Open Letter to Neal Schon

[finalfight]

I didn't even know it existed (Arrival). Journey was out of my line of sites for a good while, but you'd think I would have heard of it.

I watched for it for a while, and remember the news about it getting leaked on Napster or something like that. I had heard the entire album months before it came out, though the sound quality sounded muffled. Imagine my disappointment when I bought the CD and it sounded the same!

But to what you were saying... I was the same way with Asia... didn't realize they'd put albums out after "Aqua", so I had a nice little surprise when I went to Best Buy and bought 3 new albums (actually, 2 new studio albums + "Archiva") at the same time!

You must have been even more distraught when you heard Generations then! It sounds like a bunch of unmastered experimental wind tunnel demos that Bob Rock discarded from the last Metallica album. It is my honest opinion that Steve Augeri phoned in his vocals on Generations and by that I mean he was literally recorded singing over a phone line with a tissue muffling the reciever for good measure!

[Saint John]

Here's a quote for ya.. read two posts up from your last.. (he problem with people like Neal is they think they are so right and are so far up their own ass they can't see daylight. So nothing will change. Please stop trying to put a square peg in a round hole!!) "WickedGail"

No venom.. what's that?

Is it venomous to tell an alcoholic that he has a problem when he won't admit it?

If you tell him his head is up his ass..yes,that is a problem! Gail is a JSS supporter..She is anti Journey now..its well known..

When was this press release given out about me and when the hell did you become my spokesperson!?! I have staff don't remember hiring you! Mr. Schon is like alot of people in this world why unlike me refuse to admit the bad decisions he has made in his life. Career wise he has made a few of them and the last one is a doozy. What he wants to be surronded by is a bunch of yes that word again ASS licking lackies. not someone with a brain

Someone just said they hadn't seen any venom towards Neal..I just simply steered them to where there was some.. You must know Neal personally and been involved in picking Arnel..I'm sure management and Cain had no say in it..

You know what this looks like to ALOT of people? That Neal and Jon after JSS set out to find someone who will sit in the corner do what he's told and only speak when spoken to. They went with a singer that they could intimidate rather than an equal. If they no longer wish to try to grow musically beter that why still be a band?[/quote]


Let me break this down for you. Your boss walks in and tells he's hired someone that is going to listen to you, make you a shitload of dough and not cause any problems. What are you going to tell him? That you think it's a bad idea? Journey has made a decision to move on. Quit the belly aching. It's too late to change their sound. They tour on the strength of the back catalog and if recent articles are any barometer of the current state of muisc, that's ALL that matters...your back catalog.

One word buddy RUSH! Just completed a kickass first leg of a tour, PLAYING ALOT OF NEW MATERIAL from the new Snakes and Arrows CD which they for Instrumental of the Year are up for a Grammy. All past the 50 year mark and still creating new viable product. It can be done!

RUSH has its original singer, buddy!!! The SAME one responsible for the back catalog. With Perry, Journey could do the same. Comprende?

[Strange Medicine]

LOL... The facts are there brother. Splitting hairs doesn't make you right. Paraphrasing doesn't make the content of my statement inaccurate. Go watch the VH1 documentary yourself and you'll see it. I'm sure you can find it on the web as a download.

You made the claim that Steve Perry was "the only" reason for Journey's success; a tall claim that you've yet to support. It's evident that he was a major reason for their success -- and yes, I can agree with the claim that he is the most important factor in Journey's success -- but "most important" does not equate to "only".

Fact:
Journey's song writing and (possibly musicianship) improved with the addition of Jon Cain.

Bingo.

These improvements led to a wider commercial success and audience. Thus undermining your very point that Perry was the only reason for Journey's success. Do you make a habit out of proving the opposition right?

Fact:
Bad English had Jon Cain, Neal Schon and Deen Castronovo as the core of their lineup. Neal and Jon were responsible for the majority of the song writing.

Actually, John Waite and Jonathan Cain were the primary lyricists. Another example that vocals =/= success. Because if you want to get very technical, Bad English yielded a number one hit -- something Journey has never achieved (and the song wasn't even written by Jonathan Cain, John Waite, or Neal Schon). However, if we use your logic, Waite > Perry (when he clearly isn't).

Fact:
Bad English's second album barely sold and didn't have a single hit (although I like the album, I rarely play it and radio certainly doesn't play their "hit" very often if ever). Nobody cared.

Fact: The date was 1991, Bad English had disbanded shortly before the release of the second album (ie: no tour), and that vein of hair metal was dead.

Fact:
Years later, Journey sold close to a million copies of Trial By Fire without a tour and had a couple of hit singles play on the radio.

