VOTE, Dammit!

[Barb]

None of them on either side of the aisle is worth a spit at this point.

AMEN! I don't like any of them.

[bluejeangirl76]

The Real ID act as is has flaws and concerns, yes, but I think the intentions are halfway good. As with HIPAA, it's really about standardization, and asking states to conform to a specific set of data. It's not even a Federally issued ID card (which is why I feel the term "National ID" is kind of misleading) -- states still produce the cards, but must conform to certain standards that are nationally recognized. Sure, there is the security aspect, and I don't blame them for not allowing people into Govt. buildings without a trusted form of identification.

Can you imagine what may have been avoided if we'd had something like this, oh, say, 7 years ago? Clearly there's an immigration problem here, so if we can at least get a handle on keeping track of what and who is going on around here, I'm for it until I hear a better idea. And I don't see a problem with standardizing identification among the states. Its funny how we're the "united" states, but we (meaning each state) probably stand alone on more things than we unite upon.

[scarygirl]

"Based on the things you've said I agree that it was probably a very wise decision for you not to have children. "

Oh Sherrie. I'm not even going to respond to that.

[Lula]

i'm feeling pretty good with my choices. voted yesterday and love the term - mama for obama .

[Rick]

i'm feeling pretty good with my choices. voted yesterday and love the term - mama for obama .

[scarygirl]

That's why no one should have children sherrie.
They might get sick or become too expensive, thus making us all irresponsible people.

You shouldn't have children you can't afford. That's not heartless that's smart. It is irresponsible to have kids, particularly when people are on minimum wage which invariably those are the ones who end up applying for aid.

Of course they shouldn't scary. I've never said they should. Based on the things you've said I agree that it was probably a very wise decision for you not to have children.

However, the point I was trying to make to you the other day when it got lost in all of the outrageous hyperbole is that many thousands of families who had no reason to think they wouldn't be able to afford their children no longer can through no fault of their own.

Couples who got married in the late 80s and early 90s and were doing well in jobs and careers that they thought they could count on had children and planned on a good future for them.

Then our government took these working families' tax money and paid the companies they worked for to take their jobs overseas. Now these families' incomes have been suddenly cut in half because contrary to what some uninformed people have said on here, there are no jobs that these people can step into and resume, or even ever hope to attain, the same level of income.

They can no longer afford their mortgages, they've lost their health care benefits and are very unlikely to find jobs that provide group plans. They can't afford the rest of the care for their daughter's braces. They can't afford for their son to continue his physical rehab on the leg he broke playing football last year. They can't afford to keep their oldest on college. If one of them has an illness that requires hospitalization they're just up shit creek, but hey, it's their own fault right? They should have known better than to believe they had a chance at a future on those middle class earnings.

Yes both parents might be able to go out and get multiple minimum wage jobs to be able to provide basic shelter, food, and clothing for the family. I don't know when they would have time to be parents of course. But hey none of that is the government's responsibility, right? Even though they literally paid those companies to take these people's futures away from them, it's up to these people to root little pig or die, right? That's the American way, right? The government can take our tax money and use it to destroy our economic stability, but we're supposed to be happy that all of those CEOs and CFOs are making all those billions and keeping the stock market rolling so the rich can get richer while the middle class disintegrates into poverty, right?

By the way did you know that's how Romney got so rich? He bought companies and shut them down putting people out of work. But hey, that's the American way, right?

I believe that every person makes their life based on their own merits. Sometimes those merits aren't equal, but that's life. If the CEO of a company is making millions for his company and thus is getting compensated, then IMO he or she has earned it.

It's sad that people lose their jobs, but people lose their jobs everyday and not always because they have been shipped over seas. Should they be compensated too? The economy is obviously volatile, and that is why more than ever people need to think twice about every expenditure they make. A lot of the things we consider necesseties would have been unthinkable 20 or more years ago. If you're having money issues, cut back. Cancel your satellite/cable, service, extra cell phones, internet whatever, and pay off those credit cards. Put whatever extra you have in a high yield online savings account. Every little bit counts and it adds up faster than you think.

