Raiderfan meets Chelsea Clinton

[RedWingFan]

Well, the unthinkable has happened.

With his expert, well-informed beat-down of the UK whiner, this guy calling himself RaiderFan has earned my utmost respect.

And this comes from a life-long Charger fan, BTW.

Bravo, my friend.

;^)

Thanks John. In years past I would say that the Chargers suck, but with my teams current state, I'm thinking of saving it for next year. Or the year after!

[ohsherrie]

Bush's ace-in-the-hole: When all else fails play the protect us from another 9/11 card (even though Iraq had nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11 and Hussein never allowed terrorists in Iraq because they were a threat to his total control)

Bush supporters' ace-in-the-hole: When all else fails play the our Soldiers who are laying their lives on the line for our freedom card (even though it was Bush who put their lives on the line for reasons that had nothing to do with our freedom)

There is no truth or logic to saying people who don't support Bush or the war don't support our troops. In fact that's one of the stupider things that the pro-war people say. We don't want our soldiers to die over there or anywhere else. Using the term Anti-War as if it was some sort of character flaw is even more absurd. Why the hell would it be a positive attribute to be Pro-War?

What's even more incongruous to me is that it's several of the most vocally religious posters here that are all for the war (and gun toting rights in general for that matter). Where does the peace on earth good will to men part of your doctrine fit in? I guess that really means peace on earth on your terms and good will to those who meet or are willing to capitulate to your terms.

[RedWingFan]

Using the term Anti-War as if it was some sort of character flaw is even more absurd.

You are right. That's why I prefer the term appeaser!

Why the hell would it be a positive attribute to be Pro-War?

Here's but one example. Appeaser Jimmy Carter is in office. The US embassy in Iran is invaded and the hostages are held UNTIL WHEN???? Yup. The day Ronald Reagan is inaugurated. Hostages released!!!! There's your positive attribute, appeaser!

I guess that really means peace on earth on your terms and good will to those who meet or are willing to capitulate to your terms.

It's not Christians that demand that you "capitulate" or be enslaved and/or killed if you don't you dolt!!!

[conversationpc]

On the Today show, in an interview with that woman who reads the new(I can't think of her name) O'Neal said, point blank, that Bush came into the White House telling his people to "get him a reason to go to war with Iraq". Those were his exact words that I HEARD him say.

I don't know for sure what you heard but he has clarified what he MEANT.

On the View, just a few days ago, Greenspan said these exact words, "the war in Iraq is about oil." (I also read in article and interview about his book that he was very disappointed in Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld.)

See above. Greenspan has also clarified any remarks he made.

Richard Clarke on GMA has said Bush was ignoring the signs that would have pointed to 9/11 because he was focused on putting together a case for going to war with Iraq.

That may be so. A case can also be made against the Clinton administration for the same kind of thing.

Colin Powell has said he was lied to. Powell's wife has spoken about how devastated he was over what he was manipulated into saying to the UN. If Powell was lied to it stands to reason that congress and this nation were also lied to.

Lied to or misled by the same faulty intelligence that the Bush adminstration believed and almost every other country on earth believed?

I don't see how anyone can be so unwilling to admit they were wrong (or so happy with the earnings on their investments or the new sound system they bought with their tax cut ) that they can keep denying what's gone on in the most corrupt administration in this country's history.

Sherry, truthfully, give me a freaking break. You BDS people are so blinded by your hatred for Bush that you wouldn't admit the truth even if was right in front of your face. I suppose Bush probably has death threats out against Greenspan and others who have either clarified their remarks or admitted they were wrong?

I will admit that the Bush administration has sucked big time at war management. They are buffoons who couldn't manage a lemonade stand in 100 degree weather. However, that's totally different than accusing them of outright lying, planning the war ahead of time, etc.

