My issues with Obama

[Wally_Hatchet]

[conversationpc]

That's a little over the top and unfair.

[Saint John]

That's a little over the top and unfair.

That's the whole point, Dave!

[Eric]

You, sir, are an ignoramus. Come join us in the civilized world. This is one of the most ignorant positions I have ever heard postulated anywhere. Americans will be just as safe if we stick to standards employed by almost every progressive government anywhere. Disgusting..

9-11 changed things. I feel different about this kinda of stuff since then. I just don't want that to happen again. I also don't think some of things called torture are exactly torture...and if we get info out of these people trying to kill us, I gotta look the other way. They don't belong to a country...its hard to define some of this stuff.

Actually, Obama is the preferred candidate of more Jews than McCain.

I said Israel. Stay on topic.

Right. The more personal debt individuals amass, the better off the economy is. Come on. At a certain point, delinquents will stop paying and file bankruptcy because they can't even afford the interest payments.

I understand where you are coming from, but I just can't see rewarding bad behavior. Its a quandry.....I feel the same about the subprime mess. I think people ought to understand what an adjustable rate is, and make better decisions. If they can't afford the house...they lose the house. It seems fair?

You're misstating his position. He is talking about the Freedom of Information Act...we don't need another lying Republican with bullshit stories about yellow cake from the Niger.

I'll accept I misunderstood his position with regards to this...

[Eric]

The hyper-aggressive smear campaigns headed by the NRA have eliminated waiting lists, national registries, and background checks. Eric, do you really need an AK-47 to take down Thumper or Bambi? REGULATE WHO BUYS GUNS...MANDATORY BACKGROUND CHECKS...NATIONAL REGISTRY. THAT will help solve a LOT of problems.

Fine.....agreed....but I don't want to hear about how bad they are without also hearing how bad the fucks are using them on each other and us. It pisses me off.

What's this? A Republican concerned about the health care crisis in America? MINORITIES ARE THE PEOPLE WHO CAN LEAST AFFORD HEALTH CARE BECAUSE OF THEIR INCOME LEVELS. But instead of covering them for medically necessary procedures, they amass tens of thousands of dollars in debt. And hospitals cannot legally refuse to treat someone, so the taxpayers wind up footing the bill in the long term. You have NO chance of fucking with me on health care issues. I worked in health care administration for many years.You "think" choices will fix cost? Well, my friend, since Bush took office, health care premiums have MORE THAN DOUBLED. Wrong. Another angle on the horrendous "trickle-down" theory that DOES NOT WORK. Right, let the drug companies continue to exploit people for risky experimental procedures, and give them a free pass to continue to lie. The FDA serves no other purpose than to kiss the ass of the Republican electorate and constituency at this point, anyway. You offer no reasons as to WHY insurance companies should continue to be able to deny medically necessary procedures? That is only the tip of the iceberg. You are WAY OFF here, Eric.

Yeah...I want our health care ISSUES fixed..what does politics have to do with that? Okay....first, stop sounding like Obama and worrying about Minorities first.....I'm getting real sick of that shit. OH..poor minorities. Fuck that. We're all equal...step it up. Second, by choices I mean more choices on type of health care plans....types of tax breaks associated with them...etc. For example, offer more basic/emergency coverage plans for young people, so they don't have to choose between some package coverage everything including gym membershipos..or having nothing. I realize different areas of the country have different plans, but here in Upstate, there are not enough basic plans for someone who is lower middle class. And I'll stand by sticking up for Pharmaceuticals all day long. They have tremendous costs bringing (or trying to bring) a drug to market. These drugs make our lives better. Spouting off at them sounds whiney. Things cost money. I have a health care plan I wrote as a column for a local paper that I will PM you. One idea I really want to see happen is for Health Insurance to have some of the benefits and characteristics of an investment product like whole life insurance.

