Question

[Strange Medicine]

Damn law always interfering! If you folks aren't in the nursing home in two years, I'll be there. You can indoctrinate me in the ways of MR.

Nursing home! Are you fucking nuts?! No way will I be in a nursing home!

I'll send you flowers.

[AR]

Damn law always interfering! If you folks aren't in the nursing home in two years, I'll be there. You can indoctrinate me in the ways of MR.

If you want - fire off any questions you have about the band or any questions you have about anything I may have posted. You can PM me or post them. I will answer them properly.

[Saint John]

Question: why do so many people seem to have this unnatural hatred for Arnel?

Lack of conscience? Loose morals? Mental instability? It could be a thousand reason my friend.

Pedro, you come on here tonight and start poking the bears and I'll come down on you like rice on beans.

[AR]

Damn law always interfering! If you folks aren't in the nursing home in two years, I'll be there. You can indoctrinate me in the ways of MR.

If you want - fire off any questions you have about the band or any questions you have about anything I may have posted. You can PM me or post them. I will answer them properly.

I can take one debate / question tonight - the rest tomorrow. Up to you.

[Strange Medicine]

AR, we'll just do it in the morning. I prefer more conversational routes. Question, answer, question, answer. Both of us on at the same time so we can elaborate and so forth.

[AR]

AR, we'll just do it in the morning. I prefer more conversational routes. Question, answer, question, answer. Both of us on at the same time so we can elaborate and so forth.

That's fine and it works for me. Afternoon though. Ask anyone here that knows me, morning is unlikely.

Talk to you tomorrow.

[Crazie Scarab]

AR, we'll just do it in the morning. I prefer more conversational routes. Question, answer, question, answer. Both of us on at the same time so we can elaborate and so forth.

That's fine and it works for me. Afternoon though. Ask anyone here that knows me, morning is unlikely.

Talk to you tomorrow.

If AR's anything like me.. he's got major wood going on in the morning and can't leave the woman alone until the afternoon.

[Clasicrockldy]

AR, we'll just do it in the morning. I prefer more conversational routes. Question, answer, question, answer. Both of us on at the same time so we can elaborate and so forth.

That's fine and it works for me. Afternoon though. Ask anyone here that knows me, morning is unlikely.

Talk to you tomorrow.

If AR's anything like me.. he's got major wood going on in the morning and can't leave the woman alone until the afternoon.

TMI, Brian!

[Arnelian]

BACKWARD COUNTRY? how about a backward maturity? demeaning anybody for no apparent reason is not a mark of a gentleman with a college degree., and using fowl language is not an idication of someone who belongs to a civilized society. so a backward country with backward society shows more class by humbleness in triumph than by showing arrogance in defeat and jealousy. anybody who beleives in that kind of philosophy ought to do some introspection.

[Saint John]

BACKWARD COUNTRY? how about a backward maturity? demeaning anybody for no apparent reason is not a mark of a gentleman with a college degree., and using fowl language is not an idication of someone who belongs to a civilized society. so a backward country with backward society shows more class by humbleness in triumph than by showing arrogance in defeat and jealousy. anybody who beleives in that kind of philosophy ought to do some introspection.

Oustanding literary skills, but what the fuck are you talking about/referring to?

[AR]

BACKWARD COUNTRY? how about a backward maturity? demeaning anybody for no apparent reason is not a mark of a gentleman with a college degree., and using fowl language is not an idication of someone who belongs to a civilized society. so a backward country with backward society shows more class by humbleness in triumph than by showing arrogance in defeat and jealousy. anybody who beleives in that kind of philosophy ought to do some introspection.

IP address on this one please. Enough.

[Crazie Scarab]

BACKWARD COUNTRY? how about a backward maturity? demeaning anybody for no apparent reason is not a mark of a gentleman with a college degree., and using fowl language is not an idication of someone who belongs to a civilized society. so a backward country with backward society shows more class by humbleness in triumph than by showing arrogance in defeat and jealousy. anybody who beleives in that kind of philosophy ought to do some introspection.

Oustanding literary skills, but what the fuck are you talking about/referring to?

I agree with you for once, Captain Brown Nose. I think he's trying to say that where he's from, they're better than the rest of us. Whatever? My cock is probably 5 inches longer than his middle finger and much wider than his girlfriends mouth can encounter!

[Arnelian]

asking the moderator for someone's IP address is highly unethical, only a backward mentality could agree.

read the responders post and maybe some may be enlightened as to what this is all about.

