OT: The resurrection

[conversationpc]

And about the "fighting" if that is the way you see this thread(and maybe you don't), I don't see it that way at all! I like Wheels of Fyre and have enjoyed this discussion. My disagreement on these issues wouldn't change a thing about how I felt about someone.

~Wendy

That's part of the problem nowadays. People are offended too easily. There's really nothing wrong with having a good discussion like this or even a heated discussion, for that matter. I don't take things personally unless they're intended to be taken that way.

[Indyjoe]

And about the "fighting" if that is the way you see this thread(and maybe you don't), I don't see it that way at all! I like Wheels of Fyre and have enjoyed this discussion. My disagreement on these issues wouldn't change a thing about how I felt about someone.

~Wendy

That's part of the problem nowadays. People are offended too easily. There's really nothing wrong with having a good discussion like this or even a heated discussion, for that matter. I don't take things personally unless they're intended to be taken that way.

I think that is a good plan! I am learning to do the same!

[Rip Rokken]

I agree regarding those TV evangelists and/or pastors that would do that and what you are saying. I wouldn't give them the time of day or any money.

And about the "fighting" if that is the way you see this thread(and maybe you don't), I don't see it that way at all! I like Wheels of Fyre and have enjoyed this discussion. My disagreement on these issues wouldn't change a thing about how I felt about someone.

~Wendy

Those televangelists and many other high-profile hypocrites have only helped reinforce ridiculous stereotypes about Christians in this world, and are no doubt a major factor in unbelievers with half a brain shying away from Christianity. Who would want to be a part of that, right? I have faith in a truth that survives in spite of it, and what those folks have done will be revealed for what it is one day.

I love everyone here also, and would never let anything between myself and another get heated (intentionally, anyway). Love all of ya, Wheelz O' Fyre and St. John included!

[Rip Rokken]

That's part of the problem nowadays. People are offended too easily. There's really nothing wrong with having a good discussion like this or even a heated discussion, for that matter. I don't take things personally unless they're intended to be taken that way.

Hey, I can think of a whole bunch of folks in this world that need to hear that. Some are even willing to sue for getting their feelings hurt. I go back to that old children's saying, "Stick and stones"... I'm pretty near impossible to offend, because to be so sensitive to teh words of others is only to give everyone else the "keys" to your state of being. Why give anyone that kinda power over ya? I probably get under peoples' skin more for not getting upset with them than I would if I did. Unfortunately, we that believe this way are a shrinking lot in this world.

[ohsherrie]

Hi Sherrie,

I don't begrudge anyone their beliefs either, or wish to impose on anyone. This started as a discussion initially with Wheels of Fyre which he seems to be okay with and not meant to offend anyone. He brought up in another thread the lack of evidence for the resurrection and I just suggested a book I thought he might like to read. All in all I think it has been a good discussion, and I in no way meant to offend anyone. I love a good discussion, even though it is really hard to have one this way!

~Wendy

Wendy you didn't offend me in any way and neither did anyone else. I'm just participating in the discussion but this topic, like politics, has been touched upon by some of us before and can get sort of heated. It's not really hostile though, it just sounds that way sometimes.

[ohsherrie]

There's one major problem with what that girl said, though, innocent as it was. If Jesus really is who he claimed to be, the Son of God, Son of Man, sinless savior, and only way to the Father, then that doesn't really leave much room for other religions to be true.

And there ya go. The problem is that the same thing could be said of all of the recognized religions. Either you swallow it hook, line, and sinker, or you're damned to hell(or the equivalent thereof).

[conversationpc]

There's one major problem with what that girl said, though, innocent as it was. If Jesus really is who he claimed to be, the Son of God, Son of Man, sinless savior, and only way to the Father, then that doesn't really leave much room for other religions to be true.

And there ya go. The problem is that the same thing could be said of all of the recognized religions. Either you swallow it hook, line, and sinker, or you're damned to hell(or the equivalent thereof).

So what about the Bible's claim that Jesus is the only way to God? Is that claim false then? If so, I can't see why much of any of it would be useful for anything.

Please don't take that personally. I just want to see where you're coming from. I do think it's possible to believe that Jesus is the only way to God and not act like a holier-than-thou, condemning everyone who doesn't believe. That's not my intention. I don't think that approach works.

[ohsherrie]

Those televangelists and many other high-profile hypocrites have only helped reinforce ridiculous stereotypes about Christians in this world, and are no doubt a major factor in unbelievers with half a brain shying away from Christianity.

