OT: smear letter on ebay

[Melissa]

Lowest IQ? Where'd you read this? Daily Kos? Bush had a higher GPA than Kerry or Gore. Just sayin'

Majoring in cocaine abuse is pretty easy compared to real classes

GPA means nothing. Bush also "received" more votes in Florida than Mr Gore, so using that logic, anything is possible, eh?

My input here is not necessary. All of these beautiful people, and I mean everyone here, helped me and my family out in the darkest of times. I don't have the gumption nor the backbone to rip anyone any more be it Journey, Bush or the environment. I guess you could say I have lost my edge. I can't re-engage, can't get back in the saddle. My life has become a act. I am not myself. I literally am putting up a fake front of sorts. On the outside, I am polite and couteous to my co workers and friends, but inside, I am dying by the day. A big part of me wants to say goodbye to this world, but there is also another big part of me that keeps me churning, and that is Lula and Wyatt.

So, in summation, do I still get fired up over politics and such? Absolutely, but you won't see me express my inferno like passion here.

The darkness will get better Dean. I know all too well that is downright impossible to believe right now, but it will. You hold on, & hold Wyatt & Lula.

[RedWingFan]

If you are conservative, you are a racist, biggot, sexist, homophobe who wants to slaughter the poor and homeless where they lie!

Yeah, I forgot I work for Evil Conservative Industries.

Does that mean you're agreeing with that description of yourself? I don't think I've ever accused you of anything that vile. Now RF maybe, but not you.

Look Sherrie, I know you buy into the whole class warfare thing. You have the upper class, upper middle, lower middle, and poor, however you want to break it down. People are not locked into any of those groups. People move in and out every day. Me, I don't know for a fact, but I'd guess lower middle class. I believe the government really screwed the pooch with "the new deal". I think when the government stepped in to help the poor, they destroyed alot of families. The nanny state had stepped in, thus eliminating the need for fathers in the home, leading to more deadbeat dads. Lack of a 2 parent family has destroyed futures and turned alot of kids to crime. Don't have time to get too deep into it, but more government control will not fix it.

[conversationpc]

...but more government control will not fix it.

Exactly. Just the opposite is almost always the case.

[ohsherrie]

Look Sherrie, I know you buy into the whole class warfare thing. You have the upper class, upper middle, lower middle, and poor, however you want to break it down. People are not locked into any of those groups. People move in and out every day. Me, I don't know for a fact, but I'd guess lower middle class. I believe the government really screwed the pooch with "the new deal". I think when the government stepped in to help the poor, they destroyed alot of families. The nanny state had stepped in, thus eliminating the need for fathers in the home, leading to more deadbeat dads. Lack of a 2 parent family has destroyed futures and turned alot of kids to crime. Don't have time to get too deep into it, but more government control will not fix it.

RF, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying in this post. I'm going to try to answer each point as I see it though.

As for classes, there weren't supposed to be classes in this country, but that's not realistic. There used to be a healthy middle class in this country though. There were the rich and the poor, and that huge gap between the two was filled with the middle class. The middle class had good lives that personified the 'American Dream'.

The families that were destroyed were the middle class families. The jobs that supported those middle class families are the ones that got outsourced so that the CEOs, board members, and stock holders of the companies could move into the rich catagory. In the process, for some reason, while thousands of people were losing their incomes and health care the economy of this country appeared to be soaring. Go figure. Somehow thousands of people going from $20 an hour jobs with health care benefits to $8 an hour jobs with no benefits(but the unemployment rate didn't rise ) doesn't look like a good economy to me. But then, I'm just a middle class industrial engineer, teacher, housewife who recently moved into the lower middle class ranks so what do I know?

I have no idea what it is that you're calling the nanny state or eliminating the need for the father in the home.

[Skylorde]

Sherrie,

I want to respond to a few of your points.

As for classes, there weren't supposed to be classes in this country

Umm, where exactly is that written or stated?

The families that were destroyed were the middle class families. The jobs that supported those middle class families are the ones that got outsourced so that the CEOs, board members, and stock holders of the companies could move into the rich catagory.

I agree on the greed, I agree that the middle class is being systematically dismantled. I disagree that the corporations are to blame and here's why. WE THE PEOPLE have failed miserably in upholding our responsibility in the free market place. The corporatins should *NEVER* be denied their right to outsource just as YOU as a consumer should never be denied the right to seek the lowest price for everyday goods.