Face the facts...Corruption goes on in both parties and, yes, even in the Bush administration. I do think something underhanded is going on in regards to the immigration and border problem and I believe Bush could very well be behind it. We've got border guards being arrested and thrown in jail for little or no reason. I think we can agree on that issue at least.

[RossValoryRocks]

Bush's ace-in-the-hole: When all else fails play the protect us from another 9/11 card (even though Iraq had nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11 and Hussein never allowed terrorists in Iraq because they were a threat to his total control)

Bush supporters' ace-in-the-hole: When all else fails play the our Soldiers who are laying their lives on the line for our freedom card (even though it was Bush who put their lives on the line for reasons that had nothing to do with our freedom)

There is no truth or logic to saying people who don't support Bush or the war don't support our troops. In fact that's one of the stupider things that the pro-war people say. We don't want our soldiers to die over there or anywhere else. Using the term Anti-War as if it was some sort of character flaw is even more absurd. Why the hell would it be a positive attribute to be Pro-War?

What's even more incongruous to me is that it's several of the most vocally religious posters here that are all for the war (and gun toting rights in general for that matter). Where does the peace on earth good will to men part of your doctrine fit in? I guess that really means peace on earth on your terms and good will to those who meet or are willing to capitulate to your terms.

When you diagree with the war and do it so the enemy can hear you then you aid and abett the enemy. If they think us weak they attack, it is ingrained in their cultural ethos. Every time Cindy Sheehan gets on TV or Radio and spouts off they think we are weak, every time Harry Reid gets up and says we are going to pull out the enemy think we are weak.

Every time you, or anyone else, goes on and on about the war sucks and we need to pull out you are committing treason in my book.

In 1862 during the first years of the Civil War, President Lincoln using his powers as Commander-In-Chief and Chief Excutive had CONGRESSMEN and SENATORS arrested for treason for saying far less than the anti-war groups and Democratic leadership is saying today. He was sued in the Supreme Court and he won. I wish Bush had a pair of balls big enough to do that today.

[Panther]

How are the Iraqi people free?

Oh I don't know. Free to elect a leader of their choice to determine their future as a nation?

Free to have a country that is in a continual state of civil war with no end in sight.

There is no civil war. The factions are coming together to fight terrorism themselves.

Don't normally jump in on these topics, though I do read them with mild interest and funny bone. This exchange though, is just odd.
Yes, at this time, the factions in both Iraq and Afghan are coming together to fight the labeled terrorism (by the remainder of the world). However, once the labeled terrorism (if ever) is run to ground, these factions will then (most likely with little to no break) turn against one another to fight for control of the country/region. Meanwhile, while showing good face to the world and facing down the labeled terrorism, these same factions are working and moving behind the scenes to set up their own move at power. Don't think for one second that the labeled terrorist (those followers of Bin Laden and Sadaam) are solely responsible for all the IEDs, use of civilians as threats, etc. While we in the free world may know a life of freedom to basically do whatever the hell we want on a daily basis, the residents of these countries have only lived lives full of having to ask one group or another, appease one group or another and basically live their lives in fear of making the deadly decision of pissing one of these groups off. That's all they've known, ever. This reality isn't about to change because some other countries came in and ousted the leading group. No matter how we pretty it up and promise them a civil and freedom bearing society, it just simply isn't going to happen.

Okay, back to reading and ignoring the blabber about what is and isn't possible with this particular war and hoping that mini's dad comes back from this fifth deployment intact and with some semblance of sanity. ::::shrug:::

[Rip Rokken]

...or so happy with the earnings on their investments or the new sound system they bought with their tax cut )

LOL! You make it sound like the government will make better use of our money than we will... My tax cut money gets put into an IRA each month, so yes, it's invested, and I'm happy for the returns to help w/retirement. Regardless, even if we did purchase junk with it, it's good for the economy.

[conversationpc]

There are people who claim whatever administration is currently in power is the "most corrupt in history". It was said during the Reagan administration, Bush Sr., and Clinton administrations and it was probably said in many administrations before those I just mentioned.

