To you "fiscal conservatives" who are so afraid of

[ohsherrie]

OK, if you don't care about the human issues, let's look at it from this perspective.

The middle class who have been earning from $50 - $150 thousand a year have been paying taxes. They may not pay as many $$ in taxes as the corporate officers who earn $50 - $150 million, but due to tax loopholes that are only available to the wealthy, they pay a disproportionate % of their earnings.

Now, due to the economic policies of the Bush administration the earnings and therefore the tax $$ paid by the middle class have gone down dramatically. In fact many have dropped into the category that is thought of as impoverished and paying no taxes.

If the current economic policies were to continue the tax $$ paid by these people who are losing their jobs daily would continue to diminish.

Who do you think is going to take up the slack?

[Rip Rokken]

Who do you think is going to take up the slack?

These two guys...

[conversationpc]

OK, if you don't care about the human issues, let's look at it from this perspective.

Will you stop with the typical BS about conservatives not caring about "human issues"? I suppose we probably want old people to die, poor children to starve, and families to be broken up and thrown into the street?

[nolippin]

You know, I'm a Democrat, but I'm sick of your blathering on. Why the hell don't you get a damn job and STFU!! You obviously aren't going to pick up anybody's slack.

OK, if you don't care about the human issues, let's look at it from this perspective.

The middle class who have been earning from $50 - $150 thousand a year have been paying taxes. They may not pay as many $$ in taxes as the corporate officers who earn $50 - $150 million, but due to tax loopholes that are only available to the wealthy, they pay a disproportionate % of their earnings.

Now, due to the economic policies of the Bush administration the earnings and therefore the tax $$ paid by the middle class have gone down dramatically. In fact many have dropped into the category that is thought of as impoverished and paying no taxes.

If the current economic policies were to continue the tax $$ paid by these people who are losing their jobs daily would continue to diminish.

Who do you think is going to take up the slack?

[conversationpc]

You know, I'm a Democrat, but I'm sick of your blathering on. Why the hell don't you get a damn job and STFU!! You obviously aren't going to pick up anybody's slack.

[ohsherrie]

You know, I'm a Democrat, but I'm sick of your blathering on. Why the hell don't you get a damn job and STFU!! You obviously aren't going to pick up anybody's slack.

I don't know who the fuck you are or who you think I am, but you're way out of line with this. I'm not going to explain why because my personal circumstances are none of your business.

[Rhiannon]

You know, I'm a Democrat, but I'm sick of your blathering on. Why the hell don't you get a damn job and STFU!! You obviously aren't going to pick up anybody's slack.

Liberal fight!!!

[nolippin]

I'm no more out of line than you are. I don't care who the fuck you are. I work for a damn living and no way in Hell should a dime of my hard earned money go to support the likes of you.

If you spent half as much time trying to find work you are capable of doing as you do mouthing off behind a keyboard all damn day, you might have an ounce of credibility.

You know, I'm a Democrat, but I'm sick of your blathering on. Why the hell don't you get a damn job and STFU!! You obviously aren't going to pick up anybody's slack.

I don't know who the fuck you are or who you think I am, but you're way out of line with this. I'm not going to explain why because my personal circumstances are none of your business.

[ohsherrie]

OK, if you don't care about the human issues, let's look at it from this perspective.

Will you stop with the typical BS about conservatives not caring about "human issues"? I suppose we probably want old people to die, poor children to starve, and families to be broken up and thrown into the street?

Why would I think otherwise? All I've read from most of the conservatives on here is that it's "root little pigs or die" or "let them eat cake" when it comes to the millions of people who have lost their livelihoods so that hundreds of CEOs and CFOs can make billions.

[ohsherrie]

I'm no more out of line than you are. I don't care who the fuck you are. I work for a damn living and no way in Hell should a dime of my hard earned money go to support the likes of you.

If you spent half as much time trying to find work you are capable of doing as you do mouthing off behind a keyboard all damn day, you might have an ounce of credibility.

You know, I'm a Democrat, but I'm sick of your blathering on. Why the hell don't you get a damn job and STFU!! You obviously aren't going to pick up anybody's slack.

I don't know who the fuck you are or who you think I am, but you're way out of line with this. I'm not going to explain why because my personal circumstances are none of your business.