They were a legendary band (typically major reunions get a lot of coverage; Led Zeppelin, Van Halen, Genesis, ect), hadn't released an album in ten years, and the music had changed.

Fact:
Arrival barely sold 300,000 copies and barely got any airplay, turning Journey into a touring nostalgia band living off the Perry fronted Greatest Hits every since.

Fact: Arrival bootlegs had been surfacing onto the internet much prior to the official release.

MOST IMPORTANT FACT:
Journey was on the verge of being DROPPED by their record label when Perry was brought into the band. This FACT supports my "paraphrasing", wouldn't you say?

How are those facts for you?

These "facts" are out of context and insufficient. You made the claim Perry was the singular reason for Journey's success, and in the very first section of your diatribe, you fucked yourself. Raise your game or get off the court. When you prove that he was the only reason, you let me know.

[Saint John]

Advantage, Strange Medicine. However, I disagree with both of you fuckers on one thing. Journey's music did NOT improve with the addition of Jonathon Cain. It changed...changed into a more radio friendly direction, but it didn't "improve." Improved their chances of having hit singles maybe, but it didn't improve. Greg Rolie is at least as good as Cain on the keys. The man has made some memorable music. Music much deeper than the key parts in Separate Ways and Who's Crying Now.

[Strange Medicine]

I enjoy both Rolie and Cain. Specifically, I enjoy Rolie's singing collaborations with Perry. I'll be honest - I think the rumored reunion of Perry, Schon, Cain, Rolie, Smith, and Valory would have been the ultimate incarnation of Journey (though I'll be honest - Deen's the reason Journey's backing vocals are as strong as they are today). Rolie's at least as good as Cain on the keys (though his musicianship in the Storm was insulting, I think he was trying to emulate Cain in the prioritizing of hits over music) and has the better voice. However, Cain is clearly the more diverse musician and the talk of replacing Cain with Rolie isn't appreciated by me. "Stone In Love" with Rolie on keys instead of Cain on rhythm guitar? The thought makes me want to puke.

[Journey69]

Here's a quote for ya.. read two posts up from your last.. (he problem with people like Neal is they think they are so right and are so far up their own ass they can't see daylight. So nothing will change. Please stop trying to put a square peg in a round hole!!) "WickedGail"

No venom.. what's that?

Is it venomous to tell an alcoholic that he has a problem when he won't admit it?

If you tell him his head is up his ass..yes,that is a problem! Gail is a JSS supporter..She is anti Journey now..its well known..

When was this press release given out about me and when the hell did you become my spokesperson!?! I have staff don't remember hiring you! Mr. Schon is like alot of people in this world why unlike me refuse to admit the bad decisions he has made in his life. Career wise he has made a few of them and the last one is a doozy. What he wants to be surronded by is a bunch of yes that word again ASS licking lackies. not someone with a brain

Someone just said they hadn't seen any venom towards Neal..I just simply steered them to where there was some.. You must know Neal personally and been involved in picking Arnel..I'm sure management and Cain had no say in it..

You know what this looks like to ALOT of people? That Neal and Jon after JSS set out to find someone who will sit in the corner do what he's told and only speak when spoken to. They went with a singer that they could intimidate rather than an equal. If they no longer wish to try to grow musically beter that why still be a band?[/quote]


Let me break this down for you. Your boss walks in and tells he's hired someone that is going to listen to you, make you a shitload of dough and not cause any problems. What are you going to tell him? That you think it's a bad idea? Journey has made a decision to move on. Quit the belly aching. It's too late to change their sound. They tour on the strength of the back catalog and if recent articles are any barometer of the current state of muisc, that's ALL that matters...your back catalog.

One word buddy RUSH! Just completed a kickass first leg of a tour, PLAYING ALOT OF NEW MATERIAL from the new Snakes and Arrows CD which they for Instrumental of the Year are up for a Grammy. All past the 50 year mark and still creating new viable product. It can be done!

Did their lead singer bail on them..or is it the same guy? Perry left Journey all on his own.. What does this have to do with Rush?

[STORY_TELLER]

Explain to me how, only when Jonathan Cain entered the picture, did the world want to listen to Journey's music.

Errr.. it was because of Steve Perry's vocals - period. If it weren't, then show me the platinum-selling albums that Journey produced without Steve Perry's vocals on them.

Err... it clearly wasn't because of Steve Perry's vocals (only) - period. Aside from Street Talk, which was produced during Journey's greatest commercial peak, show me a massively successful solo album from Mr. Perry. You seem to define "success" with "sales". Numbers don't lie. Compare the sales from Steve Perry's Greatest Hits to Journey's Greatest Hits and note the enormous disparity -- ergo, we can conclude beyond a shadow of a doubt that if Perry is the end all be end all to Journey's success, the man clearly would have rivaled them in terms of sales and success in his solo efforts.