Oh, and whatever you do, don't depend on your government to fix things. They won't. They want you to be dumb and dependent. A dependent population is a controlled population is just fodder for the taking.

[RedWingFan]

That's why no one should have children sherrie.
They might get sick or become too expensive, thus making us all irresponsible people.

You shouldn't have children you can't afford. That's not heartless that's smart. It is irresponsible to have kids, particularly when people are on minimum wage which invariably those are the ones who end up applying for aid.

Of course they shouldn't scary. I've never said they should. Based on the things you've said I agree that it was probably a very wise decision for you not to have children.

I usually try not to get too worked up about your stupid comments. But this one is over the top and completely uncalled for. By your completely miserable and hopeless posts, It would have been a pretty wise decision if your mother would have never had you.
At least scarygirl doesn't pass her days wollowing in her own helplessness. "Who's gonna do this for me?" Who's gonna pay for that for me?"

[Rip Rokken]

Rip, you work in a clinic? What do you do? I'm an ER nurse.

I worked in healthcare for years, including an ER. The ER was fun, fun, especially on the nights that people got their welfare checks, because they would go blow a chunk of it on booze or drugs and then come waste our time and money after they did something stupid. We were a private hospital, but of course have to treat anybody, and almost all of these losers were "self pay". Another reason healthcare costs are so high -- the people who do pay also pay for those who don't (or can't, to be fair).

Anyway, I left healthcare years ago. I currently do work for several clinics, though, so I was in the middle of all the HIPAA hoo-ha.

[weatherman90]

17 - can't vote. Romney is my guy though, although it is not looking good for the Romster at the moment.

[ohsherrie]

OK, based on what I've read in this thread and others in response to my posts I've come to these conclusions:

Nobody should try to make a life for their self because if the government doesn't want you to have that life then you don't deserve it.

Nobody should assume that they have enough security in their jobs to have children because if the government doesn't want you to be able to afford those kids then you shouldn't have had them.

Nobody in this country should care about anybody less fortunate because there's no excuse for their being less fortunate.

AND THAT'S THE AMERICAN WAY!!!!

[7 Wishes]

Nobody in this country should care about anybody less fortunate because there's no excuse for their being less fortunate.

I'm with you on this observation. Down South, a lot of people are born into money...they don't earn it themselves. But they seem to think inheriting wealth makes them better than everyone else.

[scarygirl]

Nobody in this country should care about anybody less fortunate because there's no excuse for their being less fortunate.

I'm with you on this observation. Down South, a lot of people are born into money...they don't earn it themselves. But they seem to think inheriting wealth makes them better than everyone else.

Born into money? Do you really believe that? People somewhere up or down the line had to put up their own creativity, sweat and tears to build up what they had to pass on to the next generation. Money doesn't grow on trees.

[7 Wishes]

Read the post. These are third generation people who are inheriting money or businesses, having put NOTHING into it in the first place...I know more than a few who have spent it all or run the businesses into the ground.

[scarygirl]

OK, based on what I've read in this thread and others in response to my posts I've come to these conclusions:

Nobody should try to make a life for their self because if the government doesn't want you to have that life then you don't deserve it.

Nobody should assume that they have enough security in their jobs to have children because if the government doesn't want you to be able to afford those kids then you shouldn't have had them.

Nobody in this country should care about anybody less fortunate because there's no excuse for their being less fortunate.

AND THAT'S THE AMERICAN WAY!!!!

No one's saying that people shouldn't care about others, but at the same time can you really justify a society where wealth is shared? I can't. Please forgive me if I don't remember the differences between communism and socialism, but I believe in a communist society where everyone is essentially the same there are still people, a select few mind you that hold the majority of the assets while the rest are all equally poor. Meaning all those minnions because everything is still controlled by a governmental few in the name of equality HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO SHOT AT ANYTHING BETTER, EVER. Sorry, but I still like our democracy, as flawed as it.