Like it or not, WE THE PEOPLE fuel the greed of the outsourcing corporations by our callous disregard for where products are made, as long as we get a CHEAP PRICE. Walmart ring a bell? WE THE PEOPLE also fuel the greed as stockholders of these mega corporations with unrealistic profit expectations and we buy stocks in companies with huge profit promises, regardless of whether their business practices are in stark contrast to the good of America.

If ALL players in the free market system do their part, the market will always stabalize itself for the benfit of everyone. WE THE PEOPLE have failed miserably in performing our part. If the majority of people made efforts to stop buying products from outsourcing corporations, outsourcing would stop tomorrow. Why? They might cut 33% or 40% off of their productions costs but their sales would plummet so low they'd be in Bankruptcy in six months. No need for government intervention. These corporations NEED the consumption of the very people they are taking jobs away from.

That is an example of a Government By The People and For The People.

We The People have become laxed, lazy, uneducated and disinterested in the workings of our Government and now we are reaping what we sow.

Let me ask you a question.

What do you suppose would happen if you have a multi-trillion dollar tax coffer, a small handful of people (in proportion to the population) have been put in charge of that tax coffer AND the very people they've sworn to serve are simply too lazy to bother to pay attention?

Here's the answer: Naturally, human greed will overcome them and that leads to rampant corruption. Do you honestly think for a minute the leftists running the house and sentate are any more/less corrupt than the idiots they replaced in 2006?

[ohsherrie]

Sherrie,

I want to respond to a few of your points.

As for classes, there weren't supposed to be classes in this country

Umm, where exactly is that written or stated?

That's the way most people interpret the "all men are created equal" phrase and tone of the rights given equally to all citizens by the constitution. I agree that that probably isn't exactly what it means, but that's what used to be taught as it's meaning.

I agree on the greed, I agree that the middle class is being systematically dismantled. I disagree that the corporations are to blame and here's why. WE THE PEOPLE have failed miserably in upholding our responsibility in the free market place. The corporatins should *NEVER* be denied their right to outsource just as YOU as a consumer should never be denied the right to seek the lowest price for everyday goods.

I never said they should be denied the right, but they sure as hell shouldn't have been given Corporate Welfare and tax breaks for doing it.

Like it or not, WE THE PEOPLE fuel the greed of the outsourcing corporations by our callous disregard for where products are made, as long as we get a CHEAP PRICE. Walmart ring a bell? WE THE PEOPLE also fuel the greed as stockholders of these mega corporations with unrealistic profit expectations and we buy stocks in companies with huge profit promises, regardless of whether their business practices are in stark contrast to the good of America.

If ALL players in the free market system do their part, the market will always stabalize itself for the benfit of everyone. WE THE PEOPLE have failed miserably in performing our part. If the majority of people made efforts to stop buying products from outsourcing corporations, outsourcing would stop tomorrow. Why? They might cut 33% or 40% off of their productions costs but their sales would plummet so low they'd be in Bankruptcy in six months. No need for government intervention. These corporations NEED the consumption of the very people they are taking jobs away from.

That is an example of a Government By The People and For The People.

For the most part, people are going to buy the best products they can afford to buy, but with the middle class income declining over the last several years they had to get the best value for their money. It wasn't always a matter of choice.

If our government had required all countries that import into this country to pay the same tariff rates that the country of origin would have required this country to pay on our exports, maybe our people would have bought more goods that were made in the USA. But no, instead our government gave the importers tax breaks, and also gave our corporations tax breaks to move operations out of the country.

It wasn't as much in the hands of We The People as it should have been.

We The People have become laxed, lazy, uneducated and disinterested in the workings of our Government and now we are reaping what we sow.

I agree that the people who don't get involved even enough to pay attention to the candidates and vote are a big part of the problem.

Let me ask you a question.

What do you suppose would happen if you have a multi-trillion dollar tax coffer, a small handful of people (in proportion to the population) have been put in charge of that tax coffer AND the very people they've sworn to serve are simply too lazy to bother to pay attention?