You know nothing about me and the conclusions you've apparently drawn are not only wrong, they're obviously intended to be inflamatory like all of your other posts on here.

Fuck you. I won't be reading, let alone responding to any more of your posts. You're a parasite feeding off of the hositlity you create on this messageboard.

I'm through with you now.

[nolippin]

Typical of most of your responses. You don't speak for Democrats. Stop acting as though you do. You have one opinion and its no more valid than anyone elses.

Most of the people I know and work with are Democrats, and you are an embarassment to us all.

I'm no more out of line than you are. I don't care who the fuck you are. I work for a damn living and no way in Hell should a dime of my hard earned money go to support the likes of you.

If you spent half as much time trying to find work you are capable of doing as you do mouthing off behind a keyboard all damn day, you might have an ounce of credibility.

You know, I'm a Democrat, but I'm sick of your blathering on. Why the hell don't you get a damn job and STFU!! You obviously aren't going to pick up anybody's slack.

I don't know who the fuck you are or who you think I am, but you're way out of line with this. I'm not going to explain why because my personal circumstances are none of your business.

You know nothing about me and the conclusions you've apparently drawn are not only wrong, they're obviously intended to be inflamatory like all of your other posts on here.

Fuck you. I won't be reading, let alone responding to any more of your posts. You're a parasite feeding off of the hositlity you create on this messageboard.

I'm through with you now.

[Andrew]

Easy folks....the politics here is getting a bit much - especially when there is a POLITICAL FORUM. Yes?

[Rhiannon]

Easy folks....the politics here is getting a bit much - especially when there is a POLITICAL FORUM. Yes?

[nolippin]

Perhaps these threads could be moved down there, Andrew??? It's getting to a point where you have to wade through threads like this to find the music threads.

Easy folks....the politics here is getting a bit much - especially when there is a POLITICAL FORUM. Yes?

[conversationpc]

Why would I think otherwise? All I've read from most of the conservatives on here is that it's "root little pigs or die" or "let them eat cake" when it comes to the millions of people who have lost their livelihoods so that hundreds of CEOs and CFOs can make billions.

That's a load of bullshit. What we've said is people are responsible for their own livelihoods. That doesn't mean people are left to fend for themselves but it's not the government's responsibility to do that for people. The government's responsibility is to get the hell out of the way so people CAN fend for themselves and to allow people to help others who can't do so.

You're the most closed-minded ass on the forum. I disagree vehemently with other folks like Deano, TNC, 7 Wishes, etc., and all of them are able to find some room for agreement and are more open-minded than you are.

[Andrew]

Perhaps these threads could be moved down there, Andrew??? It's getting to a point where you have to wade through threads like this to find the music threads.

Easy folks....the politics here is getting a bit much - especially when there is a POLITICAL FORUM. Yes?

I'm enjoying some of the chatter, but let's keep it to a few threads at the most.

[bluejeangirl76]

Perhaps these threads could be moved down there, Andrew??? It's getting to a point where you have to wade through threads like this to find the music threads.

And when you do get to them, they're all Dokken threads! (love ya Rip!)

[Red13JoePa]

OK, if you don't care about the human issues, let's look at it from this perspective.

The middle class who have been earning from $50 - $150 thousand a year have been paying taxes. They may not pay as many $$ in taxes as the corporate officers who earn $50 - $150 million, but due to tax loopholes that are only available to the wealthy, they pay a disproportionate % of their earnings.

Now, due to the economic policies of the Bush administration the earnings and therefore the tax $$ paid by the middle class have gone down dramatically. In fact many have dropped into the category that is thought of as impoverished and paying no taxes.

If the current economic policies were to continue the tax $$ paid by these people who are losing their jobs daily would continue to diminish.

Who do you think is going to take up the slack?

I get a boot in the ass out of how "human issues" hit home as all Bush's fault when it comes to YO'
UR bill payments yet you're in favor of poor people (who are presumably fathoms beneathi you) doing abortions so their children don't defoul your precious space.

[Rip Rokken]

Perhaps these threads could be moved down there, Andrew??? It's getting to a point where you have to wade through threads like this to find the music threads.

And when you do get to them, they're all Dokken threads! (love ya Rip!)

Yeah, but the cool thing is, take all those threads and weave them together, and you get a beautiful full-color tapestry of Don Dokken!

