What Caused The Change In Journey's Sound

[conversationpc]

It went on Neal Schon's greatest ever guitar solo which is of course on Be Good To Yourself. Those three minutes are better than the hours of unmemorable widdling he's recorded since....

Neal's best solo is on "Still They Ride".

[RedWingFan]

It went on Neal Schon's greatest ever guitar solo which is of course on Be Good To Yourself. Those three minutes are better than the hours of unmemorable widdling he's recorded since....

Neal's best solo is on "Still They Ride".

Absolutely my favorite also. Good call.

[conversationpc]

It went on Neal Schon's greatest ever guitar solo which is of course on Be Good To Yourself. Those three minutes are better than the hours of unmemorable widdling he's recorded since....

Neal's best solo is on "Still They Ride".

Absolutely my favorite also. Good call.

It's official then.

[Journey69]

as soon as cain joined the band was instantly more radio friendly and commercial.journey was more of an album oriented type band with gregg rollie.just look at all the wildly successful singles on the first journey release with cain titled escape.they had three top ten singles on that album.then came frontiers continuing in that respect.however raised on radio the sound changed drastically,i call it street talk 2.it sounds like perry second solo album if he would've made one.the guitar got neutered on ROR big time.there are no rubicons or lay it downs on raised on radio and neal was lost in the shuffle.raised on radio suffered without steve smith also.ROR is a good album.BUT it is not good compared with past journey releases.the bar was very high and they failed to reach it on that release.the last true journey album was frontiers in my opinion.raised on radio and trial by fire are both like the banished step children of journey releases.they are way more poppier and commercial and steve had a big hand in that.also there wasn't much live stuff on these two releases as far as tour support compared to other past albums.78-98 were the perry years.everything else pales in comparison within the group.......

You forgot about "Be good to yourself".. One of the best endings of a Journey song ever.... IMO But other than that..I agree..

[RedWingFan]

It went on Neal Schon's greatest ever guitar solo which is of course on Be Good To Yourself. Those three minutes are better than the hours of unmemorable widdling he's recorded since....

Neal's best solo is on "Still They Ride".

Absolutely my favorite also. Good call.

It's official then.

Pretty much. "From this day forth, let it be known....."

[Journey69]

IMO ROR ONLY sounds like an evolution of Journey BECAUSE of Perry's Street Talk. His solo CD bridges the gap between Frontiers and ROR...

I know what you mean...but this theory would be more convincing if Street Talk came after ROR. Aside from a couple of misguided tracks like Once You Love Somebody , ROR still sounds like a classic Journey album to me...whereas Street Talk is even more focused on Perry's voice and has a much more lightweight production and few of the big highs and lows that Journey used to do so well.

In hindsight ROR was probably too much of a sudden shift...but given that most of us complain the whole time that Journey are stuck in a rut and take no creative risks...ROR does at least represent a time when Journey were taking some unexpected directions.

In fact, I'd say that ROR was Journey's last truly creative and progressive work...and everything since has lamely tried to recreate a formula that Journey were tiring of even in 1984.

I disagree...Everything that made that band what it was,wasn't there.. Way too ballad heavy.. The only song on the whole album that reminded me of Journey was, Be good to yourself.. It seem like when Perry/Cain started it....without Neal and had no imput from him..That it became ballad heavy..If Neal is present,he evens things out..Look at all their new stuff..With just Cain/Schon at the helm they have be more rock orientated.. That's what I loved so much about Arrival.. Perryless that album rocked harder than the last 2..It should have been the follow up of Frontiers!

[Lerxst101]

The complete change in the band's style that happened with ROR is the worst thing that ever happened to the band, IMO.

Agreed. And we all know that Neal was very removed from that project. It was almost completely the Perry/Cain show.

IMO ROR ONLY sounds like an evolution of Journey BECAUSE of Perry's Street Talk. His solo CD bridges the gap between Frontiers and ROR...

Agree 100%. I remember putting ROR onto the turntable for the first time in college, and almost immediately thinking, "D*MN you Perry," your success on Street Talk has ruined the Journey sound. His inluence was all over that record. Plus, we lost Smitty and Ross, and that rhythm was gone....

[annie89509]

I would agree that the addition of Jon to the songwriting team took on a new dimension, pushed the band to superstar status. Still the same vocals, but the songs became more melodic, more sophisticated. Prior to '81, it was Perry/Schon as the chief songwriters, with Perry probably doing all the lyrics. Then, comes Jon to share the burden. The 3 of them made a formidable team.

