Gotta love the Caveman

[Arkansas]

Dude's a tool and Elson's a better producer for Journey.

After Generations? Not a chance.

Yeah because Escape and Frontiers were terrible Journey albums, right?

Don't forget Mike Stone's contributions to those recordings...Anyone expecting a Frontiers sounding production at the hands of only Kevin Elson without Mike producing will be unpleasantly surprised. Not saying Kevin doesn't do amazing work, but Generations sounded like ass, and I've never really heard anything else he's produced on his own.

Bingo! Mike Stone did it for Journey. Frontiers just road on the coattails of Escape.
Btw, Cain's writing is what really did it for Journey then.


later~

[StyxCollector]

Time is the key. There is no longer the patience required to craft the song sonically. Everyone seems to think their bedroom is as good as a studio control room and that Pro -Tools and a MAC sound as good as a Neve and a Studer running 30 ips DOLBY SR. As long as you're listening to an iPod and MP3s, they're not too far off..

So true and so sad. There is a whole generation who think music is supposed to sound like the shit that comes out of their iPod.

It's a lot of things. AlienC hit on some of it - a lot of bedroom musicians think they can record, mix, and master on their own computer. Then the trend to have overly squashed and loud mastering (and yes, I know radio mixes were compressed "back in the day"). Add to it lossy music - which is fine on the go - but the quality of sonics suffers.

Having said that, the best production, all analog signal path, good mastering, nice mixes, etc., can't polish a turd of a song.

It shouldn't necessarily take 11 months to record an album (but it can), nor should it necessarily be done in 11 hours, either. I think technology has made many musicians lazy. I'll write a riff and use cut and paste. Yay. (see: Lenny Kravitz "Fly Away")

Although there is one thing the iPod generation is bringing back: the single. The focus is shifting away from albums. That's not necessarily a bad thing. A download from iTunes is akin to the old 45s (so-to-speak).

For those who really think MP3 and other lossy formats are as good as the original source, look at this:
http://www.stereophile.com/features/308mp3cd/

With bandwidth being more common, I hope that lossless downloads at least solve some of the quality issues ... but garbage in, garbage out.

[TerryB]

Allen,

What do you believe would be the cause for the lack of clarity or crispness in the TBF or Arrival mix? Possibly intended that way or bad mastering? I think you were still around on Arrival.
I guess, I should clarify and say that the sound in my opinion is not up to snuff as these things are subjective. For comparison, Peter Cetera's One Clear Voice recording, done about the same time as TBF, sounds absolutely gorgeous to my ears. It sounds like a million bucks.

I will go on record and somewhat defend the IPOD. I respect those Stereophile guys a ton, but with the higher bit rates (320 Kbs and above) on AAC, you can get decent sound audio and MOST people would not be able to tell the difference between the uncompressed version and one ripped at 320 Kbs AAC. Heck, considering what most people have for speakers in their houses, cars or even use for headphones, compression almost is a moot point anyway.
I am not defending crappy production. It ticks me off when I pick up a CD and find the mix to be junk especially when it's a major label release (Need To Breathe on Atlantic Records as one recent example). I want to note that I rarely purchase music in download form...I prefer to buy the CD and rip my own so I can get the higher bit rates.

TerryB

[brywool]

I would think a lot of it is digital recording. It just doesn't have the warmth of analog.

[STORY_TELLER]

I would think a lot of it is digital recording. It just doesn't have the warmth of analog.

I thought the same thing until I saw this:
http://www.digidesign.com/index.cfm?lan ... emid=25669

Then I got to wondering, is it artistic choices when using digital that yields that lack of warmth? Clearly it's possible to achieve the same analog sound with pro tools, so I wonder if it's the mixer's choices that give us this over produced feeling? Where we hear so much detail in the instrumentals. We hear the drums, we hear the guitar, we hear the bass, etc. etc. whereas with classic analog, we just hear the song. What do you think?

[lparn]

We rabid psychos supply the cash that's going to send his kid to college.

good point and all of Neal;s as well.
it might not be "fun" to deal with the "fans" especially considering some of the things and choices the band has made in the last 2 years, partially why some are not planning to buy this cd or package.

[AlienC]

Allen,

What do you believe would be the cause for the lack of clarity or crispness in the TBF or Arrival mix? Possibly intended that way or bad mastering? I think you were still around on Arrival.
I guess, I should clarify and say that the sound in my opinion is not up to snuff as these things are subjective. For comparison, Peter Cetera's One Clear Voice recording, done about the same time as TBF, sounds absolutely gorgeous to my ears. It sounds like a million bucks.

I will go on record and somewhat defend the IPOD. I respect those Stereophile guys a ton, but with the higher bit rates (320 Kbs and above) on AAC, you can get decent sound audio and MOST people would not be able to tell the difference between the uncompressed version and one ripped at 320 Kbs AAC. Heck, considering what most people have for speakers in their houses, cars or even use for headphones, compression almost is a moot point anyway.
I am not defending crappy production. It ticks me off when I pick up a CD and find the mix to be junk especially when it's a major label release (Need To Breathe on Atlantic Records as one recent example). I want to note that I rarely purchase music in download form...I prefer to buy the CD and rip my own so I can get the higher bit rates.

