Lead singer changes

[STORY_TELLER]

I agree except for the last two projects...ROR and TBF had arguably only a few good songs combined, at least when you compare them to the previous material where it was the opposite. Mostly good tunes with maybe one clunker...and Perry's decisions with direction were taking shape. You can hear the song writing magic between Perry and Lord Farquaad changing. A friend of mine who gave up on them after TBF called the sound "MATURNEY" due to the whimpy and adult rock nature of the songs!! That's why I think a new direction with JSS would have worked. I know I would have bought the CD and a ticket without thinking about it.

okay, I'm off the dead horse now...carry on without the newbie...

Perry for sure had too much control in the band at that point. His ego got the better of him. That's why I said the "collaboration" between Neal and Perry made their sound. Perry stopped collaborating and started treating the rest of the band like studio musicians.

The maturing of their sound, well, that's what happens to artists as they age. They're at their creative peak in their 20's. Start softening in their 30's and it's mostly downhill from 40 on, lol...

I'm a firm believer that ROR, with those same songs, would have been a great follow up to frontiers had Smitty, Ross and Neal been allowed to do their thing on those songs. It still would have been a softer, more mature album for the group, but more of the Journey sound as heard on the escape/frontiers lineup would have come through and that would have been fine by me.

[The Sushi Hunter]

I did a little brushing up on my Van Halen history study this afternoon and learned that there was a singer between Sammy and Gary in 96'. The guy actually I think would have been a good fit for Van Halen in comparison to Gary from Extreme. But seeings how Eddie's brain is most likely pickled from years of alcohol abuse, things didn't work out between Van Halen and this guy. Articles claim that Van Halen recorded an album with this guy but the material has never been released. That's something to look forward to hopefully if it ever is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IvAHgNOWkk

For a complete account of the drama and trust me....much drama:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitch_Malloy

[Voyager]

What's weird about all of this is that we all are here for basically the same reason: We are huge fans of Journey's music from 1978-1996. However, we seem to find endless reasons to argue about our tastes and dislikes regarding the band Journey. Ironic, isn't it?

Most of the disagreement seems to boil down to one issue: Who Journey decides to choose as the latest Steve Perry replacement. In the long run, however, most of us will end up at the next Journey concert in our area to hear our favorite band play the classic hits with someone who sounds as close to Perry as possible. It's not like this is our first choice... we would love for Perry to be fronting the band again... but he is not giving us that option.

[annie89509]

I agree except for the last two projects...ROR and TBF had arguably only a few good songs combined, at least when you compare them to the previous material where it was the opposite. Mostly good tunes with maybe one clunker...and Perry's decisions with direction were taking shape. You can hear the song writing magic between Perry and Lord Farquaad changing. A friend of mine who gave up on them after TBF called the sound "MATURNEY" due to the whimpy and adult rock nature of the songs!! That's why I think a new direction with JSS would have worked. I know I would have bought the CD and a ticket without thinking about it.

okay, I'm off the dead horse now...carry on without the newbie...

Perry for sure had too much control in the band at that point. His ego got the better of him. That's why I said the "collaboration" between Neal and Perry made their sound. Perry stopped collaborating and started treating the rest of the band like studio musicians.

The maturing of their sound, well, that's what happens to artists as they age. They're at their creative peak in their 20's. Start softening in their 30's and it's mostly downhill from 40 on, lol...

I'm a firm believer that ROR, with those same songs, would have been a great follow up to frontiers had Smitty, Ross and Neal been allowed to do their thing on those songs. It still would have been a softer, more mature album for the group, but more of the Journey sound as heard on the escape/frontiers lineup would have come through and that would have been fine by me.

I'm not so sure it's ego as much as the changing style of SP's voice dictating how Journey would sound like from album to album. And, if you ask me, I think it's Jon that broke the creative tie between Neal & Steve (not meaning in a calculated way). And I do agree the relentless drum beats and synthesizers get on my nerves in some of those ROR songs. But I think those effects on the album were as much the doings of Jon as it was by Steve. Remember, SP was flying back and forth to see his mother, and JC was at the studio every day overseeing the making of the album. Anyway, years later, they all admitted, during the TBF promos, that they went back to "what worked best", that is, Steve/Neal/Jon would work up a song beforehand, but finish it in the studio with Ross&Smitty. The "organic" way of making a record, as they called it.