Here's the answer: Naturally, human greed will overcome them and that leads to rampant corruption. Do you honestly think for a minute the leftists running the house and sentate are any more/less corrupt than the idiots they replaced in 2006?

I also agree that the disinterest of the people has allowed the corruption. Especially in light of the fact that the huge disapproval ratings that all the polls are showing on virtually everything to do with the current administration and congress, and yet they just keep on doing what they want to. They're no longer there to represent the people of this country. They're there because it's what they do for a living and they're taking care of their own agendas.

I do however believe that the Democratic party cares more about a much broader section of the population of this country and is less influenced by the more heinous of special interest groups.

Another problem is that many people who do vote, vote for the candidate or party who they think will do the most for a particular special interest of theirs and pay no attention to anything else that the candidate or party says, does or represents. For instance, many of the people around here who have lost their jobs because of the outsourcing that was encouraged and orchestrated by the current administration(and his father's before him) will still pledge allegiance to that party because their religious leader or the NRA says they should. That may sound simplistic to you, but I swear to you it's the truth. They blame the Democrats for NAFTA and say Bill Clinton sent their jobs away and took away their insurance. So yes, you are right that ignorance is a big part of the problem.

[Skylorde]

Great response Sherrie, just a few points

It wasn't as much in the hands of We The People as it should have been.

You are completely wrong.

Everything is entirely in our hands. At the end of the day, we have only ourselves to blame because we consciously choose to look the other way while the politicians steam roll us.

I do however believe that the Democratic party cares more about a much broader section of the population of this country and is less influenced by the more heinous of special interest groups.

There's a cold reality waiting to set in regarding that statement.

[conversationpc]

There's a cold reality waiting to set in regarding that statement.

Exactly. Higher taxes and a slower economy will be the reality. Also, if anyone thinks the taxes will only be higher for the "rich" then they are sadly mistaken.

[strangegrey]

Sherrie,

I want to respond to a few of your points.

As for classes, there weren't supposed to be classes in this country

Umm, where exactly is that written or stated?

That's the way most people interpret the "all men are created equal" phrase and tone of the rights given equally to all citizens by the constitution. I agree that that probably isn't exactly what it means, but that's what used to be taught as it's meaning.

Hi Sherrie, one comment here. Be careful when you do 'personal' interpretations of the constitution. The way 'most' people interpret the constitution may not be the same way the courts interpret it....and the cold hard truth here is that what the courts interpret is what matters. Not what people feel the constitution means.

Let's take Freedom of Speech, as it's the heart of this discussion. Freedom of Speech is one of the most *misinterpreted* rights we have as americans. What "most" americans believe is that they can say anything, anywhere, to anyone. Would you think that someone has freedom of speech in the workplace? Not at ALL so, unless the person works for the government (or an organization subsidized by the gov.). The fact of the matter is that our speech is protected FROM intrusion by the GOVERNMENT. No one else. Thats why this Limbaugh letter is so huge....as soon as Harry Reid and the 40-something other senators signed it, they made it an official government action (irrespective of whether the letter had the full force of the constitution with a majority vote)....and Rush's right to freedom of speech, under this scenario is specifically what the constitutional right of freedom of speech was written for.

Let's go back to common (case) law....The fact of the matter is that all men, legally, are not equal. There's hundreds of years of case law to support that. Also, the courts have interpreted the 'all men created equal' phrase with specific treatment of discrimination cases...and depending on the fact pattern, there are 3 different legal aproaches to this....which proves that discrimination/equality isn't a hard and fast rule that supercedes others.

One final issue....are you confusing classes with casts? (for the rest of this post, I will assume you meant cast) Because I would understand if you said we're not supposed to have a cast system. However, having different classes is not a government specified division. It's a description created largely for describing groups of people in a financial position...and that description is utilized mostly by the media. Its a label, nothing more, nothing less. There are people in this country that have crossed the classes and gone from the lower class to the upper class by hard work and there are people that have gone the reverse through stupidity/laziness.

The issue here....and to tie in what Mike has said...is that as a society, we've gotten lazy enough where we *expect* the government to do things for us. By *relying* on the government, we are, through our OWN FAULT, forcing a defacto-cast system....The government isnt creating this issue. We are, through inaction....

More services, more healthcare, more affirmative action, amnesty for illegals, etc...all of these social efforts do nothing but ruin the drive that americans have to better themselves.