[scarygirl]

Read the post. These are third generation people who are inheriting money or businesses, having put NOTHING into it in the first place...I know more than a few who have spent it all or run the businesses into the ground.

So are you saying that the one's who created that business or that money shouldn't have the right to pass it on to heirs of their choosing? WOW.

There are lots of people who didn't inherit money, as evidenced by the wild influx of ARM mortgages who have run themselves into the ground too.

[7 Wishes]

You keep missing the point. People who DON'T "earn their way" (the Republican "mantra")...or people who are born into poverty...are ridiculed on this board, and yet those who simply are born into wealth are admired. Not everyone is born into affluence, and there are a lot of brilliant people out there who never have an opportunity to better themselves because they get a lot of bad breaks.

[scarygirl]

You keep missing the point. People who DON'T "earn their way" (the Republican "mantra")...or people who are born into poverty...are ridiculed on this board, and yet those who simply are born into wealth are admired. Not everyone is born into affluence, and there are a lot of brilliant people out there who never have an opportunity to better themselves because they get a lot of bad breaks.

Everyone has bad breaks, some worse than others. I've had more than my share of them and I was neither born into affluence nor have loads of money. I have talent. I have been told by people in the know that I am an excellent writer, yet, I haven't made a dime at it. Why? I haven't tried. I don't believe in myself as much others. I'm afraid. That's my own undoing.

People who were neither rich nor affluent starting out now worth millions. The first two that pop into my head. J.K. Rowling, the author of the very lucrative and highly influential Harry Potter book series. She was on welfare before she sold her fist book. Stephen King. He lived in a trailer on a teaching salary before hitting it big with his first major work, CARRIE.

[scarygirl]

You keep missing the point. People who DON'T "earn their way" (the Republican "mantra")...or people who are born into poverty...are ridiculed on this board, and yet those who simply are born into wealth are admired. Not everyone is born into affluence, and there are a lot of brilliant people out there who never have an opportunity to better themselves because they get a lot of bad breaks.

I have never ridiculed anyone born into poverty, but I believe in conservative ideals which is really funny because of you check my voter registration you'll find that I am a registered democrat. I also voted for Mr Clinton the first time around. As I've gotten older my feelings on certain issues have changed so I now lean more toward the conservative side of things.

[bluejeangirl76]

You keep missing the point. People who DON'T "earn their way" (the Republican "mantra")...or people who are born into poverty...are ridiculed on this board, and yet those who simply are born into wealth are admired. Not everyone is born into affluence, and there are a lot of brilliant people out there who never have an opportunity to better themselves because they get a lot of bad breaks.

I have never ridiculed anyone born into poverty,

That's true. Never ridiculed the ones born into poverty. Just the ones who bore them. I'm not saying it's a good idea to go and have a pile of kids you know you can't afford, but there's a big gray area there. Not everyone plans it, or shirks responsibility for it, or expects everyone else to handle it. I've also got several friends who I feel should not have had kids at the times and under the circumstances that they did, but I'd absolutely never say that, or treat them poorly for it. It's real easy to make comments about things like that when it doesn't apply to you, when you're not in that situation yourself, or when you don't know the person or people you're commenting about.

7 Wishes, you were right about the inheritance thing. If you're having it handed to you and you're living off of it, then...whatever, but for some reason that seems to be okay... I guess as long as you have money and can pay for yourself, it doesn't matter how you got it and you become an exception to the responsibility rule.

[scarygirl]

You keep missing the point. People who DON'T "earn their way" (the Republican "mantra")...or people who are born into poverty...are ridiculed on this board, and yet those who simply are born into wealth are admired. Not everyone is born into affluence, and there are a lot of brilliant people out there who never have an opportunity to better themselves because they get a lot of bad breaks.