[STORY_TELLER]

I'm not so sure it's ego as much as the changing style of SP's voice dictating how Journey would sound like from album to album. And, if you ask me, I think it's Jon that broke the creative tie between Neal & Steve (not meaning in a calculated way). And I do agree the relentless drum beats and synthesizers get on my nerves in some of those ROR songs. But I think those effects on the album were as much the doings of Jon as it was by Steve. Remember, SP was flying back and forth to see his mother, and JC was at the studio every day overseeing the making of the album. Anyway, years later, they all admitted, during the TBF promos, that they went back to "what worked best", that is, Steve/Neal/Jon would work up a song beforehand, but finish it in the studio with Ross&Smitty. The "organic" way of making a record, as they called it.

I don't know how you're drawing these conclusions. Sounds to me like you're just trying to defend Perry out of fan loyalty. Sorry, but it's misplaced here. Perry was responsible for everything on ROR. He was in charge from start to finish.

It's well documented that Perry forced out Smitty and Ross in favor of changing the Journey sound for this album. Perry produced the album, hand picked the session bass and drum players. ROR was his baby through and through. Whatever Jon submitted Perry had to approve or he'd change it. He was going for something very specific with this album.

Jon didn't break any creative tie between Neal and Perry. Perry did that on his own. He opted for this album to be bass and keyboard driven. These were his own choices, regardless of Perry flying back and forth to be with his mother.

[finalfight]

Raised on Radio was a bloody good album regardless of the politics and processes involved. Two million copies and five chart singles, nuff said.

[STORY_TELLER]

I did a little brushing up on my Van Halen history study this afternoon and learned that there was a singer between Sammy and Gary in 96'. The guy actually I think would have been a good fit for Van Halen in comparison to Gary from Extreme. But seeings how Eddie's brain is most likely pickled from years of alcohol abuse, things didn't work out between Van Halen and this guy. Articles claim that Van Halen recorded an album with this guy but the material has never been released. That's something to look forward to hopefully if it ever is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IvAHgNOWkk

For a complete account of the drama and trust me....much drama:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitch_Malloy

I'd be curious to hear what they recorded, but I seriously doubt his album would have succeeded any more than VH III did. A large part of the reason VH was able to continue after Roth was because Sammy was a step UP in vocals and song writing ability. Sammy is ten times the singer/songwriter writer Roth is. Don't just think of these guys as singers, they also contribute a great deal to the overall crafting of the song (ie. lyrics, melodies, song structure).

From what I hear in his you tube clips, Malloy sounds like he's an even bigger step down from Sammy than Cherone was.

This is why I'm skeptical of Pineda in Journey. From the reports, sounds like Arnel had nothing to do with the recording of this album other than his vocal chords. If that's the case, I'm expecting arrival part 2 with Pineda on vox, and if that's the case, they might as well call themselves Bad English.

[STORY_TELLER]

Raised on Radio was a bloody good album regardless of the politics and processes involved. Two million copies and five chart singles, nuff said.

Good album, yes. Great album, no. Disappointment to the majority of their fan base? Yes and the two million copies sold you're touting was considered a step down compared to previous albums.

Again, I think if you took those songs on ROR and let the rest of the band do their thing on them, it would have sounded (and sold) better and the majority of the fan base wouldn't be as unkind toward it.

[annie89509]

I'm not so sure it's ego as much as the changing style of SP's voice dictating how Journey would sound like from album to album. And, if you ask me, I think it's Jon that broke the creative tie between Neal & Steve (not meaning in a calculated way). And I do agree the relentless drum beats and synthesizers get on my nerves in some of those ROR songs. But I think those effects on the album were as much the doings of Jon as it was by Steve. Remember, SP was flying back and forth to see his mother, and JC was at the studio every day overseeing the making of the album. Anyway, years later, they all admitted, during the TBF promos, that they went back to "what worked best", that is, Steve/Neal/Jon would work up a song beforehand, but finish it in the studio with Ross&Smitty. The "organic" way of making a record, as they called it.

I don't know how you're drawing these conclusions. Sounds to me like you're just trying to defend Perry out of fan loyalty. Sorry, but it's misplaced here. Perry was responsible for everything on ROR. He was in charge from start to finish.