Right, communism. You're thinking of a dictatorship or an autocracy. And I do agree with you in principle that companies should not be required to participate, BUT...you have to start somewhere. It's better than no change at all. Studies indicate that the average American will actually save money in the long term if Universal Health Care came to fruition. I want the best for my fellow man and fellow American, and if that means I have to make small sacrifices in the short term to ensure even the poorest receive the best available treatment, so be it. This is the difference between an empathetic Democrat and a self-serving Republican.

Studies also indicate the opposite. According to even the most conservative estimates the average American costs $7,000/year to insure. If you multiply that by 300 million folks you have 2 trillon dollars a year. This is absurd. We can't afford that. And why would the Government run things better...what have they ever run better? Do you want 20% sales tax on everything? What do you think will happen to our economy? You may sound like you have a big heart here...but you need to balance having a big heart and having a big brain. Universal Health car would destroy this country. I believe the number is 27% of the un-insured have household incomes above $50,000. Some people don't want it. Others aren't willing to work for it. So..what we need to do is get the people who want and are willing to work for it - decent and affordable coverage. Universal is not the answer.

They're losing SOME battles. AQ is now larger than it ever has been and has more power than ever before. Afghanistan is falling apart, and we cannot maintain the troop surge indefinitely. Plus, the only reason the "surge" is working is that the United States has "befriended" Sunnis throughout Iraq.

We haven't been attacked again. If we do get attacked again....I'm wrong. Plain and simple.

[ohsherrie]

Eric,

If I were to answer you issue by issue my answers would be so similar to Daniel's and TNC's that it would be too redundant for me to type and for anyone to read.

I have to say though that I'm very surprised at some of the things you believe. Somehow, even though I've always known you were very right wing, I always thought of you as being more open minded and better informed than your post makes you seem.

[conversationpc]

I have to say though that I'm very surprised at some of the things you believe. Somehow, even though I've always known you were very right wing, I always thought of you as being more open minded[b] and [b]better informed than your post makes you seem.

[Eric]

Eric,

If I were to answer you issue by issue my answers would be so similar to Daniel's and TNC's that it would be too redundant for me to type and for anyone to read.

I have to say though that I'm very surprised at some of the things you believe. Somehow, even though I've always known you were very right wing, I always thought of you as being more open minded and better informed than your post makes you seem.

Maybe you guys are the ones not informed? What makes you think you are 100% right? And I'm not very right wing....I'm actually not at all religious and my views on several topics such as Stem Cell research are extremely liberal. While I find partial birth abortion disgusting, I don't think abortion should be illegal. I agree that the war was bungled...I just don't agree that it was wrong, unjust or that we are now not winning and good things have happened. While I think the notion of MAN-MADE global warming is absurd, I do myself take energy consumption and recycling serious...more serious than the average person. I don't give W high marks...but the idea that he has done nothing well and is an idiot gives me a headache. And Obama...well he and his wife haven't been proud of anything America has done in their lifetimes..so why would I give him any respect at all? I believe people are responsible for themselves....not the government. Obama believes that the government is responsible for the people. We are polar opposites.

When you add up something like how much Universal Healthcare would cost this country....and see that it 2 trillion/year.....and you still think you're right...then you aren't living in the real world. Liberal theories are good...but they often don't apply to the real situations. Its warm and fuzzy to want everyone to have everything - but its not the way it works.

[conversationpc]

And why would the Government run things better...what have they ever run better?

But they will do a better job this time with universal healthcare.

And I'm not very right wing....I'm actually not at all religious and my views on several topics such as Stem Cell research are extremely liberal. While I find partial birth abortion disgusting, I don't think abortion should be illegal. I agree that the war was bungled...I just don't agree that it was wrong, unjust or that we are now not winning and good things have happened. While I think the notion of MAN-MADE global warming is absurd, I do myself take energy consumption and recycling serious...more serious than the average person. I don't give W high marks...but the idea that he has done nothing well and is an idiot gives me a headache.

Eric, it's called BDS (Bush Derangement Syndrome) and it is in evidence pretty often here on this board.

And Obama...well he and his wife haven't been proud of anything America has done in their lifetimes..so why would I give him any respect at all?