I have never ridiculed anyone born into poverty,

That's true. Never ridiculed the ones born into poverty. Just the ones who bore them. I'm not saying it's a good idea to go and have a pile of kids you know you can't afford, but there's a big gray area there. Not everyone plans it, or shirks responsibility for it, or expects everyone else to handle it. I've also got several friends who I feel should not have had kids at the times and under the circumstances that they did, but I'd absolutely never say that, or treat them poorly for it. It's real easy to make comments about things like that when it doesn't apply to you, when you're not in that situation yourself, or when you don't know the person or people you're commenting about.

7 Wishes, you were right about the inheritance thing. If you're having it handed to you and you're living off of it, then...whatever, but for some reason that seems to be okay... I guess as long as you have money and can pay for yourself, it doesn't matter how you got it and you become an exception to the responsibility rule.

The only person I see making this thing personal is you. I made a comment in general, and how do you know that I don't know what I am talking about? I grew up with no money. I had many things happen to me as a youngster. There were many things that happened that happened in my family that were beyond our control, but I can also tell you definately that there were many more that happened that were totally within our control. Poor financial choices. Not aiming for the absolute best. Staying in a bad relationship too long. Making the same mistakes over and over and expecting a different result.

I could write a freaking book on the wages of poor choices and poor planning and how they affect families. I could also write a book on how bad things happen to good people, but the one thing I 'm not going to do is cry about it.

Yes, I feel terrible for people that live under limited circumstances. As stated in another thread, I believe in having some kind of safety net for those in gravely ill health, the mentally ill etc. But I don't feel bad for believing a person should wait on sex and procreation in general until they can handle the all the consequences of said act. That includes being financially prepared. Not saying accidents can't happen. Not saying only middle class people or rich should be the only ones having children. Even so we shouldn't expect other people (i.e the government) to pick up the slack which is exactly what is happening with programs like S-Chip and the even more broad reaching should Hillary be elected Universal Health Care.

As far as the inheritance thing, again whoever created the inheritance has the absolute right to pass on to their heirs as well they should. Not everyone who has money or power are heartless brats.

[ohsherrie]

I usually try not to get too worked up about your stupid comments. But this one is over the top and completely uncalled for.

Oh, but you thought it was just fine for her to say all of the people who have had their livelihoods taken from them through no fault of their own shouldn't have had kids? Why doesn't that surprise me coming from someone with your warped point of view?

By your completely miserable and hopeless posts, It would have been a pretty wise decision if your mother would have never had you.

The warmth of your Christian kindness never fails to warm my heart.

At least scarygirl doesn't pass her days wollowing in her own helplessness. "Who's gonna do this for me?" Who's gonna pay for that for me?"

I haven't seen anybody on here wallowing or asking for any fuckin' handouts. A lot of us are asking for fair and equal representation by our government for all the people. Isn't that one of the principles this government was built on? Instead, ever since Reaganomics became the Republican economic byword to cover whatever bullshit they wanted to pull, it seems that representation goes to the highest bidder.

I'm hearing a lot of the "Let them eat cake" attitude from people on here. Don't forget what happened to the bitch who made that line famous along with all her friends when enough people got fed up enough with the conspicuous excesses of the rich, ruling class and their cavalier attitude towards the deprivation of the lower class. Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

[NealIsGod]

Down South, a lot of people are born into money...they don't earn it themselves. But they seem to think inheriting wealth makes them better than everyone else.

It makes them a hell of a lot luckier!

[ohsherrie]

OK, based on what I've read in this thread and others in response to my posts I've come to these conclusions:

Nobody should try to make a life for their self because if the government doesn't want you to have that life then you don't deserve it.

Nobody should assume that they have enough security in their jobs to have children because if the government doesn't want you to be able to afford those kids then you shouldn't have had them.

Nobody in this country should care about anybody less fortunate because there's no excuse for their being less fortunate.

AND THAT'S THE AMERICAN WAY!!!!