As an example of this mindset, here's a good video from Youtube on the subject...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkUI_EKRYpU

[RedWingFan]

...or so happy with the earnings on their investments or the new sound system they bought with their tax cut )

LOL! You make it sound like the government will make better use of our money than we will... My tax cut money gets put into an IRA each month, so yes, it's invested, and I'm happy for the returns to help w/retirement. Regardless, even if we did purchase junk with it, it's good for the economy.

Pathetic how some act like we should be shamed for wanting less money taken from us.

[conversationpc]

Pathetic how some act like we should be shamed for wanting less money taken from us.

The only fair way to do it, in my opinion, is to go to a consumption tax like the Fair Tax. That's the way this country started out and I believe it would result in the largest shift of power from the government to the people that we've ever had. It would certainly take care of a lot or most of the problems we have with lobbyists.

[Marc S]

Panther

While we in the free world may know a life of freedom to basically do whatever the hell we want on a daily basis, the residents of these countries have only lived lives full of having to ask one group or another, appease one group or another and basically live their lives in fear of making the deadly decision of pissing one of these groups off. That's all they've known, ever. This reality isn't about to change because some other countries came in and ousted the leading group. No matter how we pretty it up and promise them a civil and freedom bearing society, it just simply isn't going to happen.

I agree with this. This is effectively what I mean about a continual state of civil war. You can't impose our way of life on a totally alien society. It IS all they have ever known. It is naive in the EXTREME to think that there is no civil war and the various factions are coming together to defeat the insurgents. Its bullshit and dreamland. Its what the current US administration would like us to believe. Hell, I would love to think that Iraq is now some cute little democratic state that abide by the law, do everything by the ballot box and don't kill each other when they don't agree. But the reality on the ground is 180 degrees out.

[Marc S]

ohsherrie
What's even more incongruous to me is that it's several of the most vocally religious posters here that are all for the war (and gun toting rights in general for that matter). Where does the peace on earth good will to men part of your doctrine fit in? I guess that really means peace on earth on your terms and good will to those who meet or are willing to capitulate to your terms.

Bingo. Exactly what I don't get also.....though I feel I'm about to be 'enlightened'

[conversationpc]

What's even more incongruous to me is that it's several of the most vocally religious posters here that are all for the war (and gun toting rights in general for that matter). Where does the peace on earth good will to men part of your doctrine fit in? I guess that really means peace on earth on your terms and good will to those who meet or are willing to capitulate to your terms.

1 - No one here is pro-war. I don't have a problem with anyone who says we shouldn't have gone to war with Iraq in the first place. What I do have a problem with are those who think we ought to just pull all the troops out immediately. Bad idea, in my opinion.

2 - The Constitution guarantees the right to keep and bear arms. I don't see why you have a problem with a "religious" person who thinks that right is important. Owning a firearm or believing in the right to have one doesn't make any "religious" person a hypocrite. To use it in an offensive fashion would definitely be wrong but there's absolutely nothing wrong with having one for self-defense purposes only.

[conversationpc]

While we in the free world may know a life of freedom to basically do whatever the hell we want on a daily basis, the residents of these countries have only lived lives full of having to ask one group or another, appease one group or another and basically live their lives in fear of making the deadly decision of pissing one of these groups off. That's all they've known, ever. This reality isn't about to change because some other countries came in and ousted the leading group. No matter how we pretty it up and promise them a civil and freedom bearing society, it just simply isn't going to happen.

I agree with this. This is effectively what I mean about a continual state of civil war. You can't impose our way of life on a totally alien society. It IS all they have ever known. It is naive in the EXTREME to think that there is no civil war and the various factions are coming together to defeat the insurgents. Its bullshit and dreamland. Its what the current US administration would like us to believe. Hell, I would love to think that Iraq is now some cute little democratic state that abide by the law, do everything by the ballot box and don't kill each other when they don't agree. But the reality on the ground is 180 degrees out.

