OT: New Movie Concern for Parents - The Golden Compass

[conversationpc]

According to public schools and most private, non-religious, schools, we should believe in the theory of evolution. We are not giving other options or possibilities as to the creation of life.

Thats because evolution is a scientific and provable law of the physical universe whereas - religion is religion. Not invalid - but doesn't belong in a science class. Are you going to add ALL the creation myths of every religion into biology or just Judeo-Christianity? BTW, MOST religions are cool with evolution. Its just a small but LOUD pocket of protestant christianity that wants to stiffle science and tell kids that there is NO connection between them and the natural world.

Hey - I believe in God AND Evolution! How's that?

Evolution is taught because it is the most popular view of how life came to be as it is now. There's no reason that there couldn't be a discussion, or at the very least a mention, of the other views that are out there. No reason at all. There's no reason that kids in school should not be allowed to hear about the most popular views of how this all came about.

[ohsherrie]

Creation is a belief. Evolution is science. There is no subject in public schools called belief nor should there be. There is a subject called science.

There is no reason whatsoever for creation to be taught in public schools unless this is a country where religion dictates law and everyone is required to comply, as in the middle east for instance.

[conversationpc]

Creation is a belief. Evolution is science. There is no subject in public schools called belief nor should there be. There is a subject called science.

There is no reason whatsoever for creation to be taught in public schools unless this is a country where religion dictates law and everyone is required to comply, as in the middle east for instance.

You would be surprised how many scientists there are studying creation science. I'm not saying they're correct but to say that there's no science behind it is just factually incorrect. Creation science is not 100% proven and neither is evolution. Believing fully in evolution is just as much faith, if not more, than it takes to believe in creation.

Besides that, there is no indoctrination involved AT ALL to just simply mention that there are alternative theories out there and that evolution does not have all the answers. To exclude other points of view simply because they may have some relation to a religion is intellectually dishonest.

Let me ask you this...Should children be taught about the Declaration of Independence because it mentions the Creator?

[ohsherrie]

Creation is a belief. Evolution is science. There is no subject in public schools called belief nor should there be. There is a subject called science.

There is no reason whatsoever for creation to be taught in public schools unless this is a country where religion dictates law and everyone is required to comply, as in the middle east for instance.

You would be surprised how many scientists there are studying creation science. I'm not saying they're correct but to say that there's no science behind it is just factually incorrect. Creation science is not 100% proven and neither is evolution. Believing fully in evolution is just as much faith, if not more, than it takes to believe in creation.

Besides that, there is no indoctrination involved AT ALL to just simply mention that there are alternative theories out there and that evolution does not have all the answers. To exclude other points of view simply because they may have some relation to a religion is intellectually dishonest.

Let me ask you this...Should children be taught about the Declaration of Independence because it mentions the Creator?

I don't know what you call 100% proven but to me there is absolute physical evidence to verify(if not prove) the theory of evolution whereas there is nothing but religious philosophy behind creation.

There is no reason whatsoever to even mention alternative hypotheses(a theory is a proven hypothesis) when it comes from belief rather than science. The subject is science, not belief. Science is taking what evidence and artifacts that exist upon which to form a conclusion and making that conclusion without the influence of any particular preconceived belief.

The so-called scientists that go looking for proof of creation are doing so with a heavy load of preconceived belief.

The Declaration of Independence was written at a time of relative ignorance. Like the Constitution, it's both scientifically and culturally archaic.

[conversationpc]

I don't know what you call 100% proven but to me there is absolute physical evidence to verify(if not prove) the theory of evolution whereas there is nothing but religious philosophy behind creation.

Not true but if you'd like to start another thread, I'd be happy to discuss it.

There is no reason whatsoever to even mention alternative hypotheses(a theory is a proven hypothesis) when it comes from belief rather than science. The subject is science, not belief. Science is taking what evidence and artifacts that exist upon which to form a conclusion and making that conclusion without the influence of any particular preconceived belief.

I can understand why people disagree on many things: abortion, drug legalization, economics, war, etc. I've never been able to understand why some people are so afraid of JUST MENTIONING that there just might possibly be an alternative view.

I sincerely hope there are enough kids out there in the school system who bring this up on their own when there are discussions like this in the classroom...or should students also not be allowed to even bring it up on their own?

The so-called scientists that go looking for proof of creation are doing so with a heavy load of preconceived belief.