However, I disagree wholeheartedly that ROR is another SP solo album--just because he happened to have produced it (and yes, he instigated the firing of Ross and Smitty during the recording of it, too). If you go back in history, the fact is Jon/Neal had already started writing for the new album while Steve was still in LA. If it sounded like Steve's singing dominates the album, so what else is new? All Journey songs--at least up to that point--are written around the vocals.

And I thought we just spent 2 pages saying how Jon's songwriting has been the biggest influence on Journey (ESCAPE on), so I would think ROR is more because of Jon, than Steve.

[jrnyman28]

However, I disagree wholeheartedly that ROR is another SP solo album--just because he happened to have produced it (and yes, he instigated the firing of Ross and Smitty during the recording of it, too).

Listen to the CD and compare it to Street Talk. It's more than "just" producing it,It was Perry's vision. But he got a lot of help from Cain who shared his vision.

If you go back in history, the fact is Jon/Neal had already started writing for the new album while Steve was still in LA.

That would be the album that got shelved. There was plenty of talk about Journey (Neal and Jon) scrapping everything they had done when Perry 'came back'.

[EightyRock]

I mentioned this in the past, but Cain is what/who forever changed Journey and softened their sound. Schon and Perry wrote most of their best up-tempo stuff. When Cain came in, it shifted the focus to him...the "new guy" and Cain was as ambitious as Perry was when he first joined the band. Remember Rolie saying Perry wanted to write the songs and was ambitious about it, while Rolie was still in the band? Perry helped rid them of their Santana-esque sound. Perry and Schon had good chemistry on their own.
When Cain entered the band, he wanted to write the songs. Perry still wanted to write the songs. So.....Cain AND Perry had to write the songs TOGETHER, in order to assert themselves. Schon continued to do what he always did....stand back, let everybody else make the decisions, bitch about it, create his guitar parts for the songs that were being written.....and collect his money.

[mikemarrs]

i think they peaked in '81.captured and escape were their two best releases to me.they were pretty much on fire during this period.i think frontiers is when they really started to commercialize with stuff like faithfully,after the fall,send her my love,etc. it was a lil too much on side one.chain reaction saved that side from being totally sappy.side two however rocked pretty hard and would be the last time schon really got to rip.after steve solo album when they did raised on radio as i said neal got vasectimized in the music.he didn't get to put any ballsy stuff into it because it was all keyboard laden stuff for the most part.i love on captured especially in certain parts like la do da and line of fire where he absolutely rips and shreds.i think he didn't get to do that much after cain joined as opposed to before....

[Brigadier]

i think they peaked in '81.captured and escape were their two best releases to me.they were pretty much on fire during this period.i think frontiers is when they really started to commercialize with stuff like faithfully,after the fall,send her my love,etc. it was a lil too much on side one.chain reaction saved that side from being totally sappy.side two however rocked pretty hard and would be the last time schon really got to rip.after steve solo album when they did raised on radio as i said neal got vasectimized in the music.he didn't get to put any ballsy stuff into it because it was all keyboard laden stuff for the most part.i love on captured especially in certain parts like la do da and line of fire where he absolutely rips and shreds.i think he didn't get to do that much after cain joined as opposed to before....

But he made up for it with Hardline.

[Invisible Cajun]

The change was caused by Columbia Records.

[Journey69]

The change was caused by Columbia Records.

Correct..They needed some radio songs to survive.. MTV and all that came into play..I saw the Heart tribute on VH1 and they said the same thing..They had to change to stay in the game.. Cain wrote as many hard songs as soft.. If you remember,Perry and Cain started making ROR without Neal's knowledge..He stated that on their VH1 special.. That's why you don't hear the guitar as much..They were using drum sets at 1st also.. Then they did TBF and it was heavy writing by Perry/Cain.. Neal lost that battle also..Then they do Arrival and Boom! Lots of guitar,the Journey sound ..or the sound we wanted was back..Augeri had Perry's style down pretty well. To me,one of their best albums.. As good as they could without Perry back in 83 and before.. No one wants soft ballads the whole album..Neal described Arrival as Escape 2000 before it came out ...He hit the nail on the head..Great album!

[scarygirl]

What caused the change in sound?

Exlax

[AeroZach]

Their sound changed after Cain joined. Before, they were more progressive and their songs were either a little more calming or a little more rockin', at least I think so. I always preferred the Perry / Schon / Valory / Smith / Rollie lineup over any incarnation of the band that would come, because of the music that was put out. And while the Cain era produced some fine material, I can't seem to enjoy it as much as the Rollie years. Call me crazy...