If you want a cast system in this country....the safest and surest way to achieve that, is to empower government to do for us, what we used to do for ourselves.....it's a slippery slope that we're already heading down.

I'm all for helping people better their situation....but that help is FAR better reserved to local groups and local government. Empowering the national goverment to do this sorta thing will only result in the very cast system you're refering to.

[ohsherrie]

Great response Sherrie, just a few points

It wasn't as much in the hands of We The People as it should have been.

You are completely wrong.

Everything is entirely in our hands. At the end of the day, we have only ourselves to blame because we consciously choose to look the other way while the politicians steam roll us.

Until a candidate comes along who represents the values of the moderates in both of the parties and bring them together against the extremes of the two parties to such an extent that they really feel threatened, then there really is very little that the people can do at this point under the current system.

Meryl Streep was on GMA this morning and said that her mother thought people should be required to vote. Any eligible voter who was able to vote and didn't would be fined and if they failed to vote three times their citizenship should be revoked.

That might work, but I think radical election and campaign reforms would be better. We would have to get the money and special interest groups out of it in some way.

What if campaigning as we know it now was eliminated altogether? Let's go one further. Let's eliminate the political parties. Why do we need them? While we're at it I think we should also eliminate the electorial college for that matter. In this day of instant ballot counting why do we need it?

We could use basically the same criteria for qualifying as a candidate that the Constitution defines now. However, all of these exploratory committees and fundraisers and such could be eliminated. That's all just about money and we're taking that out of the equation. Some procedures for becoming a candidate would need to be established though. We can work that out.

There would of course need to be some filtering process because of the potential for crackpots cluttering up the field, and because the people don't have the time to know everything they need to know about a miriad of candidates. Let's let those state electorial delegates to that. They can have a convention and screen out the extremes and duds(sort of like the AI producers so but we don't want them letting a few through for the entertainment value) down to an accepable number of serious candidates. It wouldn't hurt to have 4 to 6 candidates.

In this information age, there is no need for all the flashy, expensive campaigning at all. Each candidate submits a biography and personal fact sheet to be verified by the electorial delegates and would answer a preset list of questions as established by the people through their electorial delegates that represent the most pressing issues in the country. That information, along with a record of any previous politically related activities on the candidates that are accepted will then be distributed though all media sources to the people of the country. After reviewing that information, any other questions the people may have would be submitted to the electorial delegates and those questions would be asked of the candidates in a televised debate by a moderator of the delegate's choice. Again any questionable answers given by the candidates would be verified by the delegates.

Then let the election take place based on nothing but facts and records.

I do however believe that the Democratic party cares more about a much broader section of the population of this country and is less influenced by the more heinous of special interest groups.

There's a cold reality waiting to set in regarding that statement.

Maybe, but it sure as hell isn't likely to get any worse. At least not from where I'm sitting.

[Skylorde]

Hi Sherrie, one comment here. Be careful when you do <SNIP>

Damn!! You really aren't the stupid meatball dego you look like!

Just kidding dude, nice post.

[RedWingFan]

Sherrie,

I want to respond to a few of your points.

As for classes, there weren't supposed to be classes in this country

Umm, where exactly is that written or stated?

That's the way most people interpret the "all men are created equal" phrase and tone of the rights given equally to all citizens by the constitution. I agree that that probably isn't exactly what it means, but that's what used to be taught as it's meaning.

I'm all for "equal rights" but for politicians to try to impose the "equality of results" is WRONG. People in this country shouldn't be punished anymore than the "poor" should be ridiculed.

[ohsherrie]

There's a cold reality waiting to set in regarding that statement.

Exactly. Higher taxes and a slower economy will be the reality. Also, if anyone thinks the taxes will only be higher for the "rich" then they are sadly mistaken.

Uh, were you awake during the Clinton administration or were too focused on Bill's love life to realize how good the economy was?

[RedWingFan]

There's a cold reality waiting to set in regarding that statement.

Exactly. Higher taxes and a slower economy will be the reality. Also, if anyone thinks the taxes will only be higher for the "rich" then they are sadly mistaken.

Uh, were you awake during the Clinton administration or were too focused on Bill's love life to realize how good the economy was?