This could be the most naive statement I've ever heard on the forum. Do you really think that scientists who believe strongly in evolution DON'T have preconceived beliefs. Even "scientific" dating methods rely heavily on evolutionary theory. Sounds like circular logic to me. The point is that evolutionary scientists bring as much baggage to the table when they go looking for "proof".

The Declaration of Independence was written at a time of relative ignorance. Like the Constitution, it's both scientifically and culturally archaic.

The Declaration of Independence is culturally archaic? Now THAT'S something I've never heard before.

[Higgy]

Besides that, there is no indoctrination involved AT ALL to just simply mention that there are alternative theories out there and that evolution does not have all the answers. To exclude other points of view simply because they may have some relation to a religion is intellectually dishonest.

Fine, but you'd better start with the Rg Veda and the Hindu creation myths since it is 1-a more popular religion and 2-based more on evidence than the book of Genesis. Then you'd better go into all the Native American creation stories. You should also touch on Zoroastrianism and Bhudism/Shintoism and their myths. Then go ahead and cover all the evidence there is for the book of Genesis. At some point, though, you MIGHT want to teach the FUCKING EVIDENCE that is out there in a FUCKING SCIENCE CLASS.

Science should be taught in science class. Religion should be taught in church.

This is what makes the religious war against evolution so frustrating. You call anyone who accepts the scientific FACTS of evolution "evolutionists" like some sort of sect of Satanism. It is the same type of thing that was going on when some scientitsts had the audacity to postulate that the Earth was NOT at the center of the universe.

The FACTS are - just because you have religious beliefs that discourages science (and thats what it does if you demand that students be taught that faith-based creation myths are as scientifically valid as evidenced based scientific theory), every other student shouldn't be subjected to your religious bias against science.

[conversationpc]

Fine, but you'd better start with the Rg Veda and the Hindu creation myths since it is 1-a more popular religion and 2-based more on evidence than the book of Genesis. Then you'd better go into all the Native American creation stories. You should also touch on Zoroastrianism and Bhudism/Shintoism and their myths. Then go ahead and cover all the evidence there is for the book of Genesis.

Deal.

BTW, Christianity is the world's most popular religion, followed by Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism, plus a few others. https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... nt/xx.html

Science should be taught in science class. Religion should be taught in church.

Deal here also. I'm not asking for religion to be taught in school. I'm simply asking that it EVEN JUST BE MENTIONED THAT THERE ARE ALTERNATIVE VIEWS.

This is what makes the religious war against evolution so frustrating. You call anyone who accepts the scientific FACTS of evolution "evolutionists" like some sort of sect of Satanism.

The FACTS are - just because you have religious beliefs that discourages science (and thats what it does if you demand that students be taught that faith-based creation myths are as scientifically valid as evidenced based scientific theory), every other student shouldn't be subjected to your religious bias against science.

As I said earlier, I'm more than happy to discuss evolution/creation in another thread if you care to start one.

[Rick]

Would never let my child watch a movie that denounces God. Why would anyone?

[conversationpc]

Would never let my child watch a movie that denounces God. Why would anyone?

Well, if you're an atheist. But you know, I'm just sayin'...

[Blondie]

Well, I never thought I'd stir up such a controversy, certainly not 3 pages of it.

I'll avoid the debate, but I did want to mention that my husband is a physicist and most "scientists" believe in both evolution AND creation because they look at them both through a scientific mind, not an emotional or political one. Science is proven by theories and any scientist knows this.

Anyway, my purpose was to provide information, for without it, there can be no knowledge with which to make an informed decision.

I won't take my kids to see this movie, it's intent is not to stir conversation and debate, 6 year olds are not capable of this yet, they're too literal. I feel
the author's agenda is less than honest. I'm thankful that I know this before inadvertently subjecting my kids to this. THAT is the point of this thread.

Okay, continue the debate...

[Greg]

According to public schools and most private, non-religious, schools, we should believe in the theory of evolution. We are not giving other options or possibilities as to the creation of life.

Thats because evolution is a scientific and provable law of the physical universe whereas - religion is religion. Not invalid - but doesn't belong in a science class. Are you going to add ALL the creation myths of every religion into biology or just Judeo-Christianity? BTW, MOST religions are cool with evolution. Its just a small but LOUD pocket of protestant christianity that wants to stiffle science and tell kids that there is NO connection between them and the natural world.

Hey - I believe in God AND Evolution! How's that?

Well, I won't get into a big debate over all of this. I do know that the theory of evolution is just what it is...a theory. A theory is a scientific guess, but it's not been proven. If it was, it wouldn't be called a theory.

