OT: Another One Bites The Dust...

[Greg]

So, which one of these candidates have specifically said that they plan on including their religious beliefs into their presidential policy?

[Barb]

On another note... all these liberals up in arms over people being religious in their own lives running for office.... what's the deal with all the Dems campaigning in churches? I almost think that you are all okay with that because you know they don't really live it and are just BSing the dumb church goers.

[STORY_TELLER]

You have to wonder how much of the decision was made based on religion and how much it was based on other issues (first-strike, economic, revenge, etc). I mean really, let's look at political history and all the many mistakes all leaders have made. If you are being 100% honest, how many of them can you attribute to religion?

There's no way to know what's in someone's heart or mind for sure, but if I have a guy on a campaign trail touting his religious beliefs, I'm going to have to assume those beliefs are going to affect his decision making in office.

An office which has a measure of power over how I live my life.

That being the case, no way I'm voting for that guy.

Granted, he could lie and hide his religious beliefs just as easily as he touts them. I can only judge based on what I see and hear. I just know I'm not going with a religious zealot (Huckabee).

Extremism is wrong in any direction. No one way is the right way. I'm neither conservative nor liberal. I make my decisions on a case by case basis and I use morality, not religion, as the source for my choices.

I could give two shits what a guy in the 3rd century wrote in a book. He was just as human as I am and just as flawed as I am. Just because he wrote it down doesn't make him right and I'm certainly not going to make public policy based on what he wrote.

[bluejeangirl76]

nor do we need ANY kind of preacher.

Mark my words. Religion is going to be the downfall of humanity.

And you have an even better point. Definitely leave the religion home and keep it the fuck out of politics and policy.

Amen.

Amen twice. Belongs at home.
It's a personal matter, NOT a political one.

Let's be honest. When you are running for president, nothing is completely personal. We look to people's beliefs and past actions to help determine what kind of leader they will be. Look at the Democrat side. It's very difficult to know how they will lead as they have not been senators all that long and never served prior. Obama keeps saying "I did not vote for the war", yet he wasn't even a senator then and had as much opportunity to vote for it as I did. So we look at other things. Did they run a business, how was Hilary as first lady, have they ever engaged in illegal activities, what are their beliefs and are they in line with mine, how have they managed their personal life, etc.

One question. You have Hitler standing there, and you are unaware of his beliefs. You have Romney standing there, and you have no idea of his beliefs. Who wins? Well, if this were prior to Hitler's insane acts, he wins hands down. For me, I would have liked the opportunity to vet out what he believed.

I agree with you on that Mem, but choosing who to give your vote to is just as personal as your religious beliefs, and combining the two - still personal. I respect that. You can vote for a person for any reason you want to, really... "Obama's cute, I'm voting for him...."

But having said religious beliefs of said candiates (be they senators, congresspeople, judges or the President) leaking into lawmaking... i.e. gay rights, medical research, medical practices... no way. That's what I mean by it belongs at home and not in the House and Senate.

[STORY_TELLER]

So, which one of these candidates have specifically said that they plan on including their religious beliefs into their presidential policy?

I'm not even going to dignify this with an answer.

[Memorex]

I too have to choose the lesser evil and it's been that way my whole life.

I've thought a lot about this recently. It's striking the differences we all fight about, differences that are truly dividing this country. It would be equally striking to reflect on all those things we as Americans have come to wholly agree on. We had a brief, way too brief, sense of that after 9/11. But you take those hot-button issues, just a few of them, and it often feels like the country can't even function. However, if we all took a step back and look, this country does live and breathe every day in a pretty remarkable way. And you find people on all sides of the issues running this country fairly well.

I was looking at some of the budget numbers the other day. It is simply awe inspiring to look at the dollars we spend helping others all over the world. And that's not a Democrat or Republican thing, that's an American thing, a human thing. And while I am not overly religious, and I feel the numbers should be up or down depending, I acknowledge that it is people of faith that have reached out to help others more than any other group, hands down.

My family is not Mormon, but when my dad left my mom alone with six kids and we were about as dirt poor as we could be, the only people that came and helped us were Mormons. They were driven to do that not only because it was right, but because their faith taught them that. Maybe this country would be better served to learn that kind of belief without tying it to an Almighty figure, but in absence of that, we benefited from their faith.

Romney’s religion should matter to those that it matters to, and not to those who could care less. I guess that’s my point.

[Barb]

I too have to choose the lesser evil and it's been that way my whole life.