Unemployment was higher as were interest rates on average. It's better now. If you want to know the effects of liberalism. Check out my home states pathetic situation. Lib Governor, 2 lib senators, house and senate split. Unemployment here is over 7. Bliss

[ohsherrie]

I know this is going to come as a huge shock Frank so I hope you're sitting down. I don't disagreee with anything you said.

People assume that my voting Democratic because I think they look after the interests of more of the people of this country means I want the government to hand out welfare checks or whatever. That is absolutely not true. In fact, I think one way to fill those menial jobs that they say aren't getting done because of the clamp down on illegal immigration is to get the welfare recipients off their asses. Any able bodied adult that is drawing welfare should be earning that money if there is a job that needs done. I'd rather have my taxes pay for day care for them to work than pay them not to work.

What I mean by the Dems caring more about more of the people is that they are less likely to enact legislation that creates a hardship for one segment of the population in order to help another. Especially if their hurting the working class to help the wealthy heads of corporations.

I do also absolutely think it's an atrocity for so many people in this country to be without health care benefits. Do you know how many thousands of people who had healthcare as part of their job benefits package now not only don't have the job and benefits, there are no jobs realistically available to them that pay benefits, or pay enough for them to afford benefits. That's the segment of the population that I'm most concerned about. In fact, it's the largest segment of our population right now.

You're right about the interpretation of the constitution and the class system thing. The discussion that Mike and I were referring to though was about how the general public came to think that there was no class system in this country. Yes, I know that what most people call the class system was really the cast system. However, if someone who lived within a true cast system were to look at the distribution of wealth in this country right now, it would certainly look like a few Fuedal Lords had a whole hell of a lot of serfs.

[Barb]

What I mean by the Dems caring more about more of the people is that they are less likely to enact legislation that creates a hardship for one segment of the population in order to help another. Especially if their hurting the working class to help the wealthy heads of corporations.

I fully expect to have to quit my job if a Democrat wins this election because we will no longer be able to afford the taxes once her Highness raises them. What you said about is ALL the Democrats are about! They will tax those they decide have too much to give to those they decide do not. That is utter bullshit. Living in California and having a household income of $200K is a hell of a lot different than living in Oklahoma and having an income of $200K - but the federal government taxes it exactly the same. Another example -- some state, can't remember which one, wanted to tax cigarettes by another $2 a pack to pay for healthcare for "poor" kids. WTF is that? I don't smoke, but I don't think the smokers of America have the responsibility of paying for everyone's health care!

As to your comment about corporations -- CORPORATIONS DO NOT PAY TAXES! The government can say okay, you now have to pay $1M a year in tax. What happens is that employees won't get raises, their health care costs will go up and the consumer will pay more for the products to cover that "tax". It might make you feel all warm and fuzzy to hear Hillary Clinton say she is going to take the profits of the oil companies to do what she sees fit with them, but you're crazy if you don't think that will hurt the poor and the middle class.

[Rockindeano]

I fully expect to have to quit my job if a Democrat wins this election because we will no longer be able to afford the taxes once her Highness raises them. What you said about is ALL the Democrats are about! They will tax those they decide have too much to give to those they decide do not. That is utter bullshit. Living in California and having a household income of $200K is a hell of a lot different than living in Oklahoma and having an income of $200K - but the federal government taxes it exactly the same. Another example -- some state, can't remember which one, wanted to tax cigarettes by another $2 a pack to pay for healthcare for "poor" kids. WTF is that? I don't smoke, but I don't think the smokers of America have the responsibility of paying for everyone's health care!

Oregon

[ohsherrie]

There's a cold reality waiting to set in regarding that statement.

Exactly. Higher taxes and a slower economy will be the reality. Also, if anyone thinks the taxes will only be higher for the "rich" then they are sadly mistaken.

Uh, were you awake during the Clinton administration or were too focused on Bill's love life to realize how good the economy was?

Unemployment was higher as were interest rates on average. It's better now. If you want to know the effects of liberalism. Check out my home states pathetic situation. Lib Governor, 2 lib senators, house and senate split. Unemployment here is over 7. Bliss

Well, maybe there were a few more people out of work but a hell of a lot more of them that were working were making a living wage and had heathcare benefits. Interest rates, yeah they were higher, our CDs, Annuities and IRAs were making a lot more money then. So were our investment funds.