[Saint John]

BACKWARD COUNTRY? how about a backward maturity? demeaning anybody for no apparent reason is not a mark of a gentleman with a college degree., and using fowl language is not an idication of someone who belongs to a civilized society. so a backward country with backward society shows more class by humbleness in triumph than by showing arrogance in defeat and jealousy. anybody who beleives in that kind of philosophy ought to do some introspection.

Oustanding literary skills, but what the fuck are you talking about/referring to?

I agree with you for once, Captain Brown Nose.

Keep it up.

[Crazie Scarab]

BACKWARD COUNTRY? how about a backward maturity? demeaning anybody for no apparent reason is not a mark of a gentleman with a college degree., and using fowl language is not an idication of someone who belongs to a civilized society. so a backward country with backward society shows more class by humbleness in triumph than by showing arrogance in defeat and jealousy. anybody who beleives in that kind of philosophy ought to do some introspection.

Oustanding literary skills, but what the fuck are you talking about/referring to?

I agree with you for once, Captain Brown Nose.

Keep it up.

I only pick on those I appreciate. Trust me there!

[AR]

asking the moderator for someone's IP address is highly unethical, only a backward mentality could agree.

read the responders post and maybe some may be enlightened as to what this is all about.

Shut the fuck up, this thread was something YOU inserted YOURSELF into. No one asked YOU to be here. I was ASKED for my opinion and will discuss this with the person who asked me and asked me with courtesy. I will do my best to have a debate/discussion with someone who seems to have legit questions. Not sure why my opinion mattersng, but so be it.

Do yourself a favor and stay off my radar. I'd be happy to fuck you over. Seriously - shut up.

I hope your cat dies.

[Saint John]

BACKWARD COUNTRY? how about a backward maturity? demeaning anybody for no apparent reason is not a mark of a gentleman with a college degree., and using fowl language is not an idication of someone who belongs to a civilized society. so a backward country with backward society shows more class by humbleness in triumph than by showing arrogance in defeat and jealousy. anybody who beleives in that kind of philosophy ought to do some introspection.

Oustanding literary skills, but what the fuck are you talking about/referring to?

I agree with you for once, Captain Brown Nose.

Keep it up.

I only pick on those I appreciate. Trust me there!

You're not picking on me. Trust me on that one.

[AR]

Saint John, have you ever noticed, that I never interject myself into others threads? I make comments here and there, usually on my own.

I was asked by someone here for my opinion and some creep came in here. At least I know some shit I can use on said person. I hope it continues.

(Damn, just as stupid as I was told she/he was and obvious)

Excellent!

[Crazie Scarab]

asking the moderator for someone's IP address is highly unethical, only a backward mentality could agree.

read the responders post and maybe some may be enlightened as to what this is all about.

Hey.. Arnelian, squeeze liquid nails all over your dick, lay it on a fence post and slam it with a big hammer.

[Crazie Scarab]

Saint John, have you ever noticed, that I never interject myself into others threads? I make comments here and there, usually on my own.

I was asked by someone here for my opinion and some creep came in here. At least I know some shit I can use on said person. I hope it continues.

(Damn, just as stupid as I was told she/he was and obvious)

Excellent!

Fuck 'em... (not sj) Who the fuck cares, Ed? Too bad the little stupid shit happens all the time, eh? Life should b easier than this.

[Saint John]

Saint John, have you ever noticed, that I never interject myself into others threads? I make comments here and there, usually on my own.

I was asked by someone here for my opinion and some creep came in here. At least I know some shit I can use on said person. I hope it continues.

(Damn, just as stupid as I was told she/he was and obvious)

Excellent!

Some people are habitual line crossers. They don't know when to stop.

[Crazie Scarab]

BACKWARD COUNTRY? how about a backward maturity? demeaning anybody for no apparent reason is not a mark of a gentleman with a college degree., and using fowl language is not an idication of someone who belongs to a civilized society. so a backward country with backward society shows more class by humbleness in triumph than by showing arrogance in defeat and jealousy. anybody who beleives in that kind of philosophy ought to do some introspection.

Oustanding literary skills, but what the fuck are you talking about/referring to?

I agree with you for once, Captain Brown Nose.

Keep it up.

I only pick on those I appreciate. Trust me there!

You're not picking on me. Trust me on that one.