No one's saying that people shouldn't care about others, but at the same time can you really justify a society where wealth is shared? I can't. Please forgive me if I don't remember the differences between communism and socialism, but I believe in a communist society where everyone is essentially the same there are still people, a select few mind you that hold the majority of the assets while the rest are all equally poor. Meaning all those minnions because everything is still controlled by a governmental few in the name of equality HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO SHOT AT ANYTHING BETTER, EVER. Sorry, but I still like our democracy, as flawed as it.

Where the hell, did you come up with that bullshit out of anything I said? Since you like to throw around the labels like "socialism" and "communism", what label do you give a government who takes from the working people to give to the corporate executives? That's what ours is doing. Cake anyone?

[RossValoryRocks]

OK, based on what I've read in this thread and others in response to my posts I've come to these conclusions:

Nobody should try to make a life for their self because if the government doesn't want you to have that life then you don't deserve it.

Nobody should assume that they have enough security in their jobs to have children because if the government doesn't want you to be able to afford those kids then you shouldn't have had them.

Nobody in this country should care about anybody less fortunate because there's no excuse for their being less fortunate.

AND THAT'S THE AMERICAN WAY!!!!

No one's saying that people shouldn't care about others, but at the same time can you really justify a society where wealth is shared? I can't. Please forgive me if I don't remember the differences between communism and socialism, but I believe in a communist society where everyone is essentially the same there are still people, a select few mind you that hold the majority of the assets while the rest are all equally poor. Meaning all those minnions because everything is still controlled by a governmental few in the name of equality HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO SHOT AT ANYTHING BETTER, EVER. Sorry, but I still like our democracy, as flawed as it.

Where the hell, did you come up with that bullshit out of anything I said? Since you like to throw around the labels like "socialism" and "communism", what label do you give a government to takes from the working people to give to the corporate executives? That's what ours is doing. Cake anyone?

To some extent you are right...The American citizens pay far more in income taxes on a total dollar basis than American Companies do. It has been going on for years and years and years...and has nothing to do with Republican or Democrat, it has everything to do with the culture of government.

And no campaign promise from any candidate is going to mean a hill of bean once they have been elected. Any and all campaign promises made by any and all candidates are out and out lies meant to pander to one group or another.

[scarygirl]

OK, based on what I've read in this thread and others in response to my posts I've come to these conclusions:

Nobody should try to make a life for their self because if the government doesn't want you to have that life then you don't deserve it.

Nobody should assume that they have enough security in their jobs to have children because if the government doesn't want you to be able to afford those kids then you shouldn't have had them.

Nobody in this country should care about anybody less fortunate because there's no excuse for their being less fortunate.

AND THAT'S THE AMERICAN WAY!!!!

No one's saying that people shouldn't care about others, but at the same time can you really justify a society where wealth is shared? I can't. Please forgive me if I don't remember the differences between communism and socialism, but I believe in a communist society where everyone is essentially the same there are still people, a select few mind you that hold the majority of the assets while the rest are all equally poor. Meaning all those minnions because everything is still controlled by a governmental few in the name of equality HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO SHOT AT ANYTHING BETTER, EVER. Sorry, but I still like our democracy, as flawed as it.

Where the hell, did you come up with that bullshit out of anything I said? Since you like to throw around the labels like "socialism" and "communism", what label do you give a government who takes from the working people to give to the corporate executives? That's what ours is doing. Cake anyone?

I wasn't throwing out labels, unlike you, whose only intelligent response is to call people heartless, stupid, and naive and for no other reason than they, gasp don't believe exactly as you do.

Yes. I believe wanting a government that provides for all aspects of your livlihood is the same as wanting socialism. THat's my opinion. I didn't say that's how you felt personally. Where the hell do you get off calling me the names above? I have done more to you than debate the issues with you.

[NealIsGod]

To some extent you are right...The American citizens pay far more in income taxes on a total dollar basis than American Companies do. It has been going on for years and years and years...and has nothing to do with Republican or Democrat, it has everything to do with the culture of government.