[scarygirl]

Their sound changed after Cain joined. Before, they were more progressive and their songs were either a little more calming or a little more rockin', at least I think so. I always preferred the Perry / Schon / Valory / Smith / Rollie lineup over any incarnation of the band that would come, because of the music that was put out. And while the Cain era produced some fine material, I can't seem to enjoy it as much as the Rollie years. Call me crazy...

I love Greg Rollie. He's a nice guy to boot. If anyone damaged the sound it was definately Cain.

[Journey69]

Their sound changed after Cain joined. Before, they were more progressive and their songs were either a little more calming or a little more rockin', at least I think so. I always preferred the Perry / Schon / Valory / Smith / Rollie lineup over any incarnation of the band that would come, because of the music that was put out. And while the Cain era produced some fine material, I can't seem to enjoy it as much as the Rollie years. Call me crazy...

AeroZach....Your crazy! J/K.. The old stuff it good..But like I stated earlier..Rollie was not fired..He left..It just so happened that the Baby's weren't together and Cain was good,so Herbie snatched him up..They needed radio hits..The 80's changed..Cain influenced that.. Every band goes through change..Every band has to change their sound. They have all done it..

[AeroZach]

Their sound changed after Cain joined. Before, they were more progressive and their songs were either a little more calming or a little more rockin', at least I think so. I always preferred the Perry / Schon / Valory / Smith / Rollie lineup over any incarnation of the band that would come, because of the music that was put out. And while the Cain era produced some fine material, I can't seem to enjoy it as much as the Rollie years. Call me crazy...

AeroZach....Your crazy! J/K.. The old stuff it good..But like I stated earlier..Rollie was not fired..He left..It just so happened that the Baby's weren't together and Cain was good,so Herbie snatched him up..They needed radio hits..The 80's changed..Cain influenced that.. Every band goes through change..Every band has to change their sound. They have all done it..

I totally understand your point. I always knew about Rollie quitting and Cain joining because of the status of the Baby's. Yes, they needed radio hits, but I still don't believe the quality of the albums was as great with Cain as Rollie. Cain albums were hit and miss to me, while I feel each Rollie album was perfect (although Departure had a couple duds).

I don't know, that's just me. In popularity, they were better off with Cain. But musically, I think it would have been better for them if Rollie hadn't quitted.

Let the stoning begin!

[Journey69]

Their sound changed after Cain joined. Before, they were more progressive and their songs were either a little more calming or a little more rockin', at least I think so. I always preferred the Perry / Schon / Valory / Smith / Rollie lineup over any incarnation of the band that would come, because of the music that was put out. And while the Cain era produced some fine material, I can't seem to enjoy it as much as the Rollie years. Call me crazy...

AeroZach....Your crazy! J/K.. The old stuff it good..But like I stated earlier..Rollie was not fired..He left..It just so happened that the Baby's weren't together and Cain was good,so Herbie snatched him up..They needed radio hits..The 80's changed..Cain influenced that.. Every band goes through change..Every band has to change their sound. They have all done it..

I totally understand your point. I always knew about Rollie quitting and Cain joining because of the status of the Baby's. Yes, they needed radio hits, but I still don't believe the quality of the albums was as great with Cain as Rollie. Cain albums were hit and miss to me, while I feel each Rollie album was perfect (although Departure had a couple duds).

I don't know, that's just me. In popularity, they were better off with Cain. But musically, I think it would have been better for them if Rollie hadn't quitted.

Let the stoning begin!

That's where to each his own comes into play.. Look at what Rollie has done with the Storm.. He writes the same type of music as cain..Its just a different time is all.. They changed to fit the times..Rollie would have done the same. Look at the songs the Baby's did with Cain.. Hardly 80's Journey music.. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it!

[AeroZach]

Their sound changed after Cain joined. Before, they were more progressive and their songs were either a little more calming or a little more rockin', at least I think so. I always preferred the Perry / Schon / Valory / Smith / Rollie lineup over any incarnation of the band that would come, because of the music that was put out. And while the Cain era produced some fine material, I can't seem to enjoy it as much as the Rollie years. Call me crazy...

AeroZach....Your crazy! J/K.. The old stuff it good..But like I stated earlier..Rollie was not fired..He left..It just so happened that the Baby's weren't together and Cain was good,so Herbie snatched him up..They needed radio hits..The 80's changed..Cain influenced that.. Every band goes through change..Every band has to change their sound. They have all done it..

