Jesus Christ Inc."

I agree regarding those TV evangelists and/or pastors that would do that and what you are saying. I wouldn't give them the time of day or any money.

And about the "fighting" if that is the way you see this thread(and maybe you don't), I don't see it that way at all! I like Wheels of Fyre and have enjoyed this discussion. My disagreement on these issues wouldn't change a thing about how I felt about someone.

~Wendy