And the wealthiest Americans pay far less of a percentage of their actual income in taxes than average Americans do. They know how to beat the system.

[Granny]

Democrat and I don't have to explain why!!!!!

[bluejeangirl76]

I'm hearing a lot of the "Let them eat cake" attitude from people on here. Don't forget what happened to the bitch who made that line famous along with all her friends when enough people got fed up enough with the conspicuous excesses of the rich, ruling class and their cavalier attitude towards the deprivation of the lower class. Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

No doubt. Its very very easy for people to generalize and throw everyone into the class of "they aren't living the way I live and therefore are not as good as I am" and toot their own horn about how rightous and upstanding they are. It's quite another to find yourself in such a position. We've all had ups and downs and living through it doesn't make a person a hero or give them the right to use to elevate themselves or put other people down for it.

My best friend in the world has been through some of the worst things I could imagine and never ever uses it to gain a damn thing... not sympathy, not help, not anything. She takes it as "such is life, these things happen and all we can do is handle it and do our best to move on". I know that privately she has bad moments over things, but outwardly you would never know it.

It's just an example of the fact that there are good and decent people who, through no fault of their own, run across really bad times and terrible situations. They had their bills paid, good jobs, awesome insurance for their family, the kids were taken care of and they were able to provide for their family nicely. IN ONE MOVE it all went to shit due to the combination of a medical emergency and a few months later, a job loss. So that makes them irresponsible? They should be out of the street because they had children and suddenly found themselves in a bad spot? Well, let me say thank god they had family to help then, becasue by the mentality here, they should have been told "tough shit, you shouldn't have had those kids." How very Christian, as sherrie pointed out.

It's easy to say all that. But when that condom breaks or the diaphragm fails, let's see if the tune changes.

[RossValoryRocks]

To some extent you are right...The American citizens pay far more in income taxes on a total dollar basis than American Companies do. It has been going on for years and years and years...and has nothing to do with Republican or Democrat, it has everything to do with the culture of government.

And the wealthiest Americans pay far less of a percentage of their actual income in taxes than average Americans do. They know how to beat the system.

The wealthiest also produce more than the average citizen. The top 5 % of earners pay 40% of the income taxes, the top 10% pay 60% of the total income tax collected.

The % doesn't matter...it is the total dollars. I have a friend who makes a ton of money, and I mean a TON of money. His income tax burden per year is probably more than the combinded income tax burden of everyone that has posted in this thread.

Yet he owns a company that employs 100's...be pays for there health insurance, with a minimal input from them, he provides training and outreach programs to his employees.

Shouldn't he be rewarded for creating good paying jobs and increasing the tax base? Tax him and his company too much and watch what happens to those jobs.

Over-taxation NEVER EVER helps bring in more money. It costs jobs, it costs the government money, it takes more from each of us.

[NealIsGod]

To some extent you are right...The American citizens pay far more in income taxes on a total dollar basis than American Companies do. It has been going on for years and years and years...and has nothing to do with Republican or Democrat, it has everything to do with the culture of government.

And the wealthiest Americans pay far less of a percentage of their actual income in taxes than average Americans do. They know how to beat the system.

The wealthiest also produce more than the average citizen. The top 5 % of earners pay 40% of the income taxes, the top 10% pay 60% of the total income tax collected.

The % doesn't matter...it is the total dollars. I have a friend who makes a ton of money, and I mean a TON of money. His income tax burden per year is probably more than the combinded income tax burden of everyone that has posted in this thread.

Yet he owns a company that employs 100's...be pays for there health insurance, with a minimal input from them, he provides training and outreach programs to his employees.

Shouldn't he be rewarded for creating good paying jobs and increasing the tax base? Tax him and his company too much and watch what happens to those jobs.

Over-taxation NEVER EVER helps bring in more money. It costs jobs, it costs the government money, it takes more from each of us.

Yeah, but not every wealthy American creates jobs. But they do stimulate the economy.