[Greg]

Creation is a belief. Evolution is science. There is no subject in public schools called belief nor should there be. There is a subject called science.

There is no reason whatsoever for creation to be taught in public schools unless this is a country where religion dictates law and everyone is required to comply, as in the middle east for instance.

Why not? Like I've said before, religion is a huge part of not just our culture, but cultures all over the world. Of course there are plenty of reasons for it to be in schools. But, like CPC said, there is a such thing as Creationism Science. And, as Blondie stated, most scientists do also believe in creationism. Until the theory of evolution is proven (which it hasn't yet,) there is no reason to not consider other theories.

[Higgy]

According to public schools and most private, non-religious, schools, we should believe in the theory of evolution. We are not giving other options or possibilities as to the creation of life.

Thats because evolution is a scientific and provable law of the physical universe whereas - religion is religion. Not invalid - but doesn't belong in a science class. Are you going to add ALL the creation myths of every religion into biology or just Judeo-Christianity? BTW, MOST religions are cool with evolution. Its just a small but LOUD pocket of protestant christianity that wants to stiffle science and tell kids that there is NO connection between them and the natural world.

Hey - I believe in God AND Evolution! How's that?

Well, I won't get into a big debate over all of this. I do know that the theory of evolution is just what it is...a theory. A theory is a scientific guess, but it's not been proven. If it was, it wouldn't be called a theory.

Wrong. A theory is a hypothesis with proven evidence. A hypothesis is a scientific guess.

Creation is neither a "theory" nor a "hypothesis" since it has no science to even back up a guess.

[ohsherrie]

Deal here also. I'm not asking for religion to be taught in school. I'm simply asking that it EVEN JUST BE MENTIONED THAT THERE ARE ALTERNATIVE VIEWS.

The problem is that everything other than evolution is just a "VIEW". Public schools aren't there to teach views or religion. If you introduce a religious viewpoint into a subject you are in fact teaching religion.

The one question I keep hearing from proponents of teaching creation is "Why do we want to keep God out of it?" What I'm asking is why does he need to be in it? Religion, or religious viewpoint, is not a subject to be taught in public schools in this country.

I realize that to some people their religion is such an integral part of their lives that they can't even imagine parents not wanting their children indoctrinated into that religion. Take my word for it, there are parents who are just as appalled by having the Christian God thrown in their, and their children's faces as you are at the movie this thread is about or would be if you found out you child was being taught the Buddhist religious philosophy in school. As long as this is a country that has separation of church and state children of all creeds and philosophies deserve to have an education in our public schools that isn't skewed towards any religious philosophy or viewpoint.

[Marc S]

Wrong. A theory is a hypothesis with proven evidence. A hypothesis is a scientific guess.

Creation is neither a "theory" nor a "hypothesis" since it has no science to even back up a guess.

That answers it pretty well, certainly as an atheist. Evolution definitely is proven; its generally hard to disprove. The rest is a very good story, possibly the Greatest Story Ever Told, but its not based in confirmed provable fact.

I've watched this thread develop all day - I've read a few of Pullman's books and they are superb - I've not read this one yet but feel a purchase coming on; I do find it surprising, on the comments illicited here that he has gone down an anti-god route with this...I'll read it and come to my own conclusions.

It seems on some of these boards, being of a non-christian or more accurately, of a Humanist persuasion and believing that state and church should have an absolute demarcation line one comes in for a great deal of stick. I don't know if that is fair or not?

[Greg]

According to public schools and most private, non-religious, schools, we should believe in the theory of evolution. We are not giving other options or possibilities as to the creation of life.

Thats because evolution is a scientific and provable law of the physical universe whereas - religion is religion. Not invalid - but doesn't belong in a science class. Are you going to add ALL the creation myths of every religion into biology or just Judeo-Christianity? BTW, MOST religions are cool with evolution. Its just a small but LOUD pocket of protestant christianity that wants to stiffle science and tell kids that there is NO connection between them and the natural world.

Hey - I believe in God AND Evolution! How's that?

Well, I won't get into a big debate over all of this. I do know that the theory of evolution is just what it is...a theory. A theory is a scientific guess, but it's not been proven. If it was, it wouldn't be called a theory.

Wrong. A theory is a hypothesis with proven evidence. A hypothesis is a scientific guess.

Creation is neither a "theory" nor a "hypothesis" since it has no science to even back up a guess.

Well, I won't get into a big debate over all of this. I do know that the theory of evolution is just what it is...a theory. A theory is a scientific guess, but it's not been proven. If it was, it wouldn't be called a theory.