How do you know what I'm doing? Is your nose clogged? DAMNNNNN! That's the only way you can keep enough oxygen in to maintain vitals

[Saint John]

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[Crazie Scarab]

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Ok Dan... I'm off u. U obviously don't get funny shit. So, I'll leave U totally alone. Fair enough?

[Saint John]

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Ok Dan... I'm off u. U obviously don't get funny shit. So, I'll leave U totally alone. Fair enough?

I'm not a big fan of fairness, but ok.

[STORY_TELLER]

I consider myself a passionate Journey fan -- be it the Perry-era, Augeri-era, Soto-era, or the soon-to-be Arnel-era -- I've always considered the whole to be greater than its individual parts; Journey > Steve Perry, Journey > Neal Schon, Journey > Jonathan Cain. Granted, Neal and company's decency for treating JSS and SA leaves something to be desired, but as I said in my first post: Journey's a rock band, not a crash course for business ethics.

Question: why do so many people seem to have this unnatural hatred for Arnel? I mean, no offense, but I see no reason for it. He's not responsible for JSS's departure. He's not the reason Perry has retired. He's not responsible for the betrayal of Augeri. I question the reasons behind the anti-Arnel movement here, and -- while I can understand, perhaps disliking the way the man sings -- some people around here seem to hate the guy as a human being.

Why?

To be honest, it's beyond obsessive. It screams "instability!"

Just looking for some insight and enlightenment. Let's not flame.

I think I have an answer for you:

Honestly, I don't think most people on here really hate Arnel. He's just the easy target for the anger at Neal and Jon over the whole JSS thing. It's silly really. Normally if you're angry at someone, you complain about the person who you're angry at. My guess is those who make fun of Arnel do so thinking it will affect the band in some way as payback for their actions against Jeff. Those that supported Jeff would like nothing better than to see Journey fall flat on their face without him. If they can spread enough bile, they think they can influence others who are on the fence about Arnel and this will help bring about some justice for Jeff. This is my opinion as to why they do it.

Personally, I think what Neal and Jon did was reprehensible. They pulled a guy in at the last minute and threw him to the wolves. To his credit, he stepped up to the plate and not only saved their financial asses, but by all accounts, the majority of fans really liked him. Then they offered him the official permanent lead singer position, let him announce it live on stage while on tour, then yanked the rug out from under him AFTER they were clear of their difficult touring obligations and didn't even have the decency to tell him themselves. Simply disgusting.

I myself never saw the tour with JSS. Personally, I wasn't for Jeff in Journey. I had heard Soul Sirkus and really didn't like the album. I didn't think Neal and Jeff had chemistry. Then I heard the demo of winds of freedom. While it's not a great song (let's face it, the lyrics are simply cheesy), it showed me a glimpse of what might have been. A new direction that still held the emotional element we've come to expect from the band called Journey without putting a Perry clone on the mic.

Hope that answers your question, but now I have a comment to make about your perceptions of us and the reasons you are less attached to the original lineup than we are:

I think the reason you consider yourself a fan of the whole band Journey is because you were exposed to them in the Augeri era. You discovered all their material at once, all the hits all the back albums, whereas a majority of the rest of us were along for the ride from their start, with the originator of their sound, Steve Perry. When Perry came along, it was like nothing else anyone had heard. It was extremely unique and it's the thing that built Journey's fan base into what it is today. Yes, Perry was the originator of the sound which you have heard cloned, copied, reproduced (although not with the same skill level) by other singers (ie. Augeri, Deen and countless others who have taken influence from him). What you have to understand is that when less experienced (sorry to say it) younger people, hear the history of this band performed again and again by copycats, the impact the originator of that material made doesn't seem as special. My point is, if you had grown with the band as we did, you wouldn't feel the same way.

Case in point:
Most people today look at actors such as Robert DeNiro or Al Pacino and don't see what's so special about them. What they don't realize is that those guys originated an approach to acting that was so unique when they did it (ie. Godfather) that it stood out above the norm at that time. Since then, other talented actors, fans in fact, have watched these performances, emulated and repeated their techniques again and again to the point that the originators techniques are now found in performances in most movie actors today. After we're exposed to the 'students' of these original talents again and again, it makes the originators techniques seem less special and more common.

This is what I see happening with Journey and Steve Perry.