It's well documented that Perry forced out Smitty and Ross in favor of changing the Journey sound for this album. Perry produced the album, hand picked the session bass and drum players. ROR was his baby through and through. Whatever Jon submitted Perry had to approve or he'd change it. He was going for something very specific with this album.

Jon didn't break any creative tie between Neal and Perry. Perry did that on his own. He opted for this album to be bass and keyboard driven. These were his own choices, regardless of Perry flying back and forth to be with his mother.

StoryTeller, I was trying to interject an opinion in a general way, while you have focused on the ROR sessions and ultimate finished product. Of course Steve did all those things. We all know the back story. You talked about Steve breaking away from Neal creatively. I was trying to point out that when Jon stepped into the band, the dynamics of the songwriting team changed. Look who wrote all the major songs pre-JC. It was SP/NS. Suddenly, it's SP/NS/JC, or SP/JC/NS, or just SP/JC. If Neal's role in the songwriting seemed to have diminished over the years, it is because of Jon's presence. Facts are facts, I'm not trying to defending anyone. You may not have liked ROR, but a lot of fans do. Again, it is just opinion. Everyone has one.

[strangegrey]

Sorry guys, but all the examples and arguments for replacing an established lead singer don't equate to Journey's situation.

Journey's sound was founded on the collaboration of Neal 's guitar and Perry's vocals....

eh, not really. It was founded around Neal and Gregg. Perry didn't join this band until 3 albums later and several warnings from the label. The fact remains that once a band has *established*....it will forever be compared to the something it has established.

Now, having said all of that...what Journey *discovered* in 78, was that Schlong's guitar and Perry's voice made pretty magical couple....*that* was the establishment. Following that stake in the ground, it would have been impossible for any singer to replace perry....

That's where my rule comes into play. No one would be able to follow Perry following the release of Infinity (assumption of it's success of course)...The man's voice is incomparable. If, however....Journey replaced Perry in 78, because the album sucked and Schlong's guitar didn't work with Perry's voice...they could have inserted Chalfant into the mix and it might have worked.




moving on...
As far as Mitch Malloy is concerned, there's far less comparability between Mitch Malloy and Arnel as there is with Mitch Malloy and Jeremey.

Mitch Malloy (who no longer even really does MR...he's more country now) called EVH and told him to tear up the offer letter, so to speak. Mitch was offered the position, he accepted....went home to celebrate with friends and family...and while watching the MTV awards, Van Halen walks out on stage with Roth to present.

Mitch, very smartly, realized that whoever followed such an ordeal as VH's new singer, would die trying....and he made the smartest career move he ever made. He told EVH where to go.

[STORY_TELLER]

Sorry guys, but all the examples and arguments for replacing an established lead singer don't equate to Journey's situation.

Journey's sound was founded on the collaboration of Neal 's guitar and Perry's vocals....

eh, not really. It was founded around Neal and Gregg. Perry didn't join this band until 3 albums later and several warnings from the label. The fact remains that once a band has *established*....it will forever be compared to the something it has established.

We're on the same page, you just took longer to make the same point, lol...

My statement still holds water. Journey's sound was founded on Neal and Perry because they didn't gain popularity before Perry joined. That was the establishing point. Nobody cared about Neal and Gregg's band before then. They were on their way out. The label was getting ready to drop them.

[STORY_TELLER]

StoryTeller, I was trying to interject an opinion in a general way, while you have focused on the ROR sessions and ultimate finished product. Of course Steve did all those things. We all know the back story. You talked about Steve breaking away from Neal creatively. I was trying to point out that when Jon stepped into the band, the dynamics of the songwriting team changed. Look who wrote all the major songs pre-JC. It was SP/NS. Suddenly, it's SP/NS/JC, or SP/JC/NS, or just SP/JC. If Neal's role in the songwriting seemed to have diminished over the years, it is because of Jon's presence. Facts are facts, I'm not trying to defending anyone. You may not have liked ROR, but a lot of fans do. Again, it is just opinion. Everyone has one.

Sorry Annie, I misunderstood your post. Since the discussion was about ROR, I thought you too were talking specifically about that. I apologize.