[Rick]

Would never let my child watch a movie that denounces God. Why would anyone?

Well, if you're an atheist. But you know, I'm just sayin'...

I had a feeling you'd be in this thread. Our favorite resident theologian.

[conversationpc]

The problem is that everything other than evolution is just a "VIEW". Public schools aren't there to teach views or religion. If you introduce a religious viewpoint into a subject you are in fact teaching religion.

The one question I keep hearing from proponents of teaching creation is "Why do we want to keep God out of it?" What I'm asking is why does he need to be in it? Religion, or religious viewpoint, is not a subject to be taught in public schools in this country.

I realize that to some people their religion is such an integral part of their lives that they can't even imagine parents not wanting their children indoctrinated into that religion. Take my word for it, there are parents who are just as appalled by having the Christian God thrown in their, and their children's faces as you are at the movie this thread is about or would be if you found out you child was being taught the Buddhist religious philosophy in school. As long as this is a country that has separation of church and state children of all creeds and philosophies deserve to have an education in our public schools that isn't skewed towards any religious philosophy or viewpoint.

If this were actually intended to "indoctrinate" or influence a child towards a particular religion, I'd agree with you, but it's obviously not.

[ohsherrie]

The problem is that everything other than evolution is just a "VIEW". Public schools aren't there to teach views or religion. If you introduce a religious viewpoint into a subject you are in fact teaching religion.

The one question I keep hearing from proponents of teaching creation is "Why do we want to keep God out of it?" What I'm asking is why does he need to be in it? Religion, or religious viewpoint, is not a subject to be taught in public schools in this country.

I realize that to some people their religion is such an integral part of their lives that they can't even imagine parents not wanting their children indoctrinated into that religion. Take my word for it, there are parents who are just as appalled by having the Christian God thrown in their, and their children's faces as you are at the movie this thread is about or would be if you found out you child was being taught the Buddhist religious philosophy in school. As long as this is a country that has separation of church and state children of all creeds and philosophies deserve to have an education in our public schools that isn't skewed towards any religious philosophy or viewpoint.

If this were actually intended to "indoctrinate" or influence a child towards a particular religion, I'd agree with you, but it's obviously not.

I'm so glad you're back. All this Journey talk is getting on my nerves.

Dave, it most certainly is intended to promote the Christian doctrine. If not, why would it be so important to the evangelicals that they would lobby for it to be legislated?

[TRAGChick]

This reminds me of Jerry Falwell trying to have the Teletubbies banned because he thought Tinky Winky was blatantly gay and therefore a bad influence.

A lot of churches also said children shouldn't be allowed to read or see Harry Potter because it taught witchcraft.

...and what did they think of THIS movie.... Just GATHER UP ALL COPIES OF THIS MOVIE - that's been around for over 60 years - and burn em:

"...are you a GOOD WITCH ~ or a BAD WITCH??"

[ohsherrie]

This reminds me of Jerry Falwell trying to have the Teletubbies banned because he thought Tinky Winky was blatantly gay and therefore a bad influence.

A lot of churches also said children shouldn't be allowed to read or see Harry Potter because it taught witchcraft.

...and what did they think of THIS movie.... Just GATHER UP ALL OF THEM and burn em:

"...are you a GOOD WITCH ~ or a BAD WITCH??"

That's exactly the example I used when I argued this subject several years ago. Thanks Nora.

[conversationpc]

I'm so glad you're back. All this Journey talk is getting on my nerves.

Glad to be of service.

Dave, it most certainly is intended to promote the Christian doctrine. If not, why would it be so important to the evangelicals that they would lobby for it to be legislated?

For some, it probably is. But the vast majority of Christians in this country are sick and tired of just being excluded from the public arena, being dumped on by Hollywood, and generally being considered to be unintelligent, backwoods, bucktoothed imbeciles. All we want is fair and equal footing.

I really wish I had been a Christian when I was in high school because I sure as hell would've brought up the subject of creation if the teacher hadn't. Of course, the science teachers I had were inept anyway.

[Rick]

I'm so glad you're back. All this Journey talk is getting on my nerves.

Glad to be of service.

Dave, it most certainly is intended to promote the Christian doctrine. If not, why would it be so important to the evangelicals that they would lobby for it to be legislated?

For some, it probably is. But the vast majority of Christians in this country are sick and tired of just being excluded from the public arena, being dumped on by Hollywood, and generally being considered to be unintelligent, backwoods, bucktoothed imbeciles. All we want is fair and equal footing.