As a matter of fact, it's the hypocrisy I've seen in the "real people" that call themselves Christians that has shown me that the televangelists are just taking advantage of the market that's available to them. Look at the lay hierarchy within any large urban church. Money rules.

The same rule doesn't always apply to rural churches. Most of the time they're ruled by family historical prominence rather than money. But the result is usually the same. The prominent family in the area can get away with anything as long as they keep filling the pews and don't vote the preacher out.

[conversationpc]

Look at the lay hierarchy within any large urban church. Money rules.

I don't know whether my church would be considered large (600-700 people and growing) but that isn't the case there and I know of other large urban churches where that also isn't the case.

[ohsherrie]

There's one major problem with what that girl said, though, innocent as it was. If Jesus really is who he claimed to be, the Son of God, Son of Man, sinless savior, and only way to the Father, then that doesn't really leave much room for other religions to be true.

And there ya go. The problem is that the same thing could be said of all of the recognized religions. Either you swallow it hook, line, and sinker, or you're damned to hell(or the equivalent thereof).

So what about the Bible's claim that Jesus is the only way to God? Is that claim false then? If so, I can't see why much of any of it would be useful for anything.

Please don't take that personally. I just want to see where you're coming from. I do think it's possible to believe that Jesus is the only way to God and not act like a holier-than-thou, condemning everyone who doesn't believe. That's not my intention. I don't think that approach works.

Dave, I don't take any of this personally and I've never seen you try to force your beliefs on anybody.

I think people should be allowed to believe whatever they need to believe without having somebody tell them they're going to suffer intolerable consequences if they don't fall in line with the accepted belief within their particular culture. Religious belief is, and should be respected as, a personal thing.

If you believe that Jesus is the only way to God and you meet the requirements of your belief then that's great for you.

However, if you were to think you were superior to someone who had a different belief, and therefore you had the right to force them into submission to your belief, then you would be wrong.


As for the "mythology", other than what is known through science or documented through history to have occured, the spiritual references in the Bible are by definition, mythology.

I'm glad your churches are what you need them to be. That's all that really matters isn't it?

[Rip Rokken]

I think people should be allowed to believe whatever they need to believe without having somebody tell them they're going to suffer intolerable consequences if they don't fall in line with the accepted belief within their particular culture. Religious belief is, and should be respected as, a personal thing.

If you believe that Jesus is the only way to God and you meet the requirements of your belief then that's great for you.

However, if you were to think you were superior to someone who had a different belief, and therefore you had the right to force them into submission to your belief, then you would be wrong.

Hey, there -

I totally understand where you are coming from, and much of what you describe is a legitimate problem. Paul said that there should be no divisions in the church, so when the church divides over various points of secondary and tertiary doctrine, how can we expect this not to be a problem? And yet it's accepted today because it's so firmly rooted in our society. Yes, money rules in many places, and family tradition rules in others. There are true Christians in most of these places, but that doesn't mean that their assembly meets according to the way God ordained, and so, there will be a loss of blessing there -- not fully God's will. But I can promise you this -- God does have His expression in the church in this world, and I've seen it. There are those who have cast off all that fluff and tradition and just sought God out in the way He wanted to be sought out. And it will continue to increase. That gives me hope.

To your other points, you are also correct to be bothered by people who in their immature spirituality choose to be arrogant or forceful in their faith. Who can blame you? It's amazing how this goes on so much when the Bible clearly paints a different template of a believer who is worshiping God in spirit and in truth -- meek, humble, and attractive to others -- not the type of person who leaves a bad taste in anyone's mouth, ya know?

I'm just venturing to guess from what I've read, and maybe I'm completely wrong, that you have been mainly turned off by the hypocrisy you've seen in the Christians and churches you've been in, which resulted in the intellectual questioning. I would guess the former led to the latter. Please correct me if I'm off base.

[Rip Rokken]

There's one major problem with what that girl said, though, innocent as it was. If Jesus really is who he claimed to be, the Son of God, Son of Man, sinless savior, and only way to the Father, then that doesn't really leave much room for other religions to be true.

And there ya go. The problem is that the same thing could be said of all of the recognized religions. Either you swallow it hook, line, and sinker, or you're damned to hell(or the equivalent thereof).