But he didn't.

Ergo, I win. You lose.

No, you didn't win anything. You're now arguing two different points and have gone off on a tangent from your original statement to try and circumvent facts which disprove your hypothesis.

Most people agree that Perry solo isn't as good as Perry with Journey. Neal needs Perry the same way Perry needs Neal. They created a unique sound and style of music together. What you said above is not your original argument. You were of the mind that Journey would have been a success without Perry and/or would continue to be a success after Perry. That's simply not true and the band members themselves disagree with you. Jon and Neal didn't try to continue the band Journey for almost 10 years, hoping Perry would return. They made public statements at the end of the ROR tour such as "we would have liked to continue, but we knew who had the keys to that cadillac" in reference to Perry (do a search, look it up). They know their chances of returning to their heyday are slim to none (leaning toward none). During their last tour with Augeri, at a concert I was at, when they tried to play some Generations songs and people were getting up to go get a beer, Neal said over the mic, "all right, we know what you came to hear" and went into a Perry era GH's track.

Ignoring a fact doesn't make you right. It just shows how being right is more important to you than getting to the truth of the issue being discussed.

[Journey69]

Strange Medicine.. You continue to impress! You are correct and SJ is correct also.. Diane Warren is the woman behind "When I see you smile" She is also the one behind Hardline's "Hot Cherrie" GOD,love that song..Hardline was the shit! Also..SM.. refreshing seeing you use the F word.. Keep it up!!

[Journey69]

Explain to me how, only when Jonathan Cain entered the picture, did the world want to listen to Journey's music.

Errr.. it was because of Steve Perry's vocals - period. If it weren't, then show me the platinum-selling albums that Journey produced without Steve Perry's vocals on them.

Err... it clearly wasn't because of Steve Perry's vocals (only) - period. Aside from Street Talk, which was produced during Journey's greatest commercial peak, show me a massively successful solo album from Mr. Perry. You seem to define "success" with "sales". Numbers don't lie. Compare the sales from Steve Perry's Greatest Hits to Journey's Greatest Hits and note the enormous disparity -- ergo, we can conclude beyond a shadow of a doubt that if Perry is the end all be end all to Journey's success, the man clearly would have rivaled them in terms of sales and success in his solo efforts.

But he didn't.

Ergo, I win. You lose.

No, you didn't win anything. You're now arguing two different points and have gone off on a tangent from your original statement to try and circumvent facts which disprove your hypothesis.

Most people agree that Perry solo isn't as good as Perry with Journey. Neal needs Perry the same way Perry needs Neal. They created a unique sound and style of music together. What you said above is not your original argument. You were of the mind that Journey would have been a success without Perry and/or would continue to be a success after Perry. That's simply not true and the band members themselves disagree with you. Jon and Neal didn't try to continue the band Journey for almost 10 years, hoping Perry would return. They made public statements at the end of the ROR tour such as "we would have liked to continue, but we knew who had the keys to that cadillac" in reference to Perry (do a search, look it up). They know their chances of returning to their heyday are slim to none (leaning toward none). During their last tour with Augeri, at a concert I was at, when they tried to play some Generations songs and people were getting up to go get a beer, Neal said over the mic, "all right, we know what you came to hear" and went into a Perry era GH's track.

Ignoring a fact doesn't make you right. It just shows how being right is more important to you than getting to the truth of the issue being discussed.

Let me get this straight.. What if Steve Perry was never in the band..You said they wouldn't have had success.. What if they found Brad Delp instead? Think they would have still sucked? Strange Medicine..YOu do win!!

[STORY_TELLER]

Strange Medicine,
Just read your response to my earlier "fact" post. I could go on and reverse everything you wrote, but it would be a pointless wasted time.

It's pretty clear from your posts you're more interested in not being wrong than having an honest debate. I say honest because an honest person would admit when they're wrong about something and turn around and agree when a fact has been presented, rather than use weak defenses such as honing in on words like "paraphrasing" and "gist" when you know full well that the other person has proved their larger point. Politicians do this all the time. It's called spinning a statement. You fall back on arguing semantics to get out of being proven wrong. I have no interest in a back and forth argument with a person like that. I have better things to do with my time and it is in fact time consuming to type all this stuff up.

Good luck to you.

[FishinMagician]

It seems as though Neal Schon is quite the Web surfer, having spent hours on YouTube trying to find a new Steve Perry impersonator. I doubt that Neal gets on this forum, but just in case he does, I wanted to write something to him to let him know how I feel. Here goes:

Neal,

I'm sorry Neal, but Steve Perry was Journey. You are as much Journey as Elvis' lead guitarist was Elvis. You are not an Eddie Van Halen, Neal. If you were, you would have found a Sammy Hagar by now and changed the course of Journey to a different sound. However, Journey was never popular before Steve Perry joined the band. We will never know if Journey could be popular without Steve Perry until you find someone to sing who is not trying to emulate Steve Perry. You had your chance to do that last year with JSS, but you blew it.