I really wish I had been a Christian when I was in high school because I sure as hell would've brought up the subject of creation if the teacher hadn't. Of course, the science teachers I had were inept anyway.

Bucktoothed?

[conversationpc]

For some, it probably is. But the vast majority of Christians in this country are sick and tired of just being excluded from the public arena, being dumped on by Hollywood, and generally being considered to be unintelligent, backwoods, bucktoothed imbeciles. All we want is fair and equal footing.

I really wish I had been a Christian when I was in high school because I sure as hell would've brought up the subject of creation if the teacher hadn't. Of course, the science teachers I had were inept anyway.

Bucktoothed?

Kinda like this...

[ohsherrie]

All we want is fair and equal footing.

But fair and equal doesn't mean influencing other people into your doctrine by making children learn about it in school. Fair and equal means living your life the way you want to live it and practicing the religion of your choice without trying to legislate your values into the culture of this country.

[Abitaman]

I really wish I had been a Christian when I was in high school because I sure as hell would've brought up the subject of creation if the teacher hadn't.

- Same here. I brought up in my class last year when I was going to bio Med school, and some of the looks I would get. But again some people would come and talk to me after class and ask questions-ERIC

[Rick]

For some, it probably is. But the vast majority of Christians in this country are sick and tired of just being excluded from the public arena, being dumped on by Hollywood, and generally being considered to be unintelligent, backwoods, bucktoothed imbeciles. All we want is fair and equal footing.

I really wish I had been a Christian when I was in high school because I sure as hell would've brought up the subject of creation if the teacher hadn't. Of course, the science teachers I had were inept anyway.

Bucktoothed?

Kinda like this...

Wow!!

[conversationpc]

But fair and equal doesn't mean influencing other people into your doctrine by making children learn about it in school. Fair and equal means living your life the way you want to live it and practicing the religion of your choice without trying to legislate your values into the culture of this country.

How is it fair and equal to simply even just mention there is another theory out there? The only conclusion I can come to is that people don't want there to be a competing idea. That's not what education is supposed to be about. There's no legislating of any values there. Why would it be wrong for kids to learn that evolution doesn't have the answer for everything and there are indeed very large questions as to the veracity of some of the things taught in regards to evolutionary science.

[ohsherrie]

But fair and equal doesn't mean influencing other people into your doctrine by making children learn about it in school. Fair and equal means living your life the way you want to live it and practicing the religion of your choice without trying to legislate your values into the culture of this country.

How is it fair and equal to simply even just mention there is another theory out there? The only conclusion I can come to is that people don't want there to be a competing idea. That's not what education is supposed to be about. There's no legislating of any values there. Why would it be wrong for kids to learn that evolution doesn't have the answer for everything and there are indeed very large questions as to the veracity of some of the things taught in regards to evolutionary science.

Because what you see as a competing idea is really no more than a religious viewpoint. There is no science to verify creation Dave. I know there have been some who have claimed to have found proof, but their only proof is ultimately dependent on their belief. There is indisputable scientific evidence of evolution whether the creationists what to acknowledge it or not.

If you want competing ideas then you have to have a class specifically for the various religious theories on creation. Like Higgy said you'll have to give equal credibility to all of the religions of the world. How long would it be before start up religions would be lobbying for inclusion? Hell, the atheists already start out on equal footing.

Even though your truth is the only truth to you, it isn't the only truth to others.

[conversationpc]

Because what you see as a competing idea is really no more than a religious viewpoint. There is no science to verify creation Dave. I know there have been some who have claimed to have found proof, but their only proof is ultimately dependent on their belief. There is indisputable scientific evidence of evolution whether the creationists what to acknowledge it or not.

Not true at all and you'd be surprised how much of so-called discoveries that "prove" evolution were dependent on evolutionary-based theories in the first place, which is kinda like using evolution to prove itself. Like I said, there is evidence for creation there, you just have to be willing to look at it.

Evolution will still never be able to answer how life originated because it cannot answer how the first matter came into existence in the first place. Did it create itself or has it always existed. If it's always existed then it violates the laws of thermodynamics. If it created itself, then it would have some pretty unexplainable qualities, wouldn't it? Qualities that could only be attributable to a deity.

If you want competing ideas then you have to have a class specifically for the various religious theories on creation. Like Higgy said you'll have to give equal credibility to all of the religions of the world. How long would it be before start up religions would be lobbying for inclusion? Hell, the atheists already start out on equal footing.

Even though your truth is the only truth to you, it isn't the only truth to others.

Exactly. Thanks.