Yes, you're correct that the addition of Jon Cain changed the song writing dynamic, but not in a way that made Neal insignificant. The three of them together yielded superior songs in a way that none of them could achieve on their own. ROR seemed to do just that (make Neal insignificant), but that was Perry's doing, not Jon's. He seemed hell bent on centering the sound even more around his vocals than around the band as a whole.

Don't get me wrong, ROR is still a good record. I like a lot of the tracks on it. Most of them, in fact. It's just annoying to know that those same tracks would have and could have been even stronger had Perry not made that album about him. Had the rest of the band contributed on those same tracks, the album would have been stellar (IMO).

Again, apologies.

[strangegrey]

My statement still holds water. Journey's sound was founded on Neal and Perry because they didn't gain popularity before Perry joined. That was the establishing point. Nobody cared about Neal and Gregg's band before then. They were on their way out. The label was getting ready to drop them.

Well, no...it *wasn't* founded on Perry/Schlong. It may have been based on it, at a much later date....but certainly not founded on it, as Journey existed as a band for almost 5 years prior to Perry ever joining the group. How you can something be founding on something that doesn't exist yet?

[STORY_TELLER]

My statement still holds water. Journey's sound was founded on Neal and Perry because they didn't gain popularity before Perry joined. That was the establishing point. Nobody cared about Neal and Gregg's band before then. They were on their way out. The label was getting ready to drop them.

Well, no...it *wasn't* founded on Perry/Schlong. It may have been based on it, at a much later date....but certainly not founded on it, as Journey existed as a band for almost 5 years prior to Perry ever joining the group. How you can something be founding on something that doesn't exist yet?

...ahem... Ummm... don't you think you're splitting a really fine hair here? I said Journey's sound was founded on Neal and Perry. The sound that Neal and Gregg made without Perry was dropped and disregarded because nobody cared. The only Journey that means anything as far as the masses are concerned is the one with Perry in the mix. Ergo, the Journey sound is founded on his involvement.

[sniper16]

neal and jon formed bad english and all they heard from diehards was bring back journey.
if your a fan of a band just shut up and go see them hear those songs and enjoy or dont go ,and dont rip people for enjoying them

[journeyrock]

I think it really comes down to a few factors:

1) If the singer didn't have it to begin with and is replaced by someone who does, the change works. This type of change happens all the time and doesn't piss off the fans.
i.e. Paul being replaced by Bruce in Iron Maiden


2) If the singer had it *and* the replacement singer had it...and the band doesn't miss a single beat. everything's perfect. kick ass, take no names. To date, there is only one band that has EVER pulled this off. Van Halen (when Roth was replaced by Sammy). for the record, Cherone replacing Hagar falls into category #3.


3) If the singer has it and is replaced by someone who doesn't, this change is awful, disgraceful and simply unfun to watch play out. Also, depending on how good the original singers is, the severity of the umcomfortable nature of the change is amplified. Every lead singer change Journey has gone through falls into this category. There isn't a human being on this earth that should be allowed to whipe Steve Perry's sweaty balls. No one compares to him. So when you replace him with a damn good singer, it doesn't fucking matter is the singer would have *killed* in another band....he's replacing Steve Perry. Game Over.

I just returned from a weekend away and I have one word....... Touche!!!!!

[Tomulator]

Just becaue you CAN...doesn't mean you SHOULD.

Journey is one of an elite group of LEGENDARY bands which CANNOT successfully replace their SIGNATURE lead singer.

It's really just POOR TASTE to even try...

IMO

[Rip Rokken]

Changes that I enjoyed
Asia - John Payne replacing John Wetton. I love all of the Payne era Asia, too bad it didn't fare better commercially. Hardly ever listen to anything but the best 6 or so songs of Wetton era.

Rock on!!!

What other changes am I missing?

Jamie St. James in Warrant... not a good choice! On the flip-side, if Robert Plant ever left Led Zeppelin, the only way they could carry on and remain in the good graces of the fans would be to bring this guy on board...

Click on track 3, "Kashmir" in the link below:

http://myspace.com/frankiebanali

!!!

[conversationpc]

Yes - Horn for Anderson - same as above, I enjoy it, but it is not Yes

The "Drama" album sounds as much like Yes as anything else they've ever done. In fact, if Trever Horn were not listed as the singer on that album, I probably would not know to this day that it wasn't Jon Anderson, since Horn sounds so much like him.