Now you have hired another Steve Perry impersonator. All the while you expect Journey fans to put Steve Perry out of their minds and allow the new singer to have his own identity. You have even stated publicly that Steve Perry is re-releasing old Journey material just so that people will remember him. WTF? Don't you think you are doing the same by hiring another Perry impersonator? Did you hire Arnel to emulate the Steve Perry material so that people can forget about Steve Perry?

What you are doing Neal is no different than if the lead guitarist for Elvis' band would have hired an Elvis impersonator and asked fans to forget about Elvis. No new albums are going to make people forget about Steve Perry, Neal. As long as you guys are touring as Journey with a Steve Perry impersonator, you are leading a Journey cover band at best. Until you do what Eddie Van Halen did and find a singer to give Journey a completely different sound, you guys are basically just a glorified mobile karaoke service.

Good luck Neal.

I would've agreed with this post in 1988, but can't do so now. Times have changed. Journey, through the years, has become more and more Steve Perry's Journey because they didn't change their singer and musical direction. It's simply too late now. 90% of their audience wants to hear ONLY the back catalog...and they know this. I'll end with this. Neal Schon has recieved more "open letters" than fucking Santa Claus in the last few years. Perry stopped in 83...not Neal's fault. He stopped in 86...not Neal's fault. Management and the band waited for Perry, fearing a HUGE backlash and potential rejection from their fans...probably a bad decision. Perry made them wait til 96...not Neal's fault. Perry made them wait til 98...not Neal's fault. Perry gave them no answer or time table for his "hip" problem...not Neal's fault. Neal gets ripped for waiting too long in 87 and for waiting to little in 98. It can't be both ways. It's right in front of your eyes, folks. Steve Perry systematically destroyed this band starting in 1986. QUIT FUCKING BLAMING NEAL!!!

That is because most people can't accept that their beloved SP is partially, or mostly, to blame

[Strange Medicine]

No, you didn't win anything.

It is as plain as day that denial is your defense mechanism. You made the claim: "And I'm sorry, but Perry is the only reason for Journey's success." You've yet to provide a ghost of a shred of evidence to support it. The only thing you've done in your multiple diatribes is prove two things: a.) you're an ass (the mocking of my "youth") who likes to make claims without supporting them and b.) you have a tendancy to fuck your own argument. You fail. I win. Get over it.

You're now arguing two different points and have gone off on a tangent from your original statement to try and circumvent facts which disprove your hypothesis.

Incorrect. I've made a single argument and continue to drive it home. There have been no tangents and no misdirection on my behalf. I see you're a fan of delusion as well.

Most people agree that Perry solo isn't as good as Perry with Journey.

And yet you said: "And I'm sorry, but Perry is the only reason for Journey's success."

So clearly, if he were the only reason, he'd be able to recreate that success without Journey (who clearly have done nothing to facilitate this success, in your mind). Yet he hasn't. You lose.

The rest is all bullshit and irrelevant. You made the claim. You've yet to back it up. Get on it, hotshot.

Ignoring a fact doesn't make you right. It just shows how being right is more important to you than getting to the truth of the issue being discussed.

It seems to be the general consensus that I'm right and you're wrong. You made the mistake of coming off like a patronizing, condescending ass, thus forcing me to give it back. Congratulations: you just got your virtual ass kicked by a sixteen year old. How does it feel, sport? You'll be the laughing stock of the nursing home.


Addendum:

Just read your response to my earlier "fact" post. I could go on and reverse everything you wrote, but it would be a pointless wasted time.

So you could prove me wrong but you don't want to? Hell, it's not like you've been doing any real work. Example: "Blah blah blah - Neal said this - I dont have teh source u have to look it up fer yrself". Apparently, being the award-winning debater you are (who has the nerve to criticize me), you haven't familiarized yourself with the burden of proof clause. You made the claim. You've yet to fill it. Technically, I didn't have to "disprove you" at all. All I would have to do is make you provide proof. I was being generous.

[STORY_TELLER]

Explain to me how, only when Jonathan Cain entered the picture, did the world want to listen to Journey's music.

Errr.. it was because of Steve Perry's vocals - period. If it weren't, then show me the platinum-selling albums that Journey produced without Steve Perry's vocals on them.