Love U 2 btw.... though I didn't like their last few albums. Bono should retire.

[mistiejourney]

OK, if you don't care about the human issues, let's look at it from this perspective.

The middle class who have been earning from $50 - $150 thousand a year have been paying taxes. They may not pay as many $$ in taxes as the corporate officers who earn $50 - $150 million, but due to tax loopholes that are only available to the wealthy, they pay a disproportionate % of their earnings.

Now, due to the economic policies of the Bush administration the earnings and therefore the tax $$ paid by the middle class have gone down dramatically. In fact many have dropped into the category that is thought of as impoverished and paying no taxes.

If the current economic policies were to continue the tax $$ paid by these people who are losing their jobs daily would continue to diminish.

Who do you think is going to take up the slack?

Sherrie, you and I are on opposite sides of the political spectrum, but it's debates like this that keep us thinking. Honestly, I think every single one of us wants what is best for the country and our future, but we have very different ideas on how that should be done. I'm a conservative Republican, and yeah, those who are wealthy can find a million loopholes because those loopholes exist. Hell, I take advantage of every loop hole I can to decrease my taxes and I'm in the middle class you describe.

But it shouldn't mean you get attacked for wanting to start a debate or feeling passionately about an issue. Obviously both sides feel passionately about things this go-round.

Just sayin'

[RedWingFan]

You know, I'm a Democrat, but I'm sick of your blathering on. Why the hell don't you get a damn job and STFU!! You obviously aren't going to pick up anybody's slack.

I'm no more out of line than you are. I don't care who the fuck you are. I work for a damn living and no way in Hell should a dime of my hard earned money go to support the likes of you.

If you spent half as much time trying to find work you are capable of doing as you do mouthing off behind a keyboard all damn day, you might have an ounce of credibility.

Typical of most of your responses. You don't speak for Democrats. Stop acting as though you do. You have one opinion and its no more valid than anyone elses.

Most of the people I know and work with are Democrats, and you are an embarassment to us all.

Check out nolippin' coming out of nowhere and cracking ohsherrie across the melon with a 2x4 These 3 posts may be the 3 posts of the year.
I think nolippin may actually be Zell Miller!!!

[RossValoryRocks]

OK, if you don't care about the human issues, let's look at it from this perspective.

The middle class who have been earning from $50 - $150 thousand a year have been paying taxes. They may not pay as many $$ in taxes as the corporate officers who earn $50 - $150 million, but due to tax loopholes that are only available to the wealthy, they pay a disproportionate % of their earnings.

Now, due to the economic policies of the Bush administration the earnings and therefore the tax $$ paid by the middle class have gone down dramatically. In fact many have dropped into the category that is thought of as impoverished and paying no taxes.

If the current economic policies were to continue the tax $$ paid by these people who are losing their jobs daily would continue to diminish.

Who do you think is going to take up the slack?

All you are doing in this statement is stirring class envy. Most of those people making $50 - $150 million (and MOST of them don't BTW) work 100 hour weeks for that money. Are they over paid...depends on perspective. They give up an aweful lot to be paid that well. There is NO WAY a person making that kind of money pays less in actual taxes than someone making $50k - $150k/Year

I don't care what a CEO makes, that is a private business transaction between he/she and the company. It's NONE OF MY BUSINESS, nor yours.

Why should a person making more money be taxed at a higher percentage? To make it fair???? Life isn't fair.

The top 5% of earners in this country pay a majority of the income taxes, 53.8% to be exact as of 2002. ( http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/incometax ... ysmost.htm )

I don't care about disproportionate income. In a healthy CAPITALIST society and free market economy the gap between "rich' and "poor" grows not because of the poor getting poorer but the rich getting richer and more people achieving the rich status.

So what do you propose as a fair "tax" on "rich" people?? 50% of their income? 70%??? 90??? What?

A graduated income tax is a cornerstone of Marxist tax theory. Congratulations...you're a communist!

You do know that EVERY time you lower the marginal tax rates the amount of money coming into the Government increases right? The problem is when the government doesn't spend responsibly. One thing I greatly dislike about President Bush, he isn't a fiscal conservative.

A true fiscal conservative wants lower taxes AND, probably most importantly, LOWER spending.