When fans grow with a band, especially one with as distinctive a sound and emotionally charged music as Journey, they develop an emotional attachment to the band and its music. Music sparks memories and feelings associated with the times in which we lived. Fans feel slighted, cheated, even ripped off when a copycat is brought in to replace the originator because of that emotional connection to the music and the artists who created it. For most, Journey's main ingredient has been and always will be Steve Perry. Make no mistake, whatever sound Journey has now was built on the creative involvement of Steve Perry. Neal and Gregg were not moving in the musical direction we now call Journey. They were primarily a progressive rock band. Their song writing and melody choices did not have the R&B foundation it developed with Perry's involvement. They didn't even want Perry in the band. Herbie shoved him down their throats. Had Perry not joined the band, odds are there would be no Journey, but if it did continue, Jon Cain wouldn't have joined. We wouldn't have had Escape or Frontiers (which is where a majority of the GH's come from).

That being said, I think today, Journey would have had a chance to keep its hard core fan base happy had they intentionally replaced Perry with someone who sounded NOTHING like him. Certainly not Augeri. Certainly not Chalfant and certainly not Arnel. They needed someone with sophisticated vocal chords and a soulful delivery to compliment Neal's melodic guitar and Jon's musicianship. That would have been enough to truly move on and stand on their own feet without Perry. Jeff proved this was possible.

It's not Neal's fault Perry quit. He waited years for that guy to come around. Journey had a chance to prove they were more than Perry's backing band by going with another singer who didn't sound like him. Yet at almost every turn, they've looked for a Perry clone while making statements like "they're moving on". They're not moving on. They're recreating Perry's artistry with another artist. That's low. It insults Perry and it insults the fans who supported them with Perry.

Sorry to bring up the youth thing, but you didn't experience Journey the way we did. You're experiencing a tribute band made up of the original members. That's just not the same thing. It's a nostalgia act.

Unless Caveman's reports hold water and Arnel lives up to the hype, this band will remain just that. A nostalgia act living off revenue generated from their greatest hits tour year after year. Greatest hits created and performed by the band largely influenced by Steve Perry.

Hope this is a strong enough explanation. Don't read anger or malice into this explanation. Remember the written word comes off harsh without inflection. (I honestly think that's where a lot of the flame wars come from on this board)

[Saint John]

Story Teller, while your argument is at times very valid, well thought out and put forth nicely, you're missing some key points. Journey can only do what their audience calls for, and the vast majority of their annual concert going audience wants the Greatest Hits. Furthermore, the days of bold moves and "a new direction" have long since passed. These guys are a band, but more importantly they're a corporation. One with mouths to feed, bills to pay, and ex wives and kids to support. Because of that and the demand for a certain sound as mandated by their concert going fans, they have decided to bring in a high tenor (the term Perry clone is stupid) and move forward. That decision is not only safe, but it's extremely smart. Diction issues aside (and I'm confident they'll be a non-issue by this summer) I can't see why anyone has a problem with this choice. It's a band and nothing more. How they decide to treat people is their business and I couldn't care less if they call Perry, Augeri and Soto at night and taunt them. I'm simply detached from the situation. I give these guys money to entertain me and as long as they are able to keep doing that I could not care less how they treat each other or anyone else for that matter.

[STORY_TELLER]

Story Teller, while your argument is at times very valid, well thought out and put forth nicely, you're missing some key points. Journey can only do what their audience calls for, and the vast majority of their annual concert going audience wants the Greatest Hits. Furthermore, the days of bold moves and "a new direction" have long since passed. These guys are a band, but more importantly they're a corporation. One with mouths to feed, bills to pay, and ex wives and kids to support. Because of that and the demand for a certain sound as mandated by their concert going fans, they have decided to bring in a high tenor (the term Perry clone is stupid) and move forward. That decision is not only safe, but it's extremely smart. Diction issues aside (and I'm confident they'll be a non-issue by this summer) I can't see why anyone has a problem with this choice. It's a band and nothing more. How they decide to treat people is their business and I couldn't care less if they call Perry, Augeri and Soto at night and taunt them. I'm simply detached from the situation. I give these guys money to entertain me and as long as they are able to keep doing that I could not care less how they treat each other or anyone else for that matter.

Oh, I'm not missing that point. Well, yeah, I didn't address it in my post in this thread, but I know why they did it. It was a business decision. My point was they didn't need to. The crowds were supporting Jeff singing the greatest hits. If they were booing him, I could understand, but they weren't. Even critics were writing positive reviews. So what was the point of this "safe choice" if all the evidence pointed to majority support for the new non perryesque singer?