Err... it clearly wasn't because of Steve Perry's vocals (only) - period. Aside from Street Talk, which was produced during Journey's greatest commercial peak, show me a massively successful solo album from Mr. Perry. You seem to define "success" with "sales". Numbers don't lie. Compare the sales from Steve Perry's Greatest Hits to Journey's Greatest Hits and note the enormous disparity -- ergo, we can conclude beyond a shadow of a doubt that if Perry is the end all be end all to Journey's success, the man clearly would have rivaled them in terms of sales and success in his solo efforts.

But he didn't.

Ergo, I win. You lose.

No, you didn't win anything. You're now arguing two different points and have gone off on a tangent from your original statement to try and circumvent facts which disprove your hypothesis.

Most people agree that Perry solo isn't as good as Perry with Journey. Neal needs Perry the same way Perry needs Neal. They created a unique sound and style of music together. What you said above is not your original argument. You were of the mind that Journey would have been a success without Perry and/or would continue to be a success after Perry. That's simply not true and the band members themselves disagree with you. Jon and Neal didn't try to continue the band Journey for almost 10 years, hoping Perry would return. They made public statements at the end of the ROR tour such as "we would have liked to continue, but we knew who had the keys to that cadillac" in reference to Perry (do a search, look it up). They know their chances of returning to their heyday are slim to none (leaning toward none). During their last tour with Augeri, at a concert I was at, when they tried to play some Generations songs and people were getting up to go get a beer, Neal said over the mic, "all right, we know what you came to hear" and went into a Perry era GH's track.

Ignoring a fact doesn't make you right. It just shows how being right is more important to you than getting to the truth of the issue being discussed.

Let me get this straight.. What if Steve Perry was never in the band..You said they wouldn't have had success.. What if they found Brad Delp instead? Think they would have still sucked? Strange Medicine..YOu do win!!

This is the last time I'll address this because it really is time consuming:
First of all, how do you know what the musical collaboration with Brad Delp or anyone else for that matter would have sounded like? Talk about speculation!

You're forgetting that Perry was not just a voice but a major influence on the melodies and song writing. Fact is, Journey was very close to being dropped by their record label after being fronted by Gregg Rollie, a proven hit making singer with Santana and they made no waves whatsoever with Fleishman at the helm, someone who both Gregg and Neal chose as their frontman. The songs Fleishman sang were covered and reworked by Perry and only after Perry was involved did they become popular. So explain that one to me.

I'm done guys, you clearly have your position, but you're forgetting Journey was almost canned by their record label before Perry joined. Whatever Journey does from this point forward will have been built upon and will ride the success which involved and was hugely influenced by Perry. You can argue all the speculative nonsense in the world but that doesn't change history.

[Saint John]

Respect your elders, fucker.

[Strange Medicine]

Respect your elders, fucker.

No, master! Don't beat me with the cane!

[Journey69]

Explain to me how, only when Jonathan Cain entered the picture, did the world want to listen to Journey's music.

Errr.. it was because of Steve Perry's vocals - period. If it weren't, then show me the platinum-selling albums that Journey produced without Steve Perry's vocals on them.

Err... it clearly wasn't because of Steve Perry's vocals (only) - period. Aside from Street Talk, which was produced during Journey's greatest commercial peak, show me a massively successful solo album from Mr. Perry. You seem to define "success" with "sales". Numbers don't lie. Compare the sales from Steve Perry's Greatest Hits to Journey's Greatest Hits and note the enormous disparity -- ergo, we can conclude beyond a shadow of a doubt that if Perry is the end all be end all to Journey's success, the man clearly would have rivaled them in terms of sales and success in his solo efforts.

But he didn't.

Ergo, I win. You lose.

No, you didn't win anything. You're now arguing two different points and have gone off on a tangent from your original statement to try and circumvent facts which disprove your hypothesis.

Most people agree that Perry solo isn't as good as Perry with Journey. Neal needs Perry the same way Perry needs Neal. They created a unique sound and style of music together. What you said above is not your original argument. You were of the mind that Journey would have been a success without Perry and/or would continue to be a success after Perry. That's simply not true and the band members themselves disagree with you. Jon and Neal didn't try to continue the band Journey for almost 10 years, hoping Perry would return. They made public statements at the end of the ROR tour such as "we would have liked to continue, but we knew who had the keys to that cadillac" in reference to Perry (do a search, look it up). They know their chances of returning to their heyday are slim to none (leaning toward none). During their last tour with Augeri, at a concert I was at, when they tried to play some Generations songs and people were getting up to go get a beer, Neal said over the mic, "all right, we know what you came to hear" and went into a Perry era GH's track.

Ignoring a fact doesn't make you right. It just shows how being right is more important to you than getting to the truth of the issue being discussed.