I totally understand your point. I always knew about Rollie quitting and Cain joining because of the status of the Baby's. Yes, they needed radio hits, but I still don't believe the quality of the albums was as great with Cain as Rollie. Cain albums were hit and miss to me, while I feel each Rollie album was perfect (although Departure had a couple duds).

I don't know, that's just me. In popularity, they were better off with Cain. But musically, I think it would have been better for them if Rollie hadn't quitted.

Let the stoning begin!

That's where to each his own comes into play.. Look at what Rollie has done with the Storm.. He writes the same type of music as cain..Its just a different time is all.. They changed to fit the times..Rollie would have done the same. Look at the songs the Baby's did with Cain.. Hardly 80's Journey music.. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it!

Good point...never thought of that

[Journey69]

Alot of other people on here don't think about that either.. I tend to think outside the box..sometimes too far outside the box...LOL

[AeroZach]

Alot of other people on here don't think about that either.. I tend to think outside the box..sometimes too far outside the box...LOL

Haha, well. You made a damn good point and shut me up, so thinking too far outisde the box has helped, eh?

[somethingtohide]

Their sound changed after Cain joined. Before, they were more progressive and their songs were either a little more calming or a little more rockin', at least I think so. I always preferred the Perry / Schon / Valory / Smith / Rollie lineup over any incarnation of the band that would come, because of the music that was put out. And while the Cain era produced some fine material, I can't seem to enjoy it as much as the Rollie years. Call me crazy...

AeroZach....Your crazy! J/K.. The old stuff it good..But like I stated earlier..Rollie was not fired..He left..It just so happened that the Baby's weren't together and Cain was good,so Herbie snatched him up..They needed radio hits..The 80's changed..Cain influenced that.. Every band goes through change..Every band has to change their sound. They have all done it..

I totally understand your point. I always knew about Rollie quitting and Cain joining because of the status of the Baby's. Yes, they needed radio hits, but I still don't believe the quality of the albums was as great with Cain as Rollie. Cain albums were hit and miss to me, while I feel each Rollie album was perfect (although Departure had a couple duds).

I don't know, that's just me. In popularity, they were better off with Cain. But musically, I think it would have been better for them if Rollie hadn't quitted.

Let the stoning begin!

No stoning from me. I agree with you. I think the Rolie era music was more experimental and is more interesting to me.

Bring back the Hammond B3!

[annie89509]

However, I disagree wholeheartedly that ROR is another SP solo album--just because he happened to have produced it (and yes, he instigated the firing of Ross and Smitty during the recording of it, too).

Listen to the CD and compare it to Street Talk. It's more than "just" producing it,It was Perry's vision. But he got a lot of help from Cain who shared his vision.

I hope I'm doing this right, lol, I don't post very much. Dave, I am quite familiar with the 2 cds, listen to it all the time. After all, it is my favorite 2 SP/Journey records. To my ears, they do not sound the same. ST is funky, motown/soul, R&B flavor (with the exception of OhSherrie, which definitely is pop). ROR is pop and ballads (with the exception of Positive Touch, don't know what you would call this song, lol). I will say that the relentless drum machine beats is kind of distracting, took a lot of getting used to, and wonder what all the songs would have sounded like with Smitty. The word was all the songs (except 3) were scrapped and re-recorded with new musicians until Steve was happy with them. But, to me, if you can hear Neal's influence and Jon's influence, then they're Journey songs. I really like Neal's guitar playing on IBAWY, more so than the solo on BGTY.

If you go back in history, the fact is Jon/Neal had already started writing for the new album while Steve was still in LA.

That would be the album that got shelved. There was plenty of talk about Journey (Neal and Jon) scrapping everything they had done when Perry 'came back'.

\

Huh, what album that got shelved? It was SP that shelved his 2nd solo album to go back to Journey. I have read all the interview articles and have listened to all the promotional stuff around that time. The fact is Journey dangled the producer role to get him to come back, and Jon said he liked ST and started writing for the new Journey album with that in mind. Perhaps Neal didn't have that much input on ROR, but whose fault is that? If he had creative ideas, he should have made them known. It never stopped him before.

At any rate, I really like ROR, and TBF, and I don't care what everyone says, Arrival is NOT better

[scarygirl]

However, I disagree wholeheartedly that ROR is another SP solo album--just because he happened to have produced it (and yes, he instigated the firing of Ross and Smitty during the recording of it, too).

Listen to the CD and compare it to Street Talk. It's more than "just" producing it,It was Perry's vision. But he got a lot of help from Cain who shared his vision.