The biggest difference, and this may be discussed in the Josh McDowell books, is that Christianity makes a claim that none of the others can -- the resurrection of Christ. If it happened, that paints a real problem for all those religions whose founders are still in their graves.

I may have heard that some claim Mohammad resurrected, but am not sure about this, nor have I heard of evidence to support it.

As for the resurrection, I remember a Time Magazine article several years ago -- you know, they seem to do one each year around Easter or Christmas claiming to have "new schools of thought" on Christianity, I guess to try to throw a few rocks at it. Anyway, the article covered the issue of the resurrection, and near the end, they said that resurrection or not, one thing was certain -- something happened which caused the apostles to basically do a 180 and preach and defend that faith at the expense of most of their own lives. I believe all but a few were martyred in pretty horrible ways. Not exactly the guys we met in the Gospels. McDowell makes the same argument, saying, "Who would die for a lie?"

[donnaplease]

I haven't read all of this thread, but in what I have read there are a few verses that come to mind:

We Walk By Faith, Not By Sight. 2 Corinthians 5:7

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. Ephesians 2:8

The key word here is FAITH. We can all look to prove or disprove the bible as a literal or figurative piece of work, but in the end we all have to answer one question: do I have faith? do I believe? Because of my faith, I DO believe.

[Rip Rokken]

donnathankyou

[donnaplease]

donnathankyou

[ohsherrie]

As I said in my first post, Faith is a blessing.

No one in this country has the right to question or condemn another person for their personal faith, or lack of it, unless that person gives them that right by trying to impose their beliefs on others or condemning those who don't believe in the same way.

My problem isn't with anybody's personal faith as long as they keep it on a personal basis. My problem is with organized religion(not just the evangelicals, but ALL organized religions) exploiting faith. They manipulate the faith of the people within their chosen religion to gain financial resources that they then convert into social status and political power. They use that status and power to further expand their religious empire and ultimately to dictate doctrine and lobby to legislate their beliefs into policy to be enforced on everyone whether they believe that doctrine or not.




RipRokken - No it wasn't the hypocrisy that caused my questions and doubts. I remember having questions that weren't being answered when I was a young child in Sunday School before I knew the meaning of the word hypocrisy. Most of those questions still haven't been answered to my satisfaction. The hypocrisy only bothers me when hypocrites try to convert me to their belief. I'd rather be an honest heathen than a lying hypocrite.


Dave - Yes the Bible says that the only way to God is through Christ, and if one believes the Bible is the true word of God, then it follows that one would have to believe that Christ is his son and conduit. Therein lies the enigma. God didn't write the Bible, men did, and it was translated and transcribed and edited and abridged through so many languages and doctrinal revisions and cultural climates that I have a problem with it's literal interpretation. But because the Bible is said to be the true word of God, that He is the Word and of the Word, if one believes in God then one must also believe the Bible and therefore must also believe it to be the word of God. And around and around we go.

There is no ultimate answer except within in our own hearts, minds and souls. To each his or her own peace within all three.

[Rip Rokken]

My problem is with organized religion(not just the evangelicals, but ALL organized religions) exploiting faith. They manipulate the faith of the people within their chosen religion to gain financial resources that they then convert into social status and political power. They use that status and power to further expand their religious empire and ultimately to dictate doctrine and lobby to legislate their beliefs into policy to be enforced on everyone whether they believe that doctrine or not.

I couldn't agree more. From my perspective, though, religion has always opposed Christ, and always will -- even religions supposedly based around Christ. I do believe there is a truth that supersedes that, though, and that is not shaken by that.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

I don't care what people once believed.

This is the problem.

Do you NOT recognize that what YOU believe TODAY is part of a collective consciousness that will surely be considered ignorant/quaint within a generation or two...?

THAT was my point.

I love the story Joseph Campbell tells about the little school boy that came into a lunch counter where he frequented. The little boy came in and sat with his mother. He said that he had written a paper about the evolution of man but that the teacher corrected him that Adam and Eve were the first humans and that we are all descendents of them. He said to her, "Yes, I know - but this is a scientific paper." A woman sitting next to the boy overheard him and said, "You're teacher was right - evolution is just a theory." The little boy was up to that, too and said, "Well, yes but it's been factualized - they found the bones."

So let's talk about Santa Claus. Yes - he's based upon Saint Nicholas. No querstion. However, Saint Nicholas was morphed into some fat, jolly, MAGICAL man who whips around the world on a sleight with flying reindeer landing on rooftops and slipping down chimneys with a wink and a nod. The REAL Saint Nicholas merely left baskets of food at the doors of needy people!