Let me get this straight.. What if Steve Perry was never in the band..You said they wouldn't have had success.. What if they found Brad Delp instead? Think they would have still sucked? Strange Medicine..YOu do win!!

This is the last time I'll address this because it really is time consuming:
First of all, how do you know what the musical collaboration with Brad Delp or anyone else for that matter would have sounded like? Talk about speculation!

You're forgetting that Perry was not just a voice but a major influence on the melodies and song writing. Fact is, Journey was very close to being dropped by their record label after being fronted by Gregg Rollie, a proven hit making singer with Santana and they made no waves whatsoever with Fleishman at the helm, someone who both Gregg and Neal chose as their frontman. The songs Fleishman sang were covered and reworked by Perry and only after Perry was involved did they become popular. So explain that one to me.

I'm done guys, you clearly have your position, but you're forgetting Journey was almost canned by their record label before Perry joined. Whatever Journey does from this point forward will have been built upon and will ride the success which involved and was hugely influenced by Perry. You can argue all the speculative nonsense in the world but that doesn't change history.

Brad Delp had the very same role Perry did.. He is almost Perry's mirror or twin in reguards of what people think of his voice.. Journey would have still flourished..As would Boston if they had Perry..

[Journey69]

Respect your elders, fucker.

Classic SJ !!

[STORY_TELLER]

No, you didn't win anything.

It is as plain as day that denial is your defense mechanism. You made the claim: "And I'm sorry, but Perry is the only reason for Journey's success." You've yet to provide a ghost of a shred of evidence to support it. The only thing you've done in your multiple diatribes is prove two things: a.) you're an ass (the mocking of my "youth") who likes to make claims without supporting them and b.) you have a tendancy to fuck your own argument. You fail. I win. Get over it.

What the hell are you talking about? I supported my claim with simple math. It's not my fault you are ignoring it. Add up the following:

1: Journey was about to be dropped by their record label. Their albums weren't selling. Attendance to their tours were poor and dropping steadily. They were about to go out.

2: Herbie decided to hire a lead singer to replace Fleishman.

3: Perry was that replacement. Suddenly, attendance is up, the songs got airplay, the records started selling.

By your argument, you're saying anyone could have fronted Journey besides fleishman and Journey would have become successful. Really? You really believe this? Honestly, this is simply tiresome. You have the benefit of hindsight looking at journey who's song catalogue are considered Evergreen. That is, they continue to sell years after the band's popularity has ended (ie. Led Zeppelin). If you think that is such an easy thing to achieve and had nothing to do with Perry and would have happened without him, well, sorry, you're simply fooling yourself.

I haven't looked for the links to all the quotes I've stated because i don't have the time. Fact is they're common knowledge and resorting to insults is in fact a sign of youth. I brought up the youth statement because you yourself said "it might be my youth". You took it as an attack and are clearly now NEVER going to give up until you argue split hairs and semantics into the ground.

I'm done with you kid. And yes, you have shown yourself to be a kid. (oh yeah, I'm not that old by the way, you just happen to be much younger)

[STORY_TELLER]

Explain to me how, only when Jonathan Cain entered the picture, did the world want to listen to Journey's music.

Errr.. it was because of Steve Perry's vocals - period. If it weren't, then show me the platinum-selling albums that Journey produced without Steve Perry's vocals on them.

Err... it clearly wasn't because of Steve Perry's vocals (only) - period. Aside from Street Talk, which was produced during Journey's greatest commercial peak, show me a massively successful solo album from Mr. Perry. You seem to define "success" with "sales". Numbers don't lie. Compare the sales from Steve Perry's Greatest Hits to Journey's Greatest Hits and note the enormous disparity -- ergo, we can conclude beyond a shadow of a doubt that if Perry is the end all be end all to Journey's success, the man clearly would have rivaled them in terms of sales and success in his solo efforts.

But he didn't.

Ergo, I win. You lose.

No, you didn't win anything. You're now arguing two different points and have gone off on a tangent from your original statement to try and circumvent facts which disprove your hypothesis.

Most people agree that Perry solo isn't as good as Perry with Journey. Neal needs Perry the same way Perry needs Neal. They created a unique sound and style of music together. What you said above is not your original argument. You were of the mind that Journey would have been a success without Perry and/or would continue to be a success after Perry. That's simply not true and the band members themselves disagree with you. Jon and Neal didn't try to continue the band Journey for almost 10 years, hoping Perry would return. They made public statements at the end of the ROR tour such as "we would have liked to continue, but we knew who had the keys to that cadillac" in reference to Perry (do a search, look it up). They know their chances of returning to their heyday are slim to none (leaning toward none). During their last tour with Augeri, at a concert I was at, when they tried to play some Generations songs and people were getting up to go get a beer, Neal said over the mic, "all right, we know what you came to hear" and went into a Perry era GH's track.