I've thought a lot about this recently. It's striking the differences we all fight about, differences that are truly dividing this country. It would be equally striking to reflect on all those things we as Americans have come to wholly agree on. We had a brief, way too brief, sense of that after 9/11. But you take those hot-button issues, just a few of them, and it often feels like the country can't even function. However, if we all took a step back and look, this country does live and breathe every day in a pretty remarkable way. And you find people on all sides of the issues running this country fairly well.

I was looking at some of the budget numbers the other day. It is simply awe inspiring to look at the dollars we spend helping others all over the world. And that's not a Democrat or Republican thing, that's an American thing, a human thing. And while I am not overly religious, and I feel the numbers should be up or down depending, I acknowledge that it is people of faith that have reached out to help others more than any other group, hands down.

My family is not Mormon, but when my dad left my mom alone with six kids and we were about as dirt poor as we could be, the only people that came and helped us were Mormons. They were driven to do that not only because it was right, but because their faith taught them that. Maybe this country would be better served to learn that kind of belief without tying it to an Almighty figure, but in absence of that, we benefited from their faith.

Romney’s religion should matter to those that it matters to, and not to those who could care less. I guess that’s my point.

What a great post! I also believe we all have more in common as Americans then we have differences.

I am not Mormon either, but every Mormon I have known has been an outstanding and very kind human being.

[Memorex]

How someone feels on an issue is not always tied to their religion. I know plenty of people who are pro-choice that are Christians and many who are pro-life that have no real religious beliefs. Same with Death Penalty, gay rights, etc.

I'm sitting next to a guy right now who is a devoted Democrat, yet if you try and take his guns away or tax him any more, he is going to go ballistic. Obviously, devout Christians feel more strongly about abortion and gays than say an atheist. But that's not the only criteria. Religion is just one aspect of an overall belief system.

Also, it was not Romney that was always touting his Mormonhood, it was people against it and he had to answer. Obama faces the same issue with his beliefs. He doesn't bring them up, he just answers when someone else does.

Huck - that's a different story.

[STORY_TELLER]

I too have to choose the lesser evil and it's been that way my whole life.

I've thought a lot about this recently. It's striking the differences we all fight about, differences that are truly dividing this country. It would be equally striking to reflect on all those things we as Americans have come to wholly agree on. We had a brief, way too brief, sense of that after 9/11. But you take those hot-button issues, just a few of them, and it often feels like the country can't even function. However, if we all took a step back and look, this country does live and breathe every day in a pretty remarkable way. And you find people on all sides of the issues running this country fairly well.

I was looking at some of the budget numbers the other day. It is simply awe inspiring to look at the dollars we spend helping others all over the world. And that's not a Democrat or Republican thing, that's an American thing, a human thing. And while I am not overly religious, and I feel the numbers should be up or down depending, I acknowledge that it is people of faith that have reached out to help others more than any other group, hands down.

My family is not Mormon, but when my dad left my mom alone with six kids and we were about as dirt poor as we could be, the only people that came and helped us were Mormons. They were driven to do that not only because it was right, but because their faith taught them that. Maybe this country would be better served to learn that kind of belief without tying it to an Almighty figure, but in absence of that, we benefited from their faith.

Romney’s religion should matter to those that it matters to, and not to those who could care less. I guess that’s my point.

I'm very sorry for the hardship you had growing up. The other people in your community should be ashamed of themselves. I would suggest that the people who came to your aid didn't do so purely because they were mormon, but because they were good natured people who took their moral obligations seriously.

Here's my point:
There's good and bad with most things, but there is no bad with pure morality. Religion has morality, but it also has other things which inspire others to do immoral things and they usually do it in the name of that religion.

Morals taught absent of the tribalistic religious baggage is pure and cuts across all backgrounds of race or gender. It's the religious baggage I take issue with, not the morals.

...And with that, I have to get back to work. If you want to continue the debate/discussion, I'll try and check in later.

[Rockindeano]

How someone feels on an issue is not always tied to their religion. I know plenty of people who are pro-choice that are Christians and many who are pro-life that have no real religious beliefs. Same with Death Penalty, gay rights, etc.

I'm sitting next to a guy right now who is a devoted Democrat, yet if you try and take his guns away or tax him any more, he is going to go ballistic. Obviously, devout Christians feel more strongly about abortion and gays than say an atheist. But that's not the only criteria. Religion is just one aspect of an overall belief system.

Also, it was not Romney that was always touting his Mormonhood, it was people against it and he had to answer. Obama faces the same issue with his beliefs. He doesn't bring them up, he just answers when someone else does.