Those people who bought all those houses that were built(helping the unemployment rates and the economic numbers) are in really good shape now aren't they? The damned government's going to help them though so they can keep their houses while hundreds of thousands of other people lose their incomes.

I don't know what your homestate is, but let me tell you about mine.

The economy of this state, at least that of the majority of it, has traditionally been based on the tobacco, textile, and furniture industries. They are no more. They are all still very big industries, but not here anymore.

People who had worked in some of these industries for 30 to 40 years are now finding themselves between 50 and 60 years old, without jobs, without healthcare, in some cases without education, and without any jobs available that pay a living wage. I'm not talking about a few people RF, I'm talking about 10s of thousands of people. Hell it may even be 100s of thousand statewide. I only have personal experience here in south central VA.

I'm not talking just a few factories either. Each of these had several manufacturing facilities employing several hundred, sometimes up to a thousand, people each.

Textiles:

Dan River Corporation
Burlington Industries
JP Stephens
Lee Jeans
Lee Athleticwear
Tultex
Sara Lee Knitwear
Vanity Fair

Furniture:

Lane Furniture
Bassett Furniture
American Furniture
Hooker Furniture
Stanley Furniture

The only jobs available to most of these people are fast food and retail jobs and the stock market and interest rates aren't doing them a bit of good because they're having to sell their stocks and withdraw their savings just to live.

I've been doing some tutoring for the last few weeks. Not for school kids though. For adults who have been doing the same jobs for 30 to 40 years and never expected to have to learn how to get another one. Some of these people are trying to get a GED because back when they were in high school, in this area of the country, most boys only went to school until you could either get a job or go to work on the family tobacco farm and most girls only went until they got married to one of those boys.

I'm not saying that as any form of ridicule at all. That was the way of life in the rural mid-Atlantic and southern states. It wasn't the fault of the people involved as much as the fault of the cultural, societal, and political influences that have been involved since this country came into being.

This isn't the only place it's happening either. There are towns throughout the midwest(my original home territory) that were built around industries that no longer exist in this country.

Oh, and all those technical jobs that were going to replace the manufacturing, have you called a tech center lately?

[RedWingFan]

What I mean by the Dems caring more about more of the people is that they are less likely to enact legislation that creates a hardship for one segment of the population in order to help another. Especially if their hurting the working class to help the wealthy heads of corporations.

I fully expect to have to quit my job if a Democrat wins this election because we will no longer be able to afford the taxes once her Highness raises them.

Ah, that's part of the plan. You'd then be another dependent on government for basic needs. More control for government less freedom for you. A liberal/socialist win.

What you said about is ALL the Democrats are about! They will tax those they decide have too much to give to those they decide do not. That is utter bullshit.

It's also a fact that "poor" people do not create jobs or have a payroll. High taxes on the upper class affect everyone negatively (except those within the government)

As to your comment about corporations -- CORPORATIONS DO NOT PAY TAXES! The government can say okay, you now have to pay $1M a year in tax. What happens is that employees won't get raises, their health care costs will go up and the consumer will pay more for the products to cover that "tax".

Same with the minimum wage. Business either cuts head count to keep payroll costs down and/or raise prices.
Great post Barb.

[conversationpc]

The economy of this state, at least that of the majority of it, has traditionally been based on the tobacco, textile, and furniture industries. They are no more. They are all still very big industries, but not here anymore.

Sherrie, do you live in North Carolina? Just curious.

[ohsherrie]

CORPORATIONS DO NOT PAY TAXES!

I know, that's a huge part of the problem. They don't pay taxes and their CEOs and other board members pay only a minuscule percent of their income as compared to the average working person.

[ohsherrie]

The economy of this state, at least that of the majority of it, has traditionally been based on the tobacco, textile, and furniture industries. They are no more. They are all still very big industries, but not here anymore.

Sherrie, do you live in North Carolina? Just curious.

No, Virginia, but it's very much the same situation.

[Barb]

CORPORATIONS DO NOT PAY TAXES!

I know, that's a huge part of the problem. They don't pay taxes and their CEOs and other board members pay only a minuscule percent of their income as compared to the average working person.

I give up.

[RedWingFan]

There's a cold reality waiting to set in regarding that statement.