[Gordon from Edinburgh]

Raised on Radio was a bloody good album regardless of the politics and processes involved. Two million copies and five chart singles, nuff said.

Good album, yes. Great album, no. Disappointment to the majority of their fan base? Yes and the two million copies sold you're touting was considered a step down compared to previous albums.

Again, I think if you took those songs on ROR and let the rest of the band do their thing on them, it would have sounded (and sold) better and the majority of the fan base wouldn't be as unkind toward it.

Maybe just a question of production. The Girl Cant Help It may be my favourite Journey song but i rarely play the studio version , cos the one on the DVD/Time 3 live from Mountain Aire is out of this world - and the opening guitar riff in ROR (the song) is well heavy....

[Rip Rokken]

Yes - Horn for Anderson - same as above, I enjoy it, but it is not Yes

The "Drama" album sounds as much like Yes as anything else they've ever done. In fact, if Trever Horn were not listed as the singer on that album, I probably would not know to this day that it wasn't Jon Anderson, since Horn sounds so much like him.

Didn't Geoff Downes play keys on that album as well? If I remember correctly, both those guys came in together.

[conversationpc]

Yes - Horn for Anderson - same as above, I enjoy it, but it is not Yes

The "Drama" album sounds as much like Yes as anything else they've ever done. In fact, if Trever Horn were not listed as the singer on that album, I probably would not know to this day that it wasn't Jon Anderson, since Horn sounds so much like him.

Didn't Geoff Downes play keys on that album as well? If I remember correctly, both those guys came in together.

Yep...Wakeman and Anderson left and Downes and Horn replaced them. There are a couple of reald duds on that album but "Machine Messiah" and "Tempus Fugit" more than make up for them.

[kgdjpubs]

I think it really comes down to a few factors:

1) If the singer didn't have it to begin with and is replaced by someone who does, the change works. This type of change happens all the time and doesn't piss off the fans.
i.e. Paul being replaced by Bruce in Iron Maiden


2) If the singer had it *and* the replacement singer had it...and the band doesn't miss a single beat. everything's perfect. kick ass, take no names. To date, there is only one band that has EVER pulled this off. Van Halen (when Roth was replaced by Sammy). for the record, Cherone replacing Hagar falls into category #3.


3) If the singer has it and is replaced by someone who doesn't, this change is awful, disgraceful and simply unfun to watch play out. Also, depending on how good the original singers is, the severity of the umcomfortable nature of the change is amplified. Every lead singer change Journey has gone through falls into this category. There isn't a human being on this earth that should be allowed to whipe Steve Perry's sweaty balls. No one compares to him. So when you replace him with a damn good singer, it doesn't fucking matter is the singer would have *killed* in another band....he's replacing Steve Perry. Game Over.

As mentioned earlier, I would add the Peter Gabriel to Phil Collins transition of Genesis to #2. Phil's solo career certainly didn't hurt the popularity of Genesis, but Genesis with Phil Collins was successful long before the solo career was (the Duke, Abacab and Genesis albums specifically).

The Ray Wilson transition fell more into category 3, as the mass populus was simply unwilling to accept Genesis without Phil Collins, but by that point, Phil Collins as a solo artist was much bigger than Genesis ever was.

one point for category #2 is that the new singer must work as the lead singer of the band. Just putting singer X who has "it" into band Y with recently-departed singer Z who has "it" doesn't necessarily work unless the new singer and the band click.

There is one factor though that is bigger than anything else mentioned however as far as success of the band without the singer--label support. If the label doesn't want the lineup change to happen, good luck regardless. Take a read at the Kevin Elson interview Andrew did a while back about when Lou Gramm left Foreigner in the mid 1980s...

Fantastic. Do you think… the album really didn't do a lot.
First off, anytime…if you're Lou Gramm, you do a record, you call it Lou Gramm. You don't…He got into this whole thing about wanting to be part of a band. And then the other thing is that he wanted to leave Foreigner. Now, at that time…and he left Foreigner. Now Atlantic is never going to let that album happen. If it had twenty hits on it, they weren't going to let it happen. Because where did they want Lou Gramm? Back in the band. Because Foreigner was a staple for them. Who's that kid that they put in the band?
Johnny something or other.