Blaming President Bush for CEO's making $50 - $150 million per year, and that the Bush administration fiscal policy is causing job loss is not only disengenuous, it is a completely moronic statement.

Clinton, with a Democrat controlled congress mind you, passed NAFTA. President Bush actually tried to protect our Steel industry from dumping by China et al, and the US was taken to the WTO and the WTO told us to stop the tarrifs. As much as I dislike the President's fiscal policy on spending, he has done a lot to protect our industry.

The current economic issues are the result of people speculating in oil, the housing market and so on, not because of any of the fiscal policies of our government.

[Saint John]

OK, if you don't care about the human issues, let's look at it from this perspective.

The middle class who have been earning from $50 - $150 thousand a year have been paying taxes. They may not pay as many $$ in taxes as the corporate officers who earn $50 - $150 million, but due to tax loopholes that are only available to the wealthy, they pay a disproportionate % of their earnings.

Now, due to the economic policies of the Bush administration the earnings and therefore the tax $$ paid by the middle class have gone down dramatically. In fact many have dropped into the category that is thought of as impoverished and paying no taxes.

If the current economic policies were to continue the tax $$ paid by these people who are losing their jobs daily would continue to diminish.

Who do you think is going to take up the slack?

All you are doing in this statement is stirring class envy. Most of those people making $50 - $150 million (and MOST of them don't BTW) work 100 hour weeks for that money. Are they over paid...depends on perspective. They give up an aweful lot to be paid that well. There is NO WAY a person making that kind of money pays less in actual taxes than someone making $50k - $150k/Year

I don't care what a CEO makes, that is a private business transaction between he/she and the company. It's NONE OF MY BUSINESS, nor yours.

Why should a person making more money be taxed at a higher percentage? To make it fair???? Life isn't fair.

The top 5% of earners in this country pay a majority of the income taxes, 53.8% to be exact as of 2002. ( http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/incometax ... ysmost.htm )

I don't care about disproportionate income. In a healthy CAPITALIST society and free market economy the gap between "rich' and "poor" grows not because of the poor getting poorer but the rich getting richer and more people achieving the rich status.

So what do you propose as a fair "tax" on "rich" people?? 50% of their income? 70%??? 90??? What?

A graduated income tax is a cornerstone of Marxist tax theory. Congratulations...you're a communist!

You do know that EVERY time you lower the marginal tax rates the amount of money coming into the Government increases right? The problem is when the government doesn't spend responsibly. One thing I greatly dislike about President Bush, he isn't a fiscal conservative.

A true fiscal conservative wants lower taxes AND, probably most importantly, LOWER spending.

Blaming President Bush for CEO's making $50 - $150 million per year, and that the Bush administration fiscal policy is causing job loss is not only disengenuous, it is a completely moronic statement.

Clinton, with a Democrat controlled congress mind you, passed NAFTA. President Bush actually tried to protect our Steel industry from dumping by China et al, and the US was taken to the WTO and the WTO told us to stop the tarrifs. As much as I dislike the President's fiscal policy on spending, he has done a lot to protect our industry.

The current economic issues are the result of people speculating in oil, the housing market and so on, not because of any of the fiscal policies of our government.

Stu, I love you, man.

[RossValoryRocks]

OK, if you don't care about the human issues, let's look at it from this perspective.

The middle class who have been earning from $50 - $150 thousand a year have been paying taxes. They may not pay as many $$ in taxes as the corporate officers who earn $50 - $150 million, but due to tax loopholes that are only available to the wealthy, they pay a disproportionate % of their earnings.

Now, due to the economic policies of the Bush administration the earnings and therefore the tax $$ paid by the middle class have gone down dramatically. In fact many have dropped into the category that is thought of as impoverished and paying no taxes.

If the current economic policies were to continue the tax $$ paid by these people who are losing their jobs daily would continue to diminish.

Who do you think is going to take up the slack?

All you are doing in this statement is stirring class envy. Most of those people making $50 - $150 million (and MOST of them don't BTW) work 100 hour weeks for that money. Are they over paid...depends on perspective. They give up an aweful lot to be paid that well. There is NO WAY a person making that kind of money pays less in actual taxes than someone making $50k - $150k/Year

I don't care what a CEO makes, that is a private business transaction between he/she and the company. It's NONE OF MY BUSINESS, nor yours.