Huck - that's a different story.

Mike rules. No not Huckabee, but Mike the poster.

When are we going to Kings game and getting hammered?

[StyxCollector]

If we lived in a situation like Germany/Hitler, then I see your point. America will never be like that and you can express all the fears you want, but socially we have gone in completly the opposite direction.

It could happen, but I doubt it. We're closer to it than not. I mean, the fact that the balance of power is out of whack says it all. And look at fuck ups like Abu Grabe, etc. The America of the 40s that fought WW II is doing stuff that we fought against.

THings like anti-Semitism are on the rise. This stuff is still happening folks.

Now, I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. The US is a great country. But I think things have changed over the years. The proverbial carpet doesn't match the drapes anymore the way it used to.

[Greg]

So, which one of these candidates have specifically said that they plan on including their religious beliefs into their presidential policy?

I'm not even going to dignify this with an answer.

Why not? I sincerely wanted to know if a particular candidate was specifically stating that he/she was planning on implementing their religious views into their presidential agenda. Otherwise, I don't really see what the big fuss is all about. I mean, if it's the sentiment that someone who is Christian, Catholic, or otherwise cannot be President because of their religion, then I'd file that under discrimination. If it's out of fear that they might implement their religious personal views into the presidency, it's still discrimination. If in fact that a candidate has specifically said, "I plan on submitting a bill to congress which states that by 2012, every American must attend X number of hours of church," then I could understand the pissing and moaning. With that, I'd say, just don't vote for the guy/gal.

Just because someone says they're a Christian doesn't mean they have no right to run for political office.

[Memorex]

If we lived in a situation like Germany/Hitler, then I see your point. America will never be like that and you can express all the fears you want, but socially we have gone in completly the opposite direction.

It could happen, but I doubt it. We're closer to it than not. I mean, the fact that the balance of power is out of whack says it all. And look at fuck ups like Abu Grabe, etc. The America of the 40s that fought WW II is doing stuff that we fought against.

THings like anti-Semitism are on the rise. This stuff is still happening folks.

Now, I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. The US is a great country. But I think things have changed over the years. The proverbial carpet doesn't match the drapes anymore the way it used to.

I 100% disagree. There is no way our society, as diverse as it is, would back anything like that. There is too much divide in this country for any one person to garner that kind of support, and it only widens as we go. We almost have the perfect checks and balances. Even within the military, there are vast differences. No way we are closer.

[Memorex]

How someone feels on an issue is not always tied to their religion. I know plenty of people who are pro-choice that are Christians and many who are pro-life that have no real religious beliefs. Same with Death Penalty, gay rights, etc.

I'm sitting next to a guy right now who is a devoted Democrat, yet if you try and take his guns away or tax him any more, he is going to go ballistic. Obviously, devout Christians feel more strongly about abortion and gays than say an atheist. But that's not the only criteria. Religion is just one aspect of an overall belief system.

Also, it was not Romney that was always touting his Mormonhood, it was people against it and he had to answer. Obama faces the same issue with his beliefs. He doesn't bring them up, he just answers when someone else does.

Huck - that's a different story.

Mike rules. No not Huckabee, but Mike the poster.

When are we going to Kings game and getting hammered?

I'm ready man!

[Enigma869]

You're going to tell me, if his last name wasn't Bush, that this guy, based on his history of actions and mismanagement would have been voted in as a Janitor let alone Governor or President?

You could certainly make the same argument in Hillary's case. For the record, I'm certainly not referring to anything she has mismanaged. Her entire viability as a candidate is based upon the fact that her last name is Clinton!


John from Boston

[Enigma869]

Extremism is wrong in any direction. No one way is the right way. I'm neither conservative nor liberal. I make my decisions on a case by case basis and I use morality, not religion, as the source for my choices.

This is as good of a post as I've seen in this thread! I couldn't agree with your sentiment more! I've actually always believed that people who vote along party lines are simply excusing themselves from the responsibility of actually paying attention to the issues at hand, and then voting accordingly! I will NEVER understand why religion matters so much! Like the GREAT George Carlin once said..."Religion is the biggest bullshit stories on the planet"!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o (This is a VERY funny thing to listen to...Be warned, if you're a "bible thumper", you may not appreciate this humor!)

John from Boston

[Rockindeano]

You're going to tell me, if his last name wasn't Bush, that this guy, based on his history of actions and mismanagement would have been voted in as a Janitor let alone Governor or President?