Ignoring a fact doesn't make you right. It just shows how being right is more important to you than getting to the truth of the issue being discussed.

Let me get this straight.. What if Steve Perry was never in the band..You said they wouldn't have had success.. What if they found Brad Delp instead? Think they would have still sucked? Strange Medicine..YOu do win!!

This is the last time I'll address this because it really is time consuming:
First of all, how do you know what the musical collaboration with Brad Delp or anyone else for that matter would have sounded like? Talk about speculation!

You're forgetting that Perry was not just a voice but a major influence on the melodies and song writing. Fact is, Journey was very close to being dropped by their record label after being fronted by Gregg Rollie, a proven hit making singer with Santana and they made no waves whatsoever with Fleishman at the helm, someone who both Gregg and Neal chose as their frontman. The songs Fleishman sang were covered and reworked by Perry and only after Perry was involved did they become popular. So explain that one to me.

I'm done guys, you clearly have your position, but you're forgetting Journey was almost canned by their record label before Perry joined. Whatever Journey does from this point forward will have been built upon and will ride the success which involved and was hugely influenced by Perry. You can argue all the speculative nonsense in the world but that doesn't change history.

Brad Delp had the very same role Perry did.. He is almost Perry's mirror or twin in reguards of what people think of his voice.. Journey would have still flourished..As would Boston if they had Perry..

Are you out of your mind? Did you forget how much song writing and melody creation Perry was involved in? He steered the entire creative direction of the group while he was lead singer and both Neal and Jon are on record as saying this themselves. Jesus christ guys, go watch the VH1 behind the music special!! Everything I've said is backed up by Neal Jon and Herbie out of their own freakin' mouths! Jesus you guys are nuts! lol....

[Strange Medicine]

Grandpa, you crack me up. Aside from your lackluster debating capability, you're a walking contradiction. You see, just a few posts ago, you said this:

It's pretty clear from your posts you're more interested in not being wrong than having an honest debate.

But then, you say this:

I could go on and reverse everything you wrote, but it would be a pointless wasted time.

...And then later, in the same post, you say this:

I have better things to do with my time and it is in fact time consuming to type all this stuff up.

Good luck to you.

Now, assuming your age hasn't befuddled your limited intelligence, do I need to walk through and explain how you -- for what? The third? Fourth time? -- fucked yourself by making contradictions that make you look like an ass? So, in the end, who is more concerned about "not being wrong". You? Or me?

[AR]

Dear Neal,

You are a midget who can't keep it in his pants. Fuck you.

Try calling Jeff and acting like a man. You are a short little dwarf.

Nice job on the "new" Journey. Can't wait to see you all at the local karoake bar.

Jeremey chose his family over you idiots. Wise choice.

Thanks,

AR

[Lori Jo]

The addition of Arnel as a vocalist makes sound practical and business sense as his inclusion once again makes inroads into a huge target audience in the East. This maybe even more profitable to Journey than the domestic market at this time and certainly will help bring the name to prominence on a worldwide scale once again.

Personally I feel the band should be congratulated for hiring Arnel as lead singer. They appear to be breaking new ground and in some small sense are helping to open the gates of acceptance by following their heads and simply choosing the person most qualified for the job given the criteria required and the legacy they wish to maintain.

Indeed. Journey is a business. This is what Neal and Co. do for a living, it is their career, their source of income, their livelihood, it pays their bills. I think too many people forget this. Most businesses don't choose to shut down shop just because the CEO or the district manager or HR Director resigns. (Is this what you would want your own employer to do??) They hire new employees to fill the vacancy and continue to provide their service or product or expertise to their customers. Those customers can choose to continue buying or go buy someplace else, purchase someone else's product or service. A business also reserves the right to let employees go when they deem necessary. Journey is a BUSINESS.

[AR]

The addition of Arnel as a vocalist makes sound practical and business sense as his inclusion once again makes inroads into a huge target audience in the East. This maybe even more profitable to Journey than the domestic market at this time and certainly will help bring the name to prominence on a worldwide scale once again.

Personally I feel the band should be congratulated for hiring Arnel as lead singer. They appear to be breaking new ground and in some small sense are helping to open the gates of acceptance by following their heads and simply choosing the person most qualified for the job given the criteria required and the legacy they wish to maintain.

Indeed. Journey is a business. This is what Neal and Co. do for a living, it is their career, their source of income, their livelihood, it pays their bills. I think too many people forget this. Most businesses don't choose to shut down shop just because the CEO or the district manager or HR Director resigns. (Is this what you would want your own employer to do??) They hire new employees to fill the vacancy and continue to provide their service or product or expertise to their customers. Those customers can choose to continue buying or go buy someplace else, purchase someone else's product or service. A business also reserves the right to let employees go when they deem necessary. Journey is a BUSINESS.

