OT: smear letter on ebay

[Barb]

CORPORATIONS DO NOT PAY TAXES!

I know, that's a huge part of the problem. They don't pay taxes and their CEOs and other board members pay only a minuscule percent of their income as compared to the average working person.

Um. Close, the top 1% pay like 32% of federal taxes. The top 20% pay 80%. The bottom 50% pay less than 4%. That was according to IRS data in 2004. I believe Bush's tax cuts shifted even a larger portion to the top brackets. I know you'll ignore these facts though.

The top 1% of wage earners pay 36.89 percent of all federal income tax for the entire country.
The top 50% pay 96.7 percent of all federal income tax.
The top 25% of wage earners pay 84.6% of all federal income tax!!!

This was for tax year 2006.

That would indicate that about 1/2 of this country doesn't pay anything.

[RedWingFan]

Um. Close, the top 1% pay like 32% of federal taxes. The top 20% pay 80%. The bottom 50% pay less than 4%. That was according to IRS data in 2004. I believe Bush's tax cuts shifted even a larger portion to the top brackets. I know you'll ignore these facts though.

Truthfully, I think those numbers don't really mean much. Obviously, if I make more money, the gross amount of taxes I pay is going to be more than someone who makes much less even though we may pay the same percentage.

They mean plenty when people cry about not getting much of a tax cut!

[ohsherrie]

CORPORATIONS DO NOT PAY TAXES!

I know, that's a huge part of the problem. They don't pay taxes and their CEOs and other board members pay only a minuscule percent of their income as compared to the average working person.

Sherrie,

Ummm, I guess you don't get it. Corporations do pay taxes, A LOT of taxes. What Barb is trying to tell you is if you decide to smash the corporations with even more and more taxes, they simply cut jobs, reduce benefits and raise their prices to REFLECT the difference. The net loss is ZERO for the corporation, the net loss for the working schmuck is loss of job or loss of benefits or both.

So then what? The government has their money, the corporation STILL have ALL of their money and the working stiff's get fucked. Great idea.

Yeah, I do get that Mike, but what I'm trying in my "ditzy, airhead" sarcastic way to say is at least the corporation she works for is still in this country employing her.

Yes, they pay corporate taxes by taking them out of the working people, but the human beings at the top of that corporation don't pay anywhere near the percentage of taxes that those working people do.

I don't know that the Dems will raise corporate taxes, but they damned well should make sure the people at the head of that corporation pay a higher percentage of their incomes than the working people. If those CEOs and board members find a way to shift their personal tax responsibility onto the corporation it's not the tax that's the problem.

[ohsherrie]

It's also a fact that "poor" people do not create jobs or have a payroll. High taxes on the upper class affect everyone negatively (except those within the government)

The best solution is tax reform and I support the Fair Tax. That way, you are only taxed when you purchase something, so it is within your power how much tax you pay. Your income will go up since the government will not have to withhold taxes. Also, as far as I know, the Fair Tax is the only tax reform plan that completely eliminates the tax burden for the poor since it includes a monthly prebate.

Now that's something I don't know about, but I can guarantee you that the rich will find a way to avoid paying taxes on the personal jet by calling it corporate.

[conversationpc]

Now that's something I don't know about, but I can guarantee you that the rich will find a way to avoid paying taxes on the personal jet by calling it corporate.

Under the Fair Tax, ALL goods and services would be taxed when purchased. No exemptions.

[Rockindeano]

Oh I want to jump in here and say something...

Must refrain, must refrain, look the other way...

[ohsherrie]

Um. Close, the top 1% pay like 32% of federal taxes. The top 20% pay 80%. The bottom 50% pay less than 4%. That was according to IRS data in 2004. I believe Bush's tax cuts shifted even a larger portion to the top brackets. I know you'll ignore these facts though.

Truthfully, I think those numbers don't really mean much. Obviously, if I make more money, the gross amount of taxes I pay is going to be more than someone who makes much less even though we may pay the same percentage.

They mean plenty when people cry about not getting much of a tax cut!

Actually RF, anybody with an income below what the government call the poverty level of income shouldn't have to pay any taxes. I do taxes by the way so I know a little bit about this. The Earned Income Credit that is supposed to keep people who make less than a certain amount from paying taxes helps families with children, but there are older people whose expenses make them just as unable to afford the taxes but who don't qualify for EIC.

Like Dave said, the tax system needs a huge reform but it's to the advantage of the special interest groups that pay for all those lobbyists to keep it the way it is.

[ohsherrie]

Now that's something I don't know about, but I can guarantee you that the rich will find a way to avoid paying taxes on the personal jet by calling it corporate.

Under the Fair Tax, ALL goods and services would be taxed when purchased. No exemptions.

So, if this wheeler-dealer CEO buy himself a jet and hides it as a corporate purchase and the employees end up footing the bill, that's fair?

[ohsherrie]

Oh I want to jump in here and say something...

Must refrain, must refrain, look the other way...

Why must you look the other way? I really want to know what you think about all of this.