Johnny Edwards, yeah.
Johnny Edwards.

Didn't work did it?
No. Talented kid. Real talented kid.


The label wants the singer in the band, because that is where the easy money is. It all boils down to money. If the songs are there, you can make the band popular. All it takes is money and connections. If you are out of favor with the label however, you aren't going to get a hit record.

[kgdjpubs]

So when a singer like one of those guys decides he doesn't want to be in the band anymore, when all of the other band members still do and are in their prime, all the music they created should be locked away and never played live again? Just because of one person's desire to hang it up? And if they do bring in another singer, they are now irrelevant?

What did the guys in the Elvis band do after he died? Did they grab an Elvis impersonator and start touring the country?

I think a band going through a lead singer replacement should have a new sound and a new direction if they want to be recognized as an original act. If they grab someone based on his voice souding the same as the last guy, and they make him sing the songs that the last guy made famous - then the band should be categorized as a tribute band.

I have to admit, I was very reluctant to embrace Steve Augeri. I got kicked off of the BackTalk forum for not being willing to accept a Steve Perry impersonator as a replacement singer for Journey. I am having a problem embracing Arnel for the same reasons. I didn't have an issue with JSS because he stepped in to help the band salvage their tour with promises of new original material that was not aimed at purposely recreating the Perry sound.

ya know, there is a difference between a solo act (Elvis, Rod Stewart, Elton John, etc) and a band (Rolling Stones, Genesis, etc). Journey is caught somewhere between a rock and a hard place along with 90% of the bands out there--with one major difference, a singer who doesn't want to sing anymore. The bills are still out there, and coming in more by the month. In the end, Journey is a business that makes money. Without money, there is no band. Sure, Journey could have put Augeri out there with new material that had a different direction, played 90% new material in shows plus the odd Perry-era hit. They would have been playing the county fair out in the boondocks before the end of the year. End of band.

The only hope is to try and continue as "Journey" and hope you can get radio to play the songs. If Journey had gotten a real radio hit out of Arrival, we might be in a very different place. Yea, yea, if pigs could fly....

So you are left with the road. Go out, play a lot of shows, rake in a large amount of money. It's not glamorous, and it certainly isn't drawing in teenage girls, but it's a solid stream of money. Journey is a known commodity. The people are going to get drunk and try and relive a small amount of their youth, which is rapidly fading away. New material is irrevalent, because nobody cares. I'm actually amazed they are trying one last time with the possibility of a marketing campaign, dvd, and a new album. If this fails--which is highly likely regardless of how good Arnel and the band are--I doubt you will ever see another album of new material from the band. What's the purpose of spending the time and effort on something that nobody will buy, nobody will listen to, and most people just don't care one way or the other?

btw, on the subject of the aborted JSS-led band, I would imagine 80-90% of the songs on the new album are the same songs that JSS would have been singing, if they had kept him. Sure, add a lyrical change here and there, and some different vocal inflections, but if you think it would have been "Journey meets Talisman" or some variation thereof, you would have been dissappointed. The band tried change of sound before, and it failed miserably. The only difference is that JSS has his own stage presence that doesn't resemble Perry/Augeri in the slightest, and that JSS would have done his vocals in a slightly lower range than Arnel will.

The songs, however, would have been the same. It would have still tried to sound like "classic Journey", just like they are trying for right now.

[annie89509]

StoryTeller, I was trying to interject an opinion in a general way, while you have focused on the ROR sessions and ultimate finished product. Of course Steve did all those things. We all know the back story. You talked about Steve breaking away from Neal creatively. I was trying to point out that when Jon stepped into the band, the dynamics of the songwriting team changed. Look who wrote all the major songs pre-JC. It was SP/NS. Suddenly, it's SP/NS/JC, or SP/JC/NS, or just SP/JC. If Neal's role in the songwriting seemed to have diminished over the years, it is because of Jon's presence. Facts are facts, I'm not trying to defending anyone. You may not have liked ROR, but a lot of fans do. Again, it is just opinion. Everyone has one.

Sorry Annie, I misunderstood your post. Since the discussion was about ROR, I thought you too were talking specifically about that. I apologize.