You could certainly make the same argument in Hillary's case. For the record, I'm certainly not referring to anything she has mismanaged. Her entire viability as a candidate is based upon the fact that her last name is Clinton!


John from Boston

Yeah, 6 years as US Senator, she sat on Armed Services Committee, Environmental and Public Works Committee, and also Health, Education and Labor and Pensions committee. Active first lady, she was involved in a lot of stuff.

She is not only capable, but more experienced than Obama.

[Barb]

Extremism is wrong in any direction. No one way is the right way. I'm neither conservative nor liberal. I make my decisions on a case by case basis and I use morality, not religion, as the source for my choices.

This is as good of a post as I've seen in this thread! I couldn't agree with your sentiment more! I've actually always believed that people who vote along party lines are simply excusing themselves from the responsibility of actually paying attention to the issues at hand, and then voting accordingly! I will NEVER understand why religion matters so much! Like the GREAT George Carlin once said..."Religion is the biggest bullshit stories on the planet"!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o (This is a VERY funny thing to listen to...Be warned, if you're a "bible thumper", you may not appreciate this humor!)

John from Boston

I'm not a bible thumper or even very religious, but I hate to see people mocked for their religious beliefs. I know each religion thinks they are right and so do the atheists who mock them. Call me old school, but I find that kind of humor tasteless and disrespectful. George Carlin doesn't have all the answers either.

[Rockindeano]

I'm not a bible thumper or even very religious, but I hate to see people mocked for their religious beliefs. I know each religion thinks they are right and so do the atheists who mock them. Call me old school, but I find that kind of humor tasteless and disrespectful. George Carlin doesn't have all the answers either.

Another great post by Barb.

Carlin is a comedian you know, and he is right to say religion causes more fighting than it cures.

[Enigma869]

Just because someone says they're a Christian doesn't mean they have no right to run for political office.

While I certainly agree with this, that has never been my issue. My point of view is that someone being "Christian" doesn't mean ANYTHING to me, in terms of a presidential candidate, and it definitely doesn't make them any more qualified to be president. The really shocking thing is that if you look at polls on this issue, many Americans actually do believe that it matters, and that someone running around and calling themselves "Christian" is much more qualified to run the free world than someone who isn't!


John from Boston

[Enigma869]

I'm not a bible thumper or even very religious, but I hate to see people mocked for their religious beliefs. I know each religion thinks they are right and so do the atheists who mock them. Call me old school, but I find that kind of humor tasteless and disrespectful. George Carlin doesn't have all the answers either.

I'm not really sure what your point is. I don't recall saying that George Carlin had "all the answers". As Dean pointed out...The guy is a COMEDIAN! His job in life is to poke fun at the life he sees around him. I'm personally NEVER going to criticize a comedian for making people laugh or actually think (which I think Carlin does a lot of). While most "Christians" may find it offensive, I went to church EVERY Sunday as a kid growing up (and for the record, it was a Christian church), and still was able to laugh about it.


John from Boston

[Barb]

I'm not a bible thumper or even very religious, but I hate to see people mocked for their religious beliefs. I know each religion thinks they are right and so do the atheists who mock them. Call me old school, but I find that kind of humor tasteless and disrespectful. George Carlin doesn't have all the answers either.

I'm not really sure what your point is. I don't recall saying that George Carlin had "all the answers". As Dean pointed out...The guy is a COMEDIAN! His job in life is to poke fun at the life he sees around him. I'm personally NEVER going to criticize a comedian for making people laugh or actually think (which I think Carlin does a lot of). While most "Christians" may find it offensive, I went to church EVERY Sunday as a kid growing up (and for the record, it was a Christian church), and still was able to laugh about it.


John from Boston

My point I guess is that I think comedians who attack/mock relgious people are tacky (and arrogant) and that Mr. Carlin as an atheist probably isn't right either.

[Enigma869]

Yeah, 6 years as US Senator, she sat on Armed Services Committee, Environmental and Public Works Committee, and also Health, Education and Labor and Pensions committee. Active first lady, she was involved in a lot of stuff.

She is not only capable, but more experienced than Obama.

She may very well be "more experienced" than Obama, but McCain is more "experienced" than the two of them, combined, and I'm not voting for him! My larger point is that Hillary is where she is because of who her husband is. She wouldn't be the carpet bagging Senator from New York, if she wasn't married to Bill Clinton!


John from Boston

[Enigma869]

My point I guess is that I think comedians who attack/mock relgious people are tacky (and arrogant) and that Mr. Carlin as an atheist probably isn't right either.