Why should a person making more money be taxed at a higher percentage? To make it fair???? Life isn't fair.

The top 5% of earners in this country pay a majority of the income taxes, 53.8% to be exact as of 2002. ( http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/incometax ... ysmost.htm )

I don't care about disproportionate income. In a healthy CAPITALIST society and free market economy the gap between "rich' and "poor" grows not because of the poor getting poorer but the rich getting richer and more people achieving the rich status.

So what do you propose as a fair "tax" on "rich" people?? 50% of their income? 70%??? 90??? What?

A graduated income tax is a cornerstone of Marxist tax theory. Congratulations...you're a communist!

You do know that EVERY time you lower the marginal tax rates the amount of money coming into the Government increases right? The problem is when the government doesn't spend responsibly. One thing I greatly dislike about President Bush, he isn't a fiscal conservative.

A true fiscal conservative wants lower taxes AND, probably most importantly, LOWER spending.

Blaming President Bush for CEO's making $50 - $150 million per year, and that the Bush administration fiscal policy is causing job loss is not only disengenuous, it is a completely moronic statement.

Clinton, with a Democrat controlled congress mind you, passed NAFTA. President Bush actually tried to protect our Steel industry from dumping by China et al, and the US was taken to the WTO and the WTO told us to stop the tarrifs. As much as I dislike the President's fiscal policy on spending, he has done a lot to protect our industry.

The current economic issues are the result of people speculating in oil, the housing market and so on, not because of any of the fiscal policies of our government.

Stu, I love you, man.

I tried to be gentle...I figure when your own side is bitch slapping you us "Compassionate Conservatives" should take it easy on you.

[jrnychick]

I have to put my 2 cents in here. The main reason why so many people in this country are in financial distress or ruin right now is that they do not know how to live within their means. I know MANY MANY people who have $25k + in credit card debt. Why? They always need more, bigger, better. They buy cars they can't really afford. They got arm mortgages so they could afford a bigger home. They didn't think about what would happen 5 years down the road. They didn't PLAN for the loss of a job and have money set aside. I can certainly understand that people get into a bit of a credit card crunch when 5 things break in their home at the same time. However, those people don't go without something else to pay off that credit card bill quickly. I know so many people who are just fiscally uneducated. They have $2k in a savings account, but carry over $1k in credit card debt from month to month. Why not just pay it off, and then live within their means?

We have a rental property with great tenants living in the house. They are super nice people. However, they struggle every month to pay the rent. Why? They made the choice to have 6 kids. They can't afford 2 kids. Should the government be bailing them out? They got themselves into a financial nightmare.

I think adults today honestly need to learn from the generations that came before us. My mother-in-law is a great example. She is technically retired; she's 72. She has a good chunk of money that will last her comfortably for the rest of her life. However, she still feels that she needs to work to have some money coming in. So she walks dogs. That woman is out there walking dogs no matter what the weather or how she feels. She had knee surgery and only took 2 days off. She doesn't expect anyone to give her handouts. What ever happened to people working hard to EARN the things they have? If everyone would stop whining and get up and take care of themselves, we would all be a lot better off.

[ohsherrie]

Why would I think otherwise? All I've read from most of the conservatives on here is that it's "root little pigs or die" or "let them eat cake" when it comes to the millions of people who have lost their livelihoods so that hundreds of CEOs and CFOs can make billions.

That's a load of bullshit.

No it absolutley is not. That's exactly what most of them are saying.

What we've said is people are responsible for their own livelihoods. That doesn't mean people are left to fend for themselves.......

How is that not the same thing?

..........but it's not the government's responsibility to do that for people. The government's responsibility is to get the hell out of the way so people CAN fend for themselves and to allow people to help others who can't do so.

Yes, people are responsible for their own livelihoods, but the government has caused them to not only lost those livelihoods, but lose them in such huge numbers that there are too many thousands of thousands of people who have NO PROSPECTS FOR OPPORTUNITIES to replace their former middle class lifestyles. They're earning much less and paying much less in taxes.

That's what my post was about.

Most of the conservatives on here are more worried about the amount of taxes they might pay than the economic disaster all of these job losses has created, so I wanted to know who they think are going to take up the slack for all of that middle class tax base that is being lost.

That must have been too hard to answer though because everybody went into attack mode instead.