[RedWingFan]

Oh I want to jump in here and say something...

Must refrain, must refrain, look the other way...

We're all having a civilized convo. Jump in dude, waters warm.

[Barb]

Oh I want to jump in here and say something...

Must refrain, must refrain, look the other way...

Hey you! If it'll lift your spirits, go ahead and let me have it! I know you want to.

[strangegrey]

It's also a fact that "poor" people do not create jobs or have a payroll. High taxes on the upper class affect everyone negatively (except those within the government)

The best solution is tax reform and I support the Fair Tax. That way, you are only taxed when you purchase something, so it is within your power how much tax you pay. Your income will go up since the government will not have to withhold taxes. Also, as far as I know, the Fair Tax is the only tax reform plan that completely eliminates the tax burden for the poor since it includes a monthly prebate.

I've heard people be advocates of the flat tax as well, for similarly wholistic reasons.

Unfortunately, it will be a cold day in hell when that happens. I'm not supporting the current tax system....but there's WAY too much invested in it for anyone in government to want to change it for shit.

Lets take the AMT (Alternative Minimum Tax)....It's *not* indexed for inflation (inflational-like effects). As the cost of living goes up, the net for the Alternative Minimum Tax goes down. More people every year pay it. If you do not now, wait a few years. Without a doubt, this is the single most unfair thing in the Internal Revenue Code. The original intent of AMT was to really smack it to the upper, upper layer of truely out of this world rich...back when it was first codified. However, anyone that makes a decent living in this country and LEGALLY deducts certain things (interest on mortgage, kiddie credits, etc) has to put most of them back in when factoring AMT. Its so fucking unfair, it's not funny.

The government isn't lifting a fucking finger to change this though....even though each year, more and more people are affected. Reason? The revenues that the govt gets from AMT are HUGE. I forgot the figures....but it's so big that it literally can pay for the expenses of one mid-large sized govt agency.


I know some people feel there's a need for reform....but until anyone can stop the spending by this government, the reform aint going to happen....and shouldn't! And this is where I disagree with republicans/conservatives. The right-wing aproach is to cut the tax...and sit on their hands when trying to cut the spending. The democrat will increase the spending and raise taxes to justify. Thats why Clinton's administration had a balanced budget....and that shit went right out the window when El Jorge got into orafice...

[RedWingFan]

Now that's something I don't know about, but I can guarantee you that the rich will find a way to avoid paying taxes on the personal jet by calling it corporate.

Under the Fair Tax, ALL goods and services would be taxed when purchased. No exemptions.

So, if this wheeler-dealer CEO buy himself a jet and hides it as a corporate purchase and the employees end up footing the bill, that's fair?

What he is saying is there would be no corporate exemption!
The only way to achieve fairness is for the government to take over everything and dole out misery evenly through socialism. You think we should all be given the exact same allowance by daddy government? Issued the exact same 13 sq. meter per person dwelling, drive government issued vehicles?

[strangegrey]

I know this is going to come as a huge shock Frank so I hope you're sitting down. I don't disagreee with anything you said.

We've turned a page!

[Rhiannon]

Oh I want to jump in here and say something...

Must refrain, must refrain, look the other way...

Liberals eat kittens! Hillary Clinton is a self-loathing, dried-up, old hag! I drive an SUV!

...

[ohsherrie]

I know this is going to come as a huge shock Frank so I hope you're sitting down. I don't disagreee with anything you said.

We've turned a page!

Yes and if we can find a common ground all should be right with the rest of the world. But alas, .

[tj]

Oh I want to jump in here and say something...

Must refrain, must refrain, look the other way...

Liberals eat kittens! Hillary Clinton is a self-loathing, dried-up, old hag! I drive an SUV!

...

1.Ymm. 2.But she supports driver's licenses for illegal aliens, no wait she doesn't, no wait she does, no that's not what she said.... 3.How do you afford the gas?

[Skylorde]

Oh I want to jump in here and say something...

Must refrain, must refrain, look the other way...

This is pretty civil, compared to some past discussions. Please jump in

[conversationpc]

What he is saying is there would be no corporate exemption!
The only way to achieve fairness is for the government to take over everything and dole out misery evenly through socialism. You think we should all be given the exact same allowance by daddy government? Issued the exact same 13 sq. meter per person dwelling, drive government issued vehicles?

Exactly. All goods and services are taxed at the POS and EVERYONE pays them.

[conversationpc]

I've heard people be advocates of the flat tax as well, for similarly wholistic reasons.

The flat tax is a crock, in my opinion. Better than what we have now? Perhaps, but not by much.

Unfortunately, it will be a cold day in hell when that happens. I'm not supporting the current tax system....but there's WAY too much invested in it for anyone in government to want to change it for shit.

It would be the biggest transfer of power from politicians to the people, probably in the history of the country. It would also likely eliminate most lobbying.

[ohsherrie]

....but until anyone can stop the spending by this government, the reform aint going to happen....and shouldn't! And this is where I disagree with republicans/conservatives. The right-wing aproach is to cut the tax...and sit on their hands when trying to cut the spending.