Fundamentalist Muslims don't believe in freedom, either, and don't want it. They want Sharia law, which basically means a hardline Islamic government. It's certainly an uphill battle.

[ohsherrie]

Sherry, truthfully, give me a freaking break. You BDS people are so blinded by your hatred for Bush that you wouldn't admit the truth even if was right in front of your face. I suppose Bush probably has death threats out against Greenspan and others who have either clarified their remarks or admitted they were wrong?

I will admit that the Bush administration has sucked big time at war management. They are buffoons who couldn't manage a lemonade stand in 100 degree weather. However, that's totally different than accusing them of outright lying, planning the war ahead of time, etc.

Face the facts...Corruption goes on in both parties and, yes, even in the Bush administration. I do think something underhanded is going on in regards to the immigration and border problem and I believe Bush could very well be behind it. We've got border guards being arrested and thrown in jail for little or no reason. I think we can agree on that issue at least.

Dave, it doesn't surprise me that you choose to overlook the obvious truths behind what all of these men said. If there wasn't anything there none of them would have pointed to it. You must be so blinded by your faith in Bush that you can't see it.

I don't know what at BDS is but it wasn't blindness that made me hate Bush. It was seeing what he really is.

Bush absolutely did plan the war in Iraq. I have no reason to think he actually had anything to do with 9/11 or the resulting action in Afghanistan, but I do think he used it as the opportunity he'd been looking for to justify a war with Iraq.

As for the faulty intelligence, did you listen to George Tenet on 60 Minutes? I guess it doesn't matter if you did or not though because you'd find some way to discount it. It's amazing that so many who are in positions to know could all say the same things isn't it? Maybe it's a conspiracy.

Are you really naive enough to think that the ones who you say have "clarified" what they meant couldn't have been coerced into doing so?

[Rip Rokken]

What's even more incongruous to me is that it's several of the most vocally religious posters here that are all for the war (and gun toting rights in general for that matter). Where does the peace on earth good will to men part of your doctrine fit in? I guess that really means peace on earth on your terms and good will to those who meet or are willing to capitulate to your terms.

I'm not pro-war at all, though I believe it's necessary to achieve peace sometimes. Diplomacy alone rarely if ever works -- it works mainly when there is a solid threat of war behind it. (Remember how Gaddafi decided he wanted no part of WMD manufacturing after he saw what happened in Iraq?) I'm absolutely for defending one's country when it is threatened.

But what I've stating are just ideals -- the problem in our modern world is that politicians have sold us short on so many major issues by looking out for themselves first at the expense of what's right, that none of these things are easily solvable anymore, if at all. Doesn't matter what the issue is -- Middle East peace, terrorism, border security, taxes, race relations, whatever. Just about every major issue in America is like a mold infestation in your home that's been allowed to grow unchecked to the point you practically need to demolish the home or move somewhere else to deal with it. The fault is two-fold -- #1, the politicians who have engineered every situation into a wedge issue they can exploit for the sake of their personal power, and #2, a society that has allowed itself to become desensitized and numbed to the point of accepting this as the norm and not acting. The entire system is shot, but America doesn't have enough spine or will to straighten it out anymore.

If I focused on these problems, I would be depressed and hopeless all the time. Sure, we have period of ebb and flow with regards to hope in our society, such as how there was a turn toward "spirituality", kindness and thoughtfulness after 9/11 -- people caring about each other again. But these things are always somewhat short-lived, and the general trend will remain downward until the end. And then the Lord returns and sets everything right -- that's where my hope is. Give me a front row ticket to that show, please! That's why even as a Christian, I'm barely interested in politics anymore at all. Politicians are all self-seeking or out of touch, and even most of those that start out with the best of intentions get sucked into the system along the way.

[conversationpc]

Dave, it doesn't surprise me that you choose to overlook the obvious truths behind what all of these men said. If there wasn't anything there none of them would have pointed to it...