Yes, you're correct that the addition of Jon Cain changed the song writing dynamic, but not in a way that made Neal insignificant. The three of them together yielded superior songs in a way that none of them could achieve on their own. ROR seemed to do just that (make Neal insignificant), but that was Perry's doing, not Jon's. He seemed hell bent on centering the sound even more around his vocals than around the band as a whole.

Don't get me wrong, ROR is still a good record. I like a lot of the tracks on it. Most of them, in fact. It's just annoying to know that those same tracks would have and could have been even stronger had Perry not made that album about him. Had the rest of the band contributed on those same tracks, the album would have been stellar (IMO).

Again, apologies.

, StoryTeller, the trouble with trying to have a discussion on a messageboard is you only have so much time (patience) in trying to put a point across, all the while having to type and think at the same time, and invariably we tend to go back and forth in circles. A word here and there that one puts on a post may take on a whole different meaning to someone reading it.

Yes, I agree, from all accounts, SP was fully in control by the time ROR came around. Everybody was so desparate to keep Journey intact that they were willing to give SP anything and everything--so they told him he could produce the next Journey album, just as he did for Street Talk, which turned out so successful. Also by all accounts, it was not something he had seeked. He wanted to stay in LA and make another solo album (there were extra songs left over from Street Talk).

Call me a loon, but I just don't think it's all ego or wanting to make this album "all about him." Steve was still in LA when Jon and Neal started laying out the songs for what turned into ROR. Jon said he liked Street Talk so much that he started writing songs in the same vain. Of course, Jon knew which side of the bread to butter, too.

Yes, SP is the vocal centerpiece of ROR. Which album, from Infinity-TBF, hasn't he been the centerpiece of?

[journeyrock]

StoryTeller, I was trying to interject an opinion in a general way, while you have focused on the ROR sessions and ultimate finished product. Of course Steve did all those things. We all know the back story. You talked about Steve breaking away from Neal creatively. I was trying to point out that when Jon stepped into the band, the dynamics of the songwriting team changed. Look who wrote all the major songs pre-JC. It was SP/NS. Suddenly, it's SP/NS/JC, or SP/JC/NS, or just SP/JC. If Neal's role in the songwriting seemed to have diminished over the years, it is because of Jon's presence. Facts are facts, I'm not trying to defending anyone. You may not have liked ROR, but a lot of fans do. Again, it is just opinion. Everyone has one.

Sorry Annie, I misunderstood your post. Since the discussion was about ROR, I thought you too were talking specifically about that. I apologize.

Yes, you're correct that the addition of Jon Cain changed the song writing dynamic, but not in a way that made Neal insignificant. The three of them together yielded superior songs in a way that none of them could achieve on their own. ROR seemed to do just that (make Neal insignificant), but that was Perry's doing, not Jon's. He seemed hell bent on centering the sound even more around his vocals than around the band as a whole.

Don't get me wrong, ROR is still a good record. I like a lot of the tracks on it. Most of them, in fact. It's just annoying to know that those same tracks would have and could have been even stronger had Perry not made that album about him. Had the rest of the band contributed on those same tracks, the album would have been stellar (IMO).

Again, apologies.

, StoryTeller, the trouble with trying to have a discussion on a messageboard is you only have so much time (patience) in trying to put a point across, all the while having to type and think at the same time, and invariably we tend to go back and forth in circles. A word here and there that one puts on a post may take on a whole different meaning to someone reading it.

Yes, I agree, from all accounts, SP was fully in control by the time ROR came around. Everybody was so desparate to keep Journey intact that they were willing to give SP anything and everything--so they told him he could produce the next Journey album, just as he did for Street Talk, which turned out so successful. Also by all accounts, it was not something he had seeked. He wanted to stay in LA and make another solo album (there were extra songs left over from Street Talk).

Call me a loon, but I just don't think it's all ego or wanting to make this album "all about him." Steve was still in LA when Jon and Neal started laying out the songs for what turned into ROR. Jon said he liked Street Talk so much that he started writing songs in the same vain. Of course, Jon knew which side of the bread to butter, too.

Yes, SP is the vocal centerpiece of ROR. Which album, from Infinity-TBF, hasn't he been the centerpiece of?

You got me

Seems to me he's STILL the centerpiece with all the discussions about him on the messageboards these days.