I hope I'm doing this right, lol, I don't post very much. Dave, I am quite familiar with the 2 cds, listen to it all the time. After all, it is my favorite 2 SP/Journey records. To my ears, they do not sound the same. ST is funky, motown/soul, R&B flavor (with the exception of OhSherrie, which definitely is pop). ROR is pop and ballads (with the exception of Positive Touch, don't know what you would call this song, lol). I will say that the relentless drum machine beats is kind of distracting, took a lot of getting used to, and wonder what all the songs would have sounded like with Smitty. The word was all the songs (except 3) were scrapped and re-recorded with new musicians until Steve was happy with them. But, to me, if you can hear Neal's influence and Jon's influence, then they're Journey songs. I really like Neal's guitar playing on IBAWY, more so than the solo on BGTY.

If you go back in history, the fact is Jon/Neal had already started writing for the new album while Steve was still in LA.

That would be the album that got shelved. There was plenty of talk about Journey (Neal and Jon) scrapping everything they had done when Perry 'came back'.

\

Huh, what album that got shelved? It was SP that shelved his 2nd solo album to go back to Journey. I have read all the interview articles and have listened to all the promotional stuff around that time. The fact is Journey dangled the producer role to get him to come back, and Jon said he liked ST and started writing for the new Journey album with that in mind. Perhaps Neal didn't have that much input on ROR, but whose fault is that? If he had creative ideas, he should have made them known. It never stopped him before.

At any rate, I really like ROR, and TBF, and I don't care what everyone says, Arrival is NOT better

They're talking about the album that would have been titled "Liberty."

[FishinMagician]

Their sound changed after Cain joined. Before, they were more progressive and their songs were either a little more calming or a little more rockin', at least I think so. I always preferred the Perry / Schon / Valory / Smith / Rollie lineup over any incarnation of the band that would come, because of the music that was put out. And while the Cain era produced some fine material, I can't seem to enjoy it as much as the Rollie years. Call me crazy...

AeroZach....Your crazy! J/K.. The old stuff it good..But like I stated earlier..Rollie was not fired..He left..It just so happened that the Baby's weren't together and Cain was good,so Herbie snatched him up..They needed radio hits..The 80's changed..Cain influenced that.. Every band goes through change..Every band has to change their sound. They have all done it..

I totally understand your point. I always knew about Rollie quitting and Cain joining because of the status of the Baby's. Yes, they needed radio hits, but I still don't believe the quality of the albums was as great with Cain as Rollie. Cain albums were hit and miss to me, while I feel each Rollie album was perfect (although Departure had a couple duds).

I don't know, that's just me. In popularity, they were better off with Cain. But musically, I think it would have been better for them if Rollie hadn't quitted.

Let the stoning begin!

No stoning from me. I agree with you. I think the Rolie era music was more experimental and is more interesting to me.

Bring back the Hammond B3!

Cain has a B3 on his laptop lol

[somethingtohide]

Their sound changed after Cain joined. Before, they were more progressive and their songs were either a little more calming or a little more rockin', at least I think so. I always preferred the Perry / Schon / Valory / Smith / Rollie lineup over any incarnation of the band that would come, because of the music that was put out. And while the Cain era produced some fine material, I can't seem to enjoy it as much as the Rollie years. Call me crazy...

AeroZach....Your crazy! J/K.. The old stuff it good..But like I stated earlier..Rollie was not fired..He left..It just so happened that the Baby's weren't together and Cain was good,so Herbie snatched him up..They needed radio hits..The 80's changed..Cain influenced that.. Every band goes through change..Every band has to change their sound. They have all done it..

I totally understand your point. I always knew about Rollie quitting and Cain joining because of the status of the Baby's. Yes, they needed radio hits, but I still don't believe the quality of the albums was as great with Cain as Rollie. Cain albums were hit and miss to me, while I feel each Rollie album was perfect (although Departure had a couple duds).

I don't know, that's just me. In popularity, they were better off with Cain. But musically, I think it would have been better for them if Rollie hadn't quitted.

Let the stoning begin!

No stoning from me. I agree with you. I think the Rolie era music was more experimental and is more interesting to me.

Bring back the Hammond B3!

Cain has a B3 on his laptop lol

Okay then...Bring back Gregg

[mikemarrs]

the best lineup....

steve perry
neal schon
ross valory
gregg rollie
steve smith

[JH'sTXfan]

the best lineup....

steve perry
neal schon
ross valory
gregg rollie
steve smith

You are so right there.