You need to lighten up a bit! Listen, I have NOTHING in common with the character Archie Bunker on "All in the Family", and have NEVER had a racist bone in my body! That said, it's the most brilliant show I've ever seen on TV, and I piss myself laughing, every time I watch it! Some of us need some levity in our lives, to escape all the madness. You're obviously not a fan of "Mr. Carlin", but I personally think he's a brilliant guy. I didn't say that I agreed with, or subscribed to everything he believes in, but at least he makes people stop and think, and more importantly, LAUGH! I certainly wasn't suggesting that George Carlin is the voice of morality in America. As I said, the guy is simply a comedian that some of us are actually entertained and amused by!


John from Boston

[Barb]

My point I guess is that I think comedians who attack/mock relgious people are tacky (and arrogant) and that Mr. Carlin as an atheist probably isn't right either.

You need to lighten up a bit! Listen, I have NOTHING in common with the character Archie Bunker on "All in the Family", and have NEVER had a racist bone in my body! That said, it's the most brilliant show I've ever seen on TV, and I piss myself laughing, every time I watch it! Some of us need some levity in our lives, to escape all the madness. You're obviously not a fan of "Mr. Carlin", but I personally think he's a brilliant guy. I didn't say that I agreed with, or subscribed to everything he believes in, but at least he makes people stop and think, and more importantly, LAUGH! I certainly wasn't suggesting that George Carlin is the voice of morality in America. As I said, the guy is simply a comedian that some of us are actually entertained and amused by!


John from Boston

I laught at almost all comedy, but that particular area I don't find funny.

[tammy]

I too have to choose the lesser evil and it's been that way my whole life.

I've thought a lot about this recently. It's striking the differences we all fight about, differences that are truly dividing this country. It would be equally striking to reflect on all those things we as Americans have come to wholly agree on. We had a brief, way too brief, sense of that after 9/11. But you take those hot-button issues, just a few of them, and it often feels like the country can't even function. However, if we all took a step back and look, this country does live and breathe every day in a pretty remarkable way. And you find people on all sides of the issues running this country fairly well.

I was looking at some of the budget numbers the other day. It is simply awe inspiring to look at the dollars we spend helping others all over the world. And that's not a Democrat or Republican thing, that's an American thing, a human thing. And while I am not overly religious, and I feel the numbers should be up or down depending, I acknowledge that it is people of faith that have reached out to help others more than any other group, hands down.

My family is not Mormon, but when my dad left my mom alone with six kids and we were about as dirt poor as we could be, the only people that came and helped us were Mormons. They were driven to do that not only because it was right, but because their faith taught them that. Maybe this country would be better served to learn that kind of belief without tying it to an Almighty figure, but in absence of that, we benefited from their faith.

Romney’s religion should matter to those that it matters to, and not to those who could care less. I guess that’s my point.

Same thing happened here...my dad suddenly deserted my mom with six kids & no money, although no one came to help (except welfare). Interesting discussion thread to read here...makes you think about how morals even began.

[Greg]

Just because someone says they're a Christian doesn't mean they have no right to run for political office.

While I certainly agree with this, that has never been my issue. My point of view is that someone being "Christian" doesn't mean ANYTHING to me, in terms of a presidential candidate, and it definitely doesn't make them any more qualified to be president. The really shocking thing is that if you look at polls on this issue, many Americans actually do believe that it matters, and that someone running around and calling themselves "Christian" is much more qualified to run the free world than someone who isn't!


John from Boston

I agree 100%! It doesn't make them any more qualified to be president. At the same time, it also shouldn't disqualify them to be president.

[SteveForever]

"The thing that sets the American Christian apart from all other people in the world is, he will die on his feet before he'll live on his knees."

George Washington

[ohsherrie]

"The thing that sets the American Christian apart from all other people in the world is, he will die on his feet before he'll live on his knees."

George Washington

I'm sure the British, French or Australian Christian is just as proud of his God and Country as the American one and I think the Muslims could probably quote something similar from one of their leaders. Whatever the religion, it's the same hyperbole.

[mistiejourney]

Just to be clear - I am a firm believer in separation of church and state. I also take comfort, maybe for my own shortcomings, that generally our leaders have faith in a higher power. Maybe it will keep their hand off the button.

Mormon, Baptist, woman, black, Muslim - Actually a damn great moment in our country's history if you ask me.

Actually, I was thinking that the other day! We've come farther than we give ourselves credit for.