I don't know what at BDS is but it wasn't blindness that made me hate Bush. It was seeing what he really is.

BDS=Bush Derangement Syndrome, a sickness where people like you blame everything on Bush and won't believe anything anyone says about him even if it's 100% verifiable.

You must be so blinded by your faith in Bush that you can't see it.

Ummm...How long have you been a member here? Do you even bother reading what I post here? Have you not seen the many times that I've slammed Bush for his positions on immigration, spending, management of the war in Iraq, etc., etc.?

As for the faulty intelligence, did you listen to George Tenet on 60 Minutes? I guess it doesn't matter if you did or not though because you'd find some way to discount it. It's amazing that so many who are in positions to know could all say the same things isn't it? Maybe it's a conspiracy.

Are you really naive enough to think that the ones who you say have "clarified" what they meant couldn't have been coerced into doing so?

BDS again...Please seek help. As much as I can't stand Clinton, Carter, etc., I'm not dumb enough to believe that everything they do or say is bad or had some kind of unpure motive.

[ohsherrie]

BDS=Bush Derangement Syndrome, a sickness where people like you blame everything on Bush and won't believe anything anyone says about him even if it's 100% verifiable.

No, you've got that just backwards. It's the people who still find anything about him to support that are either deranged, delusional, or ignorant(or totally unconcerned) of the circumstances that exist outside their own comfort zone.

Ummm...How long have you been a member here? Do you even bother reading what I post here? Have you not seen the many times that I've slammed Bush for his positions on immigration, spending, management of the war in Iraq, etc., etc.?

I know you don't support everything Bush does, but you're wrong about the things you do support. You just don't realize it because neither you nor anyone you care about has been effected by his economic policy disaster. You really have no idea, but I can't blame you for that. I guess this is an example of ignorance being bliss for you. For some others its simply a case of not giving a damn about anyone but themselves.

BDS again...Please seek help. As much as I can't stand Clinton, Carter, etc., I'm not dumb enough to believe that everything they do or say is bad or had some kind of unpure motive.

Not that I expect this to matter, but I resent having my complaints lumped into a catagory and labeled as a "syndrome". I could just as easily throw you in the same bag with a couple other Bush supporters on here, but I know you have more compassion than they've shown.

I don't know if there's been impure motive behind everything Bush has done or said. I only know what a disaster he's made of domestic policy, foreign policy, the real economy(not the numbers on the stock exchange), and the budget. The sickest part of it is that he's done it all for personal reasons and the ultimate benefit of himself, his closest cronies(Rove, Cheney, etc.), and the special interest groups that bought the White House for him.

You don't want to believe that. That's why you look for every possible way to keep from facing it. Such as how you read "retraction" into what you called the "clarification" of what O'Neal and Greenspan said. And, if you don't think there is any "political strongarming" that goes on in our government then you're incredibly innocent for someone who claims to be so aware.

Just for the record, of the intelligence information that Tenet offered Bush, Bush only accepted that which supported his cause. Of course you won't believe that either.

[RedWingFan]

BDS=Bush Derangement Syndrome, a sickness where people like you blame everything on Bush and won't believe anything anyone says about him even if it's 100% verifiable.

No, you've got that just backwards. It's the people who still find anything about him to support that are either deranged, delusional, or ignorant(or totally unconcerned) of the circumstances that exist outside their own comfort zone.

So it's the people who agree with Bush on 1 or more issues that are deranged. But people who refuse to look at an issue and judge it on it's own standing and are opposed to what Bush is for, is sane? You are completely out of your mind and a nutjob!!!! Thanks for putting your psycosis on display for everyone to see.

[Marc S]

OhSherrie
For some others its simply a case of not giving a damn about anyone but themselves.

Surely you don't mean RaiderFan?...Well I never...