Exactly. Higher taxes and a slower economy will be the reality. Also, if anyone thinks the taxes will only be higher for the "rich" then they are sadly mistaken.

Uh, were you awake during the Clinton administration or were too focused on Bill's love life to realize how good the economy was?

Unemployment was higher as were interest rates on average. It's better now. If you want to know the effects of liberalism. Check out my home states pathetic situation. Lib Governor, 2 lib senators, house and senate split. Unemployment here is over 7. Bliss

Well, maybe there were a few more people out of work but a hell of a lot more of them that were working were making a living wage and had heathcare benefits.

What the hell is a living wage but a bogus term. Companies like Walmart do alot to lower the "living wage" with ridiculously low prices and oh $4 prescriptions. Yet the party of the little guy is constantly trying to tear them down because they're succeeding to help the little guy through the private sector. The DNC doesn't give a rip about anything but power and control.
Cry me a river over the state of Virginia. Michigan is hemmoraging worse than any other state, and the good libs here have the brilliant plan to raise taxes even further. I along with others will be spending less, hurting evil businesses...vicious cycle.
We are in a global economy, instead of crying and running to the government, we're gonna have to compete.

[ohsherrie]

CORPORATIONS DO NOT PAY TAXES!

I know, that's a huge part of the problem. They don't pay taxes and their CEOs and other board members pay only a minuscule percent of their income as compared to the average working person.

I give up.

Why would you do that? The companies that I and my husband both worked for got outsourced leaving us with no healthcare in our late 50s and only our intelligence, skills, and determination to keep us going, but we didn't give up.

[Skylorde]

CORPORATIONS DO NOT PAY TAXES!

I know, that's a huge part of the problem. They don't pay taxes and their CEOs and other board members pay only a minuscule percent of their income as compared to the average working person.

Sherrie,

Ummm, I guess you don't get it. Corporations do pay taxes, A LOT of taxes. What Barb is trying to tell you is if you decide to smash the corporations with even more and more taxes, they simply cut jobs, reduce benefits and raise their prices to REFLECT the difference. The net loss is ZERO for the corporation, the net loss for the working schmuck is loss of job or loss of benefits or both.

So then what? The government has their money, the corporation STILL have ALL of their money and the working stiff's get fucked. Great idea.

[RedWingFan]

CORPORATIONS DO NOT PAY TAXES!

I know, that's a huge part of the problem. They don't pay taxes and their CEOs and other board members pay only a minuscule percent of their income as compared to the average working person.

Um. Close, the top 1% pay like 32% of federal taxes. The top 20% pay 80%. The bottom 50% pay less than 4%. That was according to IRS data in 2004. I believe Bush's tax cuts shifted even a larger portion to the top brackets. I know you'll ignore these facts though.

[conversationpc]

It's also a fact that "poor" people do not create jobs or have a payroll. High taxes on the upper class affect everyone negatively (except those within the government)

The best solution is tax reform and I support the Fair Tax. That way, you are only taxed when you purchase something, so it is within your power how much tax you pay. Your income will go up since the government will not have to withhold taxes. Also, as far as I know, the Fair Tax is the only tax reform plan that completely eliminates the tax burden for the poor since it includes a monthly prebate.

[conversationpc]

Um. Close, the top 1% pay like 32% of federal taxes. The top 20% pay 80%. The bottom 50% pay less than 4%. That was according to IRS data in 2004. I believe Bush's tax cuts shifted even a larger portion to the top brackets. I know you'll ignore these facts though.

Truthfully, I think those numbers don't really mean much. Obviously, if I make more money, the gross amount of taxes I pay is going to be more than someone who makes much less even though we may pay the same percentage.

[RedWingFan]

It's also a fact that "poor" people do not create jobs or have a payroll. High taxes on the upper class affect everyone negatively (except those within the government)

The best solution is tax reform and I support the Fair Tax. That way, you are only taxed when you purchase something, so it is within your power how much tax you pay. Your income will go up since the government will not have to withhold taxes. Also, as far as I know, the Fair Tax is the only tax reform plan that completely eliminates the tax burden for the poor since it includes a monthly prebate.

Yeah It does make alot of sense. It'll also encourage people to save money. I've heard Thomas Sowell talk about it. Dr. Sowell is a brilliant guy!