Also, SJ, I think you know it's not an unusual thing for the personal choices of people in the public eye to have an affect on their careers. In fact, it's been the norm since the dawn of show business. Look at Mel Gibson, lol! And while the band are entitled to do what they're doing for business (or any other) reasons, I (and many many others) are just as entitled to feel the way we do for the very reasons I outlined in my previous post. Actions have reactions and truth be known, calling yourself a business person making business decisions doesn't give you a pass on moral behavior.

All that being said, I've always stated I want new music from the band. Music I can support. Neal and Jon are talented but I have no interest in the GH's tour year after year. Not without Perry. Augeri era recorded material did not live up to the Journey standard in my opinion. I never listen to it. Perry era I never get tired of. They have to at least match a TBF quality album if they expect me to buy it and support them. (Although I would love for Neal to put out another Beyond the Thunder or Eye on U solo album. Excellent work from him.)

Thanks for the response-

[Saint John]

Story Teller, while your argument is at times very valid, well thought out and put forth nicely, you're missing some key points. Journey can only do what their audience calls for, and the vast majority of their annual concert going audience wants the Greatest Hits. Furthermore, the days of bold moves and "a new direction" have long since passed. These guys are a band, but more importantly they're a corporation. One with mouths to feed, bills to pay, and ex wives and kids to support. Because of that and the demand for a certain sound as mandated by their concert going fans, they have decided to bring in a high tenor (the term Perry clone is stupid) and move forward. That decision is not only safe, but it's extremely smart. Diction issues aside (and I'm confident they'll be a non-issue by this summer) I can't see why anyone has a problem with this choice. It's a band and nothing more. How they decide to treat people is their business and I couldn't care less if they call Perry, Augeri and Soto at night and taunt them. I'm simply detached from the situation. I give these guys money to entertain me and as long as they are able to keep doing that I could not care less how they treat each other or anyone else for that matter.

Oh, I'm not missing that point. Well, yeah, I didn't address it in my post in this thread, but I've pointed out the same thing, echoing that same understanding elsewhere. I know why they did it. My point was they didn't need to. The crowds were supporting Jeff. If they were booing him, I could understand, but they weren't. Even critics were writing positive reviews. So what was the point of this "safe choice" if all the evidence pointed to majority support for the new singer? And if the days of "bold new direction" are over, why record a new album? Costs money to do that, you know?

It's good you're so detached, but it's not an unusual thing for the personal choices of people in the public eye to have an affect on their careers. In fact, it's been the norm since the dawn of show business. Look at Mel Gibson, lol!

All that being said, I've always stated I want new music from the band. Music I can support. Neal and Jon are talented but I have no interest in the GH's tour year after year. Not without Perry. Augeri era recorded material did not live up the Journey standard in my opinion. I never listen to it. Perry era I never get tired of. If Arnel can create new music with that same heart and quality, he'll have my vote. If not, I'm pretty much done with this band. Other than that, I hope Neal goes back and makes another Beyond the Thunder or Eye on U project. Both great albums.

The "personal choices" they made with Jeff were simple. They publicly thanked him and continued looking for someone else. This is a very common business practice. Just because they didn't have a going away party for him at Disneyworld has people all up in arms. He was paid for every show he performed and he was not slighted in the least bit contractually (that I know of), so all of the belly aching needs to end. The best way to protest is to not attend a show this year. I will be there though. Lastly, I'm much more excited at the prospect of Arnel singing new music. He has the tenor voice the band needs. Neal and Jon have a ton of material that needs vocals and the music was created with that tenor voice in mind. Jeff can't come close to what Arnel can do vocally. Though he's as strong, his voice doesn't have near the range that is Journey's signature sound.

[conversationpc]

The "personal choices" they made with Jeff were simple. They publicly thanked him and continued looking for someone else. This is a very common business practice. Just because they didn't have a going away party for him at Disneyworld has people all up in arms. He was paid for every show he performed and he was not slighted in the least bit contractually (that I know of), so all of the belly aching needs to end. The best way to protest is to not attend a show this year. I will be there though. Lastly, I'm much more excited at the prospect of Arnel singing new music. He has the tenor voice the band needs. Neal and Jon have a ton of material that needs vocals and the music was created with that tenor voice in mind. Jeff can't come close to what Arnel can do vocally. Though he's as strong, his voice doesn't have near the range that is Journey's signature sound.

That "they didn't have a going away party for him at Disneyworld" isn't what most are really upset about. It's HOW he was let go, with no one from the band bothering to contact him personally and let him know. That may or may not be common practice nowadays but it's not right regardless.