Hi Susie

[conversationpc]

I watched for it for a while, and remember the news about it getting leaked on Napster or something like that. I had heard the entire album months before it came out, though the sound quality sounded muffled. Imagine my disappointment when I bought the CD and it sounded the same!

I've never heard anyone say that the sound quality on "Arrival" was muffled or even bad, for that matter. "Red 13" and "Generations"? Yes, but not "Arrival".

[Lori Jo]

Hi Susie

Don't want to dissapoint anyone but I'm not Susie and I use my real name for my screen name. I don't hide behind a made up screen name unless my real name isn't available, already taken.

[STORY_TELLER]

Grandpa, you crack me up. Aside from your lackluster debating capability, you're a walking contradiction. You see, just a few posts ago, you said this:

It's pretty clear from your posts you're more interested in not being wrong than having an honest debate.

But then, you say this:

I could go on and reverse everything you wrote, but it would be a pointless wasted time.

...And then later, in the same post, you say this:

I have better things to do with my time and it is in fact time consuming to type all this stuff up.

Good luck to you.

Now, assuming your age hasn't befuddled your limited intelligence, do I need to walk through and explain how you -- for what? The third? Fourth time? -- fucked yourself by making contradictions that make you look like an ass? So, in the end, who is more concerned about "not being wrong". You? Or me?

?? Where are these glaring contradictions you speak of you young whipper snapper? There's nothing contradictory about the statements at all. The thing I haven't followed through on is leaving because you're just so annoying that I have to respond from time to time.

What you need to do to find the proof of the facts I pointed out is to go and watch the VH1 behind the music documentary. I'm sorry I can't send you or post a copy for you to watch, but the facts are there. Ask someone you know and/or trust who has seen it and you will see that Neal and Jon and Herbie back up what I have stated from their own mouths. I just don't have time to do a line by line rebuttal of your nonsense. This debate is heated and my blood is pumping from too much caffeine to begin with.

What I will grant you is you have succeeded in baiting me into an argument and got me hot under the collar. For that I applaud you. Nicely played. Doesn't make your speculative points about Journey being successful if there never was a Steve Perry in the mix any more true of course. All you've proven is you can raise my blood pressure. Kids usually do that when they speak as though they have more experience than those who came before them.

[Strange Medicine]

?? Where are these glaring contradictions you speak of you young whipper snapper? There's nothing contradictory about the statements at all. The thing I haven't followed through on is leaving because you're just so annoying that I have to respond from time to time.

Grandpa, perhaps it's time to get some new spectacles. The contradictions are that you "don't have time" to debate the issue, but you do have the time to reinforce the delusion that I'm not right. Contradictions. Hell, one could make a case that you're suffering from narcissism (which would explain the delusion, denial, and the fact that you can't accept defeat when you lack the means to make a case).


Addendum: I tell you what, since this issue clearly has your panties in a wad, we'll call it quits 'til you can make a good argument (I suspect it'll be forever). Meaning I won't respond to this issue (unlike you) until you've presented your case sufficiently. Win-win situation, k?

[finalfight]

I watched for it for a while, and remember the news about it getting leaked on Napster or something like that. I had heard the entire album months before it came out, though the sound quality sounded muffled. Imagine my disappointment when I bought the CD and it sounded the same!

I've never heard anyone say that the sound quality on "Arrival" was muffled or even bad, for that matter. "Red 13" and "Generations"? Yes, but not "Arrival".

Arrival sounded very good to me. Admittedly it's not the best produced record in the world but in the words of Larry David it's "pretty good, pretty, preetty good"!

[Rhiannon]

?? Where are these glaring contradictions you speak of you young whipper snapper? There's nothing contradictory about the statements at all. The thing I haven't followed through on is leaving because you're just so annoying that I have to respond from time to time.

Grandpa, perhaps it's time to get some new spectacles. The contradictions are that you "don't have time" to debate the issue, but you do have the time to reinforce the delusion that I'm not right. Contradictions. Hell, one could make a case that you're suffering from narcissism (which would explain the delusion, denial, and the fact that you can't accept defeat when you lack the means to make a case).

Young Dude - 1
Other Dude - 0

Never argue with a younger mind.

[Arkansas]

Neal is undeniably one of the best guitarists alive, but his legacy is no more separate from Steve Perry than Joe Perry's legacy is separate from Steven Tyler.

This is a much better comparison that the Elvis argument.
Others would be...
Sambora without BonJovi, Simmons without Stanley, or Page without Plant.


later~