With all due respect on this one, Obama's wife was taken out of context.

[ohsherrie]

When you add up something like how much Universal Healthcare would cost this country....and see that it 2 trillion/year.

So a war that has accomplished nothing for the people of this country or that one was a better way to spend our tax money? Paying corporate welfare to companies that move jobs out of this country is a better use for the money?

I'd much rather see the money spent to benefit this country.

[Eric]

With all due respect on this one, Obama's wife was taken out of context.

Was she? Here was the quote:

"And let me tell you something -- for the first time in my adult lifetime, I am really proud of my country."

That turns my stomach....and I haven't heard either of them explain it.

I mean...in the last 40 years there was nothing to be proud of? Why are they even here then. Why would you live someplace that in 40 years has given you nothing to be proud of? I don't get it?

[Eric]

When you add up something like how much Universal Healthcare would cost this country....and see that it 2 trillion/year.

So a war that has accomplished nothing for the people of this country or that one was a better way to spend our tax money? Paying corporate welfare to companies that move jobs out of this country is a better use for the money?

I'd much rather see the money spent to benefit this country.

Accomplishments:
1) Al Qeada drawn into there...instead of here
2) Husseins all Gonzo
3) Khadafi given up weapons program
4) Sadamm not sponsoring terrorists groups like Hamas/Hezbollah anymore

Those 4 all lead to help us from not being attacked here again. And I don't KNOW I'm right about this...Its my gut based on the information available.

And I don't, nor have I said, that I don't have a problem with the outsourcing of jobs....the way it has been conducted, etc.

[Barb]

With all due respect on this one, Obama's wife was taken out of context.

Then she should come out and say that and clarify what she meant. All she has to do is say that it was a poor choice of words and that she did mean it in the way it's being taken. I'm guessing she didn't. However, it is pretty arrogant of her to think she doesn't have to address it at all.

[conversationpc]

With all due respect on this one, Obama's wife was taken out of context.

Then she should come out and say that and clarify what she meant. All she has to do is say that it was a poor choice of words and that she did mean it in the way it's being taken. I'm guessing she didn't. However, it is pretty arrogant of her to think she doesn't have to address it at all.

I heard a clip of her explaining it somewhere. Can't remember where, though.

[Barb]

With all due respect on this one, Obama's wife was taken out of context.

Then she should come out and say that and clarify what she meant. All she has to do is say that it was a poor choice of words and that she did mean it in the way it's being taken. I'm guessing she didn't. However, it is pretty arrogant of her to think she doesn't have to address it at all.

I heard a clip of her explaining it somewhere. Can't remember where, though.

If she did, good on her. That kind of arrogance is unbecoming of a first lady...

[The_Noble_Cause]

I heard Mrs. Obama's remarks and I did not think they were yanked out of context at all.
I don't like comatose rally-around-the-flag jingoism, but to me her words were unfortunate and insulting.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Accomplishments:
1) Al Qeada drawn into there...instead of here

Tell that to the soot-colored ash heap of subway bombing victims in England and Spain.
Are you really so fucking stupid as to believe that perpetrators of terrorism face a daily binary choice between only Iraq and only the US?

3) Khadafi given up weapons program

Wrong. That was brought about via diplomacy started under Clinton.
Same deal with N. Korea.
North Korea agreed to freeze its production of plutonium on account of re-started diplomatic talks, not bone-headed preemption.

[RedWingFan]

Same deal with N. Korea.
North Korea agreed to freeze its production of plutonium on account of re-started diplomatic talks, not bone-headed preemption.

How did North Korea get that plutonium in the first place? By bone-headed diplomatic talks. Clinton gave it to them.

[Saint John]

Quoted from The New York Times:

"Libya's actions came after nine months of secret diplomacy, beginning with an overture from Colonel Qaddafi to London and Washington just as the invasion of Iraq was beginning." Translation-The fucker was scared shitless.

[frfksakes]

Okay - here is where I have an issue with him: (My comments follow)

Ok, I was totally looking for good reasons to not support him, but your list has actually eased some fears, lol.