So if you want to say that Santa Claus is based upon a real person but that things just got blown out of proportion then the question about Jesus MUST also be asked:
If Jesus truly did exist - did his life get blown out of proportion like Saint Nicholas'?

I suppose the answer would be "No" because what was recorded about Jesus was done so nearly about the time that he lived although there was sufficient time for things to get stretched. But maybe the answer is "Yes".

When I was a kid there were times when we couldn't afford soda so my mother would prepare Kool-Aid and pour it out and say, "Here's some strawberry soda - just make believe that there are bubbles." In a "magical" kind of way she turned Kool-Aid into red pop! So let's look at Jesus' "miracle" of turning water into wine. My dad was an alcoholic so I never understood how turning something pure as water into wine was seen as a miracle! When I read that story I think back to my mother and Kool-Aid. The tradition in Jesus' day was to drink wine at weddings - so much so that it was a real social/traditional slight not to. Well, in this story there was no wine to be had so Jesus poured water and out flowed wine. Or did it? Well, my mother poured Kool-Aid out as strawberry soda so maybe Jesus simply defied tradition and poured out water with the attitude of "Hey - too bad. This water will have to do - just make believe." Magically turning water into wine makes no sense to me. Who was Jesus - the first Houdini? No. He simply made do with what was available despite all of the social and traditional demands. In fact, he was a rebel and defied many traditions. So is the story about Jesus' "magical God-like" powers or is it about making do with what you have despite what the immediate demands are?

I don't believe Jesus truly turned water into wine any more than Saint Nicholas flew down chimneys with a wink and a nod.

Darwin flushed #3 down the toilet.

[quote="conversationpc]Evolutionary so-called science has undergone more changes than the traditions you keep slamming Christianity with. You seem to have quite a bit of faith in evolution despite its many flaws yet you continually flog Christians who "perpetuate the old traditions".[/quote]

Of course, it has! Considering, it's still something of a new discovery. We're learning new things all the time. Recently it was discovered that red-haired people are very likely to have Neanderthal ancestory. I posted this here not too long ago. It's fascinating stuff - and we've found the bones!

I love the riddle of Adam and Eve:
An archeologist was digging in the Arctic ice and came upon the bodies of a man and a woman. Both bodies were completely naked and perfectly preserved. No other objects were around them. Despite all lack of evidence the archeologist took one look and proclaimed, "I've discovered Adam and Eve!" How did he know?
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Neither body had a belly button.

[Marc S]

Saint John

"Religion" is complete bullshit. Whether it's a Muslim praying to Allah on his flying carpet or a Catholic praying in a church run by a pedophile, I can't think of a bigger waste of time. I went to a Catholic grammar school, high school and college. What a collossal waste of time spent in church. I would've been a much more productive human had I been tutoring a student that needed it, helping out at a homeless shelter or helping raise money for the handicapped. "Religions" have agendas...whether it be the collection box, a "holy war" or butt-fucking little boys. I have very little respect for people that need to gather together to feel good about themselves. Go out and be proactive. And any God that needs to be "worshipped" or prayed to is a narcississtic jack-off. Wake up and quit wasting your fucking time. People need actual help much more than God needs "prayers."

Saint John - we might bang heads, I've only just realised this thread has occurred as we have been out all day.

You are ABSOLUTELY FUCKING SPOT ON. The God Squad on this site need to seriously get a life. Do something decent with your energies and do some bonafide good in this world. I agree, organised religion is all bullshit.

Lift the blinkers - there is a real world out there.

[Indyjoe]

The God Squad on this site need to seriously get a life. Do something decent with your energies and do some bonafide good in this world. I agree, organised religion is all bullshit.
Lift the blinkers - there is a real world out there.

This thread is no indication whatsoever of what kind of decent work the "God Squad" in here is doing in this world anymore than your ongoing debate on Global Warming indicates to me what kind of decent work you are doing out in the world.

I assume your "get a life" is in reference to "religion" rather than to posting here, because you are here too. I have quite the happy life thanks!

The thread started, again to put it in perspective, as to whether there is evidence for the resurrection. It started based on a book recommendation.

"Do something decent with your energies?" What energies? Do you mean rather than posting? Rather than attending church? Just wondering?