[Rip Rokken]

Hot DANG, thar ain't nothing that gets mah blood pumping like good ol Amurrcan debate! All that exchangin' of ideas, zingers flying back and forth and stuff... It's the oil in the engine of democracy, I tell ya!

Who's winnin' by the way'?

[conversationpc]

No, you've got that just backwards. It's the people who still find anything about him to support that are either deranged, delusional, or ignorant(or totally unconcerned) of the circumstances that exist outside their own comfort zone.

Doesn't have anything to do with a comfort zone. It's called the reality zone. Those that believe that everything Bush does is somehow evil are the ones existing in a deluded state.

I know you don't support everything Bush does, but you're wrong about the things you do support.

If I had said something like that you'd shake your head and think how stupid I must be.

You just don't realize it because neither you nor anyone you care about has been effected by his economic policy disaster.

Disaster? Well, an economic disaster has been looming in this country since the 70s with all the debt we've piled up. Every President since then has perpetuated it, including Bush. At least we've had some tax cuts to help things limp along a little bit, which has given the federal government its largest tax revenues ever.

Not that I expect this to matter, but I resent having my complaints lumped into a catagory and labeled as a "syndrome". I could just as easily throw you in the same bag with a couple other Bush supporters on here, but I know you have more compassion than they've shown.

Well, when ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING Bush has done is somehow evil or every bad thing that has happened in this country is blamed on him, what do you call it? You've said numerous times that you could not even think of one thing that Bush has done good for the country. There's something very wrong with that. It's the same kind of delusion that some conservatives fell for in the 90s when Clinton was in office.

[conversationpc]

So it's the people who agree with Bush on 1 or more issues that are deranged. But people who refuse to look at an issue and judge it on it's own standing and are opposed to what Bush is for, is sane? You are completely out of your mind and a nutjob!!!! Thanks for putting your psycosis on display for everyone to see.

Exactly. For me, it's an issue by issue basis with Bush. Truthfully, at this point, I would consider the Bush presidency overall to be a failure. Other than tax cuts and at least attempting to fight the terrorists, I can't really think of much he's done to support.

Of course, I'm probably still wrong because I haven't been effected personally or I just don't know how they effect real people.

[ohsherrie]

Dave, I'm just done with this argument. I could keep on saying the same things I've said to you so many times before and you would keep on saying the same things you've said to me. It's not going to change either of us or anything that we're talking about.

You're a really good guy, I just wish you weren't so misguided.

[RedWingFan]

So it's the people who agree with Bush on 1 or more issues that are deranged. But people who refuse to look at an issue and judge it on it's own standing and are opposed to what Bush is for, is sane? You are completely out of your mind and a nutjob!!!! Thanks for putting your psycosis on display for everyone to see.

Exactly. For me, it's an issue by issue basis with Bush. Truthfully, at this point, I would consider the Bush presidency overall to be a failure. Other than tax cuts and at least attempting to fight the terrorists, I can't really think of much he's done to support.

Of course, I'm probably still wrong because I haven't been effected personally or I just don't know how they effect real people.

I would also count his appointments to the Supreme Court a huge success, Dave. That success should have a lasting effect long after Bush is gone. The jury will be out on the war on terrorism for a decade. History will be the judge on that. But I agree with you that Bush has been a disappointment in many areas.

[conversationpc]

I would also count his appointments to the Supreme Court a huge success, Dave. That success should have a lasting effect long after Bush is gone. The jury will be out on the war on terrorism for a decade. History will be the judge on that. But I agree with you that Bush has been a disappointment in many areas.

Well, his Supreme Court appointments haven't served long enough yet to really be able to tell if they are going to be good ones or not.

[conversationpc]

Dave, I'm just done with this argument. I could keep on saying the same things I've said to you so many times before and you would keep on saying the same things you've said to me. It's not going to change either of us or anything that we're talking about.

You're a really good guy, I just wish you weren't so misguided.

Back atcha...Just wish you weren't so brainwashed.