What kills me is the free pass that Obama is getting from his groupies in the media. (God help us when Fox news is the voice of reason.)

They overlook everything the least bit unsavory about Obama, and pick Hillary to death.

Like when Obama slams everyone for taking money form lobbyists and Pacs, he conveniently leaves out that up until recently, he has taken MILLIONS from not only them, but also from several very shady Chicago business people.

The way he claims to be above it all, but he's really just a politician like the rest of them, who’ll say and do what is nec to get elected. The way he's flipped on many issues, and has misrepresented things HE's said and done, and things Hillary's said and done.

Also, his Pastor, Reverend Jeremiah Wright, who he is extremely close with, actually went to Tripoli with Louis Farrakhan to visit Muammar Gadaff.

Wright also praised highly, gave some award to, and put Farrakan on the cover of his church magazine.

Wright has also done some great things in his community, and maybe the above doesn’t mean much. But Farrakhan is a scary mofo, and I’d like to know Obama’s take on all of this.

Maybe Obama really IS the best choice. But we don’t really know because the media has refused to ask any hard questions of him. Kick the tires a little bit.

They just decided they liked him over Hillary, and it feels like we’re voting for the
‘American Idol President.’

At least your list gives me hope about him, lol.

Thanks!!!

The unorthodox pastor of Trinity church is the Reverend Jeremiah Wright, who is refusing all interviews. He married Barack and Michelle Obama and baptised their two daughters. He is already attracting attention on right-wing websites for describing the September 11 attacks as a “wake-up call” to America for ignoring the concerns of “people of colour”, and for claiming that Americans “believe in white supremacy and black inferiority . . . more than we believe in God”.
Wright travelled to meet Muammar Gadaffi, the Libyan leader, in the 1980s with Louis Farrakhan, the black supremacist leader of the Nation of Islam, and subscribes to the “Black Values System”, which preaches self-reliance but claims “middle-classness” is ensnaring blacks.
“When [Obama’s] enemies find out that in 1984 I went to Tripoli to visit Colonel Gadaffi with Farrakhan, a lot of his Jewish support will dry up quicker than a snowball in hell,” Wright once said.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 177684.ece

[The_Noble_Cause]

Quoted from The New York Times:

"Libya's actions came after nine months of secret diplomacy, beginning with an overture from Colonel Qaddafi to London and Washington just as the invasion of Iraq was beginning." Translation-The fucker was scared shitless.

Bush's policies might have spooked him. Sure. They scare the shit out of alot of people. Me included.
That does little to eradicate the fact that Libya had been desperate to rejoin the international community for sometime, and that peace was ultimately brought about thru diplomacy, not neo-imperialistic chest-beating.
Can't polish a foreign policy turd, fellas!

[Voyager]

Bush's policies might have spooked him. Sure. They scare the shit out of alot of people. Me included.

Not me.

Let me guess - you're either an heir to an oil company tycoon or a Haliburton employee?

[Voyager]

[Eric]

Accomplishments:
1) Al Qeada drawn into there...instead of here

Tell that to the soot-colored ash heap of subway bombing victims in England and Spain.
Are you really so fucking stupid as to believe that perpetrators of terrorism face a daily binary choice between only Iraq and only the US?

3) Khadafi given up weapons program

Wrong. That was brought about via diplomacy started under Clinton.
Same deal with N. Korea.
North Korea agreed to freeze its production of plutonium on account of re-started diplomatic talks, not bone-headed preemption.

We have not been attacked HERE again. Why is that? I don't know for sure and either do you. It could be because thy are engaged over there instead of here.

You are WRONG. Our invasion of Iraq forced his hand.

Call me stupid and then you're the one wrong...Pfffffffffffff

[The_Noble_Cause]

We have not been attacked HERE again. Why is that? I don't know for sure and either do you. It could be because thy are engaged over there instead of here.