TerryB

I can only assume that it went that way at mastering and beyond. What i heard was certainly 'snappy', but after living with it for over two years , by the time it came out on CD, my references had changed.
As for anydisdain about "Ipods" or more accurately MP3's in general, the fact that there can be so many variables in place when someone rips a song and it gets out there is what my objection is. One really has no way of knowing at what rate, any effects added in ripping or what the source was at the original rip.

It's just something to bitch about. Doesn't change anything. It's more akin to the gripe when AM Radio was supplanted by FM. AM stations thought they were safe because FM was so expensive to transmit at great distance.
The fact that AM radio had a fraction of the fidelity for the same Watt of RF power was lost on them. But when was the last time you listened to music on an AM station? oops
BIG RADIO INC. was able to make the transition from format to format and still retain commercial viability. Not so sure about BIG MUSIC INC.

[lparn]

Rabid and psychotic?

In my real life I'm a married (30 years) mother of three (27, 24, and 18 years), a professional registered nurse (30 years) who has returned to college with the goal of a PhD to become a nursing professor. I deal with life-and-death situations every day.

I also am passionate about my music, of which Journey has been a part for 23 years. I have had the means and the time to attend a minimum of 30 Journey concerts since 1987 (Two with Perry, one with JSS and the rest with Augeri), many of them Five-Star packages.

My point? Journey's fans are not lunatics or psychotics. They are hard-working people with lives and families who have appreciated what Journey has added to their lives.

For those of us on the precipice of actually giving Arnel a chance (and I think he's great) as a Journey front man, being referred to as rabid and psychotic does not exactly endear us to your employers. Way to go Caveman. Did that description come from a "Higher Place"?

Hey Neal - if you are reading, please understand that you aren't losing teeny-bopping, couch potato, no-life losers as fans.

You are losing me and those of my MR colleagues who really think that YOU think we are garbage.

Boy, if this doesn't say a lot about what the band thinks of us, nothing does.

Sorry, but I'm sick of being called a loon or feeling like a second class citizen because I haven't quite yet jumped on the latest Journey incarnation. This doesn't help matters.

Thank god Arnel can sing, because he may be the only thing that gets me back....

You make alot of really valid points.
psychotic and rabid????????????? not fun dealing with???????????
maybe losing one or two fans is not an issue to them, howver I agree. we are hard working people and
with families and responsibilities. If not joining in and agreeing with every decision and way that they handled things
makes people psychotic or rabid it is even more obvious that the band does not care what we think or feel.
I also had the means to attend quite a few shows many with SA and that were 5 star packages, while I do not nor did I then think it made me more special or a better fan, it enhanced my concert experience and I did not have to hassle with tm to obtain decent seats as I too have a full time job that prevents me from being able to do that.
It upsets and angers me that they have handled things the way they have and made the decisions that they have made.
After the past 8 years of asking for a dvd and classic rerecording with SA they choose NOW?! they
sidelined him with the 6-8 month tours, 3 hour shows where he was not singing for 45 minutes and booking tours with no cd to promote even though he is still not well, and hurrying through a cd so they could tour, cut the new songs and play the dd to make money and then they blame and trash him for everything. to release a dvd and a cd of classic songs now is crazy and a slap in the face to him and to us that support him.
Then they call us rabid and psychotic. If they did not think the people that support and like SA were not going to say anything or be upset or angry then they really don;t care what we think or feel. They do not get what the music means to us. at least SA did and I hope he is able to see that and how many people really do support him when we hear from him again.
Whether people liked him or not he brought alot of people back to this band and to the music.
without him being a part of it and the band not caring what we really think, which with the events of the past 2 years is more than obvious I cannot support this.
Rabid and psychotic???? how insulting to people that come to see you, buy your music and support you.

[The_Noble_Cause]

From his new diary update -

Flew into New York Tuesday night (March 4th) for a mastering session with mastering legend George Marino, who did a fabulous job with the new Journey album. It sounds fabulous - rich and lush and hi-fi - everything (and more) than you'd expect from Journey. I am seriously proud of this and really look forward to people hearing it. Journey do have some of the more psychotic and rabid internet fans, and it's not always fun dealing with them - but they know what they like, and I am expecting them to be very happily surprised! This guy has a set of pipes..... and the whole band is playing fantastically!

Amen Kev!

Didn't Kalodner say practically the same thing back when u interviewed him?

[Andrew]

From his new diary update -

Flew into New York Tuesday night (March 4th) for a mastering session with mastering legend George Marino, who did a fabulous job with the new Journey album. It sounds fabulous - rich and lush and hi-fi - everything (and more) than you'd expect from Journey. I am seriously proud of this and really look forward to people hearing it. Journey do have some of the more psychotic and rabid internet fans, and it's not always fun dealing with them - but they know what they like, and I am expecting them to be very happily surprised! This guy has a set of pipes..... and the whole band is playing fantastically!

Amen Kev!

Didn't Kalodner say practically the same thing back when u interviewed him?

Yes