~Wendy

[Marc S]

Indyjoe

This thread is no indication whatsoever of what kind of decent work the "God Squad" in here is doing in this world anymore than your ongoing debate on Global Warming indicates to me what kind of decent work you are doing out in the world.

I assume your "get a life" is in reference to "religion" rather than to posting here, because you are here too. I have quite the happy life thanks!

Its exactly that - read SJs post again. The very fact you want prove that the resurrection occurred, when, as even Fyre concurs, there is no evidence to support it. RaiderFan in his hermetically-sealed life-bubble talks of 'multiple eyewitnesses' - does he realise how Monty Python thats sounds? Infact that film is one of the most awesome piss-takes of organised religion ever made. Solid gold.

The thread started, again to put it in perspective, as to whether there is evidence for the resurrection. It started based on a book recommendation.

People were recommending 'Mein Campf' in the 30's and Mao was pushing his little book for years - doesn't mean you have to believe them does it, however deluded they are?

"Do something decent with your energies?" What energies? Do you mean rather than posting? Rather than attending church? Just wondering?

Exactly that. Rather than attend church and worship a non-existent 'god', get out there and involve yourself in something, anything thats real and based in fact....? How do all of these lunatic evangelical god channels on the TV raise so much dollar from such vulnerable and gullible people, its an offence to common morality, it really is.

[conversationpc]

The God Squad on this site need to seriously get a life.

This thread was going along quite nicely without any bomb throwers such as yourself. If you're looking for a thread to be a jerk in, please do so elsewhere.

[Marc S]

conversationpc

This thread was going along quite nicely without any bomb throwers such as yourself. If you're looking for a thread to be a jerk in, please do so elsewhere.

Just my humble opinion - like it or lump it. Censorship part of your agenda too? How many discussions/arguments 'go along quite nicely'? You're fooling no-one with your Stepfordesque mumblings.

[conversationpc]

Just my humble opinion - like it or lump it. Censorship part of your agenda too? How many discussions/arguments 'go along quite nicely'? You're fooling no-one with your Stepfordesque mumblings.

I never said you couldn't. I merely asked if you could. Apparently, you can't help yourself.

I love how liberals cry censorship when someone merely asks them to tone it down for the sake of having a friendly discussion. You can continue being a jerk if you want because I'm not the one it reflects badly on. Have a nice day

[Marc S]

conversationpc

I never said you couldn't. I merely asked if you could. Apparently, you can't help yourself.

I love how liberals cry censorship when someone merely asks them to tone it down for the sake of having a friendly discussion. You can continue being a jerk if you want because I'm not the one it reflects badly on. Have a nice day

Equally funny how, when confronted with an opinion that really flies in your face and gets your goat, its 'being a jerk'. How purile and juvenile is that?

I've had a FANTASTIC day thanks.

[Rip Rokken]

I haven't seen anyone in here defending organized religion. Sounds like we are all on the same page that it is a sham, so no need to debate it. Organized religion is something of man, not of God. Doesn't change the truth of Christ and the resurrection, though, and if it's true, then I have to make a choice, so I choose Christ.

Now the church, as described in the Bible, is something of God, and is not an organization, but an organism.

[conversationpc]

This is the problem.

Do you NOT recognize that what YOU believe TODAY is part of a collective consciousness that will surely be considered ignorant/quaint within a generation or two...?

Collective consciousness? Surely tradition has an effect on what EVERYONE believes. I'm not arguing that. As I grow older, though, I find myself disagreeing with some of the things I learned when I was younger because I found through my own study that they do not square with scripture.

[Marc S]

RipRokken

I haven't seen anyone in here defending organized religion. Sounds like we are all on the same page that it is a sham, so no need to debate it. Organized religion is something of man, not of God. Doesn't change the truth of Christ and the resurrection, though, and if it's true, then I have to make a choice, so I choose Christ.

Now the church, as described in the Bible, is something of God, and is not an organization, but an organism.

Have you seen The Life of Brian? Didn't you find it just hit it all bang on the head....?

[conversationpc]

Equally funny how, when confronted with an opinion that really flies in your face and gets your goat, its 'being a jerk'. How purile and juvenile is that?

So your "God Squad" terminology and remark about "getting a life" were meant to be just terms of endearment?

[Rip Rokken]

Have you seen The Life of Brian?

Yes, actually, only once. I was a huge fan of "Monty Python and the Holy Grail", having seen it about 14 times in a single year. I saw Life of Brian and it pushed the envelope too far with me... never watched it again.