But this Rep admin didn't cut spending. The spending has gone through the Capitol dome. It's all hidden in the war spending, but that's as much bullshit as the supposed justification for the war.

The democrat will increase the spending and raise taxes to justify. Thats why Clinton's administration had a balanced budget....and that shit went right out the window when El Jorge got into orafice...

What the Clinton admin spent was to the benefit of the American people. What Bush is spending is going to his personal war that American kids are dying for it while the budget deficit grows.

[conversationpc]

But this Rep admin didn't cut spending. The spending has gone through the Capitol dome. It's all hidden in the war spending, but that's as much bullshit as the supposed justification for the war.

This administration, in reference to spending, isn't a true representation of conservative values, either.

What the Clinton admin spent was to the benefit of the American people.

Do you REALLY believe that? If so, you are sadly deluded.

[Skylorde]

What the Clinton admin spent was to the benefit of the American people.

I suppose if you call gutting the military down to the equivelant of an anorexic aids-riddled crack whore a "benefit" to all Americans, then I guess you'd be right!

[Marc S]

Oh I want to jump in here and say something...

Must refrain, must refrain, look the other way...

No, do it, do it, you know you want to...

[ohsherrie]

But this Rep admin didn't cut spending. The spending has gone through the Capitol dome. It's all hidden in the war spending, but that's as much bullshit as the supposed justification for the war.

This administration, in reference to spending, isn't a true representation of conservative values, either.

This shit of labelling everyone who votes Rep as conservative and everyone who votes Dem as liberal is a good example of how the spin that the parties use has unfairly catagorized the voters and polarized the country.

I'm either as much a victim, or as much to blame, which I'm sure is the case for most of us, because I tend to think of anyone who votes Rep to be one of two things, either a gun toting, bible thumper, or a rich asshole who doesn't give a shit about anyone or anything but his bottom line.

What the Clinton admin spent was to the benefit of the American people.

Do you REALLY believe that? If so, you are sadly deluded.

I didn't monitor every dime he spent but I know that the working people, who are my biggest concern, were much better off when he was in office. He was a real person who came from real people. He understood having to scrape and save. Bush has no earthly idea about having to work for a living. He's totally clueless about the reality of the havoc his economic policies are wreaking.

[ohsherrie]

What the Clinton admin spent was to the benefit of the American people.

I suppose if you call gutting the military down to the equivelant of an anorexic aids-riddled crack whore a "benefit" to all Americans, then I guess you'd be right!

I'm sorry Mike. I can't really respond to that. I hate everything about the military. I acknowledge that as long as we have world leaders who play chess with the lives of the people on this planet a military is necessary, but I just can't get beyond the fact that it's ultimately almost always about egos and power being disguised as religion.

However, I don't think cutting the military back would have hurt anyone if Bush hadn't started a war with Iraq that was completely about ego and oil. We could have handled Afghanistan readily if he'd left the military that we had there instead of going off on his personal tangent.

[conversationpc]

This shit of labelling everyone who votes Rep as conservative and everyone who votes Dem as liberal is a good example of how the spin that the parties use has unfairly catagorized the voters and polarized the country.

It isn't a label, it's a generalization. Big difference. A majority of people who vote consistently Republican are conservative and a majority of people who vote Democrat are liberal.

I didn't monitor every dime he spent but I know that the working people, who are my biggest concern, were much better off when he was in office. He was a real person who came from real people. He understood having to scrape and save. Bush has no earthly idea about having to work for a living. He's totally clueless about the reality of the havoc his economic policies are wreaking.

I don't buy for a minute that Clinton cared about "real people" anymore than Bush does. he may have come from humble beginnings but he was far from that as President. Clinton perpetuated the poor economic policies from Presidents before him and his fiscal legacy may end up helping us go down the crapper eventually.

[conversationpc]

I'm sorry Mike. I can't really respond to that. I hate everything about the military.

There are many good things about the military and it just astounds me every time I hear someone spout something like this.

I acknowledge that as long as we have world leaders who play chess with the lives of the people on this planet a military is necessary, but I just can't get beyond the fact that it's ultimately almost always about egos and power being disguised as religion.

Am I the only one thinking "Huh??????"

[tj]

I'm sorry Mike. I can't really respond to that. I hate everything about the military.

There are many good things about the military and it just astounds me every time I hear someone spout something like this.

I acknowledge that as long as we have world leaders who play chess with the lives of the people on this planet a military is necessary, but I just can't get beyond the fact that it's ultimately almost always about egos and power being disguised as religion.

Am I the only one thinking "Huh??????"

no.

[RedWingFan]

I'm sorry Mike. I can't really respond to that. I hate everything about the military.

There are many good things about the military and it just astounds me every time I hear someone spout something like this.

I acknowledge that as long as we have world leaders who play chess with the lives of the people on this planet a military is necessary, but I just can't get beyond the fact that it's ultimately almost always about egos and power being disguised as religion.

Am I the only one thinking "Huh??????"

no.

Makes no sense whatsoever.