You're the most closed-minded ass on the forum. I disagree vehemently with other folks like Deano, TNC, 7 Wishes, etc., and all of them are able to find some room for agreement and are more open-minded than you are.[/quote]

I've found nothing in most of what you say that my mind can realistically open to at this time, under the current economic and foreign policy conditions. All the Libertarian talk, though not without merit, is completely irrelevant at this time because the playing field is too unlevel economically and philosophically for enough people to be able to meet in the middle on the issues and form a viable Libertarian base.

[weatherman90]

Easy folks....the politics here is getting a bit much - especially when there is a POLITICAL FORUM. Yes?

Agreed - maybe a couple every now and then but there has been a ton lately.

[Wally_Hatchet]

You know, I'm a Democrat, but I'm sick of your blathering on. Why the hell don't you get a damn job and STFU!! You obviously aren't going to pick up anybody's slack.

[Rip Rokken]

I have to put my 2 cents in here. The main reason why so many people in this country are in financial distress or ruin right now is that they do not know how to live within their means. I know MANY MANY people who have $25k + in credit card debt. Why? They always need more, bigger, better. They buy cars they can't really afford. They got arm mortgages so they could afford a bigger home. They didn't think about what would happen 5 years down the road. They didn't PLAN for the loss of a job and have money set aside. I can certainly understand that people get into a bit of a credit card crunch when 5 things break in their home at the same time. However, those people don't go without something else to pay off that credit card bill quickly. I know so many people who are just fiscally uneducated. They have $2k in a savings account, but carry over $1k in credit card debt from month to month. Why not just pay it off, and then live within their means?

We have a rental property with great tenants living in the house. They are super nice people. However, they struggle every month to pay the rent. Why? They made the choice to have 6 kids. They can't afford 2 kids. Should the government be bailing them out? They got themselves into a financial nightmare.

I think adults today honestly need to learn from the generations that came before us. My mother-in-law is a great example. She is technically retired; she's 72. She has a good chunk of money that will last her comfortably for the rest of her life. However, she still feels that she needs to work to have some money coming in. So she walks dogs. That woman is out there walking dogs no matter what the weather or how she feels. She had knee surgery and only took 2 days off. She doesn't expect anyone to give her handouts. What ever happened to people working hard to EARN the things they have? If everyone would stop whining and get up and take care of themselves, we would all be a lot better off.

Hey, jrnychick -- you hit it right on the head. This is way much more about personal responsibility than it is about government policy, and the latter should never be used to make up for a lack in the former. People who think otherwise are misguided. Kudos to your mother-in-law, by the way.

Here's a story for ya... my dad has some rental property, and rented out an apartment to a black family of about 6 who were political refugees from some African nation (I forget where). They had literally been going from village to village trying to flee their enemies until they escaped and made it to the U.S. with nothing but the clothes on their back. A Catholic charity helped them find a place to stay and paid their first few months of rent to get them started. So here they are, living in a cheap apartment, getting jobs and learning how to make their way in a new country. They obviously were living day by day, but always paid the rent on time, and were reliable tenants. So a year passes and this guy tells my dad that he has saved some money and would like to invest it, but needed some advice on how best to do so. My dad of course was very hesitant with advice, but at least wanted to point the guy in the right direction toward people who could better help him. He was also naturally skeptical that the guy could have saved any significant amount, I mean, being here a year with a wife and 4 kids to support. So he asked how much the guy now had to work with... $25,000.00.

Goes to show you how screwed up our mentality is here in America, right? We all could do the same if we quit letting our sickened culture dictate our behavior, and quit looking for the government for solutions.

I work very hard for what I have, and like to personally decide who I want to help with it. It's not the government's place to steal an unfair chunk of my income to subsidize the lives of lazy-ass people who by their own choice decide not to participate in our way of life here, or who thru their own foolishness try to "keep up with the Joneses" when their income can't sustain it. Unfortuantely, there is no cure for "stupid" in this country.

Ohsherrie, you need to be deprogrammed from all that propoganda you regularly digest...

[Memorex]

Historically, lowering taxes increases revenue. This includes the last round of "Bush" tax cuts.

I'm all for helping the human race and all for paying my fair share. But if I look at it realistically and it's clearly evident that lowering taxes really does raise federal revenue, then I don't know why people continue to fight about it.