You can't prove a negative.
Is that really the crown jewel of the Bush legacy and Gingrich-ushered Conservative reign?
A silent hope and a prayer that Bush's subversion of US law has kept us all safe?
And what of the human toll - are our soldiers to be deployed ad infinitum just to satisfy your peace of mind?

You are WRONG. Our invasion of Iraq forced his hand.

LOL.
Why is the defense of Iraq always some tangential consequence unrelated to the actual occupation itself (Iran. Libya. Free elections in Palestine. etc.)
Keep whistling in the dark, fuckhole.

[scarygirl]

And why would the Government run things better...what have they ever run better?

But they will do a better job this time with universal healthcare.

And I'm not very right wing....I'm actually not at all religious and my views on several topics such as Stem Cell research are extremely liberal. While I find partial birth abortion disgusting, I don't think abortion should be illegal. I agree that the war was bungled...I just don't agree that it was wrong, unjust or that we are now not winning and good things have happened. While I think the notion of MAN-MADE global warming is absurd, I do myself take energy consumption and recycling serious...more serious than the average person. I don't give W high marks...but the idea that he has done nothing well and is an idiot gives me a headache.

Eric, it's called BDS (Bush Derangement Syndrome) and it is in evidence pretty often here on this board.

And Obama...well he and his wife haven't been proud of anything America has done in their lifetimes..so why would I give him any respect at all?

With all due respect on this one, Obama's wife was taken out of context.

She was, and I'm not a supporter.

[Eric]

We have not been attacked HERE again. Why is that? I don't know for sure and either do you. It could be because thy are engaged over there instead of here.

You can't prove a negative.
Is that really the crown jewel of the Bush legacy and Gingrich-ushered Conservative reign?
A silent hope and a prayer that Bush's subversion of US law has kept us all safe?
And what of the human toll - are our soldiers to be deployed ad infinitum just to satisfy your peace of mind?

I don't know. I'm glad I'm not the President and have to make those types of decisions.

[ohsherrie]

Eric, it's called BDS (Bush Derangement Syndrome) and it is in evidence pretty often here on this board.

Damned right. This board is full of deranged Bush apologists.

[EightyRock]

Anyone happen to catch any of the State of the Black Union thing on TV? Obama was asked to speak and he declined, stating that he had to campaign. He said he would send his wife, though, and they said no thanks. They are not pissed at him. Hillary, on the other hand, is going to go. It appears they are going to back her into a corner about the super delegates to say she is in favor of the popular vote and the delegates would not be the fair way for her to end up in office. Can you imagine if she snubbed them like Obama did? They'd be outraged.
If Obama wins the popular vote and the super delegates vote for Hillary, expect the biggest riots you've ever seen in your lifetime. Listening to this today, they think Obama will cure all their problems and they will be beyond pissed if he doesn't get in the White House.

Sorry, I don't get what anybody sees in Obama. Hillary is more qualified, already knows all the leaders of these other countries and I don't believe she will pander nearly as much to all the illegals as Obama plans to do. Obama wil have ten times as many social programs in the works as Clinton, not to mention all the cash he has probably promised Oprah that he'll send to Africa. He's already talking about helping Chavez, too.

I don't see a candidate in either party that is worth a damn or is concerned about fixing priority one....illegal immigration and what it is doing to this country. I picked up my newspaper today and saw a picture of 5 Mexicans just arrested for sale of a shit-load of coke. People better wake the hell up and quit supporting these officials that are pandering to the illegals, unless you like the idea of sleeping with an AK47 at your side.

[ohsherrie]

EightyRock, I wish you didn't make so much sense. There is a post on this board somewhere in which I said Obama would get elected for the same reasons that OJ is a free murderer.

The bigger problem though is that we only have two realistic choices. Only the people can change that.

There is nobody running who represents everything that I believe, but I'll vote for Obama if he gets the nomination because it's a vote against what I consider to be the more destructive alternative for the future of this country.

That shouldn't be the only reason for anyone to vote, but if we don't vote we have no voice at all.

Maybe the high voter turnout in the primaries is an indication that people are ready to use their voice and that